I've managed to figure out why my waves weren't behaving correctly. 1-2 more days of fixing/adjusting and I will upload a first playable version of my map. Because it is still an early version I will refrain from creating a thread on battle.net and announce it publically. I will be relying on you guys to help me improve it.
Guess who changed his design again (see attached image)?
As you can see the eggs are now all together in one place, close to the middle ramp. Reason I did i was to satisfy the coop guideline "Design moments where the players need to fight together, and moments where they need to fight apart." Now all enemy units can destroy the eggs, not just the Ascendants. This will have players split their forces when they want to attack an Ascendant while an enemy wave is incoming.
Objectives now:
- Slay the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/4) - Do Not Let 20 Eggs Be Destroyed (0 destroyed)
To save some space I repositioned the bases/expansions and the first boss. The rest of the map is practically untouched. I feel confident that I will not need to make very big changes anymore (also I'm running out of time).
Btw. you see the reintroduction of the caves. I was thinking of using them in some way for the bonus objective, but nothing's been decided yet.
I tried that before I tried the cave. Problem was if you order multiple units to a point they will remain in a mini-formation, so not all units might go where you think. Also some players tend to give an order multiple times (e.g. right-click often), so if some units have already been teleported they would be ordered back to the original teleport spot.
Another idea I have now is to just modify the Nydus mechanic. Make units pop out much faster (all at once maybe), or even make the exit Nydus pop them out automatically, but that would only work in a two-way system (like the teleport). The thing is, the current level layout doesn't need it, Designing the level around this mechanic causes more problems with spacing in other areas.
Yes forgot to mention that. After some testing I realized that it's too much micro-management. Order units into cave, wait for them to be all inside, then order them outside at the exit. It's not much faster than just ordering your units from A to B. I still want to add some sort of mini-feature that separates this map from others.
There's still a lot to do. Hopefully I can finish all gameplay by the end of March. Then make terrain and publish in in the first week of April.
I didn't add a third main objective. Ithink highlight tooltips and the fact that the Void Crystals heal the bosses should be enough to make people aware that they need to be destroyed before a boss can be killed. Although I consider making them killable if there is enough concentrated damage.
- Slay the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/4)
- Ascendants Must Not Drain 20 Eggs (0/20)
The bosses can attack the eggs via very long ranged attacks, but I'm considering making them attackable by standard enemies as well.
Currently I'm refining the level layout and placing enemies. I'm testing the map now without any enemy waves (will come later).
This map is a constant battle^^ going back and forth between ideas.
So... I was actually happy with the boss fights.... Even when I split the bosses into groups of 1/2/3/4. But then I started adding the enemy bases, and now the bosses seem almost negligible and way too similar to the Void Thrashing/Rifts to Korhal maps.
I'm currently reverting it back to having four distinct bosses, but each one is protected by 1/2/3/4 moving Void Crystals (a bit like the last Amon map) which have to be destroyed first. Only problem now is that I might have tro add a third main objective...
The Nyduses ARE caves. I just wrote Nyduses because I didn't need to explain the mechanic anymore.
The "problem" is trying to break away from the gameplay Blizzard has provided so far, while still maintaining the routine you mention plus making the map as accessible as possible. I haven't played that many RTC maps, but so far the only one who's sucessfully done that in my opinion is Narudek's Mothership map.
Yeah, I'll just have to test to see how many of these Nyduses I should place so all commanders feel the benefit, but Kerrigan's ability still is supreme.
At the moment the players' starting bases are separate, so preplaced Nyduses would help.
- Getting the bosses to work with objectives (attack the eggs when no players units are around)
- Testing various level design layouts. The bosses need a lot of space; I tried some variation where they are grouped and very close together. Now I'm trying the opposite and they are very far apart. Looks better but need to test it more.
- Separate starting bases
- Testing some sort of neutral Nydus Worm that can transport player units quickly. Might not add it if it feels uneccessary or like it takes away from co-op commander traits (is there a commander with a Nydus Worm?).
I have barely implemented any enemy bases. The current map design is just to test the bosses/objectives, so the map design will most definitely change once I add the enemy bases. (Boss distribution/activation is now 1-2-3-4).
I remember that SC players used to hate the Command&Conquer super abilities like Nukes, because there was nothing you could do against them unless you destroyed your opponents Nuke-building. With the goal of trying to make the Warcraft games and the Starcraft games as different as possible I would leave out heroes in Starcraft 3. I could still see them add an XP-system for all units though, and I remember at some point in development of SC2 they actually tried that.
