I must admit though that I'm a little perplexed by your statement. I don't think it is appropriate to take into consideration the WC3 version. Marking it down because it feels like the original doesn't make sense to me. Most SC2 players have never tried WC3. The expression "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind. In my humble opinion, it should solely be rated on its merits as a SC2 map.
I agree with this. I haven't played the SC2 edit of his map, I still play most of my custom maps on WC3. On WC3 it is a very unique TD/TW combo. With less variety on SC2, I would assume that would make it stick out even more above the competition. I can understand adding a comment to a rating saying "It has already been done, by the same guy" but it should not change the game rating. Game ratings are intended to tell potential players the best and worst parts of a game. Players aren't going to care if the editor has his work cut out for him because he was using an idea he already had.
I guess everyone reviews in their own way though. Some people only care about eye candy, and a 1/5 on visuals is worse than a 1/5 on gameplay. Other people are very happy with 5/5 gameplay, with a simple terrain, no imports, basic spells; but replayability.
Uploaded a video of the item system I got going on. Just the weapons so far; there will be many more. Again, the video is mostly showing off the system.
I have a question on the topic of the "arcade" that is yet to be answered. I asked it on the battle.net forums and it was overlooked. I would assume what the answer is, but I would like to make sure:
The map maker is the one who gets to decide if he wants to sell a game for cash, correct? Blizzard doesn't just take a map from the top of the list and say "People like this, we can profit from it."
Equally, does a game need a certain level of popularity in order to be put on the marketplace? to keep people from putting blank maps on there for cheap; hoping that someone purchases it by accident? Mainly, is there a way to prevent the marketplace from being flooded by garbage?
also, for people too lazy to read that post; or search it well; the best thing blizzard is doing to remedy to popularity system is raising maps that have had people sitting in the lobby for a while up the queue list. Not amazing; but it means that if you want to play an unpopular game, there is a chance to if you feel like sitting in the lobby a while.
the problem I do see with that though, would be if a bot could be made to sit in a games lobby until it fills, then leave the lobby. This would be the equal of bot hosting, and if abused could cause terrible games to sit at the top of the lobby list.
As the topic has changed to "teams" I do wonder...
I have never had another person directly help with my map. The biggest barrier for me is that; while I am working on something, if there is a problem, I know exactly how I triggered everything, everything I changed in the data editor, and every doodad I placed. I can easily track down a problem. Or even, if I were to want to change a system around. If someone else implemented it with all of their variables, I would need to study the whole thing for a while before I could safely dismantle it and recreate something that could do the same thing.
It just seems like it would take entirely too much faith in another person to be on the same page as you and work the same way you would to accomplish something.
You "team players" do you ever run into anything like that? or is it usually broken up so no one is actually touching someone else's work? One guy makes units, one guy makes abilities, one guy makes the terrain, another makes triggers? Which then would seem less like a "team" and more like an "assembly line"
What works best for me, is getting up a couple of hours before I will ever have to do anything, and putting a couple of hours in. Silence and coffee. Usually, if I have to grind something out, like 10 new heroes, 30 new items, ect; I do it at night, after work, when my brain isn't working. Turn on the t.v. and take 3 times the time it should to complete something. Progress is progress though.
As said above, if you can stick with it until it is playable, balance isn't too difficult. People will play it and balance it for you.
I worked on Custom Hero Arena for WC3 for 3 years, on and off. It had 3 "final" points. But something always came up and I added a lot, changed a lot, remade the entire game from scratch at one point. For about a year though, it was averaging 5000 hours a day play time, and it was the players who balanced it; which made it more popular. A perpetual scheme.
Random people thinking you for your map will give you a lot of juice to keep working.
The only thing worse than that "completely broad advice" is the "advice from a guy who is just guessing".
Usually, when I come to the point of posting a question (here or the hive) it is because I have spent an hour staring at something trying to figure it out. I will post of a half-wall of text showing exactly what I did and how it didn't work.
More times than not I get "why are you doing that anyway?" "you should go through all of your triggers and make sure it is right" (with a trigger posted). OR, I love when I get "you should just set everything to a variable, and run a loop, checking each variable, and then do actions based on the variables."
Sometimes any one of those thoughts might work. If I take a completely new look on the project, I have been known to scrap all of my work at hand, and start over with a much more complicated system that will look/feel smoother for the player. Often times, I have having a problem and even a rude answer that is an answer would be nice.
In defense of the people who make broad replies in an honest effort to help; a lot of questions are broad, and there are multiple ways to do things. It just feels like there are a lot of "fallback +1" answers that every question gets 3-4 of.
I got the system for hero creation and ability picking all set up. there is a video in my OP. There wil of course be many more abilities and heroes added, this is simply a video of the working system.
Title says it. Something I have never encountered is a "help, I make bad words" thread, and there really should be a lot of them. It is annoying from a players standpoint, to have no idea what this tooltip is trying to say; even worse, when people giggle at your wording.
