The problem with the modding model is that games themselves are more and more becoming mods themselves.
If you make a game on an engine, is it not a mod of an engine? Graphics are unique, sure, but the engine has certain characteristics.
I think the core question is, how far does "original work" go? Is there a difference between those that are "total conversions" and those that are not? I mean paradox resold Hearts of Iron 2 several times. The games they resold were about the same complexity as the mods...
Personally I don't know where to draw the line. But at some point the work put into a mod equates to a full blown game and SC2 mods can often get close to that..
$40 USD $60 EUROS vs how many map makers again? Not a significant number. As I said before the content that could be provided outweighs the supposed lost sales. Because without content LotV won't have as much to sell the expansion. Blizzard says there is a large amount of activity in the arcade. How many of those are free players? How many of those are people who didn't buy HotS? Remember the last official numbers we had access to showed that Blizzard managed to lose 3/5 of their player base between WoL and HotS. The number of map makers who are around who actually have the knowledge to produce the content our sales will not make any significant dent. Our knowledge on the other hand can make a big dent. Many new map makers have turned away on account of the complexity of the editor.
Now I had claimed that custom mods were 40% of the player base over 2 years ago (that was of WoL players). Blizzard needs to be able to prove to these lost customers that they have content the lost customers will want to play. This will not happen if map development does not occur.
It would be a very smart business decision to have map makers be able to start development on the new editor now so when LotV finally hits between Q1-Q2 of 2015 the new content will at least be ready for preview.
Its not about idealism. Its about smart business. Maybe the departure of Rob Pardo finally jolted them into action. They have also completely revamped their jobs page and it looks like they are very short of coders. Coming clean with the custom mod community can help improve that supply of qualified labor.
I'm personally not going to commit any serious efforts until I see how this attempt pans out, but perhaps others may be motivated to give it another go. Many of the best modders the community had have not ported to SC2 even after 3 years. Free copies may encourage those people to do so.
How much is this release going to cost? Cause I mean I don't think any Blizzard game is worth $40 any more, let alone $60 or $80 (If you are European).
Considering how badly I and many others were burned on recent Blizzard releases I think they owe us a freebe.
And consider how small the developer community is giving us, even us inactives, free copies of LotV in the hopes we may over come our stigma against Blizzard and start developing again makes a great deal of sense to me. Our entire group is at most worth about $20,000 in actual sales for a single game but we can provide enough content for other people to justify sales when previously they could not.
In fact giving us a well supported beta well before release also makes a great deal of sense to me. If LotV is stand-alone, then I wonder if old games are going to work with it.
We don't know that yet I'm afraid. during my absence I've been getting me a degree in Computer Science and my paid internship is starting very soon. Not sure I'm gonna have the time or the inclination for restarting that large map project.
On the other hand Blizzard told me I couldn't have lots of units without a huge pathing cost and I think I've managed to show them up with a little algorithm I've developed :)
Hmm... I am sorta tempted to finish an old project but since my HD died I would need to recover it some how... "Squad Prototype." was a diplo map engine and it would really make a difference.. but there when I stopped working on it editor was still buggy as ...
IDK I guess it depends on whether I'm gonna actually get some real support this time around instead of vague statements and promises and whether they are going to fire Cloaken like they so dearly need to. He was not good for the community.
Also I heard OrangeBlue got banned by Cloaken for copyright... If thats true then they have still learned nothing. They couldn't give us definitive answers on anything, even copyright, to save their sorry asses.
Actually come to think of it I'm gonna go ahead and wait before I make any jump like this. After the BS put me and others I am going to be very leery about risking more effort for nothing.
Maybe if we ask Blizzard without attacking them, and showing them why it would be best to have what we suggest delivered, then maybe we have a chance.
Right reasons, right way. It could work, if things sound reasonable enough.
edit:
Oh, yeah, through the proper channels. I think posting on the official forums would be best.
Bwahahaha... that didn't work in 2010 and others tried in 2011, 2012, 2013 and by 2014 every one gave up. Go ahead and try though, you might get a courtesy blue post but nothing will be done. SC2 was written off years ago.
Hard to believe that is a somewhat interesting conversation going on here but..
