Anyway, autoadjust is there to compensate for the event of players leaving. It automatically scales arena size and round duration based on number of active players. So if you want to play with your own time limit or arena size you'll need to turn it off. I thought I'd do some updating with HotS, but HotS came and left me mostly uninspired (thus only HotS thing in map is a widow-mine bomber model). I'm kinda not mapping now, so future is probably bleak. Maybe LotV will grant us some amazing assets that I'll just have an urge to add, but I'm keeping my expectations low.
Oh whaat, I have completely forgotten about this.. again D:
Don't feel like working on bomber at all. Been making a dream RPG map of mine until it came to a point where my imaginary practical experience just couldn't match my ambition. So to gain skills needed to make my big RPG I'm now making a separate smaller scoped RPG, wc3 style. And god, for the lack of fantassy assets, progress-impeding is the kindest word I can use. <</rant>>
So yea, but if someone feels like playing bomber with me don't hesitate to thrown an invite my way (Though most people who play with me end up being sad, never to play it again).
I thought of using some of those concepts for a "joker" powerup that would grant random positive or negative effects such as impact kick or or making unfortunate player to be kickable by other players. It was meant as an extra hidden item to bring in chaotic imbalance into the field if players for some reason wished so. Wanted to have at least 20 random effects, but couldn't quite come up with the list, so some of those suggestions are actually quite good for that purpose.
Also, I have a powerup in the game called shield, it has a max stack of 2 and each one makes you invincible for 1.5 seconds when you're hit by a bomb =D
Just to clear things up, I'm not the best ideas suggester in the world :P . While I come up with decent ideas based on what I know, it will usually clash with what developers know or plan for their map. Unless you like my idea(s) so much that you'd like to hear a more fitting suggestion, I'd appreciate if you sort out the idea 'behind the scenes'. I'm not a developer of your map and am less interested in hearing justifications.
Okay, the thing is if something doesn't doesn't feel right to me it's useful to pinpoint the exact reason, and it seems fairer for poster than to just "yes" or "no". And if I misunderstood something, poster can alert me to that fact. But it does take some time to translate thoughts into words. And sometimes even after all the words my writing fails to convey the thought process behind it =|
About friendliness, yeah, it's good design to make it easy for beginners to to get into game, but when concerning sc arcade, this discussion makes me want to go on rampage, digging out all beginner friendly maps and shout pointing fingers at them "where are their players"? So yes, while it's good to have it, it's just one of the things that adds to the whole, and is unable to draw in players by itself.
Before I forget, if you're interested in implementing trap items/bombs like the proxy mine then I hope you'll include forcefield bombs (like what sentries use from melee).
Fun fact: last 2 items I planned to implemet were mine (spider mine model) and "block" item that would create a wall. I couldn't figure decent mechanics for mine, and block thing.. just didn't happen. Though as of now I suddenly have a pretty good understanding how mine should work. he-he-he
How about we call it Blasterbots 2: For map nights :P . I'm confident with your mapping experience it should be rather quick and easy rebuilding another blasterbots map but it's entirely up to you.
Aaw man, I actually always wanted to make a map and then release a sequel called either "*MAPNAME* 2: *COOL WORD*" or "Super *MAPNAME*". NES era was awesome. And while I'm tempted to create "Super Blasterbots", I don't feel that there would be enough content to justify new name. But I really want to now that you've mentioned it T_T.
noob friendliness = more players = more pros in the making = more pros
I don't think friendliness applies here. There are certain things that can attract mass SC2 demographics to a map and blasterbots has none of those. It's a very situational map that can not be continuously played unlike some others creations out there =/
While the game is easy enough to learn and play, something feels 'hidden'. I'm sure there's a specific strategy you use like waiting for enemies to move into dead ends or something.
It’s not quite that, but yea, there are some general unspoken rules of play that you realize after playing for a while. protip: waiting for anything usually makes you *BOOM*
Reduce the movement speed of our units and/or increase the time taken for bombs to explode. This allows us more time to digest what's happening on the map, come up with an appropriate plan of action, then carry it out.
