lol. There it is. That word 'everyone' again. I play Starbattles and I think VoidCraft looks significantly better with the massive scope of the player controlled ships.
As for not being hosted on US, did Eiviyn definitively say that? I've only seen comments that said she was still looking for some way to host it on US.
Well. I see despite dismissing my idea all those months ago you finally decided to put in a deck customization feature. Now I will play this map again. But, 100000 exp to unlock deck customization? That's a lot. You should let users make their own decks at something like 10000 exp after they've played a few games with the random deck... (I couldn't find an updated thread for your project clord so that's why I'm posting here). Thanks for adding this at all though. I was going to test out the deck builder right now since I just unlocked it last night but bnet is down.
So I played 3 games. 1 Very Hard and 2 Insane. Lost the Very Hard and won the 2 Insane (but I 7RRed in the insane games so that's sort of a cheese tactic I guess, I was impressed how the AI responded in one of the games though).
I'm not ranked in 1v1 but I win 50/50 with my friends who are all diamond or platinum so I'm realistically probably platinum but potentially low diamond (I watch a ton of GSL and have played around 300 2v2 games so that's how I manage being decent at 1v1 without playing =P). Anyway, I always beat Blizzard Very Hard AI... but I never let the game become a macro game. Against Blizzard AI the way it goes is as follows:
When I'm Terran
- AI gets an early army advantage and pushes. I scout the push and build a bunker. Repair bunker and hold off push. AI is stupid and sacrifices units while trying to attack my bunker while I'm repairing and pumping out units. Counter push and win.
When I'm Protoss
- AI gets an early army advantage and pushes. I FF ramp. AI is stupid and sacrifices units while trying to get past FF. Counter push and win.
When I'm Zerg
- 7RR (haha, I suck with zerg but this always decimates AI, Blizz AI has NO idea how to stop 7RR)
I'm a random player btw.
Against your AI:
P (Me) v T (Very Hard)
AI early pushed with bigger army (like Blizz AI) but backed out instead of being stupid and getting split by my FF when it saw I had 5 sentries. Blizz AI would have sacrificed army at this point and I would have pushed out to win. The AI out-macroed me and I lost in the end. It stayed about one base ahead of me the whole game. 3 base vs 4 base in the end. The final battle I only had 120 supply vs 200 and I had no banked minerals. I couldn't keep up since I was down a base the whole game.
Notable AI Flaws:
- When I trapped the AI's army with FFs, the AI's left 8 SCVs it had pulled from the line to help defend sitting behind the FFs trying to attack. First of all, the AI had a better or at least comparable army anyway (MMM against Zealot Stalker Sentry at same supply) so it shouldn't have pulled SCVs off the line (or at least not EIGHT SCVs). Secondly, the AI had a bunker in front of its natural but chose to move out to engage my army even after it had just scouted it with a marine. Not sure why it decided to move out and then immediately try to run (unsuccessfully since I FFed it) as soon as it engaged me in the open.
- Drops... The AI tried to do three drops on me (8 marines in each medivac). All three of them went straight through the center of the map. I picked off two of the fully loaded dropships with stalkers. One of them I took out on purpose because I scouted it... but the other I didn't even control my units and they automatically followed the dropship to kill it since the medivac flew straight into my army and agroed my stalkers o.O
Z (Me) vs Z (Insane)
I was impressed by the AI here. The AI fast expanded but still did a decent job of delaying the loss (especially compared to blizzard AI). EagleAI didn't try to build any drones after it saw my Roach army. Instead it spammed lings and placed Spine Crawlers. The AI really should have pulled some drones though, but never did in this game. Not sure why since it was overzealous with its worker pulling in the PvT game but didn't do it when it was actually necessary in this match. AI overall certainly gave me a run for my money though and I felt it really could have held off my push with a few adjustments. Probably should have canceled the hatchery for one. The AI only had out 6 lings and no crawlers when my 7 roaches arrived at the natural and the hatch was only half done. The AI did cancel a spine crawler it was morphing though when I was about to kill it which was nice to see.
Notable AI Flaws:
- Sacrificed a queen by leaving it by itself after spawning a tumor. The queen just sat between the natural and main (right outside the choke) for 6 or 7 seconds (an eternity in SC). All the lings at the natural had died and the rest of the AI army was in the main near the main hatch...
