A quick question about the heroes. They mostly all seem to be ranged. How many melee are you planning to start with? Maybe two less then ranged?
Unlike the roach from the actual game, the roach soldier hero is melee; Gui Montag has very short ranged flamethrowers, so you could consider him melee as well. Also there are some unannounced melee heroes, so there is a fairly good balance between melee and ranged heroes, I guess.
Not sure, what you mean. The model is available for everyone. Just in the normal ladder game, the CE thors are restricted to people buying the CE; in the editor or in custom maps, everyone can "get" them.
PS: Will the map be able to have AIs? The ability to set their difficulty? Anything like that at all? Or if there is AI support, they all act the same way, of course some differentiation for the different heroes, but still, would they act excruciatingly similar?
Implementing bots, especially challenging ones, is extremely difficult. I am sure I will try it at some point, but the first release will most likely not utilize bots.
So say, player A has CE and player B doesn't. Is it possible to give A and B the CE Thor? If yes, what about player A having normal Thor, with player B having CE Thor? Finally, can player A or B have both normal and CE Thor at the same time?
Shame. Well, as long as they come out at some point, I guess it's all right. :)
PS: Oh! Completely forgot...what about -debug? You had it in HLW RoC, can that work here too? (Instead of typing -wave # like then, can we instead receive whatever creeps/mercs we send? Like, say I send a bunch of Zerglings, instead of them going to the other lanes like it did in HLWRoC, could we receive them like the other team sent it to us? I've got other -debug questions, but I'll try not to overload you in one post.)
Warning: Inquisitive mind at work.
Warning: Insanity is on the horizon.
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
Unlike the roach from the actual game, the roach soldier hero is melee; Gui Montag has very short ranged flamethrowers, so you could consider him melee as well. Also there are some unannounced melee heroes, so there is a fairly good balance between melee and ranged heroes, I guess.
Cool :) I just realized I didn't consider Gui Montag a melee. Thought it was 1-3, and thats kinda why I posted.
So say, player A has CE and player B doesn't. Is it possible to give A and B the CE Thor? If yes, what about player A having normal Thor, with player B having CE Thor? Finally, can player A or B have both normal and CE Thor at the same time?
This is all handled by actor events. You can check, if one player has the CE bought or not, and swap the models accordingly.
For a melee game, the actors check, if the player building the Thor has the CE; if yes, it switches the model to the CE thor for everyone to see. It would even be possible to replace the thor model by a marine or something; this would probably screw up the visuals a little :D
In my map, I just used the CE thor model for the hero without any change for players with the CE.
Quote:
PS: Oh! Completely forgot...what about -debug? You had it in HLW RoC, can that work here too? (Instead of typing -wave # like then, can we instead receive whatever creeps/mercs we send? Like, say I send a bunch of Zerglings, instead of them going to the other lanes like it did in HLWRoC, could we receive them like the other team sent it to us? I've got other -debug questions, but I'll try not to overload you in one post.)
I will definitely implement a mode to test certain features of the map. The "receive what you send" feature you suggest was already present in later versions of HLW RoC (if played singleplayer and debug mode).
Sorry, exams are starting in a week, probably no new updates soon.
Didn't seem it sometimes, and it only duplicated what was sent to the other lane instead of it only coming for you. (Would be nice if you could -debug with 2 people, each sending stuff at themselves. Ways to remove income/downgrade sender would've been good too, so you could be like you were from a fresh game each time. With auras buffing stuff sent to you as well would've been cool. Ah well, I digress...)
I wish you the best of luck anyone has ever had on exams, as well as for them to be short, concise, simple, and for them to be over shortly. Not to mention complete jokes because they're so easy. (I've heard of some like that before.) Anyway, yeah, focus on exams until they're over, so long-term development is more likely. :) (Beta versions only last so long, normal versions only last so long too. New stuff is kinda what keeps it alive.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Warning: Inquisitive mind at work.
Warning: Insanity is on the horizon.
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
Finished the most important exams, so I will have some more time for the map now.
I am currently into the items, and I would like to get some opinions from you:
My current system would feature 2 major types of items:
Equipment items
These include usual stuff like armor, helmet, boots (generally speaking; currently their names are slightly different to be able to apply to different heroes as best as possible; it might not be the best to use a helmet and boots for some vehicles or zerg creatures; so they are called like Movement Enhancers or Vision Enhancers)