To be fair, the last time I tried duplicating units was when I worked on Marine Arena probably about a year ago. I should give it another shot and see if things have changed, but when I had to duplicate about 18 units the results were a nightmare. Nothing worked right away; had issues like roaches without footprints and being visible while burrowed, ghosts were constantly having their names reverted back to the duplicated units' name, marauders suddenly doing double damage to units within 0 range, and the list goes on. I can't imagine how an amateur would have handled those issues.
They said they can't add things consistently. Two updates in several years is not exactly consistent ;)
It really shouldn't be too hard to create a program that just writes the xml for you. But, at least as far as I know, there's no way to create a "plug in" for the editor that works right along side it. So users would have to copy/paste the xml themselves (which is too much work) or save the map as a components file (which means they can't work on the map and use the wizard simultaneously).
I appreciate you bringing that up as a potential option. I don't want to sound ungrateful or dismiss it, but my goal with this mockup would be to make the editor accessible to all players, which would mean having direct integration with the editor. The only reason I'm even pursuing this is because a Blizzard employee mentioned they were interested in ideas.
Sorry to come off as negative.... but its not to hard to make units..... that statement alone tells me you haven't spent enough time in the editor.
The goal of the editor wasn't ever to be be easy....... Its super complicated and advance data usage is required to make cool shit.
It may be a steep experience curve but ..... there's so much you can do that you couldn't possibly make a wizard that touched on half of the shit with out that being too complicated itself.
whats so hard about duplicating units anyways...... thats basically what your looking for?
If you've made any maps, you know duplicating is not simple and not without bugs. You know the actor frequently breaks, to the point where it's easier to not duplicate it and just modify the original. You know sometimes unit names revert back to the unit it was based on for no reason. You also know the model sometimes won't correctly attach to the unit data and appear as a blob in the game.
To a new editor, the duplicate function is completely unusable and results in hours of frustration while you search google for why nothing is working.
I believe amongst all of the "dogshit" newbie maps that would come with making the editor more accessible we would see a lot of fun maps as well. I consider the sc2mapster chatroom obscure. Nobody knows to look there unless they are a frequent poster on this forum.
If I were in Blizzard's shoes I would ensure the community managers were skimming (among the forums they already do) the custom maps forums, responding to interesting topics with something like "I don't know, but let me run this by them and see what they say" and potentially follow up later.
I understand the developers are not community managers and I don't expect them to be. But it's in their best interests to keep the dialogue open to all of the people who want to make Starcraft a better game and not just a small subsection of people on this website.
I know you don't agree with me, but surely you can see where I'm coming from right?
I could very well argue that the editor is already pretty casual friendly, but why would you want this and what would you hope to gain from it? I think all that would change is that we'll have an influx of shitty maps, and that's it. People who want to get into the editor are willing to go through the 'tremendous' effort of looking up a couple tutorials online, and people who don't even want to put that effort into their maps are very unlikely to put out something worthwhile to play anyway.
I think this is overlooked by people on this forum specifically (and not on other discussion sites like reddit) because this forum consists of expert authors who have already put their blood and sweat into understanding the editor. On top of that, many people here have experience in coding other languages and thus data editor didn't present a challenge.
There are some maps that were huge in Warcraft III that were made by people who were not advanced editors. Footman Frenzy, Enfos, and Wintermaul Wars are just a few off the top of my head. It's easy for us to dismiss newbie editors as being unable to make anything interesting, when on the contrary it was the amateurs who typically made some of the most fun maps.
Quote from Mozared:
Yeah, except they are actually doing this. Maybe you don't know where to look, but there's plenty of ways Blizzard actually engages in and listens to its community. The arcade wouldn't have ended up like it has if they didn't listen to the mapping community.
Them existing in obscure chatrooms and providing their emails to specific community members I don't find to be useful. I don't personally feel its a fair statement to say that "Blizzard engages its community" when the reality is they engage specific members sometimes, and even then only recently in the last two months. We've no idea if they'll even remain engaged for the foreseeable future given their two years worth of absence.
