SC2Mapster

To break the 'huge wall of text cycle' a little: any new screenshots?

@SoulFilcher: Go

Soon. Neither of us worked particularly much on the map. What I did work on is part of the thing we don't want to reveal pre-alpha, and something else that I will reveal as soon as its finished (Needs minor tweaks to look good). I guess I still have to implement your doodads and decorate the beach a little, maybe set up the out-of-city starcenters with the wall doodads you made us, can make screenshots of those :)

@Trieva: Go

I'll be keeping this short, sorry - Really tired.

Trainer Levels: No plans on them affecting much yet, they're more of a thing that allows you to compare yourself to other players. You'll get points for the levels your starmon are at, for stardex and quest completion, random events, etc. We can probably tie some singleplayer perks to it though, and we haven't decided yet on how the genetics lab will be unlocked (Stardex completion was my first idea, but could tie it to player levels). I guess some other things will subtly affected by player levels (Unlocking higher level generic items like Ultra balls, higher level quests, etc.)

For avoiding wild battles: There was the "Repel" item in the pokemon games, and its definitely making a comeback here. To avoid trainers... well, try not to get spotted.

Battle Items: I'll think about it. Probably singleplayer and non-arena only though if we're gonna make em particularly strong.

That concentrate move sounds interesting, I can try adding that if I make a starmon on which it fits thematically (We don't have anything like meditite yet :/ ) It would still cost energy though - not going to make any moves free (in addition to just not wanting that, it would also screw up the struggle/out of energy mechanic), not sure what I would put the cost at though.

Transforms: Fitting 3D models and animations would be necessary, highly doubt we're gonna get em :( Interesting idea though

First of all, if its about something I'm interested in (Like, for example, my own map), I like walls of text ;) It was more of an issue of me having lazy day and just not wanting to answer (Yet), and then seeing a new post in the thread just as I was about to go to sleep, and SoulFilcher just asked an incredibly simple question that I could answer quickly, so I wrote up that paragraph, and was about to hit "reply" and then thought "Trieve wrote a wall of text, would be unfair to ignore him if I'm already writing a post..." so I ended up just rushing it :p4

Repel might cost money, but not really much. I never had an issue, I'd just buy 10-20 at a time and those would get me through a couple of hours of game time, by the end of which I would've earned a crapton of money again. It's potions that get expensive, but you when you buy 10-20 they last for a good amount of time as well. Honestly, I don't think we need to make anything cheaper, but maybe more expensive so that money actually matters and you don't just end up buying 99 of everything and then still hitting 999,999 money :p Imo needing to think about where you spend your money (without being severely penalized for making the wrong choice, which in this case isn't possible since items are more a "get out of jail free card" thing than a vital part of combat) is a good thing. Chances are we won't get the numbers right on the first try and we'll need to balance the costs of many items, so if the price of repels really becomes an issue we'll make them cheaper (Or something else cheaper if its not actually the repels cost that is the issue)

Plain recolors don't look good if I do em and would overlap with shinies (atm all shinies use alternative textures which are basically recolours, some of them have some minor detail tweaks. (WoW models almost always come with texture variations. They also look better than anything I'd do). Only shinies that don't use alternative textures are Odoron / Overstank (Overlord and Overseer model) since they are almost entirely covered in team color, so I just changed that :p ) I might be able to find some WoW models that could support a temporary transform, some demons perhaps (Imp -> Dreadlord?)

Concentrate is definitely a good idea, but 2-4 ups will definitely be too strong. The thing is, I don't know whether that move is balanceable at all :/ Having +6 stages on any stat is an insane boost to damage/defense. Something like that would most likely be used on a glass cannon (Tons of damage, practically nonexistant defense) kind of starmon, and those would just tear apart enemies with +6 to their offensive stats, having it for just one turn is already enough to do fatal damage or get someone low enough to take them out in the next turn without the bonus. Imagine someone using 2x concentrate for +6 and following it up with either a 1-shot-kill fire blast/hyperbeam/whatever, or just using U-Turn/Volt Switch to immediately

@TheAlmaity: Go

600th post Woo-Hoo. I hope your Items will be priced like in the original, until it seems to be unbalanced for starmon then adjusted properly (a.k.a V1.0 Public until V1.0a or higher). I don't know about you but without Cheating money in the games I never got anywhere near the $999,999, probably the highest I ever got to was $20,000-$26,000. Then I'd blow that on some $2,700 moves.

Do you have plans for a walkthrough or guide, that explains what rewards you get for you karma choices. That would be great to know what side you wanna go with your karma.

