Strafe is ment to be used in fight, so if player suddenly presses it it locks turning. It can be cause of damage of Banshee. Maybe it should be moved to WASD or even binded to Shift? Did you like to use it? How often did you use it? Would you use it more if it was in toggle mode?
I mostly moved forward and backward to the target while being rotated correctly. I didn't use it in combat for the most part. I think a toggle switch would have been more helpful. Binding it to shift would also be a good idea, I think. The space and ctrl keys are also good candidates for this kind of stuff.
but there is no auto turn to pickup items and not planned to do. Maybe you fast pressed A or D while ending to move? It causes to turn almost without controlling aircraft.
Hmm, strange. Maybe some collision effect? I don't know.
I will try to understand this material in video, in my level of english =)
Most of it is about using special games to teach at schools. But it has some relevance for us, too, I think.
I will try to summarize: Same as you have to learn the letters to read books or forum posts, you have to learn how to play games. In this case it is about how to use a controller for example, or what terms like XP or HP mean. Using WASD for movement is also a common case of game literacy, many, many games use it for movement control, but not every player is literate enough to try this first.
I played through dark souls on the WASD + IJKL combination for the two hands. I am literate in double hand keyboard control. Many players won't be, because they didn't play games like dark souls without a mouse or actually use a game controller for it.
Ok, I suppose the tabbing explains a lot. No hard feelings.
Cycling in the watchcom I probably wouldn't have found on my own either. I knew it due to Trievas review and deltrons video.
What I was meaning to say is, that despite this the watchcom is set to the first objectives by default, so you have two flags which stand out on the map... Ok I suppose these could also mean anything... I guess I can concede this point.
So I read the first few comments, then watched the first ten minutes of deltrons playthrough and then tried it myself.
I am with glorn, in that this discussion started shamefully.
Loadscreen: It even has the "waiting to press key" option enabled in order for the player to read what is written (almost complete rundown of controls!). I can only rant about players at this point, because: hey there is a loadscreen and the creator gives us an opportunity to read it all ... maybe we need to know this stuff?! Same for bnet tutorials. I know that most players don't look at those, but I don't really ahve a lot of respect for those. Are they expecting to get a full tutorial on every startup of the game, possibly delaying other players experience with it (this is not only about banshee strike but in general)? Ok, done ranting...
Next thing is the watchcom: well, if you don't know what to do, you can press the two keys suggested at the start: W - Lift Off and tab - Watchcom. The watchcome has a map with two nice markers on it which you could (maybe?) check out? Shoot these two and you get dialogue on how to continue.
Maybe this is an example of game literacy, I dont know...
edit: [In regards to game literacy: To me the controls felt intuitive (except in A/D in watchcom). WASD are move controls in sooo many games. JKLIOP is not so common, but also a reasonable option for putting your other hand. They are nicely grouped, which makes it easy for me to remember what is what: JKL row: attacks from strongest to weakest. IOP row (I would have preferred UIO) is the 'others' grouping. Strafe might have had a nicer place on 'space' you can use either thumb while pressing multiple buttons and because it is a movement control.]
Now to the actual critizicm of the map:
- As people have pointed out before, there are controls which are unusable for some (numpad) and some which are hard to find (A/D in watchcom)
- I would prefer the strafe to be a toggle instead of a hold button. If it isn't have to grab something like: two move keys + hold 4 + 1/2/3 to shoot what I try to target
- a targetting reticle would be nice (could it change color if over an enemy? I am asking because of the battlecruisers for which it is not directly clear where to shoot), maybe also have it as a toggle. An alternative solution could be a lock on as in dark souls and then you switch through the targets with some keys (although I suspect this is not the preferred solution since it is in an arcade tradition)
- The controls are not that bad (then again, I am someone who played through dark souls on keyboard only, so who am I to judge usability of controls). Maybe reduce the effect on the controls a little. Also, something people might have missed: there is an automated turn towards items to pick up. Maybe increase the range on this a little.
- The Watchcom (tab) is a good design in that it is economic to make and still looks quite nice! But as others pointed out, I also would have preferred minimap/ammo/fuel to be on the mainscreen in some way (maybe arrange them as togglable on the edges of the screens as if they were displays in an actual attack helicopter).