Third party tools defeats the purpose of making this easy to use. As an aside, I am not a programmer and could not create such a program.
My point with making this is that data editor needs a wizard to assist new editors in making their own maps. It is too difficult right now. There are no third party tools that make it easy.
The galaxy editor team seems to be interested in the idea. Deletarius was writing on the official forum indicating he had asked FockeWolf to make such a design scheme so they could judge for themselves:
Quote from Deletarius:
Yes, I did ask you to lay out a UI for a potential wizard system, however I also asked you to create a workflow that would accompany the UI that you created, which was not done. When I asked you to walk me through the specifics of your system, I unfortunately couldn’t get any concrete idea in my head of how the system was supposed to work.
So at the least, there is interest shown by Blizzard in explaining what a wizard would accomplish and how it would work.
I was talking to one of the devs a few weeks back about this, and he said, that since there is no monthly subscription, that they cant from a buisness standpoint deliver extra content constantly, and that they rely on the community to create 3rd party tools such as this one.
That doesn't make any sense. Using that logic, they shouldn't be updating the editor at all. Why add a UI design tool? Why add cinematic mode? Why add anything unless it comes packed in the expansion? It's not a good reason.
I never understand these threads. I don't know about prize pools, but last I checked StarCraft 2 was on a Dutch version of the American Daily show with two people showing the presentator how much the idea of Barcrafts have been on the rise. Also last I checked Gangnam style was made popular through the StarCraft community and played on the freaking radio daily. Also last I checked Blizzard attempted to have employees contact and co-operate with mappers and pro-gamers alike to improve the balance and interface of the game. Also last I checked Blizzard introduced the arcade as a response to the complaints of mappers with the original system.
Yes, there's a lack of LAN and some different bugs, but I'm kind of at a point where I'm wondering wtf people want from Blizzard. Criticism is not obliged to come with solutions, but I will ask you for some here: what DO you want from Blizzard? What more can they do that would satisfy you as a community member? I'm actually having a hard time coming up with stuff, keeping the previous paragraph in mind. I'm seriously glad I'm not Blizzard right now; while I agreed with a lot of the criticism uttered during the WarCraft 3 and WoW times, it now seems more to me that the community has turned into a collection of whiny little teenagers rather than people with actual insight into the state of the game and legit criticism.
What do I want?
I want the editor to be friendly to casual players so we start seeing more new maps. We've been waiting years for documentation or wizards.
I want the top 10 played list taken offline or moved to a section and replaced with the open lobby list so cool new maps take off right away without requiring a third party fansite to expose it. The only purpose it currently serves is to ensure new maps remain unplayed.
I want old lobbies to show before new ones so people aren't forced to remake them like we were still in the 90s.
I want a Community Manager from Blizzard to actually manage its community by facilitating communication between mappers and developers instead of every other year pretending to care only to retreat back to their lairs after 1-2 months of chatting online with us.
So I posted this to the Blizzard forums but I know a lot of people here don't read them much anymore. I wanted to get any feedback you guys had on this. Before I paste it over, lemme just explain a little what it is I'm trying to do.
I personally believe a big reason we don't see as many maps on Starcraft II as we did in Warcraft III is because there is too great a barrier in terms of difficulty in getting new people to use the data editor. I understand it very well now, but I know personally it took me well over 40-60 hours before I was truly comfortable using it. I don't think the average person has that kind of time to understand what an actor really is, how to do the events for it properly, what parts make a fully customized unit, etc.
So in short, the unit wizard is designed for beginner data editors to make basic custom units. You can make a structures that spawn whatever units you want or units with custom damage and stats. You'll still need to do behaviors, buffs, and effects and such afterward, but this gives you a good template to start with.
---------
What is the unit wizard?
The unit wizard is a tool for beginning map authors to create their own custom units based on existing units within the editor.
What type of units can the unit wizard create?
The unit wizard will create basic structures and units. Examples include a custom barracks that creates custom units, a missile turret customized for tower defense (will only do damage, effects still added the traditional way in data editor), or a buffed super marine to be used in your custom map.
