Also, in regards to your comments on my analogy - that matters jack all? The fact is that the streaker is ruining the match. It doesn't matter if the streaker is a random person, the map editor or john doe - as long as he's gone. In this particular case, it would probably be more of a confused naked footballer than a streaker, I guess, but that doesn't really matter - I just don't want to see naked dudes in my football match.
Yes it does matter to jack, and to us, since we're talking about the propriety of mapmakers being censored (justifiably or not), not on random dudes getting jollies from being immature. So, I guess it was your analogy that mattered "jack all" ;)
Having only 1 "semi-bad" word in the map certainly would have lessened the likelihood Blizzard would ban it quickly, since less people would report it. However, once enough people did report it, you really can't say whether or not Blizzard would decide to ban it. Blizzard's inappropriate content policies certainly allow for it.
Also, the football analogy isn't very apt: a more accurate comparison would be if the football teams themselves (the content producers) put in some streakers, ostensibly "for your enjoyment". Some random blabbermouth being intentionally obscene in chat doesn't have anything to do with this discussion.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~biglou/resources/bad-words.txt is a list of 1,300 such words. All of the words Blizzard cited as being offensive are in this list. I would say that if you removed all of these words, and any words with these derivations (words beginning with the same letters as those in this list), you should be safe. If Blizzard still bans your map as a result of an offensive word not in this list, then I don't know what to say to them.
Yes, africa is clearly a bad word ;)
I understand Blizzard's problem with some of the words in NWW's dictionary, but "jesus"? Yeaaahh....
This stuff was in there and you were upset/surprised your map got banned? o.o
Feel free to crack open a large dictionary at your local library and get ready to be offended ;)
Plus, culling words like unisex, narcoterrorism, masochism, and yuppie? Sigh. This is why Blizzard's vague guidance is bad: it leads to over-self-censorship.
If Valve keeps creep denying in Dota 2, there is a real danger it will be like bunnyhopping was in Team Fortress Classic: totally counter-intuitive for newbies. There are many valid criticisms of LoL, but eliminating denying was a good choice.
Sometimes the super-dedicated fans of a previous game can really harm a sequel by demanding it remain completely identical (and thus completely niche). And I'm saying this as someone who has worked on a TFC mod for HL2.
DotA-Allstars' roster of 100+ heroes is being brought over in its entirety. The single map games take place on is functionally identical to the one that you can download for free today in the Warcraft III mod. Items, skills, and upgrade paths are unchanged. Some hero skills work slightly better due to being freed from the now-ancient Warcraft III engine, but Dota 2 will be instantly familiar to any DotA player.
Ugh. I have no doubt that Dota 2 will be very very pretty, but I'm not sure I want to play essentially the same game. That's why I got bored of HoN fairly rapidly.
I was really hoping for an evolution like Team Fortress Classic -> Team Fortress 2.
Yes, he chose to make this type of game that involves words. Besides it really wouldn't be that difficult to come up with a list of safe words to use in his game, I'm sure he could get away with much less than 32,000 words and just keep adding to them.
He could "get away" with a much smaller list, but the map would be lesser for it. It's no fun when words repeat frequently; I've seen words repeat already in NWW, so I don't want to see how often they would repeat with a much smaller database.
Silly to you maybe, but not everyone is like you. I'm personally not effected by these words, but I know that others are for whatever reason.
Sure, everyone isn't like me, but I'm also not the only person to hold this belief. See the official SC2 forum post for significant evidence of this. Also, it's not enough that someone cry "I'm offended!" if the reason for that offense is wholly illogical. I'm offended when maps are ugly: should I report all ugly maps? "Whatever reason" is a vague and arbitrary standard to govern banning maps from Bnet.
The other side of it is, you don't need to use dirty/childish words to make a game or make it fun. Some people might get a kick out of it, but it won't sustain your game.
This isn't a case where the mapmaker decided to be childish to give some people a "kick". This is an instance where some potentially offensive words, which exist in most dictionaries, were included unintentionally. And removing said words is no small feat, especially since many of the words, including the word that Blizzard used as an example ("dyke"), have legitimate meanings.
Anyhow, lets just agree to disagree. I do understand your feelings on the subject, but I also understand blizzards position as well. The more you get into developing games, the more you start to appreciate developers positions imo. Years ago I probably would have agreed with you outright.
Fair enough. It's not that I don't understand Blizzard's position, I just think that it's shortsighted. Cracking down hard on some of the community's best mappers for unintentional mistakes is a horrible way to foster growth of the mapping community. I, and all of my friends that play SC2, have long since finished the campaign. It was great, but the standard multiplayer doesn't exactly thrill us. Custom maps are what keeps us playing. Blizzard knows this, but seems to have a funny way of showing it lately.