- What would have been great is a log, which let you display all previous communications. In addition to above suggestion, you could put the other half of your UI (unit stats, item decriptions, etc.) together with the log into a briefings screen.
- I didn't end the map in victory, because I couldn't figure out where to bring the orange container, before running out of fuel+lives, which I presume is the last thing you need to do before winning. (log for communcation pls. Or another method of making (some) objectives easier to look up)
- since tutorials were brought up, after the initial check sequence you could have like a mini-mission, which makes the player check his systems before starting. This means like a prompt: check that fuel and ammo are loaded [hint to press tab for watchcom or the respective key to turn on ammo and fuel hud in my above suggestion]; check briefing link is working: prompt player to use A/D to toggle through targets and 1/2/3 to display info on it.
- The controls are easy to remember, but you are probably gonna have to give people a screen where the controls are listed Banshee Field Manual! let them feel they are being unprofessional pilots by being unprepared (meaning: do NOT make them feel unprofessional, it is gonna come and bite you, as satisfactory as it may feel at first).
In conclusion: Coyc, if you are reading this, I feel your pain in having to spoon feed players and make sure they never get unconfortable, sadly this is part of the audience and you kind of have to design for it (ok, now I am really done ranting). What would actually keep me interested at this point, would be more difficulty. I feel like I don't have to worry about being shot down (even without banshee cloak). I think what is there actually is nicely crafted for the most part!
the difference in a normal conversation and a vacuum cleaner for example is 10 dB allready (factor of 10).
You could try to determine the sound pressure of an exported sc2 sound with the one of one of your files. If the sc2 sound is 5 times as loud as your sound, there is probably nothing you can do but increasing the sound outside of sc2.
I am not sure, but is it practical to change the parent data object of the other sounds, so they have -10 dB (for example) to begin with? Would mean your players have to turn up the volume for the map though.
You could also use this method to determine how much louder you have to make your sounds before importing. (i.e. revert the parent back afterwards)
edit:
depending in what your sound is used for, you could also implement the sound as an alert. Then all other sounds are reduced to a percentage specified in the alert, while it plays.
Well under 'Map -> Map Prooperties' there's a 'disable observers' tick box I presume nobody can obs if you enable that.
Under 'Map -> Player Properties' there is a drop down menu 'Default Observed: [Player number]'. I haven't plpayed around with this, so I don't know what exactly it does.
I know that in private games the host can make other players observers or referees by right clicking on them or by inviting more people then the map has player spots for (they become observers automaticly). I presume this would be disabled with above tick box. I don't think this is possible for publich games though. Maybe the 'Default Observed' menu can help you with that.
On the other hand I could well imagine that Blizz disabled observers for public games in general in order to prevent team mates which place one obs as map-hack.
That is possible, too. But which transition do you mean? DoW I -> DoW II or DoW II -> DoW III?
I know that Soulstorm was by another studio, but I don't have that many issues with Soulstorm as others have (besides the abyssmal patch support). I also know THQ bankrupted a while ago.
Or was there another team within Relic working on DoW II?
edit:
Ok, I did some research. I presume with hostile take over you mean the one by THQ some months before the release of DoW I. The transition from DoW I to DoW I:WA is the only one with a major disconuity in design and balance teams.
I guess this supports the theory of the devs not understanding the vision in the first place, given the low presence of the original designers in the add-ons. On the other hand: they had years to relearn these things before DoW II.
Nontheless the take over is an interesting detail I wasn't aware of before.
sidenote: funny find: Balance designer on Dark Crusade and lead balance designer on Soulstorm: Tae Yeon (David) Kim.
Then comes the dilemma, would you fix the attributes that players find as distinctive to the game? Unlike minecraft, what if you highly suspect those distinctive attributes were not desired by the original creator? Furthermore, friends see the attributes as serious broken flaws that absolutely needs fixing.
Lets talk about dawn of war I and II for a second. I loved dawn of war. It was the perfect blend of superfast rts action (quite a bit faster then a six-pool zerg rush) while maintaining classic base building and thus strategic decisions. Well, DoW I was left to rod in favor of developing DoW II. This game would abolish this feature that wouldn't was not intended to be in a table top game and just a relic of of the old rts formula. It was only there because the devs didn't find a better way in the first place.
Which feature? Base-building.