@DaFunk86: Go You didn't fight much then. I usually had a lot of extra money, I wish I could use it to buy Master Balls XD

@Trieva: Go

You're starting to rub me the wrong way with some of those comments in that latest post, and your "a proper strategy game gives me plenty of options". To me and I think most people that will want to play this map are not looking for X-COM they are expecting POKEMON, With Water Beats Fire, Fire Beats Grass simple and fun strategy.

Quote from Trieva: Go

Just to avoid going too off-topic I believe sc2 melee and plenty of other RTSs are broken. IMHO no strategy game deserves that title (strategy) if you can programme an AI to win under all (but fair) circumstances. Since there's no limit on reactions or multi-tasking, and computers always beat humans at this at their best, where's the strategy? It's far easier to win by mechanical aggression on the keyboard. Why should players be punished for trying to be more smart and clever? You guys are making a strategy game right? :P.

A large amount of strategy in some game types like TCGs and pokemon games comes before you actually even have an opponent. We can, and probably will, program an AI to play the most effective way possible (Not really that hard to program, as opposed to an RTS AI), but that AI will still be limited to a specific set of 6 starmon with four moves each. If the set is too generalized, some more specialized setups can probably easily overpower it. If its a specialized set up, its very likely strong against another specialized setup but also weak against some. Same thing goes for players - The strategy is not only in how you handle the battle, but how you prepare for it. A player having a team full offensive starmon might end up getting screwed over by a tank that uses reflect/light screen + 6x Calm Mind/Bulk Up and then Baton Passes out to a fast offensive starmon and proceeds to oneshot the entire glass-cannon team. A player focusing more on holding out and playing defensively will get screwed over if the enemy has Toxic (or any other %health based DoTs, which is almost all of them) and can play just as defensively. A stat-mod spammer gets screwed over by the move that swaps all stat stages between the two active starmon. Some people will want to take the big risk of having a very specialized team that might absolutely get wrecked by another strategy, while others will try and minimize their weaknesses at the cost of losing a specific strength (Like throwing out your ghost starmon that is really good at messing with your opponents energy and statuses for a psychic starmon that still has the great offensive stats but can also learn some defensive moves)

That said, I will try to keep a good amount of more "advanced" moves that have less straightforward uses (Like Baton Pass - Most players will probably ignore it, some will see it's actually really useful and use it. Same goes for most other status moves - People will instinctively just want the hardest hitting thing they can get without thinking about how effective it really is compared to moves that don't deal direct damage), and if a certain strategy becomes dominant, I'll either nerf it (If it really is too strong), or there most likely will already be a good counter to it and I'll just have to make people aware of it and get them to use it.

Also, the fact that complicated strategies can exist doesn't mean simple ones can't. There honestly probably will be a lot more simple ones than complicated ones, like for example just simply having a set of 6 starmon, one of which is always going to be strong against a certain type, without paying too much attention to synergy between moves and such things. It won't be a flawless strategy, but it will probably be the starting point for all strategies - People will deviate from a standard, safe setup to something more specific that they prefer. If a player doesn't like getting poisoned, he'll add a steel or poison starmon to his lineup (They're immune to poison) or get some other form of immunity/curing. Others will start number crunching instead of going by personal preference and try to discover powerful strategies instead of "comfortable" ones. I want to make sure there's options for both kinds of people.

As for concentrate: You're trading one turn of time on your way to max out your attack stat for the fact that you don't get to keep that buff. If it is effective, it will probably be because it is overpowered and will plain simply deal too much damage too fast, giving your opponent less time for counter play, and what I think is the more likely scenario: It will be useless and, more importantly, a noob trap. It all comes down to "Is this effective?", and you're trading three turns for something that's not permanent, so to be effective it has to be incredibly powerful, which would pretty much mean it has to be straight up OP to be effective at all. If it isn't worth trading that one turn for having the buff be permanent, but the move exists, it's a noob trap - People will think "Oh, it's good", but it isn't - It should not exist at all in that case.
And, probably the biggest flaw - Whether strong or weak, I can't fix it. It's mechanic is that its buff gets stronger with consecutive uses, but the buff is capped (and that cap can't be removed). If I make it take longer to reach the cap, it becomes useless as it just simply ends up matching the speed or being slower than other moves. if it's too weak... Well, nothing I can really do at all. The only way to make it faster is to make it one turn, which kind of completely removes its core mechanic.
I like the idea of the move, but I don't think I'll be adding it, because if I do it will require a good amount of testing simply to answer the question of "Do I keep it or scrap it?". The way that stat mods in pokemon/starmon work just simply doesn't allow something like this to be effective.
There was however something similar in the pokemon games that I actually wanted to add but completely forgot: Fury Cutter

the DBZ reference totally passed by me, I know what it is but I dont watch any DBZ... so yeah...

