Well, yes, but it would impractical. You know how it is.
In any case, I can only wait until you guys find the truth of this issue. In the meantime, I will create models and setup UVW as blizzard does. Would make updating much more convenient whenever advance has been made. :)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Thank you. I do hope you guys get to the bottom of this. I firmly believe, like in COH, this flipping should not occur. Though I have noticed the Blizzard Carrier display this error at it's nose area at some lighting angle.
Nonetheless, I hope this does not delay things like attachments, animated material tiling, and particle support, since this issue with the normal maps can be compensated for by some workarounds.
I'm hoping some coders can break the m3 finally. Some hacker could help maybe?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Frankly, I don't think there is a solution - as you noted with the carrier. I think if you look closely enough at the other models that use mirroring, you'll find the same issue (what's COH?). I could be wrong, but if it's not 'automatically' being handled by the game code, then there would have to be hinting data in the .m3 file and any sort of 'fix/hinting' in the .m3 file would have to be at the polygon or even vertex level and that would be a tedious thing to implement (ie. you'd need some method inside Max to specify a "reverse uv-winding-order" type flag on individual polygons, that would produce some lookup-table or set of flags for each polygon in the .m3 file).
...just doesn't seem overly likely to me, but... who knows? ;)
In any case, I'll be keeping an eye on this issue as I keep working on new models. It hurts to be looking at Blizzard models and see them flawless in the normal map department. :D
Though, TBH, I do wonder if NiN is still working on the scripts or has somebody become the heir of this most glorious task?
Thank you. It will likely take some time before I get around to it and relearn MaxScript (obviously I'm not primarily working with 3DSM scripts, as I even forgot that I can view the files in Max). But I know that I have three months of absolutely nothing to do coming here pretty soon, so I may be able to catch myself up then. I'm estimating it will likely be 2015 by the time they release the official tools, based on their past timelines, so I have some amount of time to still become top programming dawg I think.
Why does Blizzard make their games use such weird things? Like the normal maps, WTF is that about?
I don't understand why they don't release tools when the game comes out. I fail to see what good the editor's import system is if no one can get things to the right format without reverse engineering it, and obviously it can't be that hard for them to do given that they designed it and likely used the same programs that we do in development. Altogether, they're kind of a sad excuse of a company - they just happen to make a couple good games every decade or so (albeit typically several years, if ever, later than they originally intended to. And now they aren't even done with this one). If any other studio operated things like they do people would be up in arms over it.
Same reasons they use Diablo 1 code in warcraft 3.
I would personally argue against that anything Blizzard's released since Brood War was a "good game", but I guess that depends on what perspective you look at them.
Personally I was never a big fan of Starcraft. I was 7 when it came out, and didn't play it until after I played Warcraft. Then kinda got into modding and played Starcraft but wasn't really my thing. I loved Warcraft though, but that got boring quickly but with the custom maps and whatnot, it's at least somewhat new, or there is likely a gametype you like. I hate WoW, that game makes me sad. And I don't really even like Starcraft II, I just wanted to make a couple maps with it to see if I could, but apparently my models refuse to export properly so I can't (thanks for being on top of things Blizzard).
And Gna: I don't WANNA embrace it. I want them to give it to me so that I don't have to do it myself.
I've played pretty much everything, WoW included, for many years. I modded Starcraft since 1999, and d2 for a duration, though not as long as wc3.
SC2 is my greatest disappointment in all my time of gaming and modding. I still hang around in the vain hopes things that are possible in Brood War, like actual mods/campaigns, will one day be possible with SC2. But probably not before I switch off to Skyrim. I would love to help you guys research this further but I know absolutely no technical knowledge. I can only report the numerous bugs I've run into exporting, which I did a while ago to NiN. :(
@IskatuMesk: Go
Yes I am really excited about Skyrim, and hoping it's significantly better than Oblivion. We were going to do a total conversion into a WWII game (which we were originally going to do for STALKER but that engine sucked), but Bethesda had taken up some issue with animations so we couldn't do it. Assuming we can do animations in Skyrim we might pick it up, or at least I might if I have time. Likewise, right now I'm doing things I wanted to with Warcraft but couldn't, although quickly finding I may not be able to with Starcraft.
As for the exporter: As I said, I'm fairly busy. I would like to make it a priority soon, and it likely will become one if I can't get my models to export because I really really wanna do this mod, but I also just criticized Blizzard for their tendency to say something is going to happen 'soon' and then it's hinted at, denied, then announced, then abandoned a few times, then out of nowhere they're like "Here you go! Oh wait, in like another three years." Then four years come by and they're like "Hey we couldn't finish it on time, here's a third." WHERE THE HELL DOES YOUR WOW MONEY GO BLIZZARD?
So I will not do that, because I know that in reality it will likely be this summer by the time I might get to it as I may very well get kicked out of school... for not going. In high school this would have been the best news ever. Now I'm horrified. So that is going to take up a considerable chunk of my time unexpectedly, in addition to the other projects I have. Plus to be honest I'm not terribly keen on doing anything like this with Blizzard's things, because as I said they seem to take something that is perfectly fine, then fuck it up so that it looks like some horrible monster thing and use that. And somehow it always works for them. However even when I do get around to do it, I typically don't do anything with art anymore because it's tedious and I get mad, and can't remember most of what I'm doing so it will likely take a long while to review. I don't even know how you would do that in a script, I've never written anything that totally changed the format.
