Blizzard DOTA is a multiplayer-based competitive game for StarCraft II, and it is inspired by the Defense of the Ancients (DOTA) custom map for Warcraft III.
As usual, it always helps to know a little bit more specifically what you believe felt wierd about it :)
What do you expect people to say? Your map is a clone of All-Stars on WC3 and DOTA 2. It follows the same formula as those maps and LoL/HoN. Most people would just rather go play those maps than play a map that feels like a square peg being put into a round hole, in terms of how the game fits the Starcraft II engine and interface. All-Stars clones fit best on WC3 and will always fit best there. Your editing talent is clear but you're putting it to waste trying to create a map that already exists on engines more suited for it.
SC2's engine was an opportunity to do something completely new with the genre, such as the Merc system you guys started out with, or using Hero Classes and Talent Trees for the hero classes themselves (as opposed to passive bonuses), using Capture Points on the map (as the UI to do that is much better in SC2), or any other addition.
The "Pick a Hero who has 3 regular abilities, an Ultimate, and a Stats booster and kill as many heroes as you can" formula is terrible and your map follows that mold to a tee. Blizzard DOTA is even following the 3 skills/Ultimate model, but their stats are different, their item system is different, and most importantly, they're innovating by adding the Tower ammo system, capture points on the map, and throwing in Support/Healing heroes as well as Siege heroes. They're doing ten times more to innovate the genre than any map editor has so far on SC2, and that's honestly embarrassing.
Keep SotiS for what it is, but honestly I'd take your mapping talents and create something completely new, because at this point, it is what it is, and there's no way SotiS can be appropriately changed to appease the vast amount of people that don't like it. Is your time really best spent updating a map that's already a clone of a bunch of others and will never reach their apex? Make something new. Innovate...
But still... it's not cool to call other peoples maps shyt while not producing AOS content yourself. The Sotis and Hero Attack guys have done a great job with what they have done. Also I believe I stated what could possibly happen... not that Blizzard DOTA will absolutely suck. Mr. Salty stated that no one can create a better AOS map the Blizzard with the assets they release as a absolute fact. ;3 a troll? me? really? why would yo say that my feelings are hurt.
I agree they've put a lot of hard work into their maps and have done a great job. I'm not trying to degrade their effort. But I do have criticisms of their maps that are entirely legitimate and make me think they're bad. That's my opinion, and I took that here to ask if anyone else had something in development.
My issue is, Sotis started out as something completely separate from what DotA Allstars is, but over time, apparently the developers gave in and made their map become more and more like it. Instead of pushing the boundaries with their obvious talent with the editor, they folded and made something we've all already seen before. Sotis was actually quite interesting in its early stages. The mercenary concept was interesting and if they had kept that concept and expanded upon it over the past 2 years instead of abandoning it, they may have had something that made their map unique. Now, there's nothing that separates their map from any of the DOTA clones, and if I want to play a map like that, I'll go play DOTA 2 or LoL and not worry about relearning a new game that's the exact same anyway.
That will forever be Sotis's downfall, despite the obvious editing talent of its developers. They've tried to create ways to spice it up a little bit, such as with the talent system, but that's not enough to differentiate Sotis into its own AoS, something that's a completely different experience from Allstars, DotA 2, LoL, HoN, etc.
And Hero Attack? Any editor here could have made that map on Warcraft III. It makes practically no use of the depth of the Starcraft II engine. Its simplistic nature and somewhat tongue-in-cheek presentation is awesome and really friendly for newcomers, but the hero content is boring and the map itself doesn't play well at a competitive level, and yes I do have experience trying it. It's a casual map, and that's cool, but I don't see much development effort/talent and I certainly don't see much depth in the gameplay on that map.
Also simple doesn't mean bland. SC2 is extremely simple on the surface, but to call it bland would either imply a dislike for RTS games or downs syndrome.
The biggest put-off for DotA games is their learning curve. You're expected to know the game before you even start, and there's a lot of counter-intuitive mechanics to learn before you can even really play properly. Last-hitting, denying, having more-or-less fixed item builds despite pages of shop items etc.
Blizzard's angle is clearly to get random "I've never played dota and I can't be bothered to learn it" people to give it a shot and be semi-good at it from the start.
That's definitely their angle, and it's frustrating even for me, an AOS veteran, to have to learn a new map with all new skills and items. It sucks. But with Blizzard's approach, I think I'll know everything there is to know about their map after 1 or 2 games.