For making the vitamins cheaper: probably a no, will see. Overall I think we'll end up with just having higher money rewards and/or other things that will sort of making money worth less than in the pokemon games (Quest rewards, random items being generated in zones every time you start the map, karma perks, randomized discount merchants, etc.) The reason for that is that we will have more money sinks like the genetics lab, teleporters, and we'll have each and every TM available in a shop as well - Chances are people are going to be short on money, and to fix that we probably shouldn't reduce prices but up overall cash flow (Unless cash shortage comes from a specific issue). For now we'll stick to the original prices - I don't want to preemptively "fix" prices before knowing whether there actually is an issue.

Hope I answered everything :)

@TheAlmaity: Go

Very glad to hear your take on it, and I'm very happy with the way your going. Good Work keep it up so we can PLAY soon.

Quote from TheAlmaity: Go

That said, I will try to keep a good amount of more "advanced" moves that have less straightforward uses (Like Baton Pass - Most players will probably ignore it, some will see it's actually really useful and use it. Same goes for most other status moves - People will instinctively just want the hardest hitting thing they can get without thinking about how effective it really is compared to moves that don't deal direct damage), and if a certain strategy becomes dominant, I'll either nerf it (If it really is too strong), or there most likely will already be a good counter to it and I'll just have to make people aware of it and get them to use it.

I really hope that works for Starmon, because in Pokemon games the hit fast and hard strategy usually overcome everything thrown at you. Some Full Revives in the bag and you were invincible.

Quote from Trieva: Go

Haha, you didn't miss out much ;) . It was mostly about half naked, muscly men giving eachother staring contests and breaking the planet. If certain characters were in danger they'd constipate in the most over-the-top way and somehow turn blonde :P.

Obligatory.

@SoulFilcher: Go

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pokemon PvP battles did not allow you to use items, unless they were attached to your pokemon. PvP was the only place where actual strategy, skill and stats mattered. If you were just doing PvE, you could get away with anything and the classifications of sweeper, wall and annoyer never really mattered.

@Vjetar: Go I don't have much experience with PvP, but my cousing does, he even plays in small tournaments with the kids from his shool, and he agrees with me, hit hard and fast and nothing will beat you. But then again he says the other kids aren't that really good. I think maybe the other strategies are harder and thus it looks like this is the better strategy, when it is in fact easier to do right.

Maybe pokemon fan sites have more accurate answers for that.

@zeldarules28: Go

What we need to settle this is some Japanese guy who's in the world top 5 Pokémon league.

Quote from zeldarules28: Go

And to answer your previous question regarding PvP item use- it used to be that you simply couldn't use items in PvP at all. But I've been told that the new games allow item use in battle, but in a regulated way. You can't just use any item you bought from the story. Basically (at least as far as I can tell), you get a point each turn, and all the available items cost a certain number of points. So after x turns you save up enough for a potion, after y turns a hyper potion, etc... It's not connected to the items you purchased in the story.

Nah, in story you can still use all items at will, and in pvp you are limited to 1 item per pokemon you can give them to hold. Only specific items are useable here, no hyper potions for example, only berries, certain passive items with very specific effects, for example an item, that prevents a 1 hit kill if you are at full hp before the attack, or items that raise your attack/sp-attack/speed by 50% but lock you into one move, once you used it.

I've read a fair bit about competitive pokemon dueling (never really played it, though), and while it is true, that one-shotting is very prevalent, there is still a great deal of tactics and prediction involved. The pokemon are categorized in tiers, based on stats, abilities, movepool and general usefulness. Most of the legendary pokemon get into the Uber tier, which is commonly considered quite imbalanced. The commonly used tier for duels is the first below the uber tier, all ubers are banned here. Still a huge amount of one-shotting is possible, however you have a very powerful tool to counter that: Prediction and switching out. In this tier, there are no pokemon, who can just one-shot everything. Switch into one of the many available dedicated tanks, and you can usually tank a lot of hits, especially if you know your opponent's pokemon and swap into something he can barely touch.
Point being, this appears to be quite a delicate balance from what I have read, so just increasing all hp by 200% could seriously mess with that, dedicated tanks could become way stronger now, especiallly considering recovery moves usually restoring a percentage of your hitpoints, which was balanced by the fact that you usually could deal enough damage to mitigate this healing. At 200% hp, you would need to deal twice as much damage somehow to counter that.