- Teched to lair. Getting mutas to counter my roaches?* No. Teched to lair to get... wait for it... a NYDUS NETWORK! Perfect counter to 7RR right? Well, sorry AI. Any chance you had to hold off the rush was lost when you made that decision. It probably still would have lost anyway since I had three times the supply by that point, but the AI could have had so many more roaches.
This would have been stupid also btw since it would have taken way too long to get up the spire... but still, at least there would be some logic there.
- This isn't as important, but I felt the building placement was rather poor. The tech buildings were towards the front of the base away from the hatchery. This is easily scoutable in general which is bad, but it was especially bad in this game since the AI decided to put the spinecrawler right next to the hatch (makes sense for protecting drones, but unfortunate for the AI since I can pick off the tech, even the spawning pool...). Either put the basic tech behind the mineral lines or closer to hatchery front, or put spinecrawler closer to choke.
Z (Me) vs P (Insane)
I 7RRed. P didn't put up much of a fight. Had 1 zealot, 1 stalker, and 1 sentry when I got there.
Notable AI Flaws:
- Engaged me. Bad idea. Should have moved back and FFed the ramp to buy time. Instead the AI lost the stalker and zealot and pulled 6 probes off the line to help.
- Okay, if you insist on engaging, then pulling probes is a good idea. FF ramp after pulling probes and then leaving probes right behind the FF where they can still be hit? Bad idea. Leaving the probes is so bad already that the rest seems trivial, but the AI also left his sentries right behind the FF. Even if the probes hadn't been there... the point of using FF isn't so that the sentries can continue to sit in full view of the roaches and die. It's to allow the sentries to move away and be safe from the roaches while the Protoss warps in stalkers and zealots.
- Using 2 FFs on ramp that can be blocked with 1 FF. One thing an AI at Insane level should be able to do flawlessly is cast an FF that blocks a choke... this is the kind of thing that a human can mess up but that an Insane level AI should get automatically. Why did it cast two FFs? It's not like the AI can get too jumpy and hit F twice on accident like a human can =P Or is this a realism factor? haha
Overall, I'm very impressed with this AI and hope you continue to smooth out the flaws.
You complain consistently over a prolonged period of time and you think he's complaining more than you are with a single post?
What is the reason you even care about this so much that you complain all the time? Is it because you want people to be able to discover your maps since you think they will enjoy them and you just want to spread happiness, or is it because you want to be popular? If it's the former, then there is nothing wrong with complaining. Just acknowledge that you do complain a lot. If there is a valid reason for the complaint, you shouldn't feel bad about it. The fact that you're denying that you complain often makes it seem like you do feel there is a level of invalidity to your whining and leads to the suspicion that you care more about fame.
Do not feel the need to respond as I will not be revisiting this thread.
Blizzard could do that. It would be perfectly allowed if there is no rule in the GSL against it. However, you can be sure that GSL would ban that in future rules, the Blizzard employee would no longer be good enough without his trick, and people would frown upon that employee for doing that in the first place. But should he get banned? No, any player could have done it. But this exploit wouldn't pay off for the employee regardless since everyone would know s/he didn't really deserve the wins. Winning at the expense of image. The same applies in the case of the map system. I personally don't care, but apparently Blizzard's image is being harmed by 'cheating' like this. At the same time, there is nothing inherently wrong with it.
Was that supposed to be a reply to me? It looks more like it is directed to the TC. But anyway, I agree with what you are saying, but I don't believe that is the main problem in itself the TC has with the responses to this thread. I agree that a more descriptive name should be used and that DK is probably more commonly heard of by SC2 players than one would expect (I think I've read about it. Is that the game where you build your own dungeon and then go there once a day?). However, the issue here is that a majority of the posts on this thread are entirely focused on the name and people are not addressing the actual topic. Good advice or not, this is not the place. If people feel so strongly about it they should PM him or construct a post like yours which talks about changing the name but then also discusses play-testing.
-the name of your map sounds like the old game, thus most players will expect a clone of it and/or the same overall quality... you said yourself it was not your goal, so the only feedback you'll get (if any) for a map that doesn't fit people's expectations will be "your map sucks". We were trying to warn you, you fought against it, and now you've lost the battle.
-the idea is already taken... there are lots of other ideas available, so if your goal is just to improve your skills with the editor just pick anything but this one... Have some respect for the people already working on it and stop arguing about it when we're warning you, it happens and you shouldn't make such a big deal out of it. You lost a battle here too.