I played the beta and didn't touch DoW II since. The story above as to why it was removed is my speculation. But my theory is, that relic must have been surprised by DoW I's success and that they did not understand its appeal at all. I think they wanted to make a game that was very close to a table top game, with focus on using terrain and tactics and thought that base building was only distracting from what made their game fun. DoW III will have base building again from what I can tell from the early trailers.
Why am I telling you this? The thing the designer perceives as a flaw may have had an appeal the designer did not understand in the first place, so be careful with ripping out such things.
But by the end of the day there is an even more important consideration - I think - then what the original designer wanted or what the players want: Will YOU enjoy working on it if you reimplement the mechanic and stash your idea? I presume you are not doing this for money, but as a hobby. Keeping up your own motivation trumps every other reason then in my opinion.
tl;dr: I think what it boils down to is, that there is no supereffective solution to this. I know, it sucks. What you can do is design your map in a way that it is palyable, if one player is doing nonsense. You will most likely only get rid of them by getting them bored with what they do or decide to stop on their own volition for some other reason. Threatening/ reporting/ banning them doesn't really work because they will just make another starter account. You should really read the first link i posted at least. That's what happens when your counter meassures backfire.
It is maybe a little off-topic, but since a few people here have some experience in a more professional frame: How versatile does one have to be to be a "game designer". Is this not a term that integrates level designers, item designers, mechanics designers, ... I am making up names here, but it is actually not like this? That people have their specialties and most of the time work on these?
You can also download older drivers from the nvidia website and install the version from before the update 3 weeks ago. If it is the recent driver, that caused it, this might be a simple solution, too.
Do you have a second monitor/ video card you can try to use instead? Does it also occure with a different vc/monitor? (find out whether it's an issue of either of the two)
Can you restore your system to a state before these two weeks? Does it still occure? (see if it is some software/driver update that conflicts)
Are there any suspicious software changes within these two weeks? Video card driver update (unlikely in my amateurish opinion), adobe flash update for instance?
Everyone works on a local copy of the map. In the repository this can be set up as a branch. every now and then you merge the branches to make one version out of the local copies. The repository will deterime all differences for you and you can go through all and decide which branches change you want to have in the merged version.
I used to play Dota (wc3), LoL and Heroes of Newerth when the latter two were new, is this of any interest to you?
edit: If I answer, should I answer from the perspective of when I played these games?
edit2: looked through the surveys, is it intentional, that for some games you only ask about skins and for others you ask about bought heroes and hero usage?
I don't know how many of you have seen it, but one of the more recent episodes of extra credits that was basicly about what incentivices campanies to hire game designers and how to properly train aspiring game designers. Spoiler: It is not intimate knowledge with the engine which is used.
Funny side note: I definetly concure on the math part. I have seen two major games doing horrible things to the variables attack speed and attack cooldown recently:
SC2, where attack speed as labled for attack cooldown in the weapon info, which logicly would make you assume higher attack speed value = higher rate of fire
and GalCiv3 where you the tooltips say increase attack speed by X% and what they do is reduce attack cooldown by X%, which is actually pretty horrible when these numbers add up to 95% and a weapon shoots 20 times as much instead of twice as much... I am digressing...
Apart from that, I think it would be a rather nice touch if Blizz people would at least probe the community for potential hires. Regardless on whether they might interested in working in a AAA game scale team or rather would like to continue spinning their own wheels in a small project.
Then again why would you change a running system, where people are creating stuff for your brand for free and you can take whatever great idea you want at anytime (can we call this EULA-nuking?).
edit:
Also on the issue of people coming up with (/stealing) the same idea. I would even go one step further then saying it is possible: Get used to it.
My current take on the world is that there are more and more people start doing intellectual work (scientific, engineering, artistic, whatever) and through the internet in particular the amount of people who are able (since there is most often an inspiration aspect) to get a certain creative idea increases, too. As well as these people having the tools (e.g. Galaxy editor) to implement this idea.
To take it even one step further: I think we might cease to have singular personalities like Einstein since the field becomes way closer, what these people is still exceptional, but it might not stand out anymore, since there are many people very close to the same point.
Ok, enough on that topic now, I am feeling pretentious now ...