First of all about the modding. There are 2 general kinds, those that require actual coding skills, and those that don't. In this case Blizzard made the only mod maker that doesn't require a large amount of coding skills to make maps in. That was until SC2 came along. Now you needed to understand a fair wack of programming and you had a very cumbersome GUI to do it with.
If you are a mod maker without coding skills (and not other skills like terrainer and model maker) then you will be stuck with SC2 and pretty much stuck. If you are a mod maker with the required skills then more doors are opening. Source 2, Space Engineers, MineCraft (the new download features appear to be finally coming) and even WarThunder has released a very early scenario editor that appears to be promising and StarDock appears to be moving that way as well. And who know what GrayGoo will bring?
By the time Activision realizes the extend of their error it will be too late. Blizzard had a nice run (over a decade being the number one studio in the media industry is not bad by a long shot with the turnover rates the industry has) but that run is clearly over. LotV will almost certainly not be the release everyone is hoping it will be. Activision has decreed Blizzard must replace WoW with Titan (aka keep the cash cow mooing) and they are just trying to get SC2 out of the way. This means the absolute minimum of money and time will be diverted from Titan to finish SC2. The edrama this will cause will be entertaining but also very predictable.
In the end we will just have to see whether any companies manage to get it right or not. Modding is clearly an integrated experience and as such every component of the experience is very important.
You go get 'em tiger! Also, is PyroCopter your alternate account?
Its my old EU account. They were both bought around when WoL came out. The reason Pryo has HotS is a guy paid me to port some WoW models for him but since his map was going to be HotS we made a deal where he would buy me HotS.
My ethics only go so far when money is involved. I'm in college after all.
Well I've taken my old premium project and cut something like 90% of the content out of it. Its nowhere near finished at this point and I don't expect to.
But its got some cool stuff:
-Squads.
-New and improved hybrids.
-New province system with doodad borders visibly changing to the owner's team color and all of that is linked up to a dialog map with over 200 overlapping images - each one a province that also turns to the owner's team color. Eventually the map is going to have other data.
-New Production system featuring 5 interconnected sliders controlling income rates for 4 unit types.
-Terrain texture resolution increased without adding files (Thanks Fenix!) so effective map size is much larger.
-New AI's allowing for (eventually) single player.
Also I've got some actor templates that I have made containing boat hulls, my squad system and a really good turret mod.
Do I expect to finish all of this? No. And in fact since I am so disgusted with Blizzard at this point over the whole SCU fiasco I'm not motivated to work on it all that much.
Would you believe that Malpheus and I successfully predicted so much of what has happened? And we were not the first by far. Do I take pleasure in being right? Fuck no my maps suffered as much as anyone else's. In fact I got lucky. The community my map served was extremely loyal and I had better luck getting testers than maybe 90% of the mappers who published a map.
The only ones who might gain off this whole fiasco is SCU and only if their kickstarter passes. Even DarkRev is probably not happy about this because depleted player base means his source of donations dries up (I don't know how much he has gotten from it recently).
And if 3rd party ESports companies are dropping Blizzard like this then I think it stands to reason that WCS is also be hosted at a net loss (or very low profit) to Blizzard.
But what really has got me is that so far none of this has prompted Blizzard to take action. Silence is the worst possible thing they could do (other than say something or do something extremely stupid).
Actually about the above, this may trigger a huge wave of forum bans. That would be very stupid since it will scream "cover up" to almost everyone.
0
The problem with the modding model is that games themselves are more and more becoming mods themselves.
If you make a game on an engine, is it not a mod of an engine? Graphics are unique, sure, but the engine has certain characteristics.
I think the core question is, how far does "original work" go? Is there a difference between those that are "total conversions" and those that are not? I mean paradox resold Hearts of Iron 2 several times. The games they resold were about the same complexity as the mods...
Personally I don't know where to draw the line. But at some point the work put into a mod equates to a full blown game and SC2 mods can often get close to that..
