Any band of criminals can make a symbol that says "God With Us" to try and gain support.
That made me think about dollar bills and that famous "in God we trust". But that's not exclusive, as Brazilian real has its "Deus seja louvado", even though Brazil is supposed to be neutral in this matter.
@BasharTeg: Go You didn't understand my last comment because it wasn't for you. It was for those ready to answer with opinions based on ignorance. Some may include all religious people in that class, but I think different. As you just said, many want to discuss rationally important decisions like abortion and stem cell research. Of course religon is a part of the discussion, but sometimes there are stronger pressures.
Here in Brazil abort is always an important subject, because it is illegal, except in cases of rape, serious risk to the mother or serious deformities/diseases going on with the baby. But there are severel illegal abortion clinics and many poor women make abortions themselves using the most dreadful techniques for it (from falling down the stairs to inserting rusty metal bars into themselves and so on), so many women die trying to make an abortion. This is a serious health issue and many people think abortion should be legal, so it would be made safely in hospitals (it would still have to meet some conditions, like psychological exams). But religious people say it should stay illegal and those mothers should be convinced to stop trying it, which I think is totally impossible.
@BasharTeg: Go I understand your point. But think about it for a second, contraception is just an easier way, compared to the need to take your penis off your girlfriend's vagina before ejaculation, so as to avoid conception. So, do you cheapen unborn life every time you do that? Or when you masturbate? How come that a condom is any different? If you think humans are made just after conception you should force all zygotes to be implanted in a woman so they can all be born, or you can just be against artificial insemination, because this technique causes millions of unnecessary deaths.
About stem cell research: If those millions zygotes will be wasted anyway, what do you think is better? 1- Just waste them. 2- Give them a proper funeral or 3-Donate them to stem cell research laboratories so they can be useful.
These arguments I can totally understand, but when someone tells me he's against contraception and stem cell research because they murder babies, well then I have to explain some details about this little world we live in.
I just have a respone for "3)Denial of contraception"
You don't have to be religious to be against that. If you believe nothing special happens when a baby starts breathing (2 minutes before birth to 2 minutes after) then baby is just as human as anyone else, and killing it is then murder.
You don't have to be religious to be against this either, it promoted abortions which is considered murder to some people, so why support something that promotes murder?
Do you know that stem cell research can use zygotes that would be wasted because artificial insemination always creates more zygotes than they need? No stem cell research needs a woman to go through abortion.
@EternalWraith: Go I agree that arguing about the processes or not is pointless. No side can prove anything through those arguments, so you too shouldn't use arguments like that, still you tried to use evolution and life as one argument in your favor. See?
You do realize `Evolution` is only a very small part/aspect of the development of the species of earth, right?. You still cant fathom the processes that occurred at the big bang and during the evolution of the universe which was entirely perfect to create the precise conditions for life on earth. Research, and be in awe.
Yes I do, I'm a zoologist and evolucionist. Like Eiviyn said, you looks backwards and everything seems so perfect, but only because species evolved in these conditions. Venus or Jupiter would'nt look perfect to us and if we ever find life there those lifefroms wont find Earth so perfect to them. You need to remove the human lenses and check reality from a neutral point of view.
As for `Evolution`. I do not entirely discard the theory(Though some of it is a lot of bull). Of course there is evidence to it and such. Still no direct link between the ape-man(one minute caveman then next minute building pyramids and mapping out the solar system) , but yea.
The bible says God created the animals and man on the earth. It doesn`t go into the scientific processes behind it(that would fill books, and nobody at that time would understand or care). So did animals and man magically appear in a puff of smoke?, probably not. Did we evolve systematically?, perhaps.
I'd love to read what exactly you think is "bull", specially because that could tell how much of it you really don't understand. And about the "ape-man" link that dicussion was over a century ago, please renew your knowledge about the subject. I'm not religious but I do agree with you the Bible said God created animals and mem and it doesn't need to go into details about that (something many religious people can't even consider).
Its interesting, if you read the genesis account of creation.
And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
So did we evolve from the water and other things that evolution states?. Heck possibly. The difference is still that I attribute it to intelligent design and will.