What are the limits of the unit wizard?
The unit wizard will only create a stationary or moving unit based on your selections, with the ability to use its weapon and do the damage you specify.
The unit wizard will NOT do the following:
- Add effects, behaviors, or buffs to the weapon or unit
- Create brand new graphical effects
- Allow you to specify abilities for a unit
What is the overall goal of the unit wizard?
Our goal here is when you're done with the unit wizard you will have a basic template that can be easily modified to make your ideal unit. The model, actors, unit, weapon, damage, and footprint will be completed, leaving you to fine-tune any further details such as ramp-up speeds.
Ideally the typical user will only need to define damage counters, customize the command card, and apply effects from the weapon (such as for custom TD towers) after the wizard is done in order to have a functioning custom unit.
In this screenshot we see a new menu option available from the right click menu in the data editor. Choosing it begins the all-new unit wizard for beginning map editors.
The first step is selecting a unit to base our new unit on. The details of this unit will determine things by default such as model, projectiles used for the weapon, move speed, actors, etc.
Now we're in the unit wizard. It's going to walk your hand through creating your very own custom unit, with a little help from the initial unit you selected. When this process is completed a brand new unit will be added to the data editor with working abilities, actors, models, etc. that can be modified like any other unit.
As you see, each time you make a selection a new menu appears asking you to further clarify what sort of unit this is going to be. The options revealed after each step can potentially change based on your selection.
Finally, when you're ready to set the basic statistics of the weapon, you can punch them into a simple field. Of course we know there's a lot more details to these units, but everything that isn't asked for here will be carried over from the unit we chose initially when starting the wizard.
It's not just for editing the existing UI. You can create your own frames, hook them up as regular dialog items and manipulate with triggers just like any other dialog items created purely with triggers.
Oooo. So you could put together a shop UI or something using this then? Color me excited if that's the case.
Little underwhelming, I hope there's more to show. If the UI editor can be used to make dialogs that would be one thing, but it looks like it's specifically for editing in in-game UI, which the default is fine for 99% of maps on the Arcade. All the little extra options are neat, but none I can see are game-changers.
Would be nice to see a dialog editor or unit creation wizard of some kind. As things are now I feel like they're addressing issues a majority of players aren't really interested in.
People can have "no-holds barred" discussions already. A flame, be definition, is a useless comment meant to enrage the other person. I don't know why we would want to have those kinds of discussions. If you're saying we should just have more honest discussions, I feel like this forum already has that. Most people here aren't afraid to tell you when a bad idea is bad.
This is a stupid idea. You don't need a special forum to have civilized discourse and if you want to flame, there's a million other message boards out there where moderators are 14 and tolerate it.
They pretend to do that. Where have they been the last two years? And now a sudden interest? Happy to see them, don't get me wrong. But this screams to me feigned interest because management is making them. I'll be happy when I see results. Talking to people in an IRC does not erase two years of a garbage interface.
I'll make it super easy for you. I send you the map, you do whatever you like, and send me it back when you're done making changes for the day.
My only request is that you don't build anything very advanced; this is a project I feel like in order to finish needs to be kept as simple as possible, and in the end we can add advanced ideas if it actually gets finished (boss AI, fancier shops, etc.). I've got super low expectations so go nuts on whatever you wanna do for fun.
Send me your email and I'll get you the latest version. You can do a quick test and see how the first three levels work as well as class changing :)
Some more updates. Level 3 is finished. Revised spawning triggers so there's always one main melee unit spawning and then an occasional ranged unit that spawns every little bit. Improved class selection dialogs so they're nice and pretty. Four classes total now if you include marines, each class (except marine) has three skills each. Two enemies; zergling and roach. Gonna keep on truckin.
0
To be fair, the last time I tried duplicating units was when I worked on Marine Arena probably about a year ago. I should give it another shot and see if things have changed, but when I had to duplicate about 18 units the results were a nightmare. Nothing worked right away; had issues like roaches without footprints and being visible while burrowed, ghosts were constantly having their names reverted back to the duplicated units' name, marauders suddenly doing double damage to units within 0 range, and the list goes on. I can't imagine how an amateur would have handled those issues.
