I'm not going to lie, this whole thing has turned into a money grabbing scheme, where blizzard is just trying to grab money from another group of players because League of Legends is successful, every idea except 1 or 2 i have heard of has been terrible :P and it actually screams that they are copying Tofu, play tofu then listen to the ideas of theirs.... its sad, because it wont work out well for them... and now its most likely going to be standalone which is even worse.
It's a free-to-play game. If nobody spends money, they make no money. Clearly it's not a "money-grabbing scheme." Also, considering All-Stars was announced before TOFU, I find this pretty silly. Especially since only 5 or so employees have played the game, and they are on the community team.
@Sixen: Go
and blizzard is NOT good at making games in genres they are unfamiliar with especially on battle.net, Example, Left 2 die, Auir Chef, and Starjeweled, were all terrible I got the achievements and then didnt play them again. Then theres Diablo 3, where they pretty much removed too much of the diablo and tried to put it into the hero arena genre without PVP. I mean, I just dont think it will turn out well and they just keep tarnishing their reputation, WoW players are upset with them, Diablo players are furious(not to mention the unfair bans on the D3 forums go to any post with over 5 pages and 60% is deleted post the CMs should be fired from over there and replaced). and the starcraft 2 community is not happy with them, though HoTS does help a lot.
lol... Blizzard revolutionized the RTS, RPG, and MMO genres before ever releasing an RTS, RPG, or an MMO. Clearly they're bad at making games in genres they're unfamiliar with, right?
@Sixen: Go
Just because health is the one constant factor in any damage equation doesn't mean that the end result is always the same. Every other factor varies, including the type of the damage. Specialized resistances naturally follow from that and the end result is that you are stronger against some things and weaker against others. That's not just a conceptual difference.
Very true, the idea here is to make it simpler though. Removing the need to do math on the fly (Lion's Finger, Zeus' Ult, etc, won't kill someone because of their armor and spell resist, even though they deal more dps than the current health pool type situations) is their goal.
@Sixen: Go
Limiting the selection to just 16 items is an unnecessarily extreme response. You can have a decent item selection without being as ridiculous as DotA. Such choices as opting for sustainability (regen/lifesteal) versus large pools (health/mana), burst damage (pure damage) versus sustained damage (attack speed) are going to be totally neglected in Blizzard All-Stars. That ties heavily into the lack of stat choices as well.
More refined or more limited?
16 seems like an extremely small amount compared to the 100+ of DotA, I agree with that. Regardless though, like I said above, it's all about combinations, being restricted to what's available, and having to make those tough decisions. I'm sure they'll add more items (and they're definitely adding more heroes).
@Sixen: Go
To each his own. The point of my post wasn't really to actually argue the points (sorry, I probably overdid that). I just meant to say that your videos didn't really come across as stating Blizzard's point of view so much as advocating it. I wanted to watch them to get informed but got irritated when I continually disagreed with what you were saying. :P
No worries at all, it's completely understandable. Like I said though, the goal was just to inform the public behind Blizzard's decisions and rationale... For now, ;).
I don't want to offend, but your series gives off this huge sense of fan-boy-ism. I mean, it makes sense, and it's fine to be really devoted to one particular company's products, but you failed to acknowledge any other point of view.
The main part of this initial series isn't really to critique these new gameplay mechanics, but simply to inform the masses about them, as well as the rationale behind what went into implementing them. Things can and likely will still change, once we have a physical game in our hands is when I will start analyzing the mechanics in much more depth.
@Sixen: Go
I for one disagree with many of the things said both by you and Blizzard. Things like "armor is just a hidden form of health" or "weapon speed is just a hidden form of damage" are totally ignorant. A variety of stats and item effects increases the uniqueness of gameplay by more than the sum of its parts.
Ex.:
Weapon speed is more useful to heroes with abilities that proc on attack or items that proc on attack.
Armor and Spell Resist are not just hidden forms of health. They make you strong against some enemies but the investment leaves you weak against others.
Things like lifesteal and health regeneration provide sustainability but again, the investment means you may be lacking in damage or health, which, as an example, may leave you weak to burst damage.
At the end of the day though, they are just hiddens forms of another stat: armor and spell resist are two different reductions to damage that goes towards your main health pool. I agree they are different conceptually, but again, the end result is that your hp is drained by x.
@Sixen: Go
Without this variety there will never be a reason to vary your item selection... One set of items will always be best on a particular hero, even moreso if you can only buy four items.
I also disagree with this statement, the idea here is to not overload the player with similar heroes and similar items, but to create less, more distinct heroes and items. You can only have 4 of 16 items, that's a possibility of almost 4000 different item combinations. When each item plays a different role, you'll need to use different items for different situations.