-trying to play tough against an entire community won't serve your purpose. Good job, you lost the war. Proof:
Ah haha. Ok. I WILL test this map. Oh wait! Does that mean he's won the war now? Or is it a tie? And oh my! This is a war in the first place! *psh* And to think you said Pottfish was making a big deal out of it.
I'm also not sure where you get the idea that Pottfish is disrespecting other mappers by making a custom map for fun just because it may be similar (I'm not saying it is, but this is your impression) to other maps currently in development. How is that disrespect? He's not saying, "My map is going to be better than your map!"
Now, it may be true that he will lose players due to the name. If he does lose players, it is his loss. Why do you care? If it is because you are trying to help him out then Pottfish should feel special having someone who cares so much about his map's success! If you feel your advice is valid and Pottfish still will not take it, then forget about it. You tried to help him and he refused. No need to pursue the matter.
But anyway, yes, I would like to play test your map.
I'm not taking sides here.. But I thought I'd share my experience with you. There was a point in time where I wasn't very open minded to other peoples advice/opinions/criticism, however it may be interpreted.. Always standing staunch that I was correct. But I learned something and hopefully you can learn from the lesson Iearned as well.
Someone once told me this:
When one person argues there is a flaw in your logic. There is a chance they they are just being hypocritical or whatever.
When two independant parties argue there is a flaw in your logic. There is a chance both of them might be wrong.
When multiple independant parties voice out a flaw in your logic, Chances are high that there is a flaw in your logic. So keep an open mind and try to understand why others justify it as a problem.
Instead of getting all defensive. I suggest you try to pin point the main reasons why people voice out against your idea and consider their validities. If you still feel you are right, there is nothing any of us can do. From my view as a third party, most of the posts here are advice on how you could improve your map to boost it's chances of success.
(When I say independant parties, I mean people that do not no each other personally.)
I am in no way attacking you. I'm just trying to offer some friendly advice. I grew up in an environment with quite a lot of hypercritical people always trying to find fault with me, which was the reason why I initially always fought to defend my ideas despite how flawed my logic sometimes was. People can throw criticism. As what I said in the above clause. If its one person, you might still be right. But if its a few people, its time to take a step back and rethink the logic.
This might not make sense to you now, but keep it in mind. It might make sense one day in the future.
I would actually say there is a fourth option which you failed to address which is the following:
"When multiple independent parties voice out a flaw in your logic, it is likely that people are clinging to a minor flaw voiced by a single individual or a few vocal individuals and blowing it out of proportion. So while it is advisable to keep an open mind and try to understand why others believe it is an issue, sometimes it is important to stand one's ground after ample consideration of the matter at hand and stick to one's opinion."
At any rate, here is my take on the issue. Change the name if you feel like it, but it ultimately is your gain or loss and thus should be your decision to make. People who repeatedly comment on this topic are putting too much stress on a trivial issue.
And for those of you who still are misunderstanding the purpose of this map, it was not a direct competitor to Bibendus's Hive Keeper map (which, by the way, I am highly anticipating!). This map simply uses some basic ideas from DK and then evolved into a map with different gameplay mechanics. It is not meant to be a clone by any stretch.
This game is quite fun. I actually played a map very similar to this in WC3. Forgot what it was called but had a picture of a crypt lord as the logo (worm wars or something EDIT: ah, ash4med knows what I'm talking about). One thing though, the game is incredibly difficult to win at anything over 90 and it just drags on. I think 60 should be the default and then 90 be the max because any game that is over 90 NEVER ends.
And has anyone noticed how Debates is a 'Thought Defense' game so it is one of the two maps in the new TD category... You guys should publish your maps in the TD and Tugs categories so they can move up the popularity system even if they aren't TDs and Tugs! Rodrigo is one step ahead of you guys.
Do I think map unlocking should be promoted? No. But what I don't understand is why so many of you think that these unlocked maps would not be useful for people who want to learn. One of the best ways to learn is through example. Allowing others to see unlocked maps would prove extremely beneficial to people who already have a fairly good grasp of the map editor, but don't know how to do particular things. Now, that being said, I still disagree with the idea of unlocking maps against a mapmaker's will.
