I feel you with the iconic units, but Protoss gameplay is going to be totally evolved with the new units they're getting. Stargate openings are going to take a completely different meaning with HotS. Recall will allow for new early aggression builds that Protosses can't currently do because if they do it now, it's basically all-in. They'll have a host of new openings where they can mix aggression with recall, greedy early expansion builds with the mothership core purifier, and even harass openings with Stargate using Oracle/Phoenix.
Going further, the Tempest is actually really awesome for a Tier 3 unit too, because P's will likely almost surely have Stargate tech out anyway by the time they hit the lategame that it would be a pretty natural transition. A group of 4-5 Tempests with the range upgrade will be great for sniping opposing lategame units from distance in engagements. They'll be great for sniping Colossus or HT/Archons in PvP, Broodlords, Vipers, Swarm Hosts or Infestors in PvZ, etc.
I personally hate the Colossus and think it's boring as hell and would rather have the Reaver, it's just way more interesting. But for Carrier vs. Tempest, there's really no way to make the Carrier a good unit without making it too strong. If you increase its range and/or speed/acceleration so that Vikings/Corruptors don't own them, it becomes way too good because of its insanely high DPS. Also interceptors are always going to be terrible versus Marines no matter what you do, and Hydras now that Zerg will be using them a lot once they hit Hive.
The Carrier is just a unit that even if you buff it to be worthwhile, will either be too good in certain situations or terrible in others, and that's not what you want. The Tempest is a really cool concept, will add tons of micro to the game for BOTH players, and has tons of different uses. So while nostalgia would tell you that keeping the Carrier is a must, it's really just a unit that doesn't fit in with Starcraft 2.
P/Z changes are great, Terran not so much, but that's just judging from the two Battle Reports.
Viper will be an every game unit for zerg. Hook will probably be nerfed a bit in some capacity, but it's going to be good regardless. Swarm Hosts also look to be an every game unit, depending on cost. The Hydra upgrade is awesome and long-awaited.
For P, the Oracle was originally a moronic idea when presented last year at Blizzcon, but it's pretty sweet now, honestly. The cloaking field addition is great for early-game pressure, and the unit itself is a good micro unit that will put extra APM requirements into elite P playstyles, which is something that's required in my opinion because P has always been the race involving the least amount of skill and variety in playstyles. Also the Mothership Core is going to make PvP a lot more interesting, which is a lifesaver. PvP is by far the worst matchup but the Core will allow for more economic playstyles. Also a lot of people hate on the Tempest but I really like it, it will never have vision 22 units away so the P will have to use the Oracle's vision ability to let the Tempest do harassment and observers or other means will have to be properly used and microd to make the most of that unit. I think it's a great idea to put in a unit with long range like that, that makes you use your other units effectively to use it properly.
For Terran, the changes are just pathetic really. The Battle Hellion is the only great idea in there, and will be a welcome addition to T players. The Warhound is nice for TvT and will probably open up TvP to more mech playstyles as well as the missiles will dominate Stalker/Colossus compositions and offer alternatives to viking production, but it's just not an interesting unit. Beyond that Protosses will be more Stargate-centric in PvT it looks like anyway, so that may not even be important. The Widow Mine is nice for early game map control, but no pro player is ever going to let a pack of their units get AoE'd by those things and to make them do anything later in the game you'll have to make so many of them that whether it's cost effective or not is a complete wash. They feel like banelings in that regard.
Meanwhile, Terrans still have a massive hole in their endgame arsenal and will still have to try to end games or tilt them heavily in their favor by the 12-14 minute mark. Battlecruisers are still awful, Thors are still pitiful against all Hive tech, Ravens still suck and no other mention-worthy upgrades were added to any T lategame units. Tanks look to be awful with the addition of Tempests, Viper Pull, Blind, and Warhound missiles. Protoss and Zerg got even stronger late-game while T's already-shitty lategame didn't even get looked at. Terran players should be pissed.
P looks like they'll be a lot of fun to play with the new additions. Right now they seem extremely boring and one-dimensional. Can't wait to see their new strategies.
A new User-Defined Data System has been added. This can be accessed through the new User type in the Data module, as well as its corresponding functions in the trigger library.
The Data Module has been updated to use a horizontal auto-layout to better utilize available screen space.
New data types have been added:
Army Categories
Army Units
Army Upgrades
Bank Conditions
Characters
Heroes
Hero Abilities
Hero Statistics
Locations
Maps
Objectives
Physics Materials
Preload
Tactical AI Cooldowns
User Types
Anyone know what any of this stuff does yet?