Would it not make the game much slower? It takes bomb 4 seconds to explode naturally, and starting speed is quite slow. So slow in fact that I consider speed powerup the most OP thing in the game. Still it's something that can be tried out by making a checkbox in options. Would act akin to blizzards practice mode where standard game speed is way slower.
Though compared to bomberman, this game is very slow.
Make us easier to kill. Even in the original bomberman, it was very micro-intensive trying to chase down and trap opponents in some little space. Scared players would likely run forever making it almost impossible to catch XD. Reducing movement speed could be one way. Another us giving us more tools to trap enemies. Maybe an item that slows down other players or proxy mines, cloaked or visible, can be set on certain grids.
I .. don't know about that. Every time I play all I see is people walking into their own explosions, people trapping themselves in corners, people blowing up themselves via remote, people dying to unnoticed pierce bombs, people failing to escape tracer bombs, and oftentimes just being unable to outrun sudden death :<
One misstep is all it takes to die. And if someone runs away, take the center, and watch them come to you when timer hits 30 seconds and blocks begin to fall.
Easier to return to the action. Some bomberman games allowed you to float along the edge throwing bombs into the arena, after dying. If you scored a hit you could return to the game. This makes things more forgiving and encourages players to have continue playing and have fun.
I thought about doing something like this, but the classic way you're describing wouldn't work with scaling arena sizes like I have. There are more concerns to this (for example extra attention drain to living players), but since I don't see a good way to implement it there isn't much point talking about it.
Allow us to start with certain items. Like the remote or kick bomb so that it's slightly easier to demolish blocks at the beginning for items.
+
Fairer gameplay. It sometimes seems like an advantage to anyone who hordes more items first. Maybe after every minute, buff all players with something like bigger explosions or faster movement.
If you’re curious about how that would work out – it’s possible for “host” player to modify amounts of both starting and spawning items. If you desire so you can remove all powerup drops and make all players start with 5 power/bombs + kick/remote.
Varied sudden death. Instead of having the map space blocked from the edges inward, you could have raining nukes or a spawned invincible AI bomberman. Just something to change up our response so we're not always rushing towards the middle.
Sudden death cannot be something that falls on your head and makes you lose out of the blue. The game abides to one principle - if you died it was entirely your fault. Except the chance of you getting nothing while your enemy is showered with 8/8 bombs/power + remote&line. But I haven't seen game generate anything like this yet =D
..But yea, for longest time I wanted to add another random death pattern where it sweeps from one random side to other, so that fortifying in center wouldn't be a superior choice for late-game. Problem is, my coding back then was abysmal, thus opening up trigger editor in balterbots makes me want to jump out of a window from a ten story building x_x
But this actually reminded me that with 2.1 arcade release it would be wise to show the map some love. If anything it's a way to dissipate burnout from other project =D
Spawning random 1-2 hit enemies feels like a wrong thing to do at this time. I won't just add stuff until I feel compelled by it. But making things like ghost stage where you've got many slow moving wall-passing monsters seems kinda cool. Yes, maybe a themed monster spawn is the way to explore this mechanic. Now, I when will I have time to work on bomber again..
@kuvasz88: Go
You can zoom out the same way you zoom out when you're dead if you disable camera autofollow (camera icon near name toggle icon in options panel).
As for monsters, it's something that would be awesome to have and something I wanted to do from very beginning (in fact maps first tests were single player vs AI monsters like in a classical bomberman). But the thing is, in a 3+ player game killing monsters becomes trivial. I wanted to make something cool with 4 players minimum but couldn't find that magical formula.
But what I wanted even more that that was a 1 vs 12 AI on huge map experience. Unfortunately AIs were also coded back in beginning stages when I didn't even have multiple stage sizes, so they're unoptimized to play in anything but the default tiny box (will drain maps performance horribly on map sizes bigger than 3). I still hold hopes to someday design a better, less lame AI.