Yeah, I understand completely. But any progress is still massive. It took until sc2 for someone (Again, NiN, what a hunk) to make an importer/exporter for warcraft 3 that worked for a version of 3ds max later than 5.1! Which doesn't even work on vista or windows 7 because it's so old!
I can't model or animate characters so it comes down to porting stuff from other games, so having solid tools is really important. For the most part they work with NiN's exporter, but there are issues that do occur, like the lack of multi-object material smoothing I pointed out a while ago, and some weird bone weighting issues Otixa and I tried to figure out for quite a while without any success. It would help if Blizzard was actually in any way serious about supporting custom content and took a stance like Epic, who regularly releases source code for their plugins in addition to their plugins quite often, for the UDK and such. But given their flabbergasted blank stares in response to questions about single player campaigns at Blizzcon, and ludicrous "sometime between now and LoTV" for releasing the max plugin they are using right this minute... well, when there's no competition for what you're doing, you can set the bar very, very low.
Yes, I don't think Blizzard actually cares to be honest. They're just raking in money from WoW now, to be honest they don't really have to do anything anymore, they make billions of dollars a year without any more games. So they have time to ensure that this shit makes no god damn sense. Given the quality of this game, I'd say that's an accurate estimate of their time given how long they've been working on it. And banning people.
Just a note to people, light objects in models are not yet supported. The normal issues, the script isn't perfect at exporting normals which is why alot of your issues may be occuring.
Blue isle studios has graciously supported the development of the scripts and if you get the chance check them out at http://blueislestudios.com/. They will be releasing some ultra cool stuff in the future. Their support is much appreciated :).
I'll drop by later to comment on some other things that are being discussed in the thread. Just wanted to post the update before I had to head out. Cheers all.
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Well, yes, but it would impractical. You know how it is.
In any case, I can only wait until you guys find the truth of this issue. In the meantime, I will create models and setup UVW as blizzard does. Would make updating much more convenient whenever advance has been made. :)
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Here's a quickie .obj file remap (similar to the first image above)...
(note: I took the liberty of 'welding' the points of the mesh while I was at it)
Thank you. I do hope you guys get to the bottom of this. I firmly believe, like in COH, this flipping should not occur. Though I have noticed the Blizzard Carrier display this error at it's nose area at some lighting angle.
Nonetheless, I hope this does not delay things like attachments, animated material tiling, and particle support, since this issue with the normal maps can be compensated for by some workarounds.
I'm hoping some coders can break the m3 finally. Some hacker could help maybe?
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Frankly, I don't think there is a solution - as you noted with the carrier. I think if you look closely enough at the other models that use mirroring, you'll find the same issue (what's COH?). I could be wrong, but if it's not 'automatically' being handled by the game code, then there would have to be hinting data in the .m3 file and any sort of 'fix/hinting' in the .m3 file would have to be at the polygon or even vertex level and that would be a tedious thing to implement (ie. you'd need some method inside Max to specify a "reverse uv-winding-order" type flag on individual polygons, that would produce some lookup-table or set of flags for each polygon in the .m3 file).
...just doesn't seem overly likely to me, but... who knows? ;)
Your right.
In any case, I'll be keeping an eye on this issue as I keep working on new models. It hurts to be looking at Blizzard models and see them flawless in the normal map department. :D
Though, TBH, I do wonder if NiN is still working on the scripts or has somebody become the heir of this most glorious task?
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
@GnaReffotsirk: Go
Sorry but I want to step back a bit because I'm curious - are you making your shaders by hand?
Also, is the source code for this available?
No, I have only basic knowledge in scripting. I'm using NiNToxicated's max scripts. Those are source codes too as you can view them via text editors.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
@GnaReffotsirk: Go
Oh yeah I forgot about that. I'll look at it sometime and see if I can do anything with it. Been a while since I used MaxScript for anything.
Awesome! A lot of people will be truly excited, and the community as a whole would benefit!
I wish you all the strength and brilliance, Varine! =)
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
@GnaReffotsirk: Go
Thank you. It will likely take some time before I get around to it and relearn MaxScript (obviously I'm not primarily working with 3DSM scripts, as I even forgot that I can view the files in Max). But I know that I have three months of absolutely nothing to do coming here pretty soon, so I may be able to catch myself up then. I'm estimating it will likely be 2015 by the time they release the official tools, based on their past timelines, so I have some amount of time to still become top programming dawg I think.
Why does Blizzard make their games use such weird things? Like the normal maps, WTF is that about?
I honestly have no idea. It could be my mistake altogether.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
@GnaReffotsirk: Go
I don't understand why they don't release tools when the game comes out. I fail to see what good the editor's import system is if no one can get things to the right format without reverse engineering it, and obviously it can't be that hard for them to do given that they designed it and likely used the same programs that we do in development. Altogether, they're kind of a sad excuse of a company - they just happen to make a couple good games every decade or so (albeit typically several years, if ever, later than they originally intended to. And now they aren't even done with this one). If any other studio operated things like they do people would be up in arms over it.