Are the new Hero data types just an easier way to make heroes like WC3, without having to go through 300 painful steps in the data editor like we currently do?
I hope this project stays simple. Custom art, UI, and a medieval world is cool, especially in this engine. However I hope the gameplay is traditional, simplistic and true to the AoS genre. Many mappers have tried too hard to create something flashy and brilliant only to have it fall on its face due to complexity. I hope this project succeeds, because you guys are the best in the business when it comes to Blizzard modding.
Well the project didn't start out that way. The more I worked on it though, the more I came to same conclusions B DotA did. I don't care if you believe me, but most of the work I did was before I knew B DotA was only going to have 3 statistics, was going to change how jungle camps worked, was going to have attacks that outranged towers, was not going to use last hits, etc... And you know what, it all made sense. Everything they're doing makes perfect sense and I think I need to take the map in a new direction entirely. You're right that I shouldn't create Blizzard DotA, I will enjoy playing that when it comes out much more than I would enjoy a half baked attempt at making it myself.
Blizzard DOTA isn't infallible, and its core design has a lot of flaws in it too, at least in my opinion. But you took that and went the wrong way with it. Even then, paying people to make a similar map just isn't worth your money.
But with Blizzard DOTA, the removal of last hitting could be taken in a completely different direction. The globe mechanic just doesn't add enough skill to the lane. Competitive players want to show off their skills; laning is one of the primary avenues for this in DOTA. The neutral camps are cool, but in a map about heroes, I'd rather have points of interest that have an effect that actually has something to do with the heroes, such as giving a gold boost, as opposed to adding in neutral camps to push waves. The point-of-interest tension is still there, but the focus is on the player and their hero and the decisions they make.
Beyond that, I don't like how the majority of Blizzard DOTA's items are unlimited-actives; I wish they used charged items for their effect items because then they would run out and players would have to weigh much more heavily how they spend their gold. If they want to buy more charged items to help them in fights, they won't have as high of stat upgrades. Discovering that happy medium adds more tension, decision making and skill to the game.
Having edited and played ROC DOTA and played Allstars, there seems to be a continuum in AoS maps with one side at Chess Match and the other side at Hero Arena. Chess Match meaning strategical decision making in terms of where to send heroes focusing on destroying the other team's base to win the game, whereas Hero Arena means that the primary focus is killing Heroes to gain an advantage in the game and ultimately destroy the other team's base. Allstars falls far on the Hero Arena side, and with it comes the ugly snowball effect. RoC DOTA falls somewhere in the middle, probably a bit closer to the Chess Match side, however the map is very old and has a lot of mechanical flaws that have cropped up over time and were never fixed due to a dwindling community. However my fear with Blizzard DOTA is that the individual skill cap will be fundamentally lower and that the way to gain advantages in games is going to be very heavily related strategical decision making by your team. This leads towards a shift to the Chess Match side. Furthermore, the neutral camps will cause a shift to Chess Match as well, considering how having a "Siege" hero is basically counterproductive to wanting to capture the camps. Siege heroes aren't great in fights; Merc camps require team fights to take control of.
As antagonistic as your post was, after a few days I realized you were right when you said "more confusing" which is completely counter to the majority of my effort. I'm tearing the passives out of Archetypes and working on some other methods to continue simplifying things. You should work on not sounding like an asshole. Maybe then people would have an easier time agreeing with what you have to say.
I don't care if people agree with what I have to say, because I already know I'm right. Whether other people agree with that or not is up to them.
You're paying people tons of money to create a map that Blizzard is already creating. Congratulations. Your map will become a gigantic waste of money when Blizzard's (or someone else's better idea) is released.
DotA maps need variance in the gameplay elements for both casual and competitive players to set them apart from each other. Nothing you described in your posts sets your map apart from Allstars/Sotis or Blizzard's DOTA. You essentially took Blizzard DOTA, removed good ideas from it, and replaced them with bad, generic ones. I could go more in depth, but I'd rather not because it's really not worth my time. But from what I've read, nothing here is worth playing or spending time or money on.
Lastly, this is coming from an AoS player who has played Allstars at a high competitive level and a Map editor who edited the original DOTA on Reign of Chaos for 3 years at the near peak of its popularity. I know a lot more than you do, and I can tell you that you have a lot of work to do.