This is mostly aimed at people who don't speak English as a first language. If you have a lot of text in your map and are worried about your wording, I can give you a hand. If it is just a few things, post them here and myself, or I;m sure others, will gladly offer variations of saying the same thing to better fit your context.
If anyone has a big project with a lot of wording to go through, contact me and I can turn it into a week long process for myself, or something.
I had a long debate in my head about having a % armor versus a solid armor. In CHA for WC3, the upper tier of players always knew which was better to get. every 30 armor was 100% more EHP. Spell damage, like most WC3 games was % based, but gained from items, and only a single skill. Trying to find a healthy balance between the 4 was difficult. It was also difficult for a player to maintain strengths and defenses in all 4 fields. My hope is that allowing armor to be a set value and counter both spell and attack damage, to take a little of the brain work out of it.
EHP can no longer be a "known, precalculated" value; but an armor/health ratio will always be valid. if you are going to be attacked more than 20 times, a single point of armor will go farther than vitality. 100 vitality is only 2000 HP, 100 strength is 100 damage, that is 20 attacks; with no armor. With 20 armor, that is 25 attacks. you would also have to take into account your opponents spell damage. if they are mostly spell damage and no attack, vitality is a much better choice.
I really hope the armor system can balance itself out. Same as all the stats really. It is very each to change any stat, so if something like "Speed" proves too strong, I can simply reduce the gains per point to the point that it is only worth it in small amounts; rather than being able to mass it.
"game Mechanics and heroes" are taken out of the equation for this game. Well, what best I can. Range and base attack time are the only things that change on heroes. .05 BAT increase for every 1 range; a max range of 6. It is my goal that everything in the game is decided by the player's choices, not the game. that is what gives a game replayability. Well, that and a fair level of balance that will make it so every player doesn't make the same choices. The biggest problem with allowing players to make whatever they want is that someone will always find a "best". If a game can be made more about "who plays the best" well then... that is a damn good game! *high hopes
thanks for commenting ^_^
Also, just to update, I overcame an "editor glitch" with tooltips, and am back at a fast pace. ETA on a video walkthrough is the same.
I have been working to get the skill selection in place. Honestly, it seems as though tooltips are currently the most time consuming thing. Anyone ever try to make dynamic tooltips the levelable abilities? Silly is what they are.
My goal is to have the hero/ability/stats seclection intro all set up within a week. That is of course with only a few types of skills for each skill slot. Enough to have the system in place and testable.
I will upload a youtube video once I have it set up.
<<I do not have Skype, I have always used Ventrillo. If you don't have Vent, I will download Skype. Are you free tomorrow (Friday), around 3-5 your time? I'm on my way out to work and wont be back until it is like 2-3 AM for you.
I am not too interested in voice acting; but I noticed you are from Europe and using the English language.
I majored in English in college and, without intended to insult you in any way, would like to offer my services in enhancing your phrasing to best suit your needs. That is, using proper tense, the type of words one might expect to hear from a military commander, and offering various attitudes that might work well with various texts.
Just offering the service if you feel it might be helpful.
Sadly, I occasionally read up on this project. Know in advance that I have never liked DOTA, or DOTA copycat maps. I do however understand what makes maps popular.
Above it is suggested that Blizzards DOTA is gearing more towards a chess game. Teamwork, communication, plans, ect. You are going to have to assume they will have their bases covered.
Why type of player do games like that bring in? Team players. Usually older players. Strategy players, who like to stay 5-6 moves ahead.
If you were to make a hero arena based DOTA (like allstars) then you are geared towards what? Personal accomplishments. Kill streaks. Denying. team carry builds, ect.
What type of player do games like that bring in? Elitists, younger players, players who only need to stay 1 step ahead.
If you compare the player types above, it is clear to see that two games like those, do not advertise to the same types of players. It wouldn't really be competition between the game, more as alternatives, to suit the style of play of players.
I have had a lot of comments on the stats system, and it possibly being over complicated, so, I have a write up on it, that I have been universally using:
Why maxing a single stat is bad:
Maxing Damage:
If you max out any single stat (damage, spell damage) then you are entirely too weak to attacks. Keep in mind, your level is going to be based in large part to how many creeps you can kill; while winning the game is based in how many players you can kill. If you go alllll spell damage, a player can simply pump a level of vitality (300 HP, vs 30 spell damage) and survive that initial spell damage blast, then 1 shot the guy who is going pure spell damage. They could also go high constitution, so that while the "nuke" is on cooldown, they regenerate a lot of life.
Going high armor/life/constitution so you never take damage:
Sounds good on paper; but just the opposite of the above, you will never deal damage. If you cannot kill creeps, then you cannot level. Without leveling you dont get more stats and items.
"Balanced" build types:
If you wanted to be a glass cannon that was actually viable to play, you would need spell damage, intelligence, constitution, a hint of armor, and some good movespeed. Spell damage obviously makes your spells hit harder. You need intelligence so that you can cast more than 1 spell before needing to run back to base and heal. constitution will regenerate your life and mana while in the field, to minimalize a need to return to base. You need enough armor that ranged creeps arent going to kill you before you kill the spawn. Movement speed is very important to dodging creeps and players who try to kill you; and also, for killing other players in the field.