And you're also right about simple not being bland; but take Thrall's skillset in Blizzard DOTA. Chain Heal, Chain Lightning, Purge totem and Bloodlust... all point-and-click abilities that do one thing without much thought being put in and don't require much thought or timing. I'm sure basic things like the placement of your totems and the timing of your Bloodlusts will matter somewhat, but contrast that to the Tassadar hero.
At Blizzcon he had a shield ability that would absorb damage temporarily, a forcefield wall ability, a psi-storm that slowed enemies, and a decoy ability. The shield has to be used pre-emptively and timed properly or its useless, the force field wall is only effective when placed properly (well-placed walls leading to "ooh!" moments), and the psi-storm has to be aimed well. These are all abilities just as simple as the Thrall hero, but require much more skill and thought to use properly.
Simple doesn't automatically mean bland, but you have to be careful.
Im kind of afraid Blizzard dota will fail at the hero design. From what Iv seen the heroes seemed boring (even thou they should be EPIC since they are from blizzard universe).
I hope they can bring something like Pudge, Axe, Jakiro, Firebat etc...from dota. No need to copy but unique gameplay mechanics that can totally change the gameplay of a hero...You know you have done hero design right when you get spinoff games from one hero.
But I still think they will fail it. Maybe it well be ok and fun, but wont reach the stellar gameplay and feeling that dota had.
Agreed, and I like simple skills if they're given applicable places to show the user's skill. But some of the skills are just too bland. Arthas has a Ghoul summon spell, Chains of Ice, Death grip and can sacrifice his Ghouls to heal himself. Thrall has Chain Heal, Chain Lightning, a debuffing totem and Bloodlust, and all of these are the exact same things you've come to know from Warcraft III. There's nothing very interesting there on either hero, so I hope they take a look at their hero design and add a bit more depth to the skillsets.
One of the major things to remember is that Blizzard is not making Blizzard Allstars. A small subset of their company is, and it is not nearly as large as any of their other game teams. I'm sure it will be very high quality, but from what I have seen it is basically DotA, LoL, HoN, etc. There is very little that is different.
The community has always been the one to carry the custom mapping forward. The real benefit to this whole thing is that we have an updated editor because Blizzard found out that making anything decent was an extreme headache.
As an AOS developer, this doesn't deter me at all. Keep plugging away guys, I know I will be!
I think grouping Blizzard's map in with the other popular Allstars spinoffs is a big mistake. Blizzard's map has a completely different gameplay philosophy from Allstars,Hon and LOL. Blizzard's map is a lot like the original DOTA on ROC. Healers, support heroes, siege heroes, etc.; the point is to kill the other team's base, and you're not pigeonholed into herokilling, farming and the "carry" concept as a means to fight over gold amounts to acquire enough items to where you can actually make a meaningful push. I'm sure herokilling lineups will be a very viable option in Blizzard dota, but you're not forced to go that route. If you've played enough AOS, Blizzard's map is a complete contrast in style to those mods.
A close friend played the Blizzard DOTA build at Blizzcon multiple times. Games are far shorter, and team battles are longer due to having specialized support/healing classes. Furthermore, from his eyes, the snowball effect seemed much less apparent because the losing team always had potential ways to turn the tide of the game that existed ON the map itself and weren't related to gold or items. If they strategized well and started outplaying the other team, there was a much better opportunity for a comeback.
The point I'm trying to make here is that Blizzard's map is sticking to the formula in certain ways, but the gameplay of their map is TOTALLY different than the All-Stars clones out there right now. You're not forced to herokill, gank, and play it like a hero arena, which is a refreshing change.
Have you tried that new tank mod on 1.5 Beta? It has an AoS mode, which was intriguing when I played it but its very buggy and has many kinks yet to work out but it looks like an awesome mod
People Play video games for different reasons... it has nothing to do with being lazy. Also just because "you doubt" it can be done, does not mean it isn't possible. The primary reasons why there isn't a influx of high quality maps are:
1) It takes a lot of time and effort to create a HQ map 2) Map development is a hobby and most people aren't paid for their work.
Out of the millions of Starcraft 2 players you have to admit that a good percentage of them are video game developers with the ability to create custom models and data assets as well as coding and programing games that are just like Starcraft. Some may even like to develop custom maps in their spare time as a hobby... however most of them would not take the time to create a full game to please a whiny little troll on a gaming forum with this RTS engine... because their time would be better spent creating original ideas for their employers or creating original I.P. There are also plenty of students on this website that have the skills or are learning how to create custom assets in programs like 3DS max and Carrera. Hell the Starcraft Universe mod started with a few students and their project has been picked up and supported by Blizzard.