@Sixen: Go
Also, the notion of a siege hero was based on very faulty premises. Yes, the objective of the game is to destroy the enemy's base, but the purpose is not to do that by outranging towers. Such an idea, at least in my opinion, takes the fun out of the game. Yes, you can say that if a siege hero is attacking your tower uninhibited, then it is your fault for not defending it - but then, if you always defend against these siege heroes, they have no purpose. So they are a subtraction from the game in both cases.
Really all this did was give a more refined role to heroes that are good a pushing lanes and keeping the pressure on (i.e: Nature's Prophet, Tinker, etc).
@Sixen: Go
I know your video series was meant to be informational, but a truly informational series would present more than just one point of view. You raised no questions.
Again, that wasn't my goal here, at this point in time, ;). In the future, once we've all gotten a chance to thoroughly delve into the content will I take a more analytical approach.
I actually really like this new system as well, aside from what you've mentioned, someone like Dazzle in DOTA will do a ton of healing and not even get an assist, because he didn't do any damage to the enemy, so this takedown system should be great.
@Sixen: Go
I highly prefer shared rewards over the k/d/a system (As for score, it'd be nice if they kept k/d/a, but made the person who dealt the most damage get the kill point. No extra reward included, or just a little, like 20-30% more gold)
IMO, worst case scenario, they could just do takedowns (which is a combination of kills and assists) and deaths in a scoreboard... That'd be ideal, ;).
@Sixen: Go
I also really like the idea of gold per team on scoreboard instead of just a simple kills comparison - It's far more accurate. Its easy to have more kills than the enemy team but less money.
I actually wasn't a big fan of this to begin with, but after I thought some more about it, I actually came to a very similar conclusion.
@Sixen: Go
Maybe they could just make you get +5 gold on each last hit in addition to what you usually get, maybe limit it to once per 5 seconds or 2-3 times per minion wave, so that there is a bit of incentive to actually hit the minions.
If they did this, there's still a bonus (and thus an advantage) for those who are last hitting, which means the skill curve remains the same.
@Sixen: Go
I can't remember how the health globe system works though, it might be a good replacement. Maybe make last hits increase health globe drop chance?
Basically: you kill the flagbearer minion and it drops a health globe 100% of the time, which gives you health/mana.
@Sixen: Go
I want to see this in action though. I'm not entirely sure whether I like it that minions can just be ignored completely - There's a battle going on, and you just ignore it.
Possibly toward the end-game, this may happen, but it also happens in games like DOTA. Regardless, minions (specifically the flagbearer) can turn the tide of battle, let's say you kill him in the middle of your fight, you can then gain an advantage via the globe.
Did Blizzard really say they were thinking of adding collectible items too? Like the leoric's crown and stuff. This is the first I've heard of that, but if it's true it sounds pretty awesome.
Yup! This is how hero customization will work, that being a great example. Let's say there's a Leoric hero (which there isn't, at least not yet), if you win X games with him, you unlock a different looking crown, etc. Perhaps you'll be able to purchase these customizations as well, instead.
Still cant believe they removed K/D/A's just so the losers wouldnt Whine... That really Irritates me, they did that same crap on SC2 Quick Matches... Now I cant see if My Ratio is getting better or not... and it is REALLY irritating, and all because little jimmy is a bitch...
I was a bit skeptical at first as well, but think about it a little further. When you're playing in a game of DOTA2, you're all about playing for yourself if you're in a pub. You engage the enemy, someone else runs in and steals your kill by getting the last hit... Now you're angry. If you're on a pre-made team, getting takedowns is almost the same as just getting an assist, so what are we looking at here? Encouraging more teamwork for pubs and keeping the same amount of teamwork for pre-mades. Seems like a pretty solid system imo, ;).
blizzard is going for so casual, you can set all spells to autocast
Not necessarily, they're just giving the game their traditional "easy to learn, difficult to master" approach. They are adding some features to the game that will help shrink the learning curve, but at the same time, there is still complex strategy involved, like: team composition, ganking, laning, pushing, teamwork, stats, etc, :).
Over the last few weeks I've done a ton of research (aside from actually sitting in at the BlizzCon panels over the years and playing the game myself) and brushing up on my Blizzard All-Stars knowledge, and finally decided to begin my informational series for the game. I've been playing a lot of DOTA2 recently, which is what sparked my renewed interest in All-Stars. Sure, the game isn't out quite yet, but why should this stop us from hyping it up?
If you want to learn about Blizzard All-Stars, watch my series! I released the first episode today (9/19) and will be following it up with more episodes I've already planned out, covering known gameplay mechanics, heroes, items, and then of course, some speculation and suggestions.