"Alright, so, casters seem pretty bad, if I need to do all that work just to use a spell, I think going melee meatbag is a great idea"
This is how many people like to play game. In this, it is just as difficult to place your attributes properly.
You obviously need a lot of strength to deal damage. Agility is a 1% increase to your DPS with every point. After you have 100 strength, agility increases your DPS by more than strength does. you need vitality and armor to survive all of those hits; and you really need move speed if you want to get the upper hand on any ranged enemy players. And you need these stats in pretty decent ratios, that allow you to creep to the best of your ability without dying too fast.
How the stats counter each other:
Strength: Countered by Armor+Constitution
Spell Damage: Countered by Vitality
Agility: Countered by Armor
Vitality: Countered by Strength
Intelligence: Every point needed here, is a point not put elsewhere.
Constitution: Countered by Agility
Armor: Countered by Spell Damage, high Strength
Speed: Counters Constitution, works with constitution, counters ranged, counters speed, works with ranged; but every point invested here, is one not invested elsewhere.
Hope that clears it up for you. I am sure there will be imbalances in the early editions of the map. The above stats in WC3 "Custom Hero Arena" all have similar roles to what they do in this. The major difference is that in this, you will need to pay attention to how your opponents are using their stats, and alter your plan to best counter them.
The reason "life" is called "vitality" is because it seems kind of silly to say "1 point of life increases your life by 20 points". That concept would create an endless loop of life gaining; in terms of the English language. Same concept as energy. Armor is armor, and is a 1:1 ratio, so I call it armor.
The reason Constitution is not attached to vitality or Intelligence; is because then, regeneration would either be useless, or overpowered. If you gain a lot of life, PLUS life regen from a stat, you end up with a lot of life. Keeping them separate allows for more unique build types. Rather than investing a lot of points into vitality or energy, you can use constitution with armor, and plan to recast abilities as you gain energy for them.
I agree that speed is a very important stat in almost all games. In this, you would be foolish not to invest 10-15 points into speed, from your starting 100. The higher your speed is, the less of a % increase you gain per point invested. .04 speed added to 2.0 is a 2% increase. .04 added onto 4.0 is only a 1% increase. Getting you from point A to point B 1%faster, as opposed to 2% faster, is a 100% (or 50%, how you look at it) difference. It will scale to a point where most people will be around the same movespeed; but allows players the choice to base a build around not moving, versus dashing across the map in seconds.
I did put thought into your idea of using damage %'s; but then came to the conclusion that it would force players to max out that single attribute. IIf you have higher damage, each % increase, will increase it more. So, the more you invest, the better each investment point is. This takes the idea of using any form of "balanced build" completely out of the equation.
I do not find to to confusing to click a button 100 times; but I have also tested this stat system 20+ times. With a plan of what you want, it takes about 20 seconds. If you have to read what all the stats do, and then think it out a little bit, maybe a minute and a half; at the beginning of the game. There is a time limit, where players can select their model, attributes, and skills, before the game "starts". This is so that people who do want to take time and read things are not left in the dark while everyone else has a 3 level jump on farming. If the 100 starting stats do prove to be a problem in the future though; I plan to simply start units with say, 5 into every attribute, and lowering the starting stats to 50-60. That is, if clicking becomes to difficult. Also, I want to "attempt" a player save feature, that can save builds you create. If you want to use them again, you could just load a code, and have the hero again. Personally, I would never use it, but some people might.
When I first made the system, I had far fewer stat points, with a much higher gain from stats. What I found was that it greatly limited the customization of your hero. there was much less grey area between point A and point B, and it is usually in those grey areas that hardcore players can obtain "perfection".
The item slot issue is geared more for making the early game "noob friendly". If everyone starts with the same items, and does not have to directly pick what to stack, or what to start with, it gives those new guys a chance. It is sad to see a new player getting reamed out by his team for trying to find an item he likes in a shop.
I do not like to sacrifice advanced game design to make noob friendly games though; and that is why I have the "upgrade" system. And it will not be a "boots of attack" and "brestplate of attack" type of system. Each item slot will only have a few stats it can touch on. It is types out above, but it came out all blocky, so I take no offense if you missed it.
"boots of speed"
gives 5 speed, can be upgraded 2 times.
Each upgrade adds 2 speed.
Once it is rank 3, you can pick 1 of 3 different paths to upgrade it to.
Path1: grants much more move speed, but nothing else
Path2: grants some move speed, and some agility
Path3: grants armor, but move speed is removed
that is just boots, if those fields interest you. If you think "I dont really need those stats much" then you can decide to upgrade your breastplate.
"Breastplate"
Gives 1 armor and 2 vitality
Each upgrade adds 1 armor and 1 vitality
Once it is rank 3, you can pick 1 of 3 different paths to upgrade to.