Bliz could release the list of words filtered in its mature language filter, or even add a "filter mature words" option in the triggers / effects that display text.
Sadly, I doubt Blizzard would be receptive to any fair use arguments at all. Sure, lots of commercial music samples from other commercial music and gets away with it, but Blizzard will probably ban for even a few seconds of a copyrighted song.
You don't seem to understand, if he is going to use that resource, it's still his responsibility. If the dictionary contains words that blizzard is going to ban and he can't police it well enough, then he simply can't use it.
What you're saying, basically, is that he either has to do a ridiculous amount of work (and somewhat impossible work, since many words have offensive and non-offensive connotations), or he just can't make this type of map. Having him manually type up his own list of words would also either take ages (remember he has to look up the meaning of every word he includes since English isn't his first language), or would lead to boring play since the database of words would be small , and the same words would crop up again and again.
The very fact that Blizzard is banning words entirely divorced from context is silly. They're banning a dictionary: a book I actively paged through for fun when I was seven...and I wasn't emotionally scarred when I came across "dirty" words (and reading a dictionary is even worse, since they provide meanings too!)
Blizzard has pretty much always banned questionable words, I even had to rename a WoW character because in other regions it was a common word for drugs that I hadn't heard.
I think Bliz went pretty overboard in policing char names too, but at least changing your name is easy to do (as opposed to policing a 32,000 word database), and Bliz doesn't penalize you by, say, removing a portion of your char's gold, which is analogous to the stripping of popularity caused by banning NWW, assuming he ever gets it approved again.
The fact that they ban these words is not going to change, so don't bother trying, they have their reasons. If you don't like it, then go make your own game using other software. As it is the tools we get to use for the $80 the game cost is pretty amazing.
Ah, the old, "if you don't like it, don't let the door hit you on the way out" line. Sorry, no. If enough people complain, Blizzard absolutely will change policy. I doubt they will flat out stop banning maps, but if this sort of conflict gets them to stop and think, and rework some of their policies to be less draconian and more considerate of honest mistakes, than it's a discussion worth having. For example, instituting a "mature map" filter whereby Blizzard flags objectionable maps (not completely obscene ones like hentai maps, which would still be banned) as "mature," allowing the map to still exist on Bnet for those who don't feel the need to shield their Teenagers (rated T for teen, remember?) from the world, and allowing the mapper to fix this status if he or she so chooses.
Also, I agree the tools we get for our money are great. I'm not dissing the tools (well, maybe the data editor a teeny bit), just Blizzard's conduct.
The best way to handle this particular situation would probably be create a filter for your map, and put in as many bad words as you so that they don't get used. You could ask blizzard for a list of words, they probably wont give it to you which is a shame because it would make for easy filtering - perhaps if enough people requested it they might.
Bliz could institute a mature language filter for any text displayed on screen, not just chat text. It would make the map pretty hard for people with that filter on, but that's their choice :)
Tbh, one of the huge pros of user generated content is that such content can take risks and be somewhat "edgier" than commercial content (which has to pass ESRB muster, along with publisher and retailer approval. Bliz's "do as I say, not as I've done" standard is, imo, a huge mistake.
Also, to those suggesting the mapper "cleanse" the massive dictionary: really? How about you personally do it for him? And what about arguable words like "bunghole"? Or dyke, for that matter.
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@Mozared: Go
I think it's pretty clear at this point that we're talking about different things
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Sure, but then you said they probably wouldn't. Which, as you admitted, we really don't know at all.
Yes it does matter to jack, and to us, since we're talking about the propriety of mapmakers being censored (justifiably or not), not on random dudes getting jollies from being immature. So, I guess it was your analogy that mattered "jack all" ;)
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@Mozared: Go
Having only 1 "semi-bad" word in the map certainly would have lessened the likelihood Blizzard would ban it quickly, since less people would report it. However, once enough people did report it, you really can't say whether or not Blizzard would decide to ban it. Blizzard's inappropriate content policies certainly allow for it.
Also, the football analogy isn't very apt: a more accurate comparison would be if the football teams themselves (the content producers) put in some streakers, ostensibly "for your enjoyment". Some random blabbermouth being intentionally obscene in chat doesn't have anything to do with this discussion.
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Yes, africa is clearly a bad word ;)
I understand Blizzard's problem with some of the words in NWW's dictionary, but "jesus"? Yeaaahh....
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I enjoyed it.
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People tend to want their maps to be played by others, so often they focus on the popular gametypes of the time, to increase those odds.
You have to market a unique map for it to stand out. Even though the map is free. Sad, but true.
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Feel free to crack open a large dictionary at your local library and get ready to be offended ;)
Plus, culling words like unisex, narcoterrorism, masochism, and yuppie? Sigh. This is why Blizzard's vague guidance is bad: it leads to over-self-censorship.
