Map's gameplay is broken at the moment by these turrets/towers on enemy territory.
I don't have a clue about any idea to implement these. It's just lack any sense. What the purpose? No, really.
Ah... asking questions doesn't matter now. I'm not gonna make any further feedback about the map, because it's not giving much effect anyway, and everything I see is gameplay being rigged and wrecked around with random experiments by a twisted logic of the author.
Eiviyn, you possibly have your signatures to being posted only once on a page. Check it out on your account signature settings.
About missiles: I don't know how many times I've to say that. I think this topic taking up 80% of all my frustration about the balance in the game. Yeah, you can make missiles with splash, but how do they can be dodged? And how that's revolve around their dominating power? I've expected them to get nerfed, you've just come with idea making them also good against bio masses. No problem, but m'lady, make them shoot only each 4 seconds, or describe your dodge idea. I'm personally believe it's better feat for some mortar-kind weapon with explosion projectile, that can be dodged, not the missiles that are homing by the nature.
I'm not playing this map until there are weapon reworks that i mentioned.
- Machineguns must shoot each 0,5 second but deal 5/10/20/40+x damage, that will increase the DPS output for 10% only and will look properly for their name.
- MG lvl1 must have Ghost attack projectile
- MG lvl2 must have Goliath attack projectile. If it's still will be too small, correct the scale manually.
- MG lvl3 must have Interceptor attack projectile
- MG lvl4 must have Phoenix attack projectile
- Cannon lvl4 must have Queen of Blades attack projectile
- Cannon lvl2 and lvl3 projectiles should be switched
- Siphon must shoot once eacch second, deal half the current damage and restore half the current value of shield.
I think one shop is ok, if you're just say the inventory row on each sub-menu button. There are no need for any other sub-menus.
Also, syphon shoots even with no sufficient energy gathered.
That's depends wherever map's Popularity is reset after being removed or not. Otherwise, it's just required to transmute map into diferrent setting, expanding map size, changing landscape to something more natural and battlefield-like, and reloading all the features and triggers into that map. You can close-test all the way you want, you can reconsider Control Points arrays and Base schematics.
In a way the things are currently, you can make a single shop building with sub-categories of types. I recommend to rename Armor category into Hardware and Shield category into Systems.
About the latest features added:
- Air vehicles have turned Missiles into uberpowered weapon. Last game i've played turned out with enemies having 3 Dusk Wings with 6x 4th Lvl Missiles against 2 Ares and 1 Battlecruiser, having Missile/Cannon/Gun hybrid build, unable to do anything until theres 10k of Money nowhere to spend on. Then one of these missile-lover are came straignt to our HQ and killing it singlehandely with no one able to be there in time. It's very hard to Snare them without area-tageting (you have to aim for enemy model, butt also to figure this out first).
That way, I Demand to nerf missiles somehow ASAP, otherwise there's gonna be only two type of players in this game - missile-lovers and losers.
- Scanner's bonus damage no paying off for the fact of beign exposed.
Eiviyn, m'lady, I should ask pardon for my rude words. It's just for the sake of quicker changes, and I haven't read your previous reply before making my own.
Your point of view is understandable. Still, if you're losing interest that fast, it's not about the game longtitude, that must be adjusted. Most people over there just make the opposite - they can't keep up with game coming to an end so fast. They barely enjoing it and can't feel the spirit of competition as result. The path that seems pretty obvious (my suggestions were based on it from the very start, I'm actually registered on the Mapster just for supporting your map), is that you must make game more fascinating, each game must be as much different from another as possible.
Good authors, for example, never were making their books shorter for their readers having no time to become bothered. They were making their books more interesting and enveloping, sometimes making tomes after tomes after tomes. Please, remember it. Making maps for any games is an art of figurally creating little worlds for other people's curiosity and joy. You must have a pride, confidence and definition of your little worlds, otherwise no one exept you will not be able to get attracted to it.
There is two main predecessors for Catalyst - Battle Tanks and Battleships. Both maps good and bad at different points. They're good because there's wide choise between the ways you can play. The're bad because lack of balance and ladder-based items system, where best items and best weapons and best bodies are existing. And that is where your map is better than these - you have weapons equal in price and power and almost equal in effectiveness and each having diferrent role and usage. Same with vehicles. That the great feat to being able to wishfully settle these stuff.
The problem is, you were looking for the wrong places about finding issues. Most of the people, I believe, will agree that the main one is the lack of content. Current cheme is the minimum package, as i consider. Also, I urgently recommend you to wide-up the frames of analysis about the existing features and ones yet to come.