But well, thats only really an issue in PvP. In story mode, where you have serious advantages like the ability to swap your pokemon for every battle without using up a turn and using as many items as you want, also the enemies hardly ever switch their pokemon, you are right, it could probably make the game more interesting than the usual one-shot party.

I think its about time I said something in this discussion :p Sorry, I've had a really lazy week >.>
I'll try not to go into too much detail because its pretty late and I wanna head off to bed, and writing huge posts takes time...

200% Health: Yes, this might not fix the problem completely, but I'm sure it'll fix it partially and make bruisers/tanks more valuable. Tanks getting a huge buff might be an issue, if that buff is too huge. But here's the thing: Energy! Glass cannons don't have to worry about it - Their job is to do it quickly. They won't run out, because if they do, they've been doing their job wrong. Tanks on the other hand... All I have to do is identify the most used moves by that class of starmon and up the energy costs, and BAM I've got them in a spot where they aren't the best class anymore. Throw in ghosts with energy manipulation moves and shit's gonna hit the fan for tanks.
Another possible nerf to tanks could be a buff to damage over time: Those are also % health based, which means they do more damage than in the original games. Upping the % damage will make burn and poison moves even more dangerous against tanks. If that isn't enough, we can have poison function similary to ignite in league of legends: In addition to being a good damage over time source, it would also halve healing, making it a good counter to sustain tanks (Synthesis/Ingrain/Giga Drain or other lifesteal movesets)

So yeah, I agree that messing with the health formula may upset the delicate balance the pokemon games already had, but together with the energy system I think we're able to create a more varied and balanced metagame. And there's only about 170 moves currently in Starmon, I'll expand on those as necessary, add moves that will shake up dominant strategies and so on. I agree completely that the map may be severely unbalanced at the start, but it'll need testing and it will be fixed - We can just move the bonus health % to a better point, even if its just barely enough to prevent starmon from 1HKO'ing glass cannons. The important part is that balance is possible, but achieving it will be a challenge :)

Multibattles:
I want 2v2s in the game, Zelda does too. It just takes time, a lot of it. The entire combat system is currently structured around 1v1. Zelda has kept in mind 2v2s though and he can probably reuse large amounts of code, making things a bit easier. Still, planning out the entire trigger architecture and so on is an issue, and I will have to do some minor modifications to moves that hit multiple targets (Visuals...). We'll work on that when we can. Who knows, we might have it useable by release, we might not. (Considering just how many missions/quests/random events we want to add, release may actually be far away enough that 2v2s will be included)

But there won't be 3v3s. I think that's the point where things just get too messy, and chances are 3v3s will have a completely different metagame than 1v1s and 2v2s (Which will surely have differences as well) due to focus firing becoming even more effective - I'm guessing it'll be a game of either who has the most AoE, most glass cannons or most tanks/bruisers, and that everything else will be ignored. Balancing both 2v2s and 1v1s while making as little as possible changes to moves between the two will already be an issue, but I think 3v3s will just end up too different to be able to balance all three match types.

Match types that are based on 1v1s and 2v2s but with specific rule sets may be an option though (Like, for example, no swapouts whatsoever, shared health between all starmon, shared energy, swapouts being forced into party order, forced swapout after each turn, each player gets to pick one of the opposing starmon and they are swapped between the players, any combination of these, etc.), but Zelda is the one who knows how much of an issue that would be so it's up to him. If we do something like that, it'd probably be low priority.

Also, about the alpha test: With me being lazy, and Zelda's school preparing for hell month (exams), I don't think we'll get anything out anytime soon. We need more terrain from Mozared, we need me to get off my lazy ass, and Zelda has some bugs to fix (And probably a whole lot more once we do a private test to see whether multiplayer works at all) in addition to anything new I may need him to make and any quests we want to have.

We haven't posted in a while, mostly because we barely did anything.

But that has changed ;) Lots of progress! Not done yet though, and Zelda doesn't wanna reveal it til he's completely done with it (Or at least has come far enough to make him sure he won't scrap it due to not working). It seems to have reached that point, but he isn't online at the moment so I can't ask him :(

But there will be a new video soon. Two if Zelda's thing is presentable.

But Maity, does that mean that the first video is something completely different from Zelda's thing?

Yes!

What could it be?

I'll answer with a small screenshot :)

I should finish up some terrain.

I think I'll have time again on tuesday or wednesday, actually - expect a screenie or two from me after.

Somehow I got the urge to hug a doll...

You don't happen to have a "Hug" attack, do you?