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If Valve keeps creep denying in Dota 2, there is a real danger it will be like bunnyhopping was in Team Fortress Classic: totally counter-intuitive for newbies. There are many valid criticisms of LoL, but eliminating denying was a good choice.
Sometimes the super-dedicated fans of a previous game can really harm a sequel by demanding it remain completely identical (and thus completely niche). And I'm saying this as someone who has worked on a TFC mod for HL2.
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Ugh. I have no doubt that Dota 2 will be very very pretty, but I'm not sure I want to play essentially the same game. That's why I got bored of HoN fairly rapidly.
I was really hoping for an evolution like Team Fortress Classic -> Team Fortress 2.
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He could "get away" with a much smaller list, but the map would be lesser for it. It's no fun when words repeat frequently; I've seen words repeat already in NWW, so I don't want to see how often they would repeat with a much smaller database.
Sure, everyone isn't like me, but I'm also not the only person to hold this belief. See the official SC2 forum post for significant evidence of this. Also, it's not enough that someone cry "I'm offended!" if the reason for that offense is wholly illogical. I'm offended when maps are ugly: should I report all ugly maps? "Whatever reason" is a vague and arbitrary standard to govern banning maps from Bnet.
This isn't a case where the mapmaker decided to be childish to give some people a "kick". This is an instance where some potentially offensive words, which exist in most dictionaries, were included unintentionally. And removing said words is no small feat, especially since many of the words, including the word that Blizzard used as an example ("dyke"), have legitimate meanings.
Fair enough. It's not that I don't understand Blizzard's position, I just think that it's shortsighted. Cracking down hard on some of the community's best mappers for unintentional mistakes is a horrible way to foster growth of the mapping community. I, and all of my friends that play SC2, have long since finished the campaign. It was great, but the standard multiplayer doesn't exactly thrill us. Custom maps are what keeps us playing. Blizzard knows this, but seems to have a funny way of showing it lately.
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@EnderAtreides: Go
Bliz could release the list of words filtered in its mature language filter, or even add a "filter mature words" option in the triggers / effects that display text.
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@RodrigoAlves: Go
Thanks for your work (and UntitledQ's); I hope to play this map again soon.
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Sadly, I doubt Blizzard would be receptive to any fair use arguments at all. Sure, lots of commercial music samples from other commercial music and gets away with it, but Blizzard will probably ban for even a few seconds of a copyrighted song.
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What you're saying, basically, is that he either has to do a ridiculous amount of work (and somewhat impossible work, since many words have offensive and non-offensive connotations), or he just can't make this type of map. Having him manually type up his own list of words would also either take ages (remember he has to look up the meaning of every word he includes since English isn't his first language), or would lead to boring play since the database of words would be small , and the same words would crop up again and again.
The very fact that Blizzard is banning words entirely divorced from context is silly. They're banning a dictionary: a book I actively paged through for fun when I was seven...and I wasn't emotionally scarred when I came across "dirty" words (and reading a dictionary is even worse, since they provide meanings too!)
I think Bliz went pretty overboard in policing char names too, but at least changing your name is easy to do (as opposed to policing a 32,000 word database), and Bliz doesn't penalize you by, say, removing a portion of your char's gold, which is analogous to the stripping of popularity caused by banning NWW, assuming he ever gets it approved again.
Ah, the old, "if you don't like it, don't let the door hit you on the way out" line. Sorry, no. If enough people complain, Blizzard absolutely will change policy. I doubt they will flat out stop banning maps, but if this sort of conflict gets them to stop and think, and rework some of their policies to be less draconian and more considerate of honest mistakes, than it's a discussion worth having. For example, instituting a "mature map" filter whereby Blizzard flags objectionable maps (not completely obscene ones like hentai maps, which would still be banned) as "mature," allowing the map to still exist on Bnet for those who don't feel the need to shield their Teenagers (rated T for teen, remember?) from the world, and allowing the mapper to fix this status if he or she so chooses.
Also, I agree the tools we get for our money are great. I'm not dissing the tools (well, maybe the data editor a teeny bit), just Blizzard's conduct.
Bliz could institute a mature language filter for any text displayed on screen, not just chat text. It would make the map pretty hard for people with that filter on, but that's their choice :)
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Tbh, one of the huge pros of user generated content is that such content can take risks and be somewhat "edgier" than commercial content (which has to pass ESRB muster, along with publisher and retailer approval. Bliz's "do as I say, not as I've done" standard is, imo, a huge mistake.
Also, to those suggesting the mapper "cleanse" the massive dictionary: really? How about you personally do it for him? And what about arguable words like "bunghole"? Or dyke, for that matter.