I wouldn't say terrible. More like inspirational with some necessary tweaking^^
One thing I have learned from this thread is to not focus on single big targets, but instead split them into multiple ones. At the very least havethe players complete some sort of mini-objectives first (e.g. devices that power the boss) before allowing them to attack the boss directly.
1) As he said the boss would only explode once he reaches the base. I would add a specific objectives that need to be protected, and multiple bosses that arrive in waves (very similar to the Void Launch map). You could try the opposite version where you had to escort a boss like this. You would have to make sure it's pathing is unhindered (I tried this, but using the Zerus tileset I couldn't find a logical reason to block building pathing).
2) I agree that players already use damage types. I would either make it more simple (e.g. ranged vs melee attacks, or ground vs. air attacks) or add multiple bosses, and the more you damage one, the stronger it gets. The effect will cool down over time, during this time the players can focus on one of the other bosses.
3) Instead of creep I would add a simple effect (see Slivan boss from HotS-Supreme) where the ground gets covered in some stuff which damages/slows player units.
4) see 2)
5) I tried multiple phases for some of my bosses, but that was when there weren't that many of them. I also think it's important to not make stuff too complex, so I try not to add too many abilities for each boss.
Cool ideas. I've created 4 bosses so far. All of them are stationary or semi-stationary (wander behaviour like critters), so one that actually attacks bases could be cool.
Currently the objectives are:
- Slay the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/11)
- Do Not Let 20 Eggs Be Destroyed (0/20)
Gameplay:
Most of the Bosses (Primal Pack Ascendants) will be duplicate around the map. They will be activated in a 1-2-2-3-3-style and spread around the map similarly to the Mist Opportunities co-op map. Transmissions and timers will warn the players when the Bosses are about to become active, but they can be activated by just attacking them prematurely. The objective "Do Not Let 20 Eggs Be Destroyed" acts as a timer for this map. Each Boss has around 10 eggs around him. When the boss becomes active and no player unit is nearby he will attack the eggs around him. The boss will always focus on nearby players first and his player-focused abilities will not harm the eggs; By attacking a boss a player can stall the process of destroying eggs.
Story:
Zerus occupied by Amon's Forces blabla Amon has corrupted Primal Pack Ascendants which will kill important eggs blabla.
Current state:
4 bosses finished so far; no plans (yet) to add more. I'm currently working on having bosses interact with eggs and interfering players (almost finished). As soon as I'm done I will do some tests with multiple (possibly 11, activated in a 1-2-2-3-3 style) bosses. Have not yet worked on enemy waves (or special Hybrid attacks for that matter). Want to make sure that bosses and objectives work properly and are fun first! Will work on terrain after gameplay is finished.
Hmm good thinking. Might have to think of something.
I'm also aware of long-range and air units, something boss battles don't usually account for.
edit: hmmm I don't really want to throw away another idea, so I was thinking about adding some sort of powering devices that have to be killed before a boss can be killed, or have units be near the boss, but that sounds like making it too complicated.... so now i'm thinking, what if I just add multiple bosses on each area? could be chaotic, but in a fun way...
Now I just have to find a new name for these "Primal Pack Leaders"
---- So it's like this now: - Kill the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/10) - No Primal Pack Ascendant Must Escape
Story: Amon has attacked Zerus. The Primal Pack Ascendants have sworm allegiance to Amon if his forces help them get away from the planet (or some other alibi story).
Gameplay: Groups of minibosses are scattered around the map: (4 groups of 1/2/3/4 bosses with same/similar attacks). Whenever a group is killed the player gets a bit more time to kill the next group.
First boss is a giant Ravager with slow but hard-hitting Corrosive Bile attacks.
Second group of bosses are giant plants that spawn Spore Rays with Planet Cracker-like abilities^^
Third group will probably be some Primal Hives (no abilities thought of yet).
Fourth group will be a variation of Yagdra (and possibly some Ash Worms).
Additional stuff: Player bases will be seperated, first boss will guard the expansions, which is between the player bases. Might add some caverns which allow quick access from one spot to another (like the Tram system in the Nova mission pack).
I'm writing this, because, apparently I'm way too inexperienced with the co-op mode. So maybe you guys have some tips or ideas.
0
I've managed to figure out why my waves weren't behaving correctly. 1-2 more days of fixing/adjusting and I will upload a first playable version of my map. Because it is still an early version I will refrain from creating a thread on battle.net and announce it publically. I will be relying on you guys to help me improve it.