Here's an analogy. In the days before lightbulbs, an inventor decides, "It's annoying using candles all the time. I'm going to invent a source of light that can be switched on and off at a moment's notice." Every night the inventor locks his workshop when he goes home. Joe, who has heard of the inventor's work, says, "Hey! If I break into the workshop and utilize some of his ideas on the lightbulb, maybe I can invent another useful creation that will likewise benefit mankind!" A friend of Joe's, known as 'Mapster', specializes in breaking and entering and decides to help Joe.
Okay, so Joe may have a noble cause. He simply wants to create something free for others to benefit from (like creating a fun map for others to play). All that Joe needs is some help in the form of the inventor's ideas. Joe isn't planning on stealing the idea for the lightbulb. He isn't going to take away from the inventor's glory. He's going to make something of his own that merely uses some of the knowledge he gains from looking at the inventor's work. Nothing wrong there. All he needs to do is BREAK INTO THE INVENTOR'S WORKSHOP. Oh wait, maybe that is wrong?
I'm sorry, I recognize the benefit of learning from others, but the fact is that if map creators do not want others to see their work, it is their right to attempt (EVEN IF IT IS FUTILE) to lock their maps just as it is the right of a homeowner to lock his or her house AND you should respect that right. You could say that if a criminal really wants to, he or she could break into one's house so it is futile to lock one's doors... In that case we should write a guide on how to break into homes? This isn't as different as you might make it out to be. Now hear me out. Normally when we think of breaking into a house, we think of an intent to steal. Now, in both cases, maps and one's house, things can be stolen. But, at the same time, someone might merely want to use something and then move on. Let's just say that the person who breaks in simply wants to use the swimming pool to get a workout. Maybe he or she wants to use the microwave to warm up some frozen food because his or her microwave broke. Maybe he or she wants to watch the news so that he or she can be aware of current events. All of this is to gain some benefit without harming the owner just as learning from another user's map is for a benefit and doesn't necessarily hurt the owner. In this way, these two ideas are very similar. You say that there is nothing wrong with promoting how to unlock a map. Yet I doubt you would be okay with someone using your kitchen, pool, or entertainment center without your knowledge even if he or she didn't damage or steal anything.
This isn't about CS vs. OS. It's about respecting privacy.
This post made me smile. I don't know very much about the editor and I don't have time to devote to this kind of thing, but I wish you good luck! Looking forward to whatever maps you and your eventual team make! =D
Your Hero Line Wars map in WC3 was fun and the SC2 one looks like it's coming along nicely. =)
Yes, I miss that feeling a lot. Especially because the popular maps are often quite similar in basic gameplay. TDs and tugs for example. I liked seeing completely new gametypes in WC3, but in SC2 most maps on the top of the list are pretty much the same... and even when a map that innovates somehow makes it to the top, after a few weeks... well, that gets old too. Not saying that maps can't entertain me for more than a few weeks. In WC3 I played SWAT and Fortress Survival for months. Rather, I like trying new maps too in addition to the maps that last me a long time and with the current system, fun new maps just don't turn up very often.
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@zZBlackhawkxZz: Go
lol. There it is. That word 'everyone' again. I play Starbattles and I think VoidCraft looks significantly better with the massive scope of the player controlled ships.
As for not being hosted on US, did Eiviyn definitively say that? I've only seen comments that said she was still looking for some way to host it on US.
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Well. I see despite dismissing my idea all those months ago you finally decided to put in a deck customization feature. Now I will play this map again. But, 100000 exp to unlock deck customization? That's a lot. You should let users make their own decks at something like 10000 exp after they've played a few games with the random deck... (I couldn't find an updated thread for your project clord so that's why I'm posting here). Thanks for adding this at all though. I was going to test out the deck builder right now since I just unlocked it last night but bnet is down.
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So I played 3 games. 1 Very Hard and 2 Insane. Lost the Very Hard and won the 2 Insane (but I 7RRed in the insane games so that's sort of a cheese tactic I guess, I was impressed how the AI responded in one of the games though).