Sorry for the tone in my posts, but it annoys the hell out of me when people borrow other ideas to use as their own and just make them worse as opposed to improving on them, while presenting themselves as people who know a lot about game design (I can tell that you don't know much or you wouldn't be presenting awful ideas and paying people to make your map).
Stop trying to create Blizzard DOTA before it comes out. No one wants to play that.
So basically, you're taking Blizzard DotA, substituting/adding in a bunch of awful ideas, making it more confusing, and changing a few names around. Sounds like fun.
Making an RPG map. I have a "spell power" attribute which flatly increases the damage done by spells by 1% per point. That works good for damage spells, but how do I make that attribute affect healing spells as well?
Negative damage effects don't work, and the other healing methods (modify unit, healer) aren't modified by that spell damage modification. Do I need to trigger all of my healing spells?
Sorry to necro this, but I searched last night about how people here recommended doing shockwave spells to see if what I was planning on doing would work and this method was the only one I found. I think three different people wrote tutorials making a shockwave spell that used this method. But this doesn't seem like the most sensical way to do it
I don't see why you'd prefer that method to simply using a Launch Missile effect with a Unit/Point target location that has a giant Impact offset. With no impact offset it will just travel to your target click and do its impact effects, but if you add a negative Y offset of say -20 or more the missile will keep going far past your target click. you can instead use timed life behavior to kill the projectile after the amount of time it takes for it to reach the distance you want.
Now, if you want to create a shockwave-like that has a bunch of separated art assets (such as an "underground" one that is demonstrated in all these tutorials) then using a periodic effect is probably ideal. But that isn't how shockwave looks or behaves in WC3, and its a much more difficult process for beginners to set up.
Awesome thanks!! I heard Arthas had Ghoul/Chains of Ice/Death Grip but didn't know his last ability... sounds like a fun hero
I know Warfield has all the abilities from the video: Siege mode, the cone-pushback, the aoe mines and some low-cd aoe damage spell that hurts allies and enemies
Thrall has Chain Heal, Chain Lightning?, something (warstomp?) and then Bloodlust
Kerrigan has a chain lightning
Uther has holy light and Hammer of justice, don't know the other 2
Stitches from what I hear is similar to last year, where he has Hook, Devour, and his AoE slow
All of the hero names are already in the news post, but I can include them again if you want. We might be doing something special for Blizzard DOTA in the near future so I was going to hold on to the abilities until then. This article is more informative than technical.
yeah I was mainly interested in the abilities, I know a few of the hero's skillsets from writeups on other websites (Arthas, Uther, Thrall, Warfield, Stitches) and videos and a few skills from others but the rest remain a mystery
Jungling still exists, just not in the same way as DotA or HoN or LoL. I actually like the lack of needing to last-hit as well. I was playing a ton as Arthas and just focused on killing other players rather than worrying about my income.
Any chance you guys that played it could write up a list of some of the heroes you played and what their abilities were? :)
0
@dgh64: Go
I feel you with the iconic units, but Protoss gameplay is going to be totally evolved with the new units they're getting. Stargate openings are going to take a completely different meaning with HotS. Recall will allow for new early aggression builds that Protosses can't currently do because if they do it now, it's basically all-in. They'll have a host of new openings where they can mix aggression with recall, greedy early expansion builds with the mothership core purifier, and even harass openings with Stargate using Oracle/Phoenix.
Going further, the Tempest is actually really awesome for a Tier 3 unit too, because P's will likely almost surely have Stargate tech out anyway by the time they hit the lategame that it would be a pretty natural transition. A group of 4-5 Tempests with the range upgrade will be great for sniping opposing lategame units from distance in engagements. They'll be great for sniping Colossus or HT/Archons in PvP, Broodlords, Vipers, Swarm Hosts or Infestors in PvZ, etc.
I personally hate the Colossus and think it's boring as hell and would rather have the Reaver, it's just way more interesting. But for Carrier vs. Tempest, there's really no way to make the Carrier a good unit without making it too strong. If you increase its range and/or speed/acceleration so that Vikings/Corruptors don't own them, it becomes way too good because of its insanely high DPS. Also interceptors are always going to be terrible versus Marines no matter what you do, and Hydras now that Zerg will be using them a lot once they hit Hive.
The Carrier is just a unit that even if you buff it to be worthwhile, will either be too good in certain situations or terrible in others, and that's not what you want. The Tempest is a really cool concept, will add tons of micro to the game for BOTH players, and has tons of different uses. So while nostalgia would tell you that keeping the Carrier is a must, it's really just a unit that doesn't fit in with Starcraft 2.