0
@houndofbaskerville: Go
$40 USD $60 EUROS vs how many map makers again? Not a significant number. As I said before the content that could be provided outweighs the supposed lost sales. Because without content LotV won't have as much to sell the expansion. Blizzard says there is a large amount of activity in the arcade. How many of those are free players? How many of those are people who didn't buy HotS? Remember the last official numbers we had access to showed that Blizzard managed to lose 3/5 of their player base between WoL and HotS. The number of map makers who are around who actually have the knowledge to produce the content our sales will not make any significant dent. Our knowledge on the other hand can make a big dent. Many new map makers have turned away on account of the complexity of the editor.
Now I had claimed that custom mods were 40% of the player base over 2 years ago (that was of WoL players). Blizzard needs to be able to prove to these lost customers that they have content the lost customers will want to play. This will not happen if map development does not occur.
It would be a very smart business decision to have map makers be able to start development on the new editor now so when LotV finally hits between Q1-Q2 of 2015 the new content will at least be ready for preview.
Its not about idealism. Its about smart business. Maybe the departure of Rob Pardo finally jolted them into action. They have also completely revamped their jobs page and it looks like they are very short of coders. Coming clean with the custom mod community can help improve that supply of qualified labor.
I'm personally not going to commit any serious efforts until I see how this attempt pans out, but perhaps others may be motivated to give it another go. Many of the best modders the community had have not ported to SC2 even after 3 years. Free copies may encourage those people to do so.
0
@ArcaneDurandel: Go
And have they provided us with a way to open these archives? As I recall we had to use an old 3rd party software to get into mpq's.
0
How much is this release going to cost? Cause I mean I don't think any Blizzard game is worth $40 any more, let alone $60 or $80 (If you are European).
Considering how badly I and many others were burned on recent Blizzard releases I think they owe us a freebe.
And consider how small the developer community is giving us, even us inactives, free copies of LotV in the hopes we may over come our stigma against Blizzard and start developing again makes a great deal of sense to me. Our entire group is at most worth about $20,000 in actual sales for a single game but we can provide enough content for other people to justify sales when previously they could not.
In fact giving us a well supported beta well before release also makes a great deal of sense to me. If LotV is stand-alone, then I wonder if old games are going to work with it.
Also is LotV going to include naval pathing?
0
@Bounty_98: Go
Hey Bounty,
We don't know that yet I'm afraid. during my absence I've been getting me a degree in Computer Science and my paid internship is starting very soon. Not sure I'm gonna have the time or the inclination for restarting that large map project.
On the other hand Blizzard told me I couldn't have lots of units without a huge pathing cost and I think I've managed to show them up with a little algorithm I've developed :)
0
Hmm... I am sorta tempted to finish an old project but since my HD died I would need to recover it some how... "Squad Prototype." was a diplo map engine and it would really make a difference.. but there when I stopped working on it editor was still buggy as ...
IDK I guess it depends on whether I'm gonna actually get some real support this time around instead of vague statements and promises and whether they are going to fire Cloaken like they so dearly need to. He was not good for the community.
Also I heard OrangeBlue got banned by Cloaken for copyright... If thats true then they have still learned nothing. They couldn't give us definitive answers on anything, even copyright, to save their sorry asses.
Actually come to think of it I'm gonna go ahead and wait before I make any jump like this. After the BS put me and others I am going to be very leery about risking more effort for nothing.
0
Bwahahaha... that didn't work in 2010 and others tried in 2011, 2012, 2013 and by 2014 every one gave up. Go ahead and try though, you might get a courtesy blue post but nothing will be done. SC2 was written off years ago.
0
Hard to believe that is a somewhat interesting conversation going on here but..
First of all about the modding. There are 2 general kinds, those that require actual coding skills, and those that don't. In this case Blizzard made the only mod maker that doesn't require a large amount of coding skills to make maps in. That was until SC2 came along. Now you needed to understand a fair wack of programming and you had a very cumbersome GUI to do it with.
If you are a mod maker without coding skills (and not other skills like terrainer and model maker) then you will be stuck with SC2 and pretty much stuck. If you are a mod maker with the required skills then more doors are opening. Source 2, Space Engineers, MineCraft (the new download features appear to be finally coming) and even WarThunder has released a very early scenario editor that appears to be promising and StarDock appears to be moving that way as well. And who know what GrayGoo will bring?