Path1: Continues to give armor and vitality
Path2: Gives armor and constitution
Path3: Gives vitality and constitution
ECT, ECT. Before I create all of the items, I am going to have a spreadsheet that makes sure every stat is offered in balanced frequencies, so no build is better off than another based on item upgrades.
One thing I plan to add, once the game is mostly complete is a slot for a "trinket" "charm" "ect". And that item would have a way of more directly affecting your character. Say, 15% evasion. +1 range. 10% damage taken goes to energy. Whatever can be thought up that wont prove "overpowered" but will be a nice buffer between your stats and your hero.
I agree that I am doing a lot of legwork for only small gains on comparison. Perfection comes from a lot of small things lining up just right. Compare the picture quality on a television from the 70's to a 1080p. Lots of little dots make the picture a lot nicer.
I do appreciate that you took the time to read through my post and give feedback and apologize if I come off as one of those guys who "just doesnt wanna hear it." I do enjoy criticism. I just spent a solid week before I touched the editor thinking over how I wanted these things to work, and a lot of my original ideas were replaced... and replaced again.. and again... Causing me to have already though over a lot of the above suggestions.
EDIT: Why does this forum not read "ENTER" as a line break? Killing my format here.
This is a classic hero-arena style map; with a lot of advanced options. That is to say players are spread into 2 teams of heroes. To win the game, players must kill each other. It is not strictly a PvP style game though. Players must kill monsters who spawn in the arena to gain minerals and gain experience. If you try to focus entirely on PvP, you will get outleveled, which means you will have less stats, lower leveled abilities, and worse items. It is important to kill creeps. Killing players is how you win, and also offers bonus minerals.
What sets this game apart from normal hero-arena style maps (which do not exist on SC2) is the level of customization. In this, you select a hero skin, then you select 4 abilities and "innate" attributes. After that, you distribute stats however you want. The video below explains it all quite clearly.
Advanced Stat Systems:
When you hover over a stat, it tells you what the stat does:
Strength: Each point increases attack damage by 1.
Spell Power: Each point increases spell damage by 2.
Agility: Each point increases attack speed by 1%.
Vitality: Each point increases life by 50.
Intelligence: Each point increases energy by 15.
Constitution: Each point increases life regeneration by .3 and energy regeneration by .2.
Armor: Each point reduces all physical damage by 1 and spell damage by 2.
Speed: Each point increases movement speed by .03.
Creep/Terrain Layout:
There are 6 major creep spawns on the map; 1 above each base, 1 below each base, and 2 in the center of the map. there are also 10 minor spawns, where 1 creep spawns at a time and wanders.
Creeps will be levelable. that is, there will only be 10 or so "base" creeps who will spawn at higher levels as the average player level increases. Creeps will be designed to have specific strengths and weaknesses, so that a single build cannot kill all creeps easily.
Examples:
Creep1: High life, low armor. weak to faster attacking heroes, strong against spell casters.
Creep2: Low life, very high armor. Strong against fast attackers, weak to high damage attacks and spells.
Creep3: Fast attacks, long range. Strong against ranged glass cannons with low armor.
Creep4: Slow attacks, high damage. weak to regen builds, strong against armored builds.
Items:
Items in this game are based on upgrades. You start with the base level of all items, and you cannot sell items or own more than one of a certain type of item. You can upgrade items through a dialog system, as shown in the above video. After the basic level of an item, you can pick 1 of 3 paths for each item to upgrade to. Once you make a decision, there is no turning back. The lower the rank of item, the less each stat point costs. While upgrading you need to choose between what might be a quick payoff but a less powerful later game item. If you watch the video and pause it frequently, you can see all of the current items.
PVP:
This game is pvp based, in that to achieve victory, you need to reach a set kill count.
Every 4-1/2 minutes there is an arena where an equal number of players from both teams are randomly selected to fight to the death. The winning team is rewarded a mild sum of minerals, and the losing team gets a bit fewer minerals. Player kills outside of the arena grant a nice bonus, they reduce the opposing teams points kills by 1, but cannot drop below zero.
Game Progression:
Early game goes pretty quickly. Levels 1-10 are fast. The difference in players level throughout the game doesn't have too potent of an affect on a player's ability to perform. The stats are a system of counters, if you pick stats to counter your opponent, you can be 4-5 levels behind and still kill them. This becomes a constant weight value throughout the game, as you try to get the best possible farming output while still maintaining strength in PvP. Stats from items do not have a strong impact on your build early on. Late game, half of your stats may come from items, making your early game item choices important.
Leveling to 30 (the max level) is intended to take about 40 minutes; and a complete game is intended to last 60-70 minutes. It would be nearly impossible for a player to max out all of his/her items.
What I still need to add:
A lot of skills. As long as this game is being played, skills will be added. I plan to have 30 when the public beta is released.
5 minibosses, they will give a secondary resource for end-game item upgrades, and unlock the final boss area.
The final boss.