So because the way "creation" was written superficially agrees with a sense of evolutionary order it tells us intelligent design is right? No, you should come with better arguments than that. You know I'm not here to argue about the existence of God or anything like that, but if you try to use scientific knowledge to justify your beliefs you should at least know it very well, otherwise they will turn against you. Intelligent design says creatures are what they are because something (God) created them for a purpose and they are perfect for that purpose, but the statement that creatures are perfect is wrong (Blizzard's idea of perfect god-like creatures doesn't count here). Creatures are only good to live the way they live and not always good enough, they are way far from perfection and will always be, because natural selection can only select them to the point they are better than median competitors.
What God did was write the code for everything(he wanted) , and then he hit the COMPILE button, and it executed without error.
Do you know what impossible miraculous chances/odds it is for you and us to be here today?. Have you the slightest idea?. How the moon was formed, how water was created on the planet, the formation of protein and DNA?. Ive studied and researched all of that(among other things). Everything just points toward intelligent design, its almost impossible to think otherwise.
Can you really say chance/randomness/luck is the reason for everything?. And what is chance/randomness/luck then?. You have more faith than me then in your belief if you think that.
Interesting enough that other many people that studied the same things come with the opposite conclusion. And if you are using the argument that chance/randomness/luck couldn't have created us you don't understand evolution. Evolution isn't random, mutations are and its a whole different thing.
Given the declination of religion, I'd say none, or at least very little.
You clearly don't know much about the current situation of religions. Although catholic population might be declining (and I say might because there are huge countries were catholic church is really strong, like Mexico, so we can't say that for sure) there are many new Christian churches popping out and they convert people like a cancer. I can speak for Brazil at least and here that's reality, the bible wont be forgotten because there are so many wannabe prophets gathering people and saying they are the ones that "read the bible right".
I'm not taking part in this whole discussion on religions, that's far off topic and I think its pointless, but I had to add this comment so people know religions are not dying as many think. If this case isn't enough I just need to say muslim families have way more children than other religions/atheists so the muslim population is growing incredibily fast. If you want to think about the far future, think about a muslim future.
And now the thread is oficially off topic. But trying for a brief moment to go back to Rodrigo's points, I do agree its necessary to go "down the road" in order to get wiser and then happier and not everybody can get there. But I also believe very "stupid" people (and animals) can go pretty high on the happiness axis so maybe the correlation isn't straight, it's more like an inverted parabole.
@RodrigoAlves: Go Your graphic is interesting, but wrong. True happiness is way easier when you don't have wisdom, so the wisdom axis should be backwards.
A friend of mine always tell a simple example that his dog looks extremely happy by running around people, sniffing random things and eating good ration while he (my friend) could never feel happy doing such simple things, as he has to worry about life, death, honor, capitalism and so on. Maybe some animals are way more happy than the average in your graphic.
Perhaps we don't die, but just get offline :P. I gotta open the Counter-Strike church. When we die, we become a free camera until it's time for us to respawn.
And as we have things like scientology, I totally believe you would draw crowds to follow your ideas. You can never go too crazy when talking about religion. I know I'd like to be a free camera waiting to respawn lol.
@BlakwidowRSA: Go Fine words. I do think afterlife is just like before you were born. And I agree that we might know that memories are everything we leave behind. A person is not totally dead as long as people remember and pass along thoughts, teachings and so on, thus I come to your conclusion, things like books, songs and now the whole internet are keeping people alive, they become something like signs on the road for younger people.
EDIT: Was it your first post on Mapster? If it was then be welcome.
@BasharTeg: Go God could have created life and the laws of evolution. That's exaclty what I was saying, misinterpretation of the consequences mislead people to attack something they don't fully understand. In fact during the first decades after the Origin of the Species book many Christian priests accepted it as truth, claiming that it was one of the natural laws created by God, just like gravity or any other. The problem is some people can only take religious books literally form the beginning to the end, so they can't even accept such statements.
Evolution doesnt tell us God didn't create life, it only tell us all life on Earth evolved form a single species and that species accumulate modifications over time. God's participation on it is still based on each person's beliefs.