0
P/Z changes are great, Terran not so much, but that's just judging from the two Battle Reports.
Viper will be an every game unit for zerg. Hook will probably be nerfed a bit in some capacity, but it's going to be good regardless. Swarm Hosts also look to be an every game unit, depending on cost. The Hydra upgrade is awesome and long-awaited.
For P, the Oracle was originally a moronic idea when presented last year at Blizzcon, but it's pretty sweet now, honestly. The cloaking field addition is great for early-game pressure, and the unit itself is a good micro unit that will put extra APM requirements into elite P playstyles, which is something that's required in my opinion because P has always been the race involving the least amount of skill and variety in playstyles. Also the Mothership Core is going to make PvP a lot more interesting, which is a lifesaver. PvP is by far the worst matchup but the Core will allow for more economic playstyles. Also a lot of people hate on the Tempest but I really like it, it will never have vision 22 units away so the P will have to use the Oracle's vision ability to let the Tempest do harassment and observers or other means will have to be properly used and microd to make the most of that unit. I think it's a great idea to put in a unit with long range like that, that makes you use your other units effectively to use it properly.
For Terran, the changes are just pathetic really. The Battle Hellion is the only great idea in there, and will be a welcome addition to T players. The Warhound is nice for TvT and will probably open up TvP to more mech playstyles as well as the missiles will dominate Stalker/Colossus compositions and offer alternatives to viking production, but it's just not an interesting unit. Beyond that Protosses will be more Stargate-centric in PvT it looks like anyway, so that may not even be important. The Widow Mine is nice for early game map control, but no pro player is ever going to let a pack of their units get AoE'd by those things and to make them do anything later in the game you'll have to make so many of them that whether it's cost effective or not is a complete wash. They feel like banelings in that regard.
Meanwhile, Terrans still have a massive hole in their endgame arsenal and will still have to try to end games or tilt them heavily in their favor by the 12-14 minute mark. Battlecruisers are still awful, Thors are still pitiful against all Hive tech, Ravens still suck and no other mention-worthy upgrades were added to any T lategame units. Tanks look to be awful with the addition of Tempests, Viper Pull, Blind, and Warhound missiles. Protoss and Zerg got even stronger late-game while T's already-shitty lategame didn't even get looked at. Terran players should be pissed.
P looks like they'll be a lot of fun to play with the new additions. Right now they seem extremely boring and one-dimensional. Can't wait to see their new strategies.
0
Anyone know what any of this stuff does yet?
Are the new Hero data types just an easier way to make heroes like WC3, without having to go through 300 painful steps in the data editor like we currently do?
0
I hope this project stays simple. Custom art, UI, and a medieval world is cool, especially in this engine. However I hope the gameplay is traditional, simplistic and true to the AoS genre. Many mappers have tried too hard to create something flashy and brilliant only to have it fall on its face due to complexity. I hope this project succeeds, because you guys are the best in the business when it comes to Blizzard modding.
0
Awesome!
0
Blizzard DOTA isn't infallible, and its core design has a lot of flaws in it too, at least in my opinion. But you took that and went the wrong way with it. Even then, paying people to make a similar map just isn't worth your money.
But with Blizzard DOTA, the removal of last hitting could be taken in a completely different direction. The globe mechanic just doesn't add enough skill to the lane. Competitive players want to show off their skills; laning is one of the primary avenues for this in DOTA. The neutral camps are cool, but in a map about heroes, I'd rather have points of interest that have an effect that actually has something to do with the heroes, such as giving a gold boost, as opposed to adding in neutral camps to push waves. The point-of-interest tension is still there, but the focus is on the player and their hero and the decisions they make.
Beyond that, I don't like how the majority of Blizzard DOTA's items are unlimited-actives; I wish they used charged items for their effect items because then they would run out and players would have to weigh much more heavily how they spend their gold. If they want to buy more charged items to help them in fights, they won't have as high of stat upgrades. Discovering that happy medium adds more tension, decision making and skill to the game.