I'm not ranked in 1v1 but I win 50/50 with my friends who are all diamond or platinum so I'm realistically probably platinum but potentially low diamond (I watch a ton of GSL and have played around 300 2v2 games so that's how I manage being decent at 1v1 without playing =P). Anyway, I always beat Blizzard Very Hard AI... but I never let the game become a macro game. Against Blizzard AI the way it goes is as follows: When I'm Terran - AI gets an early army advantage and pushes. I scout the push and build a bunker. Repair bunker and hold off push. AI is stupid and sacrifices units while trying to attack my bunker while I'm repairing and pumping out units. Counter push and win. When I'm Protoss - AI gets an early army advantage and pushes. I FF ramp. AI is stupid and sacrifices units while trying to get past FF. Counter push and win. When I'm Zerg - 7RR (haha, I suck with zerg but this always decimates AI, Blizz AI has NO idea how to stop 7RR) I'm a random player btw.
Against your AI: P (Me) v T (Very Hard) AI early pushed with bigger army (like Blizz AI) but backed out instead of being stupid and getting split by my FF when it saw I had 5 sentries. Blizz AI would have sacrificed army at this point and I would have pushed out to win. The AI out-macroed me and I lost in the end. It stayed about one base ahead of me the whole game. 3 base vs 4 base in the end. The final battle I only had 120 supply vs 200 and I had no banked minerals. I couldn't keep up since I was down a base the whole game.
Notable AI Flaws:
- When I trapped the AI's army with FFs, the AI's left 8 SCVs it had pulled from the line to help defend sitting behind the FFs trying to attack. First of all, the AI had a better or at least comparable army anyway (MMM against Zealot Stalker Sentry at same supply) so it shouldn't have pulled SCVs off the line (or at least not EIGHT SCVs). Secondly, the AI had a bunker in front of its natural but chose to move out to engage my army even after it had just scouted it with a marine. Not sure why it decided to move out and then immediately try to run (unsuccessfully since I FFed it) as soon as it engaged me in the open.
- Drops... The AI tried to do three drops on me (8 marines in each medivac). All three of them went straight through the center of the map. I picked off two of the fully loaded dropships with stalkers. One of them I took out on purpose because I scouted it... but the other I didn't even control my units and they automatically followed the dropship to kill it since the medivac flew straight into my army and agroed my stalkers o.O
Z (Me) vs Z (Insane) I was impressed by the AI here. The AI fast expanded but still did a decent job of delaying the loss (especially compared to blizzard AI). EagleAI didn't try to build any drones after it saw my Roach army. Instead it spammed lings and placed Spine Crawlers. The AI really should have pulled some drones though, but never did in this game. Not sure why since it was overzealous with its worker pulling in the PvT game but didn't do it when it was actually necessary in this match. AI overall certainly gave me a run for my money though and I felt it really could have held off my push with a few adjustments. Probably should have canceled the hatchery for one. The AI only had out 6 lings and no crawlers when my 7 roaches arrived at the natural and the hatch was only half done. The AI did cancel a spine crawler it was morphing though when I was about to kill it which was nice to see.
Notable AI Flaws:
- Sacrificed a queen by leaving it by itself after spawning a tumor. The queen just sat between the natural and main (right outside the choke) for 6 or 7 seconds (an eternity in SC). All the lings at the natural had died and the rest of the AI army was in the main near the main hatch...
- Teched to lair. Getting mutas to counter my roaches?* No. Teched to lair to get... wait for it... a NYDUS NETWORK! Perfect counter to 7RR right? Well, sorry AI. Any chance you had to hold off the rush was lost when you made that decision. It probably still would have lost anyway since I had three times the supply by that point, but the AI could have had so many more roaches.
- This isn't as important, but I felt the building placement was rather poor. The tech buildings were towards the front of the base away from the hatchery. This is easily scoutable in general which is bad, but it was especially bad in this game since the AI decided to put the spinecrawler right next to the hatch (makes sense for protecting drones, but unfortunate for the AI since I can pick off the tech, even the spawning pool...). Either put the basic tech behind the mineral lines or closer to hatchery front, or put spinecrawler closer to choke.
Z (Me) vs P (Insane) I 7RRed. P didn't put up much of a fight. Had 1 zealot, 1 stalker, and 1 sentry when I got there.
Notable AI Flaws:
- Engaged me. Bad idea. Should have moved back and FFed the ramp to buy time. Instead the AI lost the stalker and zealot and pulled 6 probes off the line to help.
