Ever since Zelniq made this thread detailing the positional problems with a map that, for the most part, everybody liked, people have pointed out the problem in games and casts repeatedly.
I talked to the iCCup guys about creating a fixed version, but they're understandably busy guys, with their own awesome maps to make and charity casts to do for the kids. So I figured out how to use the mapmaker today and created my own updated version.
It is currently on NA, SEA and EU as Refined Scrap Station, but before pitching it on the Blizzard forums I wanted to discuss it here, and see if we could all get behind it.
If anybody wants to donate a slot to put it on the KR server, please PM me.
So, here's the list of changes, with screenshots, reasoning, and a poll.
Also, please note, this is not a thread about map balance, or about the racial balance of Scrap Station. This is a thread about the positional spawn point imbalances of Scrap Station. I am not intending to make a new map or a different map, I am intending to fix the positional problems of the existing map while keeping the features and concept of it the same.
Change #1:
The righthand spawn locations ramp was pushed inward slightly. This prevents the problem of spine crawlers on the right spawn having bad coverage of the ramp compared to the left, and prevents the problem of needing an extra creep tumor to reach the natural on the right spawn.
In order to make the number of buildings required to wall off as a FEing Protoss or Terran the same, a doodad was added close to the cliff edge. Walling at the ramp is the same.
Left spawn (for comparison):
Right spawn:
Change in Balance:
I think this is a considerable buff for early game Zerg, for obvious reasons. Terran and Protoss remain the same.
Change #2:
A doodad has been placed behind the destructible rocks on the left-hand spawn. Before, it would take an extra building to wall off behind the rocks on the left spawn compared to the right.
Right spawn (for comparison):
Left spawn:
Change in Balance:
I think this is a minor mid game buff for Protoss and Terran, but it is not necessarily bad for Zerg, since it lets them block the lefthand rock choke with fewer Roaches or whatever.
Change #3:
The chokepoint south of the natural on the right hand side of the map has been slightly enlarged, making it impossible to wall with 2 buildings on the right hand side. It was always possible to wall with 2 on the right hand side.
Left spawn (for comparison):
Right spawn:
Change in Balance:
I think this is a minor early game nerf for Protoss, but nobody is really doing 2 gate pressure anymore, especially not on this map, so really it's just creating wider gaps for big armies in late game.
Change #4:
Previously, there was a spot on the island on the south spawn side where Infestors could spit terrans over the gap, even though Stalkers cannot blink over the island. This spot has been removed to make this no longer possible.
Left spawn (for comparison):
Right spawn:
Change in Balance:
I see this as more of a bug fix than anything else. I suppose it's an extremely minor nerf to Zerg, I've never seen anybody use this trick in a pro game.
Change #5:
After using the map analyzer to check the edits, I found out that the edit to the ramp made the right hand main much smaller than I'd realized, going from 31.0 Command Center equivalents to 28. Because of this, the back of the right hand main was enlarged slightly, in order to make the two mains even.
Change in Balance:
This keeps the mains roughly the same size as they were before, given that change #1 made the righthand main smaller than the left.
Finally, some PMs/Reply's I have gotten from progamers and important community members on the subject:
Quote:
On November 17 2010 05:30 prodiG wrote:
The changes seem okay, but I think if you wanted to have a perfectly balanced map you'd have to make it symmetrical. I'd just copy the top spawn, rotate 45 degrees and flip horizontally and then start lining things up. This would hands down eliminate all problems, although you'd need to completely overhaul the map as none of the aesethics on the bottom half would work anymore, on top of making sure you've got everything perfectly symmetrical.
Quote:
On November 17 2010 10:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Looks good.
Quote:
On November 17 2010 10:41 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Looks pretty good, good job!
Quote:
On November 17 2010 18:22 MorroW wrote:
i like it because scrap station has these positional imbalances that u mention here, the creep spread in the main to ramp and all the wallin things, is actually a pretty big deal at high level. im not 100% if we shoud change left side or right side to make the symmetrical, the only thing i want is that both sides look the same to create positional balance
Quote:
On November 18 2010 01:57 Whiplash wrote:
I'm aware of the positional balance on this map in ZvZ, your balance changes seem to address it. Looks good, I saw your post a few days ago but just didn't comment on it.