0
I mostly moved forward and backward to the target while being rotated correctly. I didn't use it in combat for the most part. I think a toggle switch would have been more helpful. Binding it to shift would also be a good idea, I think. The space and ctrl keys are also good candidates for this kind of stuff.
Hmm, strange. Maybe some collision effect? I don't know.
Most of it is about using special games to teach at schools. But it has some relevance for us, too, I think.
I will try to summarize: Same as you have to learn the letters to read books or forum posts, you have to learn how to play games. In this case it is about how to use a controller for example, or what terms like XP or HP mean. Using WASD for movement is also a common case of game literacy, many, many games use it for movement control, but not every player is literate enough to try this first.
I played through dark souls on the WASD + IJKL combination for the two hands. I am literate in double hand keyboard control. Many players won't be, because they didn't play games like dark souls without a mouse or actually use a game controller for it.
0
Ok, I suppose the tabbing explains a lot. No hard feelings.
Cycling in the watchcom I probably wouldn't have found on my own either. I knew it due to Trievas review and deltrons video.
What I was meaning to say is, that despite this the watchcom is set to the first objectives by default, so you have two flags which stand out on the map... Ok I suppose these could also mean anything... I guess I can concede this point.
0
So I read the first few comments, then watched the first ten minutes of deltrons playthrough and then tried it myself.
I am with glorn, in that this discussion started shamefully.
Loadscreen: It even has the "waiting to press key" option enabled in order for the player to read what is written (almost complete rundown of controls!). I can only rant about players at this point, because: hey there is a loadscreen and the creator gives us an opportunity to read it all ... maybe we need to know this stuff?! Same for bnet tutorials. I know that most players don't look at those, but I don't really ahve a lot of respect for those. Are they expecting to get a full tutorial on every startup of the game, possibly delaying other players experience with it (this is not only about banshee strike but in general)? Ok, done ranting...
Next thing is the watchcom: well, if you don't know what to do, you can press the two keys suggested at the start: W - Lift Off and tab - Watchcom. The watchcome has a map with two nice markers on it which you could (maybe?) check out? Shoot these two and you get dialogue on how to continue.
Maybe this is an example of game literacy, I dont know...
edit: [In regards to game literacy: To me the controls felt intuitive (except in A/D in watchcom). WASD are move controls in sooo many games. JKLIOP is not so common, but also a reasonable option for putting your other hand. They are nicely grouped, which makes it easy for me to remember what is what: JKL row: attacks from strongest to weakest. IOP row (I would have preferred UIO) is the 'others' grouping. Strafe might have had a nicer place on 'space' you can use either thumb while pressing multiple buttons and because it is a movement control.]
Now to the actual critizicm of the map:
- As people have pointed out before, there are controls which are unusable for some (numpad) and some which are hard to find (A/D in watchcom)
- I would prefer the strafe to be a toggle instead of a hold button. If it isn't have to grab something like: two move keys + hold 4 + 1/2/3 to shoot what I try to target
- a targetting reticle would be nice (could it change color if over an enemy? I am asking because of the battlecruisers for which it is not directly clear where to shoot), maybe also have it as a toggle. An alternative solution could be a lock on as in dark souls and then you switch through the targets with some keys (although I suspect this is not the preferred solution since it is in an arcade tradition)
- The controls are not that bad (then again, I am someone who played through dark souls on keyboard only, so who am I to judge usability of controls). Maybe reduce the effect on the controls a little. Also, something people might have missed: there is an automated turn towards items to pick up. Maybe increase the range on this a little.
- The Watchcom (tab) is a good design in that it is economic to make and still looks quite nice! But as others pointed out, I also would have preferred minimap/ammo/fuel to be on the mainscreen in some way (maybe arrange them as togglable on the edges of the screens as if they were displays in an actual attack helicopter).
- What would have been great is a log, which let you display all previous communications. In addition to above suggestion, you could put the other half of your UI (unit stats, item decriptions, etc.) together with the log into a briefings screen.
- I didn't end the map in victory, because I couldn't figure out where to bring the orange container, before running out of fuel+lives, which I presume is the last thing you need to do before winning. (log for communcation pls. Or another method of making (some) objectives easier to look up)
- since tutorials were brought up, after the initial check sequence you could have like a mini-mission, which makes the player check his systems before starting. This means like a prompt: check that fuel and ammo are loaded [hint to press tab for watchcom or the respective key to turn on ammo and fuel hud in my above suggestion]; check briefing link is working: prompt player to use A/D to toggle through targets and 1/2/3 to display info on it.