Gloves and Rings (items)
Trinkets (unique, expensive items that greatly alter a build)
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I agree with this. I haven't played the SC2 edit of his map, I still play most of my custom maps on WC3. On WC3 it is a very unique TD/TW combo. With less variety on SC2, I would assume that would make it stick out even more above the competition. I can understand adding a comment to a rating saying "It has already been done, by the same guy" but it should not change the game rating. Game ratings are intended to tell potential players the best and worst parts of a game. Players aren't going to care if the editor has his work cut out for him because he was using an idea he already had.
I guess everyone reviews in their own way though. Some people only care about eye candy, and a 1/5 on visuals is worse than a 1/5 on gameplay. Other people are very happy with 5/5 gameplay, with a simple terrain, no imports, basic spells; but replayability.
/end thought
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Uploaded a video of the item system I got going on. Just the weapons so far; there will be many more. Again, the video is mostly showing off the system.
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I have a question on the topic of the "arcade" that is yet to be answered. I asked it on the battle.net forums and it was overlooked. I would assume what the answer is, but I would like to make sure:
The map maker is the one who gets to decide if he wants to sell a game for cash, correct? Blizzard doesn't just take a map from the top of the list and say "People like this, we can profit from it."
Equally, does a game need a certain level of popularity in order to be put on the marketplace? to keep people from putting blank maps on there for cheap; hoping that someone purchases it by accident? Mainly, is there a way to prevent the marketplace from being flooded by garbage?
also, for people too lazy to read that post; or search it well; the best thing blizzard is doing to remedy to popularity system is raising maps that have had people sitting in the lobby for a while up the queue list. Not amazing; but it means that if you want to play an unpopular game, there is a chance to if you feel like sitting in the lobby a while.
the problem I do see with that though, would be if a bot could be made to sit in a games lobby until it fills, then leave the lobby. This would be the equal of bot hosting, and if abused could cause terrible games to sit at the top of the lobby list.
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As the topic has changed to "teams" I do wonder...
I have never had another person directly help with my map. The biggest barrier for me is that; while I am working on something, if there is a problem, I know exactly how I triggered everything, everything I changed in the data editor, and every doodad I placed. I can easily track down a problem. Or even, if I were to want to change a system around. If someone else implemented it with all of their variables, I would need to study the whole thing for a while before I could safely dismantle it and recreate something that could do the same thing.
It just seems like it would take entirely too much faith in another person to be on the same page as you and work the same way you would to accomplish something.
You "team players" do you ever run into anything like that? or is it usually broken up so no one is actually touching someone else's work? One guy makes units, one guy makes abilities, one guy makes the terrain, another makes triggers? Which then would seem less like a "team" and more like an "assembly line"
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What works best for me, is getting up a couple of hours before I will ever have to do anything, and putting a couple of hours in. Silence and coffee. Usually, if I have to grind something out, like 10 new heroes, 30 new items, ect; I do it at night, after work, when my brain isn't working. Turn on the t.v. and take 3 times the time it should to complete something. Progress is progress though.
As said above, if you can stick with it until it is playable, balance isn't too difficult. People will play it and balance it for you.
I worked on Custom Hero Arena for WC3 for 3 years, on and off. It had 3 "final" points. But something always came up and I added a lot, changed a lot, remade the entire game from scratch at one point. For about a year though, it was averaging 5000 hours a day play time, and it was the players who balanced it; which made it more popular. A perpetual scheme.
Random people thinking you for your map will give you a lot of juice to keep working.
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The only thing worse than that "completely broad advice" is the "advice from a guy who is just guessing".
Usually, when I come to the point of posting a question (here or the hive) it is because I have spent an hour staring at something trying to figure it out. I will post of a half-wall of text showing exactly what I did and how it didn't work.
More times than not I get "why are you doing that anyway?" "you should go through all of your triggers and make sure it is right" (with a trigger posted). OR, I love when I get "you should just set everything to a variable, and run a loop, checking each variable, and then do actions based on the variables."
Sometimes any one of those thoughts might work. If I take a completely new look on the project, I have been known to scrap all of my work at hand, and start over with a much more complicated system that will look/feel smoother for the player. Often times, I have having a problem and even a rude answer that is an answer would be nice.
In defense of the people who make broad replies in an honest effort to help; a lot of questions are broad, and there are multiple ways to do things. It just feels like there are a lot of "fallback +1" answers that every question gets 3-4 of.
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I got the system for hero creation and ability picking all set up. there is a video in my OP. There wil of course be many more abilities and heroes added, this is simply a video of the working system.
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Title says it. Something I have never encountered is a "help, I make bad words" thread, and there really should be a lot of them. It is annoying from a players standpoint, to have no idea what this tooltip is trying to say; even worse, when people giggle at your wording.
This is mostly aimed at people who don't speak English as a first language. If you have a lot of text in your map and are worried about your wording, I can give you a hand. If it is just a few things, post them here and myself, or I;m sure others, will gladly offer variations of saying the same thing to better fit your context.