Anyway, to you question, how would you like to see monsters implemented? Just spawn random monsters into arena for them to bother everyone?
@OceanFlex: Go
You don't even have to upload anything, just create an empty project and you'll become author of it ->author as title, at least that's how I see it.
You're selling yourself short, I remember that one time when you drastically increased Kerrigans breasts, a certain person was overjoyed by the results of your work, eagerly showing people in irc images that I'm still not sure why I remember, I guess like true art it touched me in a way I didn't quite realized at first.
But I understand that creating ducks is a complicated matter, one should not approach such task with careless state of mind. Someday, when we're both better at what we do this grand idea will come into fruition, just not right now.
(off topic, why is duck a regular shmoe? how's that system work?)
You're promoted to author once you upload something or create a project (even if it's a placeholder). But I like the sound of regular shmoe title more, so I remain that.
I will, if you make a quality model for that. I'm not even kidding. Just except shitting it would randomly spawn a bunch of duck looking blocks, matryoshka style. You'd have to make those too.
Fughting godzilla-sized ducks does come off as a battle against impossible odds doesn't it? ;D
For 3., I didn't mean the block would soak up explosions, I just meant bombs couldn't be placed on them. This might make endgame zoning out easy though, so it might not be a good idea altogether, or you'd need to make the placement algorithm ignore the centre of the map.
Ah I see. Still, bomb blockers equal safer enviroment, you'd go there if you want to increase your chances of survival against better player. Kinda stale-mate encouraging thing, doesn't feel quite right to me.
For 5., I meant pairs of portals that travel bots between each other, so two-way, and perfectly equal in nature. There could be 2 red, 2 blue, and 2 of every colour you can pick for your bot. The only randomness with them would be their locations, but you already have that with complexity and powerup drops. I do think it's worth a try with at least 1 or 2 pairs at first.
With portals there is also another concern - they demand your attention. Usually you have complete control and info about what's happening around you, and in late game just zoom out a little and again, if you pay attention to what's going on around you'll live. When portals come in play they add another element you need to control - what is happening on the side of the map where second linked portal is placed. I dread a scenario where player is powerless to save himself cause there is too much vital information he needs to split attention between.
But I do understand the need for hazzards. It's something I can experimet with to see if anything decent can come out of it.
As for adding options for ascension being hard, it's why I suggested rebalancing wall pass instead of adding the option to set ascension bonuses. Basically every powerup has its drawback in the early game (I've seen 2 bombs being placed by mistake or forgetting about power range, throw denies you farm, etc.), but wall pass has none.
Yeah, even though your suggestion is good I'm reluctant to decrease power of anything. And I have been killed by wall pass player in the beginning of game multiple times. I know it would have been so better if he was forced to move out of blocks to match speeds, would have been more tactical, and so much more balanced. And yet making things fair just feels like going against everything that bomberman is.
The times where I was able to predict his intent and hold out forcing him to leave unless he was willing to bet everything on that one kill felt so damn good.
It's all about that - surviving against incredible odds, against unfairiness, against those who think they can take you down. I can't bring myself to diminish that joy.
1. A rebalance of wallpass. I like the powerup, and although I could reduce drop probability, it can still be given right off the bat in ascension mode, where it seems to be OP. Maybe decrease movement speed while in soft blocks? Right now if you get it in ascension, you can almost guarantee for yourself free farm and the crippling of at least 1 player on the map with it. It's actually a reason we don't often use ascension, even though it's a fun option.
This is a nice balance suggestion and I really like it, but for now I'll probably just create additional option to include/exclude powerups from ascension list regardless of item setup. I imagine that possibility of turning ascension into a specific reward that is otherwise unabtainable is a cool extra option.
2. Ascesion mode reward icons do no match in-game icons of powerups.
Hm, wall pass and bomb throw share same icons due to my lameness, only throw is blue, but in ascension they both show up as white, is that what you mean? I'll try to do something about it.
