I'm moving away from DotA almost entirely, the only thing that will resemble it is that the classes have a set of 4-5 skills you activate by pressing a hotkey, and that it is a team based game with the objective of destroying the enemy base. Beyond that, there won't really be laning, experience points, gold, items, etc...
The game will be much more about interacting with the map itself and fast paced PvP action with low respawn timers, the ability to change class while dead, and I am thinking about 7v7 teams now. I will post more when I have a more complete concept in mind, I need help from a terrain person on my team to get to that point.
@LoneVandal: Go
The neutral camps are cool, but in a map about heroes, I'd rather have points of interest that have an effect that actually has something to do with the heroes, such as giving a gold boost, as opposed to adding in neutral camps to push waves. The point-of-interest tension is still there, but the focus is on the player and their hero and the decisions they make.
It is funny you say that, because my idea for camps was to change them into outposts that players control and can buy items and heal at (limited of course), as well as getting gold over time boosts from them. Sort of like a mini-base. The game starts out they are neutral, and when one side clears them a Medevac flies in and drops off a squad of mercs under your team's colors. The Medevac has energy and can heal your team, but if it runs out you have to let it recharge, so people in lane can't just abuse it for infinite health. But still, this does not solve my other issues. Changing camps and leaving everything else the same is pretty much the same game.
Something else I was considering was going away from Heroes into Classes (along with removing Archetypes), lowering the number available intentionally, and making them more distinct from each other.
@LoneVandal: Go
Stop trying to create Blizzard DOTA before it comes out. No one wants to play that.
Well the project didn't start out that way. The more I worked on it though, the more I came to same conclusions B DotA did. I don't care if you believe me, but most of the work I did was before I knew B DotA was only going to have 3 statistics, was going to change how jungle camps worked, was going to have attacks that outranged towers, was not going to use last hits, etc... And you know what, it all made sense. Everything they're doing makes perfect sense and I think I need to take the map in a new direction entirely. You're right that I shouldn't create Blizzard DotA, I will enjoy playing that when it comes out much more than I would enjoy a half baked attempt at making it myself.
Thinking about it more, the project is taking a new direction. No more trying to be like DotA but easier. A different game, still using 5v5 teams perhaps, but a different game is what I think this needs to become.
So basically, you're taking Blizzard DotA, substituting/adding in a bunch of awful ideas, making it more confusing, and changing a few names around. Sounds like fun.
Not.
As antagonistic as your post was, after a few days I realized you were right when you said "more confusing" which is completely counter to the majority of my effort. I'm tearing the passives out of Archetypes and working on some other methods to continue simplifying things. You should work on not sounding like an asshole. Maybe then people would have an easier time agreeing with what you have to say.
@LoneVandal: Go If the whole thing is a TV show for Dominion people, maybe this infested terran was created by a Dominion bio-lab? Like the Dominion is actually using the show to test their own weapons. This idea made me remember that Killer Instinct game, where about half of those freaks were in the tournament only to be tested as weapons by the company running the show.
An infested terran with that background works, but I have a tight budget which unfortunately doesn't include new models. Since this is designed as a melee hero my options are very limited.
@LoneVandal: Your map's "lore" suggests a strong relation with Starcraft lore, so I think this "plagued one" hero may be am "one-of-a-kind" Infested Terran. I don't know how much you plan to work on their backstories but I could imagine a good one for this hero.
At first I was stuck on the idea that a melee character would pretty much have to be a Zealot, but then I thought maybe a Firebat that spews filth instead of fire, or Kerrigan, would be a good fit for this. Zergy Kerri looks somewhat like a zombie with weird mutations :)
I have created a thread dedicated to discussing game mechanics featured by Crater of Carnage, and will be devoting most of my attention to it from now until the map is finished:
Classes are my attempt to help organize player characters into distinct but flexible play styles.
Warriors
Protoss prisoners that fight to survive make up the Warrior class. They are ruthless killers who despise humanity, fighting only because of the hope that they will be rescued.
Scouts
The Terran Scouts fill a variety of roles on the team, and are usually picked from the ranks of those deemed unfit for military service due to extreme paranoia and aggressive behavior.
Psions
Protoss Templar prisoners who wield psionic powers to devastate their foes through careful application of misdirection and raw power.
Pirates
Terran Pirates who have been captured and were placed in the Crater instead of being executed.