For a subtle example, you'd think that three ballistic weapons are equal as they worth the same and have features that balance them among themselves. That is a judgement with frames around Items. But I would think that equal DPS of Cannons and Missiles with cannons applying Snare is not enough to scale properly with Missiles greater range, and that Guns having bonus versus Biological, but less DPS is not enough to scale with Missiles as well. That encourage people just to take Tanks with Misilles and Snare Drones and own everyone tactically, that the most powerful build that cannot be countered by ANY means. Also Missiles provide the best team-support opportunities, as if you're Warping toward that missile-lover, any additional fire you're taking, either from another missile-lover or just his team's Bios, is already means that you're dead. You cannot run and you cannot keep up with him. He can easily farm from safe distance, he can protect his Points with initial advantage, he can siege you with minimal risk involved. So I would make that missiles even slower, or make them with minimal range or just less powerful, but with adding style thinking, I would prefer minimal range, oh, and that Snare drones, damn, I would try to add some Armor item to shooting only at Robotic units to counter drones somehow, and that Guns i would add Armor Rating to dense plating, and that Cannons, well i would add Shield item to make an Ilussions of myself, and to counter them i would add short-range Detector to see which is real one, and so on, and so on, and so on, leading this strain towards all othe items, counters, vehicles and shaping a whole system of advantage/flaw dependencies. As result you'd see the map, where each player decide what he want to be good at a price to being vulnerable against something else. At that point everyone will see that the real power of that game would be the Team Play, the most essential feat of any competition and any multiplayer setting.
Oh, wait a minute, I'm lecturing again... such a smartass. Well, I just hope that you'll make something positive out of it. Just as I always wished to.
EternalWraith, I've been making map for a SC:BW maps back in a days, never having any troubles neither with balansing or filtering feedback. It's just not about "feels", it's about understanding the idea of map you're wanna make and smart working over the issues that can happen while you're implementing new features and systems. The gameplay is the thing that you're building in the first place aside from anything else, and that MUST be stable and relatively final on the 1.0 map version (first release besides alpha and beta phases). If you wish to tweak a gameplay after that, you're either better to make a new instance of initial project, or, as SC2 finally provides us with, to make a separate Game Mode for it.
Gameplay is the roots of any project. If you're twisting (critically changing) your gameplay after map was released, you're only getting people disgusted and disappointed. A washing machine that suddenly become a refrigerator? It's no about drama, it's about logic.
I'm just hope Eiviyn will start to actually think about all the feedback we're stating, rather than playing randomly with that "feeling" stuff. If that gonna follow that way, there's gonna be no one to play Catalyst and, of course, nobody to give any more feedback as well, as soon as it's not giving much of expected result.
Players were all OK about 1.3 model of gameplay, waiting for some new features, not for wrecking it entirely without any logical reasoning. Air vehicles, fighter drones, new featured weapons and systems, enhanced upgrading options, spawning and healing at planetary fortress, landscape tweaks, weapon/equipment visual adjustments, fixing prices and money gain, all of that repeated by different people for multiple times. But instead it's just gameplay disruption with exception for some good stuff, which somehow just making game shorter and less entertaining. Y'know, there was a SC:BW maps like SF whose prolonged for like 2-3 hours to pass trough, but no one were crying about this beign too long.
It's just like you want you map to be played more, rather than just being good...
No clear bugs so far. Only bugs is damn missile-lovers. They're not so much OP or something, but when all enemy team get them, it's just a f***ng family of bugs in my ass! Still, you can't nerf them any lower, or they'll become useless. So, maybe there's should be some thing that can help you confron them, like an Armor device that shooting down a missile (and only a missile) each 4 seconds, or something like it.
Armor rating is still recommended. As I sad before, just adding some base armor to Mech/Tank vehicles and giving a Dense Plating category a 1 armor bonus per level could make a big difference with missiles, guns and bios, though it's not fitting with Syphon multiattack (besides, I don't see a point in that one anyway). I'm just wonder if you're considering that option at all, so I don't waste a "breath" to write it.
I believe there's some extra projectiles on the Lost Viking minigame units that not used in a gam itself. Check it out, maybe there's some good ones for new or existing weapons. I'm still not righ with 4th Guns and 4th Cannons. At the very least, I can provide you with custom Icons, if you'll really need that.
And I'm also agree - it's a perfect time to add Gunship vehicle type to the field. Of course if there's no more major changes planned forth. Heheeh, I wonder if that Korhal blips are any fit for it :D
Can be Turret/Mine command buttons interpreted as Abilities with charges, dependend on amount of items and those whis is already planted?