3. Maybe a type of block (the rarity of which could be set similar to complexity) which you can pass through but can't place a bomb on.
Hm, an exlosion blocking/absorbing tile. I'm not too keen on adding such permament flame-block, I know I'd feel frustrated if I needed to blast someone away but he'd keep on hiding in a nicely generated shelter, but this does give me some other ideas, hmm..
5. A portal that works exactly like in Portal :p but it could be on the ground. It could transfer bots (and explosions?), kicks but not throws, etc. Maybe 1 pair per map to avoid making it too chaotic, or just give it a slider for the host to decide how many portals there'd be. I can imagine having 10 pairs to be fun actually :D it could be another type of block which you can walk on. Alternatively, you could place it on the side of a map unit for it to make sense to transfer explosions (so it wouldn't be on the ground but it'd be a gate sort of thing).
It's one of the hazzards that bomberman series have and one that I kept on thinking about adding. But I always stumbled on the question in what pattern should I spawn them. Should they all be just 2 way or should they all be conneced and when you ener one you get teleported to random other portal? Should there be any significance on from which side you enter them? Portals are just very vague to determine if it's worth making them.
NEVER underestimate my power to come up with crazy ideas. ;) hoping to see you tempted to meddle a bit with the map ^^
Ideas are nice, keep the brain working, so feel free to share more when you think of someting.
Some things such as recoloring icons are easy. Others like adding an additional option for ascension are tougher. Maybe I'll have some time to do stuff during next workweek and maybe it'll even be bomber related. No promises though.
@alfx01: Go
Aw man, you're too kind!
Anyway, autoadjust is there to compensate for the event of players leaving. It automatically scales arena size and round duration based on number of active players. So if you want to play with your own time limit or arena size you'll need to turn it off. I thought I'd do some updating with HotS, but HotS came and left me mostly uninspired (thus only HotS thing in map is a widow-mine bomber model). I'm kinda not mapping now, so future is probably bleak. Maybe LotV will grant us some amazing assets that I'll just have an urge to add, but I'm keeping my expectations low.
@alfx01: Go
In what way? Usually timer would revert to automatic settings if auto-adjust flag isn't turned off, perhaps that's the issue?
Oh whaat, I have completely forgotten about this.. again
D:
Don't feel like working on bomber at all. Been making a dream RPG map of mine until it came to a point where my imaginary practical experience just couldn't match my ambition. So to gain skills needed to make my big RPG I'm now making a separate smaller scoped RPG, wc3 style. And god, for the lack of fantassy assets, progress-impeding is the kindest word I can use.
<</rant>>
So yea, but if someone feels like playing bomber with me don't hesitate to thrown an invite my way (Though most people who play with me end up being sad, never to play it again).
@Hookah604: Go
Huh.. I had completely forgotten about that =D
@Trieva: Go
I thought of using some of those concepts for a "joker" powerup that would grant random positive or negative effects such as impact kick or or making unfortunate player to be kickable by other players. It was meant as an extra hidden item to bring in chaotic imbalance into the field if players for some reason wished so. Wanted to have at least 20 random effects, but couldn't quite come up with the list, so some of those suggestions are actually quite good for that purpose.
Also, I have a powerup in the game called shield, it has a max stack of 2 and each one makes you invincible for 1.5 seconds when you're hit by a bomb =D
Okay, the thing is if something doesn't doesn't feel right to me it's useful to pinpoint the exact reason, and it seems fairer for poster than to just "yes" or "no". And if I misunderstood something, poster can alert me to that fact. But it does take some time to translate thoughts into words. And sometimes even after all the words my writing fails to convey the thought process behind it =|
About friendliness, yeah, it's good design to make it easy for beginners to to get into game, but when concerning sc arcade, this discussion makes me want to go on rampage, digging out all beginner friendly maps and shout pointing fingers at them "where are their players"? So yes, while it's good to have it, it's just one of the things that adds to the whole, and is unable to draw in players by itself.