0
I appreciate you bringing that up as a potential option. I don't want to sound ungrateful or dismiss it, but my goal with this mockup would be to make the editor accessible to all players, which would mean having direct integration with the editor. The only reason I'm even pursuing this is because a Blizzard employee mentioned they were interested in ideas.
If you've made any maps, you know duplicating is not simple and not without bugs. You know the actor frequently breaks, to the point where it's easier to not duplicate it and just modify the original. You know sometimes unit names revert back to the unit it was based on for no reason. You also know the model sometimes won't correctly attach to the unit data and appear as a blob in the game.
To a new editor, the duplicate function is completely unusable and results in hours of frustration while you search google for why nothing is working.
0
I believe amongst all of the "dogshit" newbie maps that would come with making the editor more accessible we would see a lot of fun maps as well. I consider the sc2mapster chatroom obscure. Nobody knows to look there unless they are a frequent poster on this forum.
If I were in Blizzard's shoes I would ensure the community managers were skimming (among the forums they already do) the custom maps forums, responding to interesting topics with something like "I don't know, but let me run this by them and see what they say" and potentially follow up later.
I understand the developers are not community managers and I don't expect them to be. But it's in their best interests to keep the dialogue open to all of the people who want to make Starcraft a better game and not just a small subsection of people on this website.
I know you don't agree with me, but surely you can see where I'm coming from right?
0
I think this is overlooked by people on this forum specifically (and not on other discussion sites like reddit) because this forum consists of expert authors who have already put their blood and sweat into understanding the editor. On top of that, many people here have experience in coding other languages and thus data editor didn't present a challenge.
There are some maps that were huge in Warcraft III that were made by people who were not advanced editors. Footman Frenzy, Enfos, and Wintermaul Wars are just a few off the top of my head. It's easy for us to dismiss newbie editors as being unable to make anything interesting, when on the contrary it was the amateurs who typically made some of the most fun maps.
Them existing in obscure chatrooms and providing their emails to specific community members I don't find to be useful. I don't personally feel its a fair statement to say that "Blizzard engages its community" when the reality is they engage specific members sometimes, and even then only recently in the last two months. We've no idea if they'll even remain engaged for the foreseeable future given their two years worth of absence.
0
Third party tools defeats the purpose of making this easy to use. As an aside, I am not a programmer and could not create such a program.
My point with making this is that data editor needs a wizard to assist new editors in making their own maps. It is too difficult right now. There are no third party tools that make it easy.
The galaxy editor team seems to be interested in the idea. Deletarius was writing on the official forum indicating he had asked FockeWolf to make such a design scheme so they could judge for themselves:
So at the least, there is interest shown by Blizzard in explaining what a wizard would accomplish and how it would work.
EDIT: And concerning this:
That doesn't make any sense. Using that logic, they shouldn't be updating the editor at all. Why add a UI design tool? Why add cinematic mode? Why add anything unless it comes packed in the expansion? It's not a good reason.
0
What do I want?
0
So I posted this to the Blizzard forums but I know a lot of people here don't read them much anymore. I wanted to get any feedback you guys had on this. Before I paste it over, lemme just explain a little what it is I'm trying to do.
I personally believe a big reason we don't see as many maps on Starcraft II as we did in Warcraft III is because there is too great a barrier in terms of difficulty in getting new people to use the data editor. I understand it very well now, but I know personally it took me well over 40-60 hours before I was truly comfortable using it. I don't think the average person has that kind of time to understand what an actor really is, how to do the events for it properly, what parts make a fully customized unit, etc.
So in short, the unit wizard is designed for beginner data editors to make basic custom units. You can make a structures that spawn whatever units you want or units with custom damage and stats. You'll still need to do behaviors, buffs, and effects and such afterward, but this gives you a good template to start with.
---------What is the unit wizard?