Health as a player upgradable attribute influences the following:
Maximum Hit Points - A bonus amount of Max HP added to your Archetype's base
Hit Point Regeneration - The rate at which you recover HP from passive regeneration
Crowd Control Reduction - Your resistance to stuns, slows, roots, and other disables
I feel it is very important to include CC Reduction as a statistic associated with Health, or it would immediately become a worthless stat when compared with Damage. Think of how easy it would be to just stun a high HP target until you killed them with your crazy damage output. Raising your resistance to that strategy is what will keep this attribute (and Brawlers) competitive. An important thing to keep in mind is that there is NO damage mitigation statistic such as armor or magic resistance in Crater of Carnage. The only things that can mitigate damage are class abilities themselves. The main thing that will keep you from dying is not getting hit, and investing in Health.
Power
The Power attribute is very straightforward, it influences your basic attack AND ability damage. There are no designated carries in Crater of Carnage, so this attribute is valuable to everyone in every class. Every class shares the same Base Damage statistic which grows with level up. Putting resources into Power will raise your Base Damage number further. Damage output will be determined per ability, usually as a percentage of your Base Damage. For example, very fast animating attacks with low cooldowns would do 100% of Base Damage, while slower attacks would do 150%, and AoEs would do 50% of your Base Damage.
Expertise
This effect will change based on the class, for example, a low cooldown melee Brawler with an energy bar to manage may use this attribute to gain increased energy regeneration. It may have multiple effects on the same class, there really are not any limits to what I can design this stat to do.
Attribute Builds
Blizzard DotA has decided to work an item system much like what I am interested in doing, involving minimal directly modified statistics. I am considering ripping items out of the game entirely, and if I did this is the system I would replace them with. The current design allows each player to upgrade their class a maximum of 4 times in each of the following 3 attributes. Each new level of upgrade will cost more than the last, and there will be a logical rule in place that says "If one attribute has reached rank 4, none others may. If two attributes have reached rank 3, the final cannot." This leaves you with 6 actual character builds, as illustrated below:
Build 1
Damage 4
Health 3
Expertise 2
Build 2
Damage 2
Health 3
Expertise 4
Build 3
Damage 4
Health 2
Expertise 3
Build 4
Damage 2
Health 4
Expertise 3
Build 5
Damage 3
Health 2
Expertise 4
Build 6
Damage 3
Health 4
Expertise 3
On any given class you get 6 ways to build them. This demonstrates what I meant by a Safety Net in the first post beautifully, because it is impossible to purchase attributes you absolutely cannot use. At the same time, in most DotA-likes, despite having access to dozens of items, most Heroes only have 1-2 truly competitive builds anyway. While it looks like this system is restricting player choice, it really isn't, it is just removing fake choices that trick new players into making bad decisions. This system allows for individuals to build their characters differently based on the flow of the game and the class they have picked, and it is my hope that in the finished game people have a hard time pinning down what the "best" build really is, and are surprised by opponents using unexpected builds.
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I'm moving away from DotA almost entirely, the only thing that will resemble it is that the classes have a set of 4-5 skills you activate by pressing a hotkey, and that it is a team based game with the objective of destroying the enemy base. Beyond that, there won't really be laning, experience points, gold, items, etc...
The game will be much more about interacting with the map itself and fast paced PvP action with low respawn timers, the ability to change class while dead, and I am thinking about 7v7 teams now. I will post more when I have a more complete concept in mind, I need help from a terrain person on my team to get to that point.
0
Not yet, but it was playable at Blizzcon and they did a whole panel on it. Go watch the panel vid on Youtube.
0
It is funny you say that, because my idea for camps was to change them into outposts that players control and can buy items and heal at (limited of course), as well as getting gold over time boosts from them. Sort of like a mini-base. The game starts out they are neutral, and when one side clears them a Medevac flies in and drops off a squad of mercs under your team's colors. The Medevac has energy and can heal your team, but if it runs out you have to let it recharge, so people in lane can't just abuse it for infinite health. But still, this does not solve my other issues. Changing camps and leaving everything else the same is pretty much the same game.
Something else I was considering was going away from Heroes into Classes (along with removing Archetypes), lowering the number available intentionally, and making them more distinct from each other.
0
Well the project didn't start out that way. The more I worked on it though, the more I came to same conclusions B DotA did. I don't care if you believe me, but most of the work I did was before I knew B DotA was only going to have 3 statistics, was going to change how jungle camps worked, was going to have attacks that outranged towers, was not going to use last hits, etc... And you know what, it all made sense. Everything they're doing makes perfect sense and I think I need to take the map in a new direction entirely. You're right that I shouldn't create Blizzard DotA, I will enjoy playing that when it comes out much more than I would enjoy a half baked attempt at making it myself.