Fun fact: last 2 items I planned to implemet were mine (spider mine model) and "block" item that would create a wall. I couldn't figure decent mechanics for mine, and block thing.. just didn't happen. Though as of now I suddenly have a pretty good understanding how mine should work. he-he-he
P.S. Got any more ideas? =D
This is a response to Trievas comment in some other thread.
@Trieva: Go
Aaw man, I actually always wanted to make a map and then release a sequel called either "
*MAPNAME*
2:*COOL WORD*
" or "Super*MAPNAME*
". NES era was awesome. And while I'm tempted to create "Super Blasterbots", I don't feel that there would be enough content to justify new name. But I really want to now that you've mentioned it T_T.I don't think friendliness applies here. There are certain things that can attract mass SC2 demographics to a map and blasterbots has none of those. It's a very situational map that can not be continuously played unlike some others creations out there =/
It’s not quite that, but yea, there are some general unspoken rules of play that you realize after playing for a while. protip: waiting for anything usually makes you
*BOOM*
Would it not make the game much slower? It takes bomb 4 seconds to explode naturally, and starting speed is quite slow. So slow in fact that I consider speed powerup the most OP thing in the game. Still it's something that can be tried out by making a checkbox in options. Would act akin to blizzards practice mode where standard game speed is way slower.
Though compared to bomberman, this game is very slow.
I .. don't know about that. Every time I play all I see is people walking into their own explosions, people trapping themselves in corners, people blowing up themselves via remote, people dying to unnoticed pierce bombs, people failing to escape tracer bombs, and oftentimes just being unable to outrun sudden death :<
One misstep is all it takes to die. And if someone runs away, take the center, and watch them come to you when timer hits 30 seconds and blocks begin to fall.
I thought about doing something like this, but the classic way you're describing wouldn't work with scaling arena sizes like I have. There are more concerns to this (for example extra attention drain to living players), but since I don't see a good way to implement it there isn't much point talking about it.
If you’re curious about how that would work out – it’s possible for “host” player to modify amounts of both starting and spawning items. If you desire so you can remove all powerup drops and make all players start with 5 power/bombs + kick/remote.
Sudden death cannot be something that falls on your head and makes you lose out of the blue. The game abides to one principle - if you died it was entirely your fault. Except the chance of you getting nothing while your enemy is showered with 8/8 bombs/power + remote&line. But I haven't seen game generate anything like this yet =D
..But yea, for longest time I wanted to add another random death pattern where it sweeps from one random side to other, so that fortifying in center wouldn't be a superior choice for late-game. Problem is, my coding back then was abysmal, thus opening up trigger editor in balterbots makes me want to jump out of a window from a ten story building x_x
But this actually reminded me that with 2.1 arcade release it would be wise to show the map some love. If anything it's a way to dissipate burnout from other project =D
@kuvasz88: Go
Uh, sorry for the long reply time.
Spawning random 1-2 hit enemies feels like a wrong thing to do at this time. I won't just add stuff until I feel compelled by it. But making things like ghost stage where you've got many slow moving wall-passing monsters seems kinda cool. Yes, maybe a themed monster spawn is the way to explore this mechanic. Now, I when will I have time to work on bomber again..
@kuvasz88: Go
You can zoom out the same way you zoom out when you're dead if you disable camera autofollow (camera icon near name toggle icon in options panel).
As for monsters, it's something that would be awesome to have and something I wanted to do from very beginning (in fact maps first tests were single player vs AI monsters like in a classical bomberman). But the thing is, in a 3+ player game killing monsters becomes trivial. I wanted to make something cool with 4 players minimum but couldn't find that magical formula.
But what I wanted even more that that was a 1 vs 12 AI on huge map experience. Unfortunately AIs were also coded back in beginning stages when I didn't even have multiple stage sizes, so they're unoptimized to play in anything but the default tiny box (will drain maps performance horribly on map sizes bigger than 3). I still hold hopes to someday design a better, less lame AI.