- Okay, if you insist on engaging, then pulling probes is a good idea. FF ramp after pulling probes and then leaving probes right behind the FF where they can still be hit? Bad idea. Leaving the probes is so bad already that the rest seems trivial, but the AI also left his sentries right behind the FF. Even if the probes hadn't been there... the point of using FF isn't so that the sentries can continue to sit in full view of the roaches and die. It's to allow the sentries to move away and be safe from the roaches while the Protoss warps in stalkers and zealots.
- Using 2 FFs on ramp that can be blocked with 1 FF. One thing an AI at Insane level should be able to do flawlessly is cast an FF that blocks a choke... this is the kind of thing that a human can mess up but that an Insane level AI should get automatically. Why did it cast two FFs? It's not like the AI can get too jumpy and hit F twice on accident like a human can =P Or is this a realism factor? haha
Overall, I'm very impressed with this AI and hope you continue to smooth out the flaws.
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@RodrigoAlves: Go
You complain consistently over a prolonged period of time and you think he's complaining more than you are with a single post?
What is the reason you even care about this so much that you complain all the time? Is it because you want people to be able to discover your maps since you think they will enjoy them and you just want to spread happiness, or is it because you want to be popular? If it's the former, then there is nothing wrong with complaining. Just acknowledge that you do complain a lot. If there is a valid reason for the complaint, you shouldn't feel bad about it. The fact that you're denying that you complain often makes it seem like you do feel there is a level of invalidity to your whining and leads to the suspicion that you care more about fame.
Do not feel the need to respond as I will not be revisiting this thread.
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@Maknyuzz: Go
Blizzard could do that. It would be perfectly allowed if there is no rule in the GSL against it. However, you can be sure that GSL would ban that in future rules, the Blizzard employee would no longer be good enough without his trick, and people would frown upon that employee for doing that in the first place. But should he get banned? No, any player could have done it. But this exploit wouldn't pay off for the employee regardless since everyone would know s/he didn't really deserve the wins. Winning at the expense of image. The same applies in the case of the map system. I personally don't care, but apparently Blizzard's image is being harmed by 'cheating' like this. At the same time, there is nothing inherently wrong with it.
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Do you have any plans to release this on US when you finish it? This map looks awesome!
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This game is awesome. I play this custom exclusively now =D Keep up the great work! Looking forward to your future updates!
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Was that supposed to be a reply to me? It looks more like it is directed to the TC. But anyway, I agree with what you are saying, but I don't believe that is the main problem in itself the TC has with the responses to this thread. I agree that a more descriptive name should be used and that DK is probably more commonly heard of by SC2 players than one would expect (I think I've read about it. Is that the game where you build your own dungeon and then go there once a day?). However, the issue here is that a majority of the posts on this thread are entirely focused on the name and people are not addressing the actual topic. Good advice or not, this is not the place. If people feel so strongly about it they should PM him or construct a post like yours which talks about changing the name but then also discusses play-testing.
Ah haha. Ok. I WILL test this map. Oh wait! Does that mean he's won the war now? Or is it a tie? And oh my! This is a war in the first place! *psh* And to think you said Pottfish was making a big deal out of it.
I'm also not sure where you get the idea that Pottfish is disrespecting other mappers by making a custom map for fun just because it may be similar (I'm not saying it is, but this is your impression) to other maps currently in development. How is that disrespect? He's not saying, "My map is going to be better than your map!"
Now, it may be true that he will lose players due to the name. If he does lose players, it is his loss. Why do you care? If it is because you are trying to help him out then Pottfish should feel special having someone who cares so much about his map's success! If you feel your advice is valid and Pottfish still will not take it, then forget about it. You tried to help him and he refused. No need to pursue the matter.
But anyway, yes, I would like to play test your map.
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I would actually say there is a fourth option which you failed to address which is the following:
"When multiple independent parties voice out a flaw in your logic, it is likely that people are clinging to a minor flaw voiced by a single individual or a few vocal individuals and blowing it out of proportion. So while it is advisable to keep an open mind and try to understand why others believe it is an issue, sometimes it is important to stand one's ground after ample consideration of the matter at hand and stick to one's opinion."
At any rate, here is my take on the issue. Change the name if you feel like it, but it ultimately is your gain or loss and thus should be your decision to make. People who repeatedly comment on this topic are putting too much stress on a trivial issue.