If anyone has a big project with a lot of wording to go through, contact me and I can turn it into a week long process for myself, or something.
Just a "misc" help idea.
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@saucysoup: Go
I had a long debate in my head about having a % armor versus a solid armor. In CHA for WC3, the upper tier of players always knew which was better to get. every 30 armor was 100% more EHP. Spell damage, like most WC3 games was % based, but gained from items, and only a single skill. Trying to find a healthy balance between the 4 was difficult. It was also difficult for a player to maintain strengths and defenses in all 4 fields. My hope is that allowing armor to be a set value and counter both spell and attack damage, to take a little of the brain work out of it.
EHP can no longer be a "known, precalculated" value; but an armor/health ratio will always be valid. if you are going to be attacked more than 20 times, a single point of armor will go farther than vitality. 100 vitality is only 2000 HP, 100 strength is 100 damage, that is 20 attacks; with no armor. With 20 armor, that is 25 attacks. you would also have to take into account your opponents spell damage. if they are mostly spell damage and no attack, vitality is a much better choice.
I really hope the armor system can balance itself out. Same as all the stats really. It is very each to change any stat, so if something like "Speed" proves too strong, I can simply reduce the gains per point to the point that it is only worth it in small amounts; rather than being able to mass it.
"game Mechanics and heroes" are taken out of the equation for this game. Well, what best I can. Range and base attack time are the only things that change on heroes. .05 BAT increase for every 1 range; a max range of 6. It is my goal that everything in the game is decided by the player's choices, not the game. that is what gives a game replayability. Well, that and a fair level of balance that will make it so every player doesn't make the same choices. The biggest problem with allowing players to make whatever they want is that someone will always find a "best". If a game can be made more about "who plays the best" well then... that is a damn good game! *high hopes
thanks for commenting ^_^
Also, just to update, I overcame an "editor glitch" with tooltips, and am back at a fast pace. ETA on a video walkthrough is the same.
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An update:
I have been working to get the skill selection in place. Honestly, it seems as though tooltips are currently the most time consuming thing. Anyone ever try to make dynamic tooltips the levelable abilities? Silly is what they are.
My goal is to have the hero/ability/stats seclection intro all set up within a week. That is of course with only a few types of skills for each skill slot. Enough to have the system in place and testable.
I will upload a youtube video once I have it set up.
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<<I do not have Skype, I have always used Ventrillo. If you don't have Vent, I will download Skype. Are you free tomorrow (Friday), around 3-5 your time? I'm on my way out to work and wont be back until it is like 2-3 AM for you.
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I am not too interested in voice acting; but I noticed you are from Europe and using the English language.
I majored in English in college and, without intended to insult you in any way, would like to offer my services in enhancing your phrasing to best suit your needs. That is, using proper tense, the type of words one might expect to hear from a military commander, and offering various attitudes that might work well with various texts.
Just offering the service if you feel it might be helpful.
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Sadly, I occasionally read up on this project. Know in advance that I have never liked DOTA, or DOTA copycat maps. I do however understand what makes maps popular.
Above it is suggested that Blizzards DOTA is gearing more towards a chess game. Teamwork, communication, plans, ect. You are going to have to assume they will have their bases covered.
Why type of player do games like that bring in? Team players. Usually older players. Strategy players, who like to stay 5-6 moves ahead.
If you were to make a hero arena based DOTA (like allstars) then you are geared towards what? Personal accomplishments. Kill streaks. Denying. team carry builds, ect.
What type of player do games like that bring in? Elitists, younger players, players who only need to stay 1 step ahead.
If you compare the player types above, it is clear to see that two games like those, do not advertise to the same types of players. It wouldn't really be competition between the game, more as alternatives, to suit the style of play of players.
Just a thought.
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I have had a lot of comments on the stats system, and it possibly being over complicated, so, I have a write up on it, that I have been universally using:
Why maxing a single stat is bad: Maxing Damage: If you max out any single stat (damage, spell damage) then you are entirely too weak to attacks. Keep in mind, your level is going to be based in large part to how many creeps you can kill; while winning the game is based in how many players you can kill. If you go alllll spell damage, a player can simply pump a level of vitality (300 HP, vs 30 spell damage) and survive that initial spell damage blast, then 1 shot the guy who is going pure spell damage. They could also go high constitution, so that while the "nuke" is on cooldown, they regenerate a lot of life.
Going high armor/life/constitution so you never take damage: Sounds good on paper; but just the opposite of the above, you will never deal damage. If you cannot kill creeps, then you cannot level. Without leveling you dont get more stats and items.
"Balanced" build types: If you wanted to be a glass cannon that was actually viable to play, you would need spell damage, intelligence, constitution, a hint of armor, and some good movespeed. Spell damage obviously makes your spells hit harder. You need intelligence so that you can cast more than 1 spell before needing to run back to base and heal. constitution will regenerate your life and mana while in the field, to minimalize a need to return to base. You need enough armor that ranged creeps arent going to kill you before you kill the spawn. Movement speed is very important to dodging creeps and players who try to kill you; and also, for killing other players in the field.