- The controls are easy to remember, but you are probably gonna have to give people a screen where the controls are listed Banshee Field Manual! let them feel they are being unprofessional pilots by being unprepared (meaning: do NOT make them feel unprofessional, it is gonna come and bite you, as satisfactory as it may feel at first).
In conclusion: Coyc, if you are reading this, I feel your pain in having to spoon feed players and make sure they never get unconfortable, sadly this is part of the audience and you kind of have to design for it (ok, now I am really done ranting). What would actually keep me interested at this point, would be more difficulty. I feel like I don't have to worry about being shot down (even without banshee cloak). I think what is there actually is nicely crafted for the most part!
0
6 dB is about a factor of 4. So it is not necessarily super loud. here is an example of a dB table for sounds (scroll down a bit):
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm
the difference in a normal conversation and a vacuum cleaner for example is 10 dB allready (factor of 10).
You could try to determine the sound pressure of an exported sc2 sound with the one of one of your files. If the sc2 sound is 5 times as loud as your sound, there is probably nothing you can do but increasing the sound outside of sc2.
I am not sure, but is it practical to change the parent data object of the other sounds, so they have -10 dB (for example) to begin with? Would mean your players have to turn up the volume for the map though.
You could also use this method to determine how much louder you have to make your sounds before importing. (i.e. revert the parent back afterwards)
edit:
depending in what your sound is used for, you could also implement the sound as an alert. Then all other sounds are reduced to a percentage specified in the alert, while it plays.
0
Well under 'Map -> Map Prooperties' there's a 'disable observers' tick box I presume nobody can obs if you enable that.
Under 'Map -> Player Properties' there is a drop down menu 'Default Observed: [Player number]'. I haven't plpayed around with this, so I don't know what exactly it does.
I know that in private games the host can make other players observers or referees by right clicking on them or by inviting more people then the map has player spots for (they become observers automaticly). I presume this would be disabled with above tick box. I don't think this is possible for publich games though. Maybe the 'Default Observed' menu can help you with that.
On the other hand I could well imagine that Blizz disabled observers for public games in general in order to prevent team mates which place one obs as map-hack.
0
@DrSuperEvil: Go
That is possible, too. But which transition do you mean? DoW I -> DoW II or DoW II -> DoW III?
I know that Soulstorm was by another studio, but I don't have that many issues with Soulstorm as others have (besides the abyssmal patch support). I also know THQ bankrupted a while ago.
Or was there another team within Relic working on DoW II?
edit:
Ok, I did some research. I presume with hostile take over you mean the one by THQ some months before the release of DoW I. The transition from DoW I to DoW I:WA is the only one with a major disconuity in design and balance teams.
I guess this supports the theory of the devs not understanding the vision in the first place, given the low presence of the original designers in the add-ons. On the other hand: they had years to relearn these things before DoW II.
Nontheless the take over is an interesting detail I wasn't aware of before.
sidenote: funny find: Balance designer on Dark Crusade and lead balance designer on Soulstorm: Tae Yeon (David) Kim.
edit2: sorry for derailing this thread like this.
0
Lets talk about dawn of war I and II for a second. I loved dawn of war. It was the perfect blend of superfast rts action (quite a bit faster then a six-pool zerg rush) while maintaining classic base building and thus strategic decisions. Well, DoW I was left to rod in favor of developing DoW II. This game would abolish this feature that wouldn't was not intended to be in a table top game and just a relic of of the old rts formula. It was only there because the devs didn't find a better way in the first place.
Which feature? Base-building.
I played the beta and didn't touch DoW II since. The story above as to why it was removed is my speculation. But my theory is, that relic must have been surprised by DoW I's success and that they did not understand its appeal at all. I think they wanted to make a game that was very close to a table top game, with focus on using terrain and tactics and thought that base building was only distracting from what made their game fun. DoW III will have base building again from what I can tell from the early trailers.
Why am I telling you this? The thing the designer perceives as a flaw may have had an appeal the designer did not understand in the first place, so be careful with ripping out such things.