:3 stop complaining and do something about it... Geesh maybe some people just don't want to play LOL or DOTA 2 and love starcraft give me a break and QQ somewhere else my friend. Also to be honest the data assets are awesome and amazing but the 3 of the 4 maps that were released honestly weren't all that great... DOTA 2 is basically going to be like SOTIS with minor changes to the games mechanics and snazy UI in which the code for will be open source and usable by the community.
Quit getting hostile and defensive with me. You look pathetic.
1. I'm not complaining;
2. I never said anyone was lazy outside of sarcastically teasing people about playing on their SC2 client. I was saying Sotis is the exact same experience as the 3 other games, in an attempt to point out that the reason Blizzard DOTA is exciting is because it is completely different;
3. I'm not QQing;
4. I said Sotis was mediocre. Sotis fanboy much?
All I said was I doubt anyone is going to find the motivation, time and ability to create an AoS map better than Blizzard's DOTA, that will still differentiate from LOL/Allstars/DOTA 2 and Blizzard DOTA to the point where it's not just a copy.
thanks for your time. Back to the topic please, instead of attacking me out of fanboyism. TY
:3 well I am creating a Hero PVP map... that's like a 3v3v3v3 DotA with a few unique mechanics. I am working on Hero development and it will be a few months before I release a BETA.
Instead of complaining about the qualities of the maps I would suggest creating one yourself. How dare you!!!! There are only so many effect assets and so many abilities that can be edited into the the game and development takes a while if you have a life. I found that a lot of the Hero Attack unit special abilities are basic summoning more attack and armor buffs... not alot of unique abilities and most of which are abilities from the old SOTIS map like the old Immortal Solace (SOTIS) and summoning the ancients spell on the Immortal in Hero Attack.
I think TOFU is coming out but I'm not sure when...
I am also waiting until Blizzards map is done because of:
1) The new model editor available in HOTS 2) New Unit and data assets released into the editor 3) New Editor Mechanics that will allow players to create a better AOS map 4) New UI editor
There will be a multitude of Blizzard DOTA maps... when Heart of the swarm comes out. I can't wait to see all of the new units that are in the campaign only!!!!
I doubt someone could actually create a map that uses Blizzard's own assets from their DOTA map to make a better one. I don't think people collectively would be able to create a map with equal or better art assets, programming, UI modification, a better map concept, etc. Blizzard has the artists and the programmers, and we're all kind of on our own here. Existing maps that people love will likely continue to be played, but you're going to have your choice of AoS maps; Sotis for your Allstars clone fixation (though why you wouldn't go play WC3/Dota2 or LoL is beyond me) while you're too lazy to log off your SC2 client and load up WC3 or DOTA2 or LOL, and Blizzard DOTA for a different experience.
Whenever I've compared Blizzard DOTA to Allstars, I've used the term "chess match" to describe Blizzard DOTA and "hide and seek" to describe Allstars. Blizzard's DOTA solves many of the issues with the Allstars gamestyle (long, non spectator friendly games, individualism, memorization) but in doing so, may oversimplify things to the point where individual skill is hard to measure.
They will be two completely different styles of AOS, that's for sure. Hopefully Blizzard can strike jackpot with balancing simplicity on the front end with depth on the back end and giving room for great players to separate themselves.
Many people would probably make one, but there's no competing with blizzard's DOTA. Even if you could, you would have to be significantly better than Sotis in order to get any attention, and even then you will never have access to matchmaking and ladder systems like blizzard. In other words, it's a TON of work to make a half-decent dota map, and the chances of it being far better than blizzard's map are quite low. Though we did have one major AoS map in development from Eternal Wraith...Not sure if it's disappeared, or if they're waiting on the map marketplace.
Yeah I had pm'ed with him a bit about his map, but that was like last August and haven't heard anything since. Sotis doesn't bring anything new to the genre whatsoever and I never liked how it was presented. I'm excited about Blizzard's map because they seem to be addressing a lot of the problems with the genre and returning it to its roots. The original DOTA is a lot different than what it became in DOTA Allstars on TFT, and Blizzard seems to be incorporating some of the better concepts from both and fixing the core issues that the gameplay of the Allstars-like maps have.
it was just weird, a few years back thinking about how powerful the SC2 engine would be compared to WC3 and all we have to show for it with AOS mods are a mediocre Allstars clone and... hero attack? Kind of sad
The ones on SC2 are mad shitty. Anyone have one in development, or is everyone just waiting for Blizzard's map?
AOS games are by far the most compelling team play mods for these overhead RTS games when talking about how competitive they are. I'm surprised there aren't more of them, though the amount of work you have to put in to create one in SC2 is quite high.
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cool story bro
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@michaelknives: Go
hahahahaha I knew you were a fanboy the second you went all defensive when I said sotis sucked.