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ModeratorsIt's a free-to-play game. If nobody spends money, they make no money. Clearly it's not a "money-grabbing scheme." Also, considering All-Stars was announced before TOFU, I find this pretty silly. Especially since only 5 or so employees have played the game, and they are on the community team.
lol... Blizzard revolutionized the RTS, RPG, and MMO genres before ever releasing an RTS, RPG, or an MMO. Clearly they're bad at making games in genres they're unfamiliar with, right?
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ModeratorsVery true, the idea here is to make it simpler though. Removing the need to do math on the fly (Lion's Finger, Zeus' Ult, etc, won't kill someone because of their armor and spell resist, even though they deal more dps than the current health pool type situations) is their goal.
16 seems like an extremely small amount compared to the 100+ of DotA, I agree with that. Regardless though, like I said above, it's all about combinations, being restricted to what's available, and having to make those tough decisions. I'm sure they'll add more items (and they're definitely adding more heroes).
No worries at all, it's completely understandable. Like I said though, the goal was just to inform the public behind Blizzard's decisions and rationale... For now, ;).
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ModeratorsThe main part of this initial series isn't really to critique these new gameplay mechanics, but simply to inform the masses about them, as well as the rationale behind what went into implementing them. Things can and likely will still change, once we have a physical game in our hands is when I will start analyzing the mechanics in much more depth.
At the end of the day though, they are just hiddens forms of another stat: armor and spell resist are two different reductions to damage that goes towards your main health pool. I agree they are different conceptually, but again, the end result is that your hp is drained by x.
I also disagree with this statement, the idea here is to not overload the player with similar heroes and similar items, but to create less, more distinct heroes and items. You can only have 4 of 16 items, that's a possibility of almost 4000 different item combinations. When each item plays a different role, you'll need to use different items for different situations.
Really all this did was give a more refined role to heroes that are good a pushing lanes and keeping the pressure on (i.e: Nature's Prophet, Tinker, etc).
Again, that wasn't my goal here, at this point in time, ;). In the future, once we've all gotten a chance to thoroughly delve into the content will I take a more analytical approach.
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ModeratorsWhew, sorry about the late response, but I finally got it done, :).
Truth, although I feel like this was an obvious one since they also removed your losses from the stats screen in Melee, :(.
I actually really like this new system as well, aside from what you've mentioned, someone like Dazzle in DOTA will do a ton of healing and not even get an assist, because he didn't do any damage to the enemy, so this takedown system should be great.
IMO, worst case scenario, they could just do takedowns (which is a combination of kills and assists) and deaths in a scoreboard... That'd be ideal, ;).
I actually wasn't a big fan of this to begin with, but after I thought some more about it, I actually came to a very similar conclusion.
If they did this, there's still a bonus (and thus an advantage) for those who are last hitting, which means the skill curve remains the same.
Basically: you kill the flagbearer minion and it drops a health globe 100% of the time, which gives you health/mana.
Possibly toward the end-game, this may happen, but it also happens in games like DOTA. Regardless, minions (specifically the flagbearer) can turn the tide of battle, let's say you kill him in the middle of your fight, you can then gain an advantage via the globe.
Yup! This is how hero customization will work, that being a great example. Let's say there's a Leoric hero (which there isn't, at least not yet), if you win X games with him, you unlock a different looking crown, etc. Perhaps you'll be able to purchase these customizations as well, instead.
I just put up the fourth episode as well, I'll consider putting up the full list, we'll see, ;).
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ModeratorsI was a bit skeptical at first as well, but think about it a little further. When you're playing in a game of DOTA2, you're all about playing for yourself if you're in a pub. You engage the enemy, someone else runs in and steals your kill by getting the last hit... Now you're angry. If you're on a pre-made team, getting takedowns is almost the same as just getting an assist, so what are we looking at here? Encouraging more teamwork for pubs and keeping the same amount of teamwork for pre-mades. Seems like a pretty solid system imo, ;).
Not necessarily, they're just giving the game their traditional "easy to learn, difficult to master" approach. They are adding some features to the game that will help shrink the learning curve, but at the same time, there is still complex strategy involved, like: team composition, ganking, laning, pushing, teamwork, stats, etc, :).
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ModeratorsOver the last few weeks I've done a ton of research (aside from actually sitting in at the BlizzCon panels over the years and playing the game myself) and brushing up on my Blizzard All-Stars knowledge, and finally decided to begin my informational series for the game. I've been playing a lot of DOTA2 recently, which is what sparked my renewed interest in All-Stars. Sure, the game isn't out quite yet, but why should this stop us from hyping it up?
If you want to learn about Blizzard All-Stars, watch my series! I released the first episode today (9/19) and will be following it up with more episodes I've already planned out, covering known gameplay mechanics, heroes, items, and then of course, some speculation and suggestions.