But by the end of the day there is an even more important consideration - I think - then what the original designer wanted or what the players want: Will YOU enjoy working on it if you reimplement the mechanic and stash your idea? I presume you are not doing this for money, but as a hobby. Keeping up your own motivation trumps every other reason then in my opinion.
PS: thumps up for the ascii flow chart <3
0
I really liked "Lord of War". It has some really mean sense of humor at some points.
I am also an odd ball for liking the 3rd "Die Hard" best. And since we allready are in the nineties action movies: "The Rock".
These are the first 3 that came to my mind, I am probably missed some others I really liked.
0
Not what you want to hear, but here is some food for thought (in case you didn't find these threads):
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/development/triggers/73266-permanently-ban-player-arcade-map/
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/general/general-chat/116880-question-about-banning-systems/#p14
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/general/general-chat/120182-lobby-trolls-kick-features-and-starter-accounts/#posts
tl;dr: I think what it boils down to is, that there is no supereffective solution to this. I know, it sucks. What you can do is design your map in a way that it is palyable, if one player is doing nonsense. You will most likely only get rid of them by getting them bored with what they do or decide to stop on their own volition for some other reason. Threatening/ reporting/ banning them doesn't really work because they will just make another starter account. You should really read the first link i posted at least. That's what happens when your counter meassures backfire.
0
It is maybe a little off-topic, but since a few people here have some experience in a more professional frame: How versatile does one have to be to be a "game designer". Is this not a term that integrates level designers, item designers, mechanics designers, ... I am making up names here, but it is actually not like this? That people have their specialties and most of the time work on these?
0
You can also download older drivers from the nvidia website and install the version from before the update 3 weeks ago. If it is the recent driver, that caused it, this might be a simple solution, too.
0
Do you have a second monitor/ video card you can try to use instead? Does it also occure with a different vc/monitor? (find out whether it's an issue of either of the two)
Can you restore your system to a state before these two weeks? Does it still occure? (see if it is some software/driver update that conflicts)
Are there any suspicious software changes within these two weeks? Video card driver update (unlikely in my amateurish opinion), adobe flash update for instance?
0
My first guess would be a repository.
Everyone works on a local copy of the map. In the repository this can be set up as a branch. every now and then you merge the branches to make one version out of the local copies. The repository will deterime all differences for you and you can go through all and decide which branches change you want to have in the merged version.
0
I used to play Dota (wc3), LoL and Heroes of Newerth when the latter two were new, is this of any interest to you?
edit: If I answer, should I answer from the perspective of when I played these games?
edit2: looked through the surveys, is it intentional, that for some games you only ask about skins and for others you ask about bought heroes and hero usage?
0
I don't know how many of you have seen it, but one of the more recent episodes of extra credits that was basicly about what incentivices campanies to hire game designers and how to properly train aspiring game designers. Spoiler: It is not intimate knowledge with the engine which is used.
Funny side note: I definetly concure on the math part. I have seen two major games doing horrible things to the variables attack speed and attack cooldown recently:
SC2, where attack speed as labled for attack cooldown in the weapon info, which logicly would make you assume higher attack speed value = higher rate of fire
and GalCiv3 where you the tooltips say increase attack speed by X% and what they do is reduce attack cooldown by X%, which is actually pretty horrible when these numbers add up to 95% and a weapon shoots 20 times as much instead of twice as much... I am digressing...
Apart from that, I think it would be a rather nice touch if Blizz people would at least probe the community for potential hires. Regardless on whether they might interested in working in a AAA game scale team or rather would like to continue spinning their own wheels in a small project.
Then again why would you change a running system, where people are creating stuff for your brand for free and you can take whatever great idea you want at anytime (can we call this EULA-nuking?).
edit:
Also on the issue of people coming up with (/stealing) the same idea. I would even go one step further then saying it is possible: Get used to it.
My current take on the world is that there are more and more people start doing intellectual work (scientific, engineering, artistic, whatever) and through the internet in particular the amount of people who are able (since there is most often an inspiration aspect) to get a certain creative idea increases, too. As well as these people having the tools (e.g. Galaxy editor) to implement this idea.
To take it even one step further: I think we might cease to have singular personalities like Einstein since the field becomes way closer, what these people is still exceptional, but it might not stand out anymore, since there are many people very close to the same point.
Ok, enough on that topic now, I am feeling pretentious now ...