0
Guess who changed his design again (see attached image)?
As you can see the eggs are now all together in one place, close to the middle ramp. Reason I did i was to satisfy the coop guideline "Design moments where the players need to fight together, and moments where they need to fight apart." Now all enemy units can destroy the eggs, not just the Ascendants. This will have players split their forces when they want to attack an Ascendant while an enemy wave is incoming.
Objectives now:
- Slay the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/4)
- Do Not Let 20 Eggs Be Destroyed (0 destroyed)
To save some space I repositioned the bases/expansions and the first boss. The rest of the map is practically untouched. I feel confident that I will not need to make very big changes anymore (also I'm running out of time).
Btw. you see the reintroduction of the caves. I was thinking of using them in some way for the bonus objective, but nothing's been decided yet.
0
I tried that before I tried the cave. Problem was if you order multiple units to a point they will remain in a mini-formation, so not all units might go where you think. Also some players tend to give an order multiple times (e.g. right-click often), so if some units have already been teleported they would be ordered back to the original teleport spot.
Another idea I have now is to just modify the Nydus mechanic. Make units pop out much faster (all at once maybe), or even make the exit Nydus pop them out automatically, but that would only work in a two-way system (like the teleport). The thing is, the current level layout doesn't need it, Designing the level around this mechanic causes more problems with spacing in other areas.
0
Yes forgot to mention that. After some testing I realized that it's too much micro-management. Order units into cave, wait for them to be all inside, then order them outside at the exit. It's not much faster than just ordering your units from A to B. I still want to add some sort of mini-feature that separates this map from others.
There's still a lot to do. Hopefully I can finish all gameplay by the end of March. Then make terrain and publish in in the first week of April.
0
See attached screenshot.
I didn't add a third main objective. Ithink highlight tooltips and the fact that the Void Crystals heal the bosses should be enough to make people aware that they need to be destroyed before a boss can be killed. Although I consider making them killable if there is enough concentrated damage.
- Slay the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/4)
- Ascendants Must Not Drain 20 Eggs (0/20)
The bosses can attack the eggs via very long ranged attacks, but I'm considering making them attackable by standard enemies as well.
Currently I'm refining the level layout and placing enemies. I'm testing the map now without any enemy waves (will come later).
0
This map is a constant battle^^ going back and forth between ideas.
So... I was actually happy with the boss fights.... Even when I split the bosses into groups of 1/2/3/4. But then I started adding the enemy bases, and now the bosses seem almost negligible and way too similar to the Void Thrashing/Rifts to Korhal maps.
I'm currently reverting it back to having four distinct bosses, but each one is protected by 1/2/3/4 moving Void Crystals (a bit like the last Amon map) which have to be destroyed first. Only problem now is that I might have tro add a third main objective...
0
The Nyduses ARE caves. I just wrote Nyduses because I didn't need to explain the mechanic anymore.
The "problem" is trying to break away from the gameplay Blizzard has provided so far, while still maintaining the routine you mention plus making the map as accessible as possible. I haven't played that many RTC maps, but so far the only one who's sucessfully done that in my opinion is Narudek's Mothership map.
0
Yeah, I'll just have to test to see how many of these Nyduses I should place so all commanders feel the benefit, but Kerrigan's ability still is supreme.
At the moment the players' starting bases are separate, so preplaced Nyduses would help.
0
Currently working on (See attached screenshot):
- Getting the bosses to work with objectives (attack the eggs when no players units are around)
- Testing various level design layouts. The bosses need a lot of space; I tried some variation where they are grouped and very close together. Now I'm trying the opposite and they are very far apart. Looks better but need to test it more.
- Separate starting bases
- Testing some sort of neutral Nydus Worm that can transport player units quickly. Might not add it if it feels uneccessary or like it takes away from co-op commander traits (is there a commander with a Nydus Worm?).
I have barely implemented any enemy bases. The current map design is just to test the bosses/objectives, so the map design will most definitely change once I add the enemy bases. (Boss distribution/activation is now 1-2-3-4).
Currently the objectives are:
- Slay the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/10)
- Do Not Let 10 Eggs Be Destroyed (0/10)
0
I remember that SC players used to hate the Command&Conquer super abilities like Nukes, because there was nothing you could do against them unless you destroyed your opponents Nuke-building. With the goal of trying to make the Warcraft games and the Starcraft games as different as possible I would leave out heroes in Starcraft 3. I could still see them add an XP-system for all units though, and I remember at some point in development of SC2 they actually tried that.