But yes, Blizzard DOTA will have its own ladder and matchmaking.
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@Mozared: Go
Welcome to, hopefully, the reason Blizzard DOTA will exist.
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What do you expect people to say? Your map is a clone of All-Stars on WC3 and DOTA 2. It follows the same formula as those maps and LoL/HoN. Most people would just rather go play those maps than play a map that feels like a square peg being put into a round hole, in terms of how the game fits the Starcraft II engine and interface. All-Stars clones fit best on WC3 and will always fit best there. Your editing talent is clear but you're putting it to waste trying to create a map that already exists on engines more suited for it.
SC2's engine was an opportunity to do something completely new with the genre, such as the Merc system you guys started out with, or using Hero Classes and Talent Trees for the hero classes themselves (as opposed to passive bonuses), using Capture Points on the map (as the UI to do that is much better in SC2), or any other addition.
The "Pick a Hero who has 3 regular abilities, an Ultimate, and a Stats booster and kill as many heroes as you can" formula is terrible and your map follows that mold to a tee. Blizzard DOTA is even following the 3 skills/Ultimate model, but their stats are different, their item system is different, and most importantly, they're innovating by adding the Tower ammo system, capture points on the map, and throwing in Support/Healing heroes as well as Siege heroes. They're doing ten times more to innovate the genre than any map editor has so far on SC2, and that's honestly embarrassing.
Keep SotiS for what it is, but honestly I'd take your mapping talents and create something completely new, because at this point, it is what it is, and there's no way SotiS can be appropriately changed to appease the vast amount of people that don't like it. Is your time really best spent updating a map that's already a clone of a bunch of others and will never reach their apex? Make something new. Innovate...
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Hahaha shocking
And yeah I tried it. Same "stuff", different day
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I agree they've put a lot of hard work into their maps and have done a great job. I'm not trying to degrade their effort. But I do have criticisms of their maps that are entirely legitimate and make me think they're bad. That's my opinion, and I took that here to ask if anyone else had something in development.
My issue is, Sotis started out as something completely separate from what DotA Allstars is, but over time, apparently the developers gave in and made their map become more and more like it. Instead of pushing the boundaries with their obvious talent with the editor, they folded and made something we've all already seen before. Sotis was actually quite interesting in its early stages. The mercenary concept was interesting and if they had kept that concept and expanded upon it over the past 2 years instead of abandoning it, they may have had something that made their map unique. Now, there's nothing that separates their map from any of the DOTA clones, and if I want to play a map like that, I'll go play DOTA 2 or LoL and not worry about relearning a new game that's the exact same anyway.
That will forever be Sotis's downfall, despite the obvious editing talent of its developers. They've tried to create ways to spice it up a little bit, such as with the talent system, but that's not enough to differentiate Sotis into its own AoS, something that's a completely different experience from Allstars, DotA 2, LoL, HoN, etc.
And Hero Attack? Any editor here could have made that map on Warcraft III. It makes practically no use of the depth of the Starcraft II engine. Its simplistic nature and somewhat tongue-in-cheek presentation is awesome and really friendly for newcomers, but the hero content is boring and the map itself doesn't play well at a competitive level, and yes I do have experience trying it. It's a casual map, and that's cool, but I don't see much development effort/talent and I certainly don't see much depth in the gameplay on that map.
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That's definitely their angle, and it's frustrating even for me, an AOS veteran, to have to learn a new map with all new skills and items. It sucks. But with Blizzard's approach, I think I'll know everything there is to know about their map after 1 or 2 games.
And you're also right about simple not being bland; but take Thrall's skillset in Blizzard DOTA. Chain Heal, Chain Lightning, Purge totem and Bloodlust... all point-and-click abilities that do one thing without much thought being put in and don't require much thought or timing. I'm sure basic things like the placement of your totems and the timing of your Bloodlusts will matter somewhat, but contrast that to the Tassadar hero.
At Blizzcon he had a shield ability that would absorb damage temporarily, a forcefield wall ability, a psi-storm that slowed enemies, and a decoy ability. The shield has to be used pre-emptively and timed properly or its useless, the force field wall is only effective when placed properly (well-placed walls leading to "ooh!" moments), and the psi-storm has to be aimed well. These are all abilities just as simple as the Thrall hero, but require much more skill and thought to use properly.
Simple doesn't automatically mean bland, but you have to be careful.