0
Thinking about it more, the project is taking a new direction. No more trying to be like DotA but easier. A different game, still using 5v5 teams perhaps, but a different game is what I think this needs to become.
0
As antagonistic as your post was, after a few days I realized you were right when you said "more confusing" which is completely counter to the majority of my effort. I'm tearing the passives out of Archetypes and working on some other methods to continue simplifying things. You should work on not sounding like an asshole. Maybe then people would have an easier time agreeing with what you have to say.
0
@SouLCarveRR: Go
Wow that model is great :D Is it available for public use?
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An infested terran with that background works, but I have a tight budget which unfortunately doesn't include new models. Since this is designed as a melee hero my options are very limited.
0
At first I was stuck on the idea that a melee character would pretty much have to be a Zealot, but then I thought maybe a Firebat that spews filth instead of fire, or Kerrigan, would be a good fit for this. Zergy Kerri looks somewhat like a zombie with weird mutations :)
0
This is not how you get your questions answered. Try again.
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I do know I can edit older posts, but this helps organize them better for people trying to read the various subjects.
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I have created a thread dedicated to discussing game mechanics featured by Crater of Carnage, and will be devoting most of my attention to it from now until the map is finished:
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/development/map-development/29495-crater-of-carnage-play-mechanics/#p4
p.s. I have revealed the Psion archetype AND the first finished hero concept in that thread :)
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Reserved Post
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Classes
Classes are my attempt to help organize player characters into distinct but flexible play styles.
Warriors
Protoss prisoners that fight to survive make up the Warrior class. They are ruthless killers who despise humanity, fighting only because of the hope that they will be rescued.
Scouts
The Terran Scouts fill a variety of roles on the team, and are usually picked from the ranks of those deemed unfit for military service due to extreme paranoia and aggressive behavior.
Psions
Protoss Templar prisoners who wield psionic powers to devastate their foes through careful application of misdirection and raw power.
Pirates
Terran Pirates who have been captured and were placed in the Crater instead of being executed.
0
Attributes and Hero Growth
Health
Health as a player upgradable attribute influences the following:
I feel it is very important to include CC Reduction as a statistic associated with Health, or it would immediately become a worthless stat when compared with Damage. Think of how easy it would be to just stun a high HP target until you killed them with your crazy damage output. Raising your resistance to that strategy is what will keep this attribute (and Brawlers) competitive. An important thing to keep in mind is that there is NO damage mitigation statistic such as armor or magic resistance in Crater of Carnage. The only things that can mitigate damage are class abilities themselves. The main thing that will keep you from dying is not getting hit, and investing in Health.
Power
The Power attribute is very straightforward, it influences your basic attack AND ability damage. There are no designated carries in Crater of Carnage, so this attribute is valuable to everyone in every class. Every class shares the same Base Damage statistic which grows with level up. Putting resources into Power will raise your Base Damage number further. Damage output will be determined per ability, usually as a percentage of your Base Damage. For example, very fast animating attacks with low cooldowns would do 100% of Base Damage, while slower attacks would do 150%, and AoEs would do 50% of your Base Damage.
Expertise
This effect will change based on the class, for example, a low cooldown melee Brawler with an energy bar to manage may use this attribute to gain increased energy regeneration. It may have multiple effects on the same class, there really are not any limits to what I can design this stat to do.
Attribute Builds
Blizzard DotA has decided to work an item system much like what I am interested in doing, involving minimal directly modified statistics. I am considering ripping items out of the game entirely, and if I did this is the system I would replace them with. The current design allows each player to upgrade their class a maximum of 4 times in each of the following 3 attributes. Each new level of upgrade will cost more than the last, and there will be a logical rule in place that says "If one attribute has reached rank 4, none others may. If two attributes have reached rank 3, the final cannot." This leaves you with 6 actual character builds, as illustrated below:
On any given class you get 6 ways to build them. This demonstrates what I meant by a Safety Net in the first post beautifully, because it is impossible to purchase attributes you absolutely cannot use. At the same time, in most DotA-likes, despite having access to dozens of items, most Heroes only have 1-2 truly competitive builds anyway. While it looks like this system is restricting player choice, it really isn't, it is just removing fake choices that trick new players into making bad decisions. This system allows for individuals to build their characters differently based on the flow of the game and the class they have picked, and it is my hope that in the finished game people have a hard time pinning down what the "best" build really is, and are surprised by opponents using unexpected builds.