"Alright, so, casters seem pretty bad, if I need to do all that work just to use a spell, I think going melee meatbag is a great idea" This is how many people like to play game. In this, it is just as difficult to place your attributes properly. You obviously need a lot of strength to deal damage. Agility is a 1% increase to your DPS with every point. After you have 100 strength, agility increases your DPS by more than strength does. you need vitality and armor to survive all of those hits; and you really need move speed if you want to get the upper hand on any ranged enemy players. And you need these stats in pretty decent ratios, that allow you to creep to the best of your ability without dying too fast.
How the stats counter each other: Strength: Countered by Armor+Constitution Spell Damage: Countered by Vitality Agility: Countered by Armor Vitality: Countered by Strength Intelligence: Every point needed here, is a point not put elsewhere. Constitution: Countered by Agility Armor: Countered by Spell Damage, high Strength Speed: Counters Constitution, works with constitution, counters ranged, counters speed, works with ranged; but every point invested here, is one not invested elsewhere. Hope that clears it up for you. I am sure there will be imbalances in the early editions of the map. The above stats in WC3 "Custom Hero Arena" all have similar roles to what they do in this. The major difference is that in this, you will need to pay attention to how your opponents are using their stats, and alter your plan to best counter them.
The reason "life" is called "vitality" is because it seems kind of silly to say "1 point of life increases your life by 20 points". That concept would create an endless loop of life gaining; in terms of the English language. Same concept as energy. Armor is armor, and is a 1:1 ratio, so I call it armor.
The reason Constitution is not attached to vitality or Intelligence; is because then, regeneration would either be useless, or overpowered. If you gain a lot of life, PLUS life regen from a stat, you end up with a lot of life. Keeping them separate allows for more unique build types. Rather than investing a lot of points into vitality or energy, you can use constitution with armor, and plan to recast abilities as you gain energy for them.
I agree that speed is a very important stat in almost all games. In this, you would be foolish not to invest 10-15 points into speed, from your starting 100. The higher your speed is, the less of a % increase you gain per point invested. .04 speed added to 2.0 is a 2% increase. .04 added onto 4.0 is only a 1% increase. Getting you from point A to point B 1%faster, as opposed to 2% faster, is a 100% (or 50%, how you look at it) difference. It will scale to a point where most people will be around the same movespeed; but allows players the choice to base a build around not moving, versus dashing across the map in seconds.
I did put thought into your idea of using damage %'s; but then came to the conclusion that it would force players to max out that single attribute. IIf you have higher damage, each % increase, will increase it more. So, the more you invest, the better each investment point is. This takes the idea of using any form of "balanced build" completely out of the equation.
I do not find to to confusing to click a button 100 times; but I have also tested this stat system 20+ times. With a plan of what you want, it takes about 20 seconds. If you have to read what all the stats do, and then think it out a little bit, maybe a minute and a half; at the beginning of the game. There is a time limit, where players can select their model, attributes, and skills, before the game "starts". This is so that people who do want to take time and read things are not left in the dark while everyone else has a 3 level jump on farming. If the 100 starting stats do prove to be a problem in the future though; I plan to simply start units with say, 5 into every attribute, and lowering the starting stats to 50-60. That is, if clicking becomes to difficult. Also, I want to "attempt" a player save feature, that can save builds you create. If you want to use them again, you could just load a code, and have the hero again. Personally, I would never use it, but some people might.
When I first made the system, I had far fewer stat points, with a much higher gain from stats. What I found was that it greatly limited the customization of your hero. there was much less grey area between point A and point B, and it is usually in those grey areas that hardcore players can obtain "perfection".
The item slot issue is geared more for making the early game "noob friendly". If everyone starts with the same items, and does not have to directly pick what to stack, or what to start with, it gives those new guys a chance. It is sad to see a new player getting reamed out by his team for trying to find an item he likes in a shop.
I do not like to sacrifice advanced game design to make noob friendly games though; and that is why I have the "upgrade" system. And it will not be a "boots of attack" and "brestplate of attack" type of system. Each item slot will only have a few stats it can touch on. It is types out above, but it came out all blocky, so I take no offense if you missed it.
"boots of speed" gives 5 speed, can be upgraded 2 times. Each upgrade adds 2 speed. Once it is rank 3, you can pick 1 of 3 different paths to upgrade it to. Path1: grants much more move speed, but nothing else Path2: grants some move speed, and some agility Path3: grants armor, but move speed is removed that is just boots, if those fields interest you. If you think "I dont really need those stats much" then you can decide to upgrade your breastplate. "Breastplate" Gives 1 armor and 2 vitality Each upgrade adds 1 armor and 1 vitality Once it is rank 3, you can pick 1 of 3 different paths to upgrade to. Path1: Continues to give armor and vitality Path2: Gives armor and constitution Path3: Gives vitality and constitution
ECT, ECT. Before I create all of the items, I am going to have a spreadsheet that makes sure every stat is offered in balanced frequencies, so no build is better off than another based on item upgrades.