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Agreed, and I like simple skills if they're given applicable places to show the user's skill. But some of the skills are just too bland. Arthas has a Ghoul summon spell, Chains of Ice, Death grip and can sacrifice his Ghouls to heal himself. Thrall has Chain Heal, Chain Lightning, a debuffing totem and Bloodlust, and all of these are the exact same things you've come to know from Warcraft III. There's nothing very interesting there on either hero, so I hope they take a look at their hero design and add a bit more depth to the skillsets.
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@michaelknives: Go
hahahaha look at you go! keep it up man you're really rolling
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I think grouping Blizzard's map in with the other popular Allstars spinoffs is a big mistake. Blizzard's map has a completely different gameplay philosophy from Allstars,Hon and LOL. Blizzard's map is a lot like the original DOTA on ROC. Healers, support heroes, siege heroes, etc.; the point is to kill the other team's base, and you're not pigeonholed into herokilling, farming and the "carry" concept as a means to fight over gold amounts to acquire enough items to where you can actually make a meaningful push. I'm sure herokilling lineups will be a very viable option in Blizzard dota, but you're not forced to go that route. If you've played enough AOS, Blizzard's map is a complete contrast in style to those mods.
A close friend played the Blizzard DOTA build at Blizzcon multiple times. Games are far shorter, and team battles are longer due to having specialized support/healing classes. Furthermore, from his eyes, the snowball effect seemed much less apparent because the losing team always had potential ways to turn the tide of the game that existed ON the map itself and weren't related to gold or items. If they strategized well and started outplaying the other team, there was a much better opportunity for a comeback.
The point I'm trying to make here is that Blizzard's map is sticking to the formula in certain ways, but the gameplay of their map is TOTALLY different than the All-Stars clones out there right now. You're not forced to herokill, gank, and play it like a hero arena, which is a refreshing change.
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@Hookah604: Go
Have you tried that new tank mod on 1.5 Beta? It has an AoS mode, which was intriguing when I played it but its very buggy and has many kinks yet to work out but it looks like an awesome mod
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Quit getting hostile and defensive with me. You look pathetic.
1. I'm not complaining; 2. I never said anyone was lazy outside of sarcastically teasing people about playing on their SC2 client. I was saying Sotis is the exact same experience as the 3 other games, in an attempt to point out that the reason Blizzard DOTA is exciting is because it is completely different; 3. I'm not QQing; 4. I said Sotis was mediocre. Sotis fanboy much?
All I said was I doubt anyone is going to find the motivation, time and ability to create an AoS map better than Blizzard's DOTA, that will still differentiate from LOL/Allstars/DOTA 2 and Blizzard DOTA to the point where it's not just a copy.
thanks for your time. Back to the topic please, instead of attacking me out of fanboyism. TY
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I doubt someone could actually create a map that uses Blizzard's own assets from their DOTA map to make a better one. I don't think people collectively would be able to create a map with equal or better art assets, programming, UI modification, a better map concept, etc. Blizzard has the artists and the programmers, and we're all kind of on our own here. Existing maps that people love will likely continue to be played, but you're going to have your choice of AoS maps; Sotis for your Allstars clone fixation (though why you wouldn't go play WC3/Dota2 or LoL is beyond me) while you're too lazy to log off your SC2 client and load up WC3 or DOTA2 or LOL, and Blizzard DOTA for a different experience.
Whenever I've compared Blizzard DOTA to Allstars, I've used the term "chess match" to describe Blizzard DOTA and "hide and seek" to describe Allstars. Blizzard's DOTA solves many of the issues with the Allstars gamestyle (long, non spectator friendly games, individualism, memorization) but in doing so, may oversimplify things to the point where individual skill is hard to measure.
They will be two completely different styles of AOS, that's for sure. Hopefully Blizzard can strike jackpot with balancing simplicity on the front end with depth on the back end and giving room for great players to separate themselves.
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Yeah I had pm'ed with him a bit about his map, but that was like last August and haven't heard anything since. Sotis doesn't bring anything new to the genre whatsoever and I never liked how it was presented. I'm excited about Blizzard's map because they seem to be addressing a lot of the problems with the genre and returning it to its roots. The original DOTA is a lot different than what it became in DOTA Allstars on TFT, and Blizzard seems to be incorporating some of the better concepts from both and fixing the core issues that the gameplay of the Allstars-like maps have.
it was just weird, a few years back thinking about how powerful the SC2 engine would be compared to WC3 and all we have to show for it with AOS mods are a mediocre Allstars clone and... hero attack? Kind of sad
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The ones on SC2 are mad shitty. Anyone have one in development, or is everyone just waiting for Blizzard's map?
AOS games are by far the most compelling team play mods for these overhead RTS games when talking about how competitive they are. I'm surprised there aren't more of them, though the amount of work you have to put in to create one in SC2 is quite high.