And for those of you who still are misunderstanding the purpose of this map, it was not a direct competitor to Bibendus's Hive Keeper map (which, by the way, I am highly anticipating!). This map simply uses some basic ideas from DK and then evolved into a map with different gameplay mechanics. It is not meant to be a clone by any stretch.
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This game is quite fun. I actually played a map very similar to this in WC3. Forgot what it was called but had a picture of a crypt lord as the logo (worm wars or something EDIT: ah, ash4med knows what I'm talking about). One thing though, the game is incredibly difficult to win at anything over 90 and it just drags on. I think 60 should be the default and then 90 be the max because any game that is over 90 NEVER ends.
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And has anyone noticed how Debates is a 'Thought Defense' game so it is one of the two maps in the new TD category... You guys should publish your maps in the TD and Tugs categories so they can move up the popularity system even if they aren't TDs and Tugs! Rodrigo is one step ahead of you guys.
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Do I think map unlocking should be promoted? No. But what I don't understand is why so many of you think that these unlocked maps would not be useful for people who want to learn. One of the best ways to learn is through example. Allowing others to see unlocked maps would prove extremely beneficial to people who already have a fairly good grasp of the map editor, but don't know how to do particular things. Now, that being said, I still disagree with the idea of unlocking maps against a mapmaker's will.
Here's an analogy. In the days before lightbulbs, an inventor decides, "It's annoying using candles all the time. I'm going to invent a source of light that can be switched on and off at a moment's notice." Every night the inventor locks his workshop when he goes home. Joe, who has heard of the inventor's work, says, "Hey! If I break into the workshop and utilize some of his ideas on the lightbulb, maybe I can invent another useful creation that will likewise benefit mankind!" A friend of Joe's, known as 'Mapster', specializes in breaking and entering and decides to help Joe.
Okay, so Joe may have a noble cause. He simply wants to create something free for others to benefit from (like creating a fun map for others to play). All that Joe needs is some help in the form of the inventor's ideas. Joe isn't planning on stealing the idea for the lightbulb. He isn't going to take away from the inventor's glory. He's going to make something of his own that merely uses some of the knowledge he gains from looking at the inventor's work. Nothing wrong there. All he needs to do is BREAK INTO THE INVENTOR'S WORKSHOP. Oh wait, maybe that is wrong?
I'm sorry, I recognize the benefit of learning from others, but the fact is that if map creators do not want others to see their work, it is their right to attempt (EVEN IF IT IS FUTILE) to lock their maps just as it is the right of a homeowner to lock his or her house AND you should respect that right. You could say that if a criminal really wants to, he or she could break into one's house so it is futile to lock one's doors... In that case we should write a guide on how to break into homes? This isn't as different as you might make it out to be. Now hear me out. Normally when we think of breaking into a house, we think of an intent to steal. Now, in both cases, maps and one's house, things can be stolen. But, at the same time, someone might merely want to use something and then move on. Let's just say that the person who breaks in simply wants to use the swimming pool to get a workout. Maybe he or she wants to use the microwave to warm up some frozen food because his or her microwave broke. Maybe he or she wants to watch the news so that he or she can be aware of current events. All of this is to gain some benefit without harming the owner just as learning from another user's map is for a benefit and doesn't necessarily hurt the owner. In this way, these two ideas are very similar. You say that there is nothing wrong with promoting how to unlock a map. Yet I doubt you would be okay with someone using your kitchen, pool, or entertainment center without your knowledge even if he or she didn't damage or steal anything.
This isn't about CS vs. OS. It's about respecting privacy.
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This map looks like a lot of fun. I'll try to bump it up when I have time and I hope others can do the same =)
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This post made me smile. I don't know very much about the editor and I don't have time to devote to this kind of thing, but I wish you good luck! Looking forward to whatever maps you and your eventual team make! =D
Your Hero Line Wars map in WC3 was fun and the SC2 one looks like it's coming along nicely. =)
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Yes, I miss that feeling a lot. Especially because the popular maps are often quite similar in basic gameplay. TDs and tugs for example. I liked seeing completely new gametypes in WC3, but in SC2 most maps on the top of the list are pretty much the same... and even when a map that innovates somehow makes it to the top, after a few weeks... well, that gets old too. Not saying that maps can't entertain me for more than a few weeks. In WC3 I played SWAT and Fortress Survival for months. Rather, I like trying new maps too in addition to the maps that last me a long time and with the current system, fun new maps just don't turn up very often.