By the time Activision realizes the extend of their error it will be too late. Blizzard had a nice run (over a decade being the number one studio in the media industry is not bad by a long shot with the turnover rates the industry has) but that run is clearly over. LotV will almost certainly not be the release everyone is hoping it will be. Activision has decreed Blizzard must replace WoW with Titan (aka keep the cash cow mooing) and they are just trying to get SC2 out of the way. This means the absolute minimum of money and time will be diverted from Titan to finish SC2. The edrama this will cause will be entertaining but also very predictable.
In the end we will just have to see whether any companies manage to get it right or not. Modding is clearly an integrated experience and as such every component of the experience is very important.
0
Nope its all over: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/13348544724#1
No reasonable fan boy will be able to explain away the damage this has done.
Blizzard is just another Activision Studio.
0
Oh great so not only is my internet connection crappy because of the storm but now curse's edit interface is completely glitching out.
Lets try this while I look for a replacement to photobucket.
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i333/marshallwellington/Terrain009_zps77072e4f.jpg
0
Yeti made this for WarCraft 3 Battleships.
0
@FenixKissKerrigan: Go
Broken Alliances
Diplomacy of War 2 (sponsored project)
Other side of the worm hole (sponsored project)
Desert Strike (version with AI pathing that doesn't suck)
StarCraft 2 melee
Space Pirate War/Space Rouges remake
Archery Wars Legacy remake
WarCraft 3 Battleships remake
WarCraft 3 Battle Tanks remake
Genesis of Empires remake
Azeroth Wars remake
WarCraft New Dawn
Star Trek Diplomacy remake
Civilization Wars remake
Missile Defense remake
WinterMaul Wars remake
Rise of Rome remake (sponsored project)
Star Cruisers
Star Cruisers 2
World in Conflict style mod
Moon Project Mod
Fleet Assault
Diplomacy DV
That's all I can think of off the top of my head atm. You are asking me a question that covers the last 3 years.
0
Your text to link here...
0
Its my old EU account. They were both bought around when WoL came out. The reason Pryo has HotS is a guy paid me to port some WoW models for him but since his map was going to be HotS we made a deal where he would buy me HotS. My ethics only go so far when money is involved. I'm in college after all.
Aww we pissed at all the sources?
Hey moderators? Since Eiviyn is obviously here to troll, can I at least teach him how to do it right?
You see it goes like this:
Stupid Photobucket.
Now let us enjoy the moment as the moderators use their faces to smash their keyboards into little tiny pieces.
So moderators, how's about we stop his trolling before I decide to start?
0
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9792720291
And as to what I am doing...
Well I've taken my old premium project and cut something like 90% of the content out of it. Its nowhere near finished at this point and I don't expect to.
But its got some cool stuff: -Squads. -New and improved hybrids. -New province system with doodad borders visibly changing to the owner's team color and all of that is linked up to a dialog map with over 200 overlapping images - each one a province that also turns to the owner's team color. Eventually the map is going to have other data. -New Production system featuring 5 interconnected sliders controlling income rates for 4 unit types. -Terrain texture resolution increased without adding files (Thanks Fenix!) so effective map size is much larger. -New AI's allowing for (eventually) single player.
Also I've got some actor templates that I have made containing boat hulls, my squad system and a really good turret mod.
Do I expect to finish all of this? No. And in fact since I am so disgusted with Blizzard at this point over the whole SCU fiasco I'm not motivated to work on it all that much.
Would you believe that Malpheus and I successfully predicted so much of what has happened? And we were not the first by far. Do I take pleasure in being right? Fuck no my maps suffered as much as anyone else's. In fact I got lucky. The community my map served was extremely loyal and I had better luck getting testers than maybe 90% of the mappers who published a map.
The only ones who might gain off this whole fiasco is SCU and only if their kickstarter passes. Even DarkRev is probably not happy about this because depleted player base means his source of donations dries up (I don't know how much he has gotten from it recently).
And if 3rd party ESports companies are dropping Blizzard like this then I think it stands to reason that WCS is also be hosted at a net loss (or very low profit) to Blizzard.
But what really has got me is that so far none of this has prompted Blizzard to take action. Silence is the worst possible thing they could do (other than say something or do something extremely stupid).
Actually about the above, this may trigger a huge wave of forum bans. That would be very stupid since it will scream "cover up" to almost everyone.