One thing I plan to add, once the game is mostly complete is a slot for a "trinket" "charm" "ect". And that item would have a way of more directly affecting your character. Say, 15% evasion. +1 range. 10% damage taken goes to energy. Whatever can be thought up that wont prove "overpowered" but will be a nice buffer between your stats and your hero.
I agree that I am doing a lot of legwork for only small gains on comparison. Perfection comes from a lot of small things lining up just right. Compare the picture quality on a television from the 70's to a 1080p. Lots of little dots make the picture a lot nicer.
I do appreciate that you took the time to read through my post and give feedback and apologize if I come off as one of those guys who "just doesnt wanna hear it." I do enjoy criticism. I just spent a solid week before I touched the editor thinking over how I wanted these things to work, and a lot of my original ideas were replaced... and replaced again.. and again... Causing me to have already though over a lot of the above suggestions.
EDIT: Why does this forum not read "ENTER" as a line break? Killing my format here.
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Custom Hero Arena
This is a classic hero-arena style map; with a lot of advanced options. That is to say players are spread into 2 teams of heroes. To win the game, players must kill each other. It is not strictly a PvP style game though. Players must kill monsters who spawn in the arena to gain minerals and gain experience. If you try to focus entirely on PvP, you will get outleveled, which means you will have less stats, lower leveled abilities, and worse items. It is important to kill creeps. Killing players is how you win, and also offers bonus minerals.
What sets this game apart from normal hero-arena style maps (which do not exist on SC2) is the level of customization. In this, you select a hero skin, then you select 4 abilities and "innate" attributes. After that, you distribute stats however you want. The video below explains it all quite clearly.
Advanced Stat Systems:
When you hover over a stat, it tells you what the stat does: Strength: Each point increases attack damage by 1. Spell Power: Each point increases spell damage by 2. Agility: Each point increases attack speed by 1%. Vitality: Each point increases life by 50. Intelligence: Each point increases energy by 15. Constitution: Each point increases life regeneration by .3 and energy regeneration by .2. Armor: Each point reduces all physical damage by 1 and spell damage by 2. Speed: Each point increases movement speed by .03.
Creep/Terrain Layout:
There are 6 major creep spawns on the map; 1 above each base, 1 below each base, and 2 in the center of the map. there are also 10 minor spawns, where 1 creep spawns at a time and wanders.
Creeps will be levelable. that is, there will only be 10 or so "base" creeps who will spawn at higher levels as the average player level increases. Creeps will be designed to have specific strengths and weaknesses, so that a single build cannot kill all creeps easily.
Examples:
Creep1: High life, low armor. weak to faster attacking heroes, strong against spell casters.
Creep2: Low life, very high armor. Strong against fast attackers, weak to high damage attacks and spells.
Creep3: Fast attacks, long range. Strong against ranged glass cannons with low armor.
Creep4: Slow attacks, high damage. weak to regen builds, strong against armored builds.
Items:
Items in this game are based on upgrades. You start with the base level of all items, and you cannot sell items or own more than one of a certain type of item. You can upgrade items through a dialog system, as shown in the above video. After the basic level of an item, you can pick 1 of 3 paths for each item to upgrade to. Once you make a decision, there is no turning back. The lower the rank of item, the less each stat point costs. While upgrading you need to choose between what might be a quick payoff but a less powerful later game item. If you watch the video and pause it frequently, you can see all of the current items.
PVP:
This game is pvp based, in that to achieve victory, you need to reach a set kill count. Every 4-1/2 minutes there is an arena where an equal number of players from both teams are randomly selected to fight to the death. The winning team is rewarded a mild sum of minerals, and the losing team gets a bit fewer minerals. Player kills outside of the arena grant a nice bonus, they reduce the opposing teams points kills by 1, but cannot drop below zero.
Game Progression:
Early game goes pretty quickly. Levels 1-10 are fast. The difference in players level throughout the game doesn't have too potent of an affect on a player's ability to perform. The stats are a system of counters, if you pick stats to counter your opponent, you can be 4-5 levels behind and still kill them. This becomes a constant weight value throughout the game, as you try to get the best possible farming output while still maintaining strength in PvP. Stats from items do not have a strong impact on your build early on. Late game, half of your stats may come from items, making your early game item choices important.
Leveling to 30 (the max level) is intended to take about 40 minutes; and a complete game is intended to last 60-70 minutes. It would be nearly impossible for a player to max out all of his/her items.
What I still need to add:
A lot of skills. As long as this game is being played, skills will be added. I plan to have 30 when the public beta is released.
5 minibosses, they will give a secondary resource for end-game item upgrades, and unlock the final boss area.
The final boss.
Gloves and Rings (items)
Trinkets (unique, expensive items that greatly alter a build)
Dialog box that shows the score
Achievement system, rankings
Creeps, 5-7 ,more of them.