I'm sure blizzard have their reasons. Regardless, this is our fate, and if we learn to embrace it we gain the power to tame it. So to speak. ;)
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Same reasons they use Diablo 1 code in warcraft 3.
I would personally argue against that anything Blizzard's released since Brood War was a "good game", but I guess that depends on what perspective you look at them.
@IskatuMesk: Go
Personally I was never a big fan of Starcraft. I was 7 when it came out, and didn't play it until after I played Warcraft. Then kinda got into modding and played Starcraft but wasn't really my thing. I loved Warcraft though, but that got boring quickly but with the custom maps and whatnot, it's at least somewhat new, or there is likely a gametype you like. I hate WoW, that game makes me sad. And I don't really even like Starcraft II, I just wanted to make a couple maps with it to see if I could, but apparently my models refuse to export properly so I can't (thanks for being on top of things Blizzard).
And Gna: I don't WANNA embrace it. I want them to give it to me so that I don't have to do it myself.
@Varine: Go
I've played pretty much everything, WoW included, for many years. I modded Starcraft since 1999, and d2 for a duration, though not as long as wc3.
SC2 is my greatest disappointment in all my time of gaming and modding. I still hang around in the vain hopes things that are possible in Brood War, like actual mods/campaigns, will one day be possible with SC2. But probably not before I switch off to Skyrim. I would love to help you guys research this further but I know absolutely no technical knowledge. I can only report the numerous bugs I've run into exporting, which I did a while ago to NiN. :(
@IskatuMesk: Go Yes I am really excited about Skyrim, and hoping it's significantly better than Oblivion. We were going to do a total conversion into a WWII game (which we were originally going to do for STALKER but that engine sucked), but Bethesda had taken up some issue with animations so we couldn't do it. Assuming we can do animations in Skyrim we might pick it up, or at least I might if I have time. Likewise, right now I'm doing things I wanted to with Warcraft but couldn't, although quickly finding I may not be able to with Starcraft.
As for the exporter: As I said, I'm fairly busy. I would like to make it a priority soon, and it likely will become one if I can't get my models to export because I really really wanna do this mod, but I also just criticized Blizzard for their tendency to say something is going to happen 'soon' and then it's hinted at, denied, then announced, then abandoned a few times, then out of nowhere they're like "Here you go! Oh wait, in like another three years." Then four years come by and they're like "Hey we couldn't finish it on time, here's a third." WHERE THE HELL DOES YOUR WOW MONEY GO BLIZZARD?
So I will not do that, because I know that in reality it will likely be this summer by the time I might get to it as I may very well get kicked out of school... for not going. In high school this would have been the best news ever. Now I'm horrified. So that is going to take up a considerable chunk of my time unexpectedly, in addition to the other projects I have. Plus to be honest I'm not terribly keen on doing anything like this with Blizzard's things, because as I said they seem to take something that is perfectly fine, then fuck it up so that it looks like some horrible monster thing and use that. And somehow it always works for them. However even when I do get around to do it, I typically don't do anything with art anymore because it's tedious and I get mad, and can't remember most of what I'm doing so it will likely take a long while to review. I don't even know how you would do that in a script, I've never written anything that totally changed the format.
@Varine: Go
Yeah, I understand completely. But any progress is still massive. It took until sc2 for someone (Again, NiN, what a hunk) to make an importer/exporter for warcraft 3 that worked for a version of 3ds max later than 5.1! Which doesn't even work on vista or windows 7 because it's so old!
I can't model or animate characters so it comes down to porting stuff from other games, so having solid tools is really important. For the most part they work with NiN's exporter, but there are issues that do occur, like the lack of multi-object material smoothing I pointed out a while ago, and some weird bone weighting issues Otixa and I tried to figure out for quite a while without any success. It would help if Blizzard was actually in any way serious about supporting custom content and took a stance like Epic, who regularly releases source code for their plugins in addition to their plugins quite often, for the UDK and such. But given their flabbergasted blank stares in response to questions about single player campaigns at Blizzcon, and ludicrous "sometime between now and LoTV" for releasing the max plugin they are using right this minute... well, when there's no competition for what you're doing, you can set the bar very, very low.
@IskatuMesk: Go
Yes, I don't think Blizzard actually cares to be honest. They're just raking in money from WoW now, to be honest they don't really have to do anything anymore, they make billions of dollars a year without any more games. So they have time to ensure that this shit makes no god damn sense. Given the quality of this game, I'd say that's an accurate estimate of their time given how long they've been working on it. And banning people.
New update: M3 Plugins v1.8
Just a note to people, light objects in models are not yet supported. The normal issues, the script isn't perfect at exporting normals which is why alot of your issues may be occuring.
Blue isle studios has graciously supported the development of the scripts and if you get the chance check them out at http://blueislestudios.com/. They will be releasing some ultra cool stuff in the future. Their support is much appreciated :).
I'll drop by later to comment on some other things that are being discussed in the thread. Just wanted to post the update before I had to head out. Cheers all.