The unit wizard is a tool for beginning map authors to create their own custom units based on existing units within the editor.
What type of units can the unit wizard create?
The unit wizard will create basic structures and units. Examples include a custom barracks that creates custom units, a missile turret customized for tower defense (will only do damage, effects still added the traditional way in data editor), or a buffed super marine to be used in your custom map.
What are the limits of the unit wizard?
The unit wizard will only create a stationary or moving unit based on your selections, with the ability to use its weapon and do the damage you specify.
The unit wizard will NOT do the following:
- Add effects, behaviors, or buffs to the weapon or unit - Create brand new graphical effects - Allow you to specify abilities for a unit
What is the overall goal of the unit wizard?
Our goal here is when you're done with the unit wizard you will have a basic template that can be easily modified to make your ideal unit. The model, actors, unit, weapon, damage, and footprint will be completed, leaving you to fine-tune any further details such as ramp-up speeds.
Ideally the typical user will only need to define damage counters, customize the command card, and apply effects from the weapon (such as for custom TD towers) after the wizard is done in order to have a functioning custom unit.
In this screenshot we see a new menu option available from the right click menu in the data editor. Choosing it begins the all-new unit wizard for beginning map editors.
The first step is selecting a unit to base our new unit on. The details of this unit will determine things by default such as model, projectiles used for the weapon, move speed, actors, etc.
Now we're in the unit wizard. It's going to walk your hand through creating your very own custom unit, with a little help from the initial unit you selected. When this process is completed a brand new unit will be added to the data editor with working abilities, actors, models, etc. that can be modified like any other unit.
As you see, each time you make a selection a new menu appears asking you to further clarify what sort of unit this is going to be. The options revealed after each step can potentially change based on your selection.
Finally, when you're ready to set the basic statistics of the weapon, you can punch them into a simple field. Of course we know there's a lot more details to these units, but everything that isn't asked for here will be carried over from the unit we chose initially when starting the wizard.
0
Oooo. So you could put together a shop UI or something using this then? Color me excited if that's the case.
0
Little underwhelming, I hope there's more to show. If the UI editor can be used to make dialogs that would be one thing, but it looks like it's specifically for editing in in-game UI, which the default is fine for 99% of maps on the Arcade. All the little extra options are neat, but none I can see are game-changers.
Would be nice to see a dialog editor or unit creation wizard of some kind. As things are now I feel like they're addressing issues a majority of players aren't really interested in.
0
@Mozared: Go
People can have "no-holds barred" discussions already. A flame, be definition, is a useless comment meant to enrage the other person. I don't know why we would want to have those kinds of discussions. If you're saying we should just have more honest discussions, I feel like this forum already has that. Most people here aren't afraid to tell you when a bad idea is bad.
0
This is a stupid idea. You don't need a special forum to have civilized discourse and if you want to flame, there's a million other message boards out there where moderators are 14 and tolerate it.
0
They pretend to do that. Where have they been the last two years? And now a sudden interest? Happy to see them, don't get me wrong. But this screams to me feigned interest because management is making them. I'll be happy when I see results. Talking to people in an IRC does not erase two years of a garbage interface.
0
@TassadarCW: Go
I'll make it super easy for you. I send you the map, you do whatever you like, and send me it back when you're done making changes for the day.
My only request is that you don't build anything very advanced; this is a project I feel like in order to finish needs to be kept as simple as possible, and in the end we can add advanced ideas if it actually gets finished (boss AI, fancier shops, etc.). I've got super low expectations so go nuts on whatever you wanna do for fun.
Send me your email and I'll get you the latest version. You can do a quick test and see how the first three levels work as well as class changing :)
0
Bump. If you'd like to contribute, still making steady progress. Groundwork laid for a great game :)
0
Some more updates. Level 3 is finished. Revised spawning triggers so there's always one main melee unit spawning and then an occasional ranged unit that spawns every little bit. Improved class selection dialogs so they're nice and pretty. Four classes total now if you include marines, each class (except marine) has three skills each. Two enemies; zergling and roach. Gonna keep on truckin.