Anyway, to you question, how would you like to see monsters implemented? Just spawn random monsters into arena for them to bother everyone?
@OceanFlex: Go
You don't even have to upload anything, just create an empty project and you'll become author of it ->author as title, at least that's how I see it.
@Zolden: Go
You're selling yourself short, I remember that one time when you drastically increased Kerrigans breasts, a certain person was overjoyed by the results of your work, eagerly showing people in irc images that I'm still not sure why I remember, I guess like true art it touched me in a way I didn't quite realized at first.
But I understand that creating ducks is a complicated matter, one should not approach such task with careless state of mind. Someday, when we're both better at what we do this grand idea will come into fruition, just not right now.
You're promoted to author once you upload something or create a project (even if it's a placeholder). But I like the sound of regular shmoe title more, so I remain that.
@Zolden: Go
I will, if you make a quality model for that. I'm not even kidding. Just except shitting it would randomly spawn a bunch of duck looking blocks, matryoshka style. You'd have to make those too.
Fughting godzilla-sized ducks does come off as a battle against impossible odds doesn't it? ;D
P.S. I think I'm crazy
Ah I see. Still, bomb blockers equal safer enviroment, you'd go there if you want to increase your chances of survival against better player. Kinda stale-mate encouraging thing, doesn't feel quite right to me.
With portals there is also another concern - they demand your attention. Usually you have complete control and info about what's happening around you, and in late game just zoom out a little and again, if you pay attention to what's going on around you'll live. When portals come in play they add another element you need to control - what is happening on the side of the map where second linked portal is placed. I dread a scenario where player is powerless to save himself cause there is too much vital information he needs to split attention between.
But I do understand the need for hazzards. It's something I can experimet with to see if anything decent can come out of it.
Yeah, even though your suggestion is good I'm reluctant to decrease power of anything. And I have been killed by wall pass player in the beginning of game multiple times. I know it would have been so better if he was forced to move out of blocks to match speeds, would have been more tactical, and so much more balanced. And yet making things fair just feels like going against everything that bomberman is. The times where I was able to predict his intent and hold out forcing him to leave unless he was willing to bet everything on that one kill felt so damn good. It's all about that - surviving against incredible odds, against unfairiness, against those who think they can take you down. I can't bring myself to diminish that joy.
@kuvasz88: Go Heeh, we should probably play again sometime. Though I imagine my break left me pretty vulnerable.
This is a nice balance suggestion and I really like it, but for now I'll probably just create additional option to include/exclude powerups from ascension list regardless of item setup. I imagine that possibility of turning ascension into a specific reward that is otherwise unabtainable is a cool extra option.
Hm, wall pass and bomb throw share same icons due to my lameness, only throw is blue, but in ascension they both show up as white, is that what you mean? I'll try to do something about it.
Hm, an exlosion blocking/absorbing tile. I'm not too keen on adding such permament flame-block, I know I'd feel frustrated if I needed to blast someone away but he'd keep on hiding in a nicely generated shelter, but this does give me some other ideas, hmm..
HotS came but I didn't notice anything I could incorporate. I'll double check the assets though.
It's one of the hazzards that bomberman series have and one that I kept on thinking about adding. But I always stumbled on the question in what pattern should I spawn them. Should they all be just 2 way or should they all be conneced and when you ener one you get teleported to random other portal? Should there be any significance on from which side you enter them? Portals are just very vague to determine if it's worth making them.
Ideas are nice, keep the brain working, so feel free to share more when you think of someting.
Some things such as recoloring icons are easy. Others like adding an additional option for ascension are tougher. Maybe I'll have some time to do stuff during next workweek and maybe it'll even be bomber related. No promises though.
@Hookah604: Go
A campaign where you survive against ducks you say?
Damn I'm too focused on my rpg to make something so major T_T.
@kuvasz88: Go
Yaay, thanks for letting me know, it's a huge relief.
Eh, I haven't played for so long (except for last mapnight) that I wouldn't even know what the map needs. Have any particular ideas for stuff?