Quote:
On November 18 2010 04:12 Chill wrote:
Your solution in change 1 is a bit of a strange one - you've blocked off access to the right ramp by placing that doodad in the way... There must be a more elegant solution to restore symmetry without blocking ramp access. 2 is a no brainer. I don't like 3. I feel the double gate rush + block is a cool possibility, so I feel you should modify the left side to reflect the right side, as opposed to vice versa. 4 is fine as long as it still allows blinking. (blinking was never possible, he and I talked about that after) I don't really have a comment on #5. Hope that helps >_<
Quote:
On November 17 2010 20:12 Mirhi wrote:
I actually like this, I'll have my guys post on this.
Quote:
On November 17 2010 20:25 Tranqfx wrote:
yea, looks good
Quote:
On November 17 2010 21:17 vT bLuR wrote:
i like these changes :) dont like the doodad to block the ramp one though
Anyway, please let me know what you think. Thanks.
0
Original thread on Team Liquid: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169381
-Ever since Zelniq made this thread detailing the positional problems with a map that, for the most part, everybody liked, people have pointed out the problem in games and casts repeatedly.
I talked to the iCCup guys about creating a fixed version, but they're understandably busy guys, with their own awesome maps to make and charity casts to do for the kids. So I figured out how to use the mapmaker today and created my own updated version.
It is currently on NA, SEA and EU as Refined Scrap Station, but before pitching it on the Blizzard forums I wanted to discuss it here, and see if we could all get behind it.
If anybody wants to donate a slot to put it on the KR server, please PM me.
So, here's the list of changes, with screenshots, reasoning, and a poll.
Also, please note, this is not a thread about map balance, or about the racial balance of Scrap Station. This is a thread about the positional spawn point imbalances of Scrap Station. I am not intending to make a new map or a different map, I am intending to fix the positional problems of the existing map while keeping the features and concept of it the same.
Change #1:
The righthand spawn locations ramp was pushed inward slightly. This prevents the problem of spine crawlers on the right spawn having bad coverage of the ramp compared to the left, and prevents the problem of needing an extra creep tumor to reach the natural on the right spawn.
In order to make the number of buildings required to wall off as a FEing Protoss or Terran the same, a doodad was added close to the cliff edge. Walling at the ramp is the same.
Left spawn (for comparison):
Right spawn:
Change in Balance:
I think this is a considerable buff for early game Zerg, for obvious reasons. Terran and Protoss remain the same.
Change #2:
A doodad has been placed behind the destructible rocks on the left-hand spawn. Before, it would take an extra building to wall off behind the rocks on the left spawn compared to the right.
Right spawn (for comparison):
Left spawn:
Change in Balance:
I think this is a minor mid game buff for Protoss and Terran, but it is not necessarily bad for Zerg, since it lets them block the lefthand rock choke with fewer Roaches or whatever.
Change #3:
The chokepoint south of the natural on the right hand side of the map has been slightly enlarged, making it impossible to wall with 2 buildings on the right hand side. It was always possible to wall with 2 on the right hand side.
Left spawn (for comparison):
Right spawn:
Change in Balance:
I think this is a minor early game nerf for Protoss, but nobody is really doing 2 gate pressure anymore, especially not on this map, so really it's just creating wider gaps for big armies in late game.
Change #4:
Previously, there was a spot on the island on the south spawn side where Infestors could spit terrans over the gap, even though Stalkers cannot blink over the island. This spot has been removed to make this no longer possible.
Left spawn (for comparison):
Right spawn:
Change in Balance:
I see this as more of a bug fix than anything else. I suppose it's an extremely minor nerf to Zerg, I've never seen anybody use this trick in a pro game.
Change #5:
After using the map analyzer to check the edits, I found out that the edit to the ramp made the right hand main much smaller than I'd realized, going from 31.0 Command Center equivalents to 28. Because of this, the back of the right hand main was enlarged slightly, in order to make the two mains even.
Map Analyzer imagery:
http://i.imgur.com/bfJqz.jpg
http://imgur.com/QeIbn.jpg
Changes:
Change in Balance:
This keeps the mains roughly the same size as they were before, given that change #1 made the righthand main smaller than the left.
Finally, some PMs/Reply's I have gotten from progamers and important community members on the subject:
Anyway, please let me know what you think. Thanks.