Should not write another text-wall. Wrote a damn lot already. Wanna see some further updates first.
P.S. Finally, my SC are working as it's supposed to. Woohoo!
I did read your whole post and it was quite interesting. I don't mean to quote just this one line but I thought I'd reply to this specific line.
Next match you play, when you're trying to attack the landing towers, strap on a probe launcher and use it to grant vision of the high ground there.
I agree the probe is quite lackluster. I might see about giving it some additional functionality like being able to use your probe to lay mines/turrets.
Yeah, i tried, but were under fire from enemy vehicles, and when I've actually placed it, he destroyed it in moments. Placement range and vision of the Probe are very low. Being that large is not fitting for a probe launched from a vehicle either.
Whoa. Just some other misc stuff came into mind.
- Change Gun Lvl1 attack model to a Gun Lvl2 one (Ghost, i suppose). Replace Gun Lvl2 attack model to Viking (Assault) Gattling. Current Gun Lvl1 attack animation is barely noticeable, you can barely say if you're actually shooting or not, and sound is the same as marines. Gattling is more like the vehicle weapon, but Ghost attack can't look good as a more powerful MG than Gattling. So, make a 1Lvl MG attack as Ghost, and 2Lvl attack as Viking.
- If you don't want flamethrowers in game, make gold Flamethrower Drones at least. That would be fun :D
- Maybe high-level Predator melee Drones would be cool too.
- When I'll be off duty with my work, I can help you with customizing your own models for the map, I have some experience in 3Ds max, though I'm not yet sure about using M3 conversion tools, not tried them yet.
- Spawn points seems not really good on a map of that relatively small size. I believe it's better to make you always respawning near PF and being available to teleport to these stars (owned by your team, of course) with PF or this Upgrade Terminal in cost of some 10 gas.
- I think Siphon was pretty fine, never got any problems countering it with shield regen and normal weapons. But as many believe it's imba, I think you can fix it with just draining your energy per shot. That's an Energy weapon after all. But it must drain enough, like if it's shoots each 2 seconds, it's drains 4/6/8/10 energy per shot, so you can't just spam with it and you can't efficiently use it without some Energy-regen items.
Going to add some stuff later, maybe. Can't remember all ideas. Imagine a game with these features and decide whichever is fitting your idea of the map.
On Spawning layout:
- I expect you've made spawning static by now, if not, do it. Just to make sure.
- Make PF spawning troops to attack middle CP directly, and LT spawning troops to attack side CP's.
- Make Landing Towers rebuilt itself over 30 seconds.
- Rebuild Bio upgrade mechanism. Make separate upgrades for Add +2 marines, Add +1 Marauder, Add +1 Medic, Add +1 Saboteur (Ghost, bonus vs bio, must cast EMP with AI), Add +1 ACV (Little shrinked Agria Civil Transport with turret, tough and with 8 range Autocannon), Upgrade Marines, Upgrade Shocktroopers, and Upgrade Base Defense (Increase Armor and Damage of turrets). All with 2-3 levels and with right gas price.
- You can still keep bios grow in HP and damage, but it's must be minimal in values and completely flat with both teams. For keeping Bios harmful as players escalate, not for giving one team an advantage over other one.
On Map layout:
- Rework the 1st high-ground level of the Bases. Move ramps closer to the corner, so PF Bios will go middle adecuately and LT Bios will go straight to e side CP's with no zig-zags. Don't forget to add a second turret on far-side ramps.
- Move side CP's further away from base, so you wouldn't attack enemy turrets just from their ramps.
- Make two additional small-sized cliff-platforms between middle area and side-walking Bio path-crossing, or just between opposide Side Control Points. It must be somewhere in the middle of these map quadrants of nothingness. Just for a little tactical advantage, but with risk for being blocked as there's only one ramp on each cliff.
- Add some more movement/vision obstacles, primarily on top-right and bot-lef areas
- Or how about expanding these far corners into two new control points with neutral shop buildings, selling one random Artifact item (of any slot type), replaced with another one every 4 minutes? A quite good place for someone, who having troubles capturing middle... oh, and if you have not enough artifacts ideas, I can help. Though it's easy when searching trough available icons yet unused.
On Items layout
- As you're going to rewamp the item into upgradeable items, there are lot of items open to introduce and a lot of place. Splash/multitarget weapons are still not there. How about some mortar weapon with high reload, range and splash, in cost of minimum range and low DPS? Of course if there's an easy way to make hyperbolic attack projectiles...