0
I don't know that game.
0
I wouldn't say terrible. More like inspirational with some necessary tweaking^^
One thing I have learned from this thread is to not focus on single big targets, but instead split them into multiple ones. At the very least havethe players complete some sort of mini-objectives first (e.g. devices that power the boss) before allowing them to attack the boss directly.
1) As he said the boss would only explode once he reaches the base. I would add a specific objectives that need to be protected, and multiple bosses that arrive in waves (very similar to the Void Launch map). You could try the opposite version where you had to escort a boss like this. You would have to make sure it's pathing is unhindered (I tried this, but using the Zerus tileset I couldn't find a logical reason to block building pathing).
2) I agree that players already use damage types. I would either make it more simple (e.g. ranged vs melee attacks, or ground vs. air attacks) or add multiple bosses, and the more you damage one, the stronger it gets. The effect will cool down over time, during this time the players can focus on one of the other bosses.
3) Instead of creep I would add a simple effect (see Slivan boss from HotS-Supreme) where the ground gets covered in some stuff which damages/slows player units.
4) see 2)
5) I tried multiple phases for some of my bosses, but that was when there weren't that many of them. I also think it's important to not make stuff too complex, so I try not to add too many abilities for each boss.
0
Cool ideas. I've created 4 bosses so far. All of them are stationary or semi-stationary (wander behaviour like critters), so one that actually attacks bases could be cool.
Currently the objectives are:
- Slay the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/11)
- Do Not Let 20 Eggs Be Destroyed (0/20)
Gameplay:
Most of the Bosses (Primal Pack Ascendants) will be duplicate around the map. They will be activated in a 1-2-2-3-3-style and spread around the map similarly to the Mist Opportunities co-op map. Transmissions and timers will warn the players when the Bosses are about to become active, but they can be activated by just attacking them prematurely. The objective "Do Not Let 20 Eggs Be Destroyed" acts as a timer for this map. Each Boss has around 10 eggs around him. When the boss becomes active and no player unit is nearby he will attack the eggs around him. The boss will always focus on nearby players first and his player-focused abilities will not harm the eggs; By attacking a boss a player can stall the process of destroying eggs.
Story:
Zerus occupied by Amon's Forces blabla Amon has corrupted Primal Pack Ascendants which will kill important eggs blabla.
Current state:
4 bosses finished so far; no plans (yet) to add more. I'm currently working on having bosses interact with eggs and interfering players (almost finished). As soon as I'm done I will do some tests with multiple (possibly 11, activated in a 1-2-2-3-3 style) bosses. Have not yet worked on enemy waves (or special Hybrid attacks for that matter). Want to make sure that bosses and objectives work properly and are fun first! Will work on terrain after gameplay is finished.
0
I would like for the game to become slower again and have fewer units, similar to Wings of Liberty. Now it's just too much for me to handle.
0
Hmm good thinking. Might have to think of something.
I'm also aware of long-range and air units, something boss battles don't usually account for.
edit: hmmm I don't really want to throw away another idea, so I was thinking about adding some sort of powering devices that have to be killed before a boss can be killed, or have units be near the boss, but that sounds like making it too complicated.... so now i'm thinking, what if I just add multiple bosses on each area? could be chaotic, but in a fun way...
Now I just have to find a new name for these "Primal Pack Leaders"
---- So it's like this now:
- Kill the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/10)
- No Primal Pack Ascendant Must Escape
Story: Amon has attacked Zerus. The Primal Pack Ascendants have sworm allegiance to Amon if his forces help them get away from the planet (or some other alibi story).
Gameplay: Groups of minibosses are scattered around the map: (4 groups of 1/2/3/4 bosses with same/similar attacks). Whenever a group is killed the player gets a bit more time to kill the next group.
First boss is a giant Ravager with slow but hard-hitting Corrosive Bile attacks.
Second group of bosses are giant plants that spawn Spore Rays with Planet Cracker-like abilities^^
Third group will probably be some Primal Hives (no abilities thought of yet).
Fourth group will be a variation of Yagdra (and possibly some Ash Worms).
Additional stuff: Player bases will be seperated, first boss will guard the expansions, which is between the player bases. Might add some caverns which allow quick access from one spot to another (like the Tram system in the Nova mission pack).
I'm writing this, because, apparently I'm way too inexperienced with the co-op mode. So maybe you guys have some tips or ideas.