Having edited and played ROC DOTA and played Allstars, there seems to be a continuum in AoS maps with one side at Chess Match and the other side at Hero Arena. Chess Match meaning strategical decision making in terms of where to send heroes focusing on destroying the other team's base to win the game, whereas Hero Arena means that the primary focus is killing Heroes to gain an advantage in the game and ultimately destroy the other team's base. Allstars falls far on the Hero Arena side, and with it comes the ugly snowball effect. RoC DOTA falls somewhere in the middle, probably a bit closer to the Chess Match side, however the map is very old and has a lot of mechanical flaws that have cropped up over time and were never fixed due to a dwindling community. However my fear with Blizzard DOTA is that the individual skill cap will be fundamentally lower and that the way to gain advantages in games is going to be very heavily related strategical decision making by your team. This leads towards a shift to the Chess Match side. Furthermore, the neutral camps will cause a shift to Chess Match as well, considering how having a "Siege" hero is basically counterproductive to wanting to capture the camps. Siege heroes aren't great in fights; Merc camps require team fights to take control of.
0
I don't care if people agree with what I have to say, because I already know I'm right. Whether other people agree with that or not is up to them.
You're paying people tons of money to create a map that Blizzard is already creating. Congratulations. Your map will become a gigantic waste of money when Blizzard's (or someone else's better idea) is released.
DotA maps need variance in the gameplay elements for both casual and competitive players to set them apart from each other. Nothing you described in your posts sets your map apart from Allstars/Sotis or Blizzard's DOTA. You essentially took Blizzard DOTA, removed good ideas from it, and replaced them with bad, generic ones. I could go more in depth, but I'd rather not because it's really not worth my time. But from what I've read, nothing here is worth playing or spending time or money on.
Lastly, this is coming from an AoS player who has played Allstars at a high competitive level and a Map editor who edited the original DOTA on Reign of Chaos for 3 years at the near peak of its popularity. I know a lot more than you do, and I can tell you that you have a lot of work to do.
Sorry for the tone in my posts, but it annoys the hell out of me when people borrow other ideas to use as their own and just make them worse as opposed to improving on them, while presenting themselves as people who know a lot about game design (I can tell that you don't know much or you wouldn't be presenting awful ideas and paying people to make your map).
Stop trying to create Blizzard DOTA before it comes out. No one wants to play that.
0
So basically, you're taking Blizzard DotA, substituting/adding in a bunch of awful ideas, making it more confusing, and changing a few names around. Sounds like fun.
Not.
0
Thanks guys
seems pretty moronic to me on blizzard's part that there's nothing in data that can do this, but oh well.
0
Making an RPG map. I have a "spell power" attribute which flatly increases the damage done by spells by 1% per point. That works good for damage spells, but how do I make that attribute affect healing spells as well?
Negative damage effects don't work, and the other healing methods (modify unit, healer) aren't modified by that spell damage modification. Do I need to trigger all of my healing spells?
Thanks in advance!
0
Sorry to necro this, but I searched last night about how people here recommended doing shockwave spells to see if what I was planning on doing would work and this method was the only one I found. I think three different people wrote tutorials making a shockwave spell that used this method. But this doesn't seem like the most sensical way to do it
I don't see why you'd prefer that method to simply using a Launch Missile effect with a Unit/Point target location that has a giant Impact offset. With no impact offset it will just travel to your target click and do its impact effects, but if you add a negative Y offset of say -20 or more the missile will keep going far past your target click. you can instead use timed life behavior to kill the projectile after the amount of time it takes for it to reach the distance you want.
Now, if you want to create a shockwave-like that has a bunch of separated art assets (such as an "underground" one that is demonstrated in all these tutorials) then using a periodic effect is probably ideal. But that isn't how shockwave looks or behaves in WC3, and its a much more difficult process for beginners to set up.
0
thats not how skill is determined .......
0
@DevlinD: Go
Awesome thanks!! I heard Arthas had Ghoul/Chains of Ice/Death Grip but didn't know his last ability... sounds like a fun hero
I know Warfield has all the abilities from the video: Siege mode, the cone-pushback, the aoe mines and some low-cd aoe damage spell that hurts allies and enemies
Thrall has Chain Heal, Chain Lightning?, something (warstomp?) and then Bloodlust
Kerrigan has a chain lightning
Uther has holy light and Hammer of justice, don't know the other 2
Stitches from what I hear is similar to last year, where he has Hook, Devour, and his AoE slow
0
yeah I was mainly interested in the abilities, I know a few of the hero's skillsets from writeups on other websites (Arthas, Uther, Thrall, Warfield, Stitches) and videos and a few skills from others but the rest remain a mystery
0
Any chance you guys that played it could write up a list of some of the heroes you played and what their abilities were? :)