- Make an Energy transfusion item, maybe with low range and Sentry attack effect. Of course it should work only if ally have energy to fill up, one to one.
On the Abilities
- If you wish to grant Vehicles their unique Abilities, do it ASAP. Otherwise there is no point in discussing them as they're now.
- Double the cost of Armor Repair and Shield Repair, also double the amount restored and energy cost. These abilities are good only in early, but they're require some energy regen items anyway. So, making it more bold will make them how useful even in late game.
- Same with most of the abilities. They all must have unique cost dependent on the effect, much higher than now, competitive with other items.
- Shield must block more damage, but drain more energy.
- Painting must give more additional damage, but have shorter envelope/duration.
- Afterburner must last more, for higher energy.
- Snare and Micro are two most useable and dangerous Abilities, they both must worth about 3k.
- Probe Launcher and Cloak have no practical use, they must be reworked. Like giving you a Cloak to use it at any situation or to attack from within, but draining energy fast. Probes must have greater vision range.
- Theres an error in capture message about capturing Refinery. Not Refinary :D
- I wish for air vehicles :((((
- Aura Items?
Damn, I'm feeling the game is going wrong way with these landing towers...
I agree about private testing and more deep changes. The game is ok, it's suspending itself by popularity somehow. No need to make new patch every day. i think. Also this is driving you to do unforseen steps, as I've observed. You'll need to form a full-scale image about how do you want your map to look and play like.
I rather see a description stuff as additional butten near the inventory one. It will show your basic vehicle stats as well as stats granted by items. That woud be cool so you don't have to guess how much shield and energy regen you're currently have.
I'm also see troops spawned at L Towers to attack the enemy side control points directly, first passing trough their own side control point, then leaving trough far-faced ramp and meeting with enemy ones somewhere nearby of city decorations. Maybe additional secondary control points could be added at their intersection spot. And about Landing Towers, I think they should just respawn after some time after beign destroyed, though it's all yours to decide.
I'm eager to tough the air vehicles. I wished to play a "minion-master" with double drones and drone ajustment on start, but theres no chassis with 2 drone slots. Now I hope the air ones will get that one.
Thor should be scaled down a little. He's not getting right between Diamondback and Ares as he's should be.
Some guys were thinking it's OP too. They've taken them as start items... worst allies in my play on that map.
Still, spawn remaking means that if you're losing Landing Tower, you're half-dead? And what the point to play when there's no more troops spawning? That's looks pretty grim :( Hope that's gonna be remade into something less critical.
But besides that, game are more unpredictable and fierce now. Good job.
I've buffed machine guns to range 6 in my offline build. I agree that it sucks to have to get so point blank to use them.
It's just that Guns are not that good with damage. Taking 1st grade MG's in start it a fail-stuff, you can't even fight bio with that, getting focused by it all the way, not speaking about enemy techs.
Quote from Eiviyn:
Turrets... I just refuse to buff their health. They are so easily replaced that buffing their health is just not an option right now. If I buffed their health, I'd have to increase their energy cost and cooldown, which makes them more fidgety to use.
I also disagree with turrets being useless. I love them for holding nodes.
Sorry about that one. Just checked them out and it seems they're ok. But it's strange that they all have the same HP's, considering the cost differences. That the reason they're totally useless in late, so theres no reason to buy a 4th one.
Still, their size is just smaller than Drones. Thats not right. I think they should have different amount of HPs and bigger size, like the 4th Level turret is 1.0 scale of original model. You can also change their model to Betty, so it's not the same shape as perimeter turrets. It's also would be cool, that you're just buying a Sentry Turret with no weapon preset, but could change it by selecting placed turret and choosing one of three weapons manually. So, if you're just need to keep a point from bios, you're switching to MG, and if there's player coming, changing it to missiles to give you some fire support.
There are some other misc issues:
Main Base targeting is a little buggy. When there are about 6-8 units attacking it, it's just rapidly rotates without actually shooting.
There are hole in the way-point schemes. When your team losing an off-side CP, you can barely recapture mid CP, losing half of attacking bios. When your base are losing a Landing Tower, your team can't recapture an off-side outpost at all, because you have no troops attacking it anymore. Troops spawned at your team main landing zone are attacking enemy base lines straightforward.
- Consider to add a waypoint priority determination which will lead Main LZ bios to attack off-side CP instead of enemy Main Base, if that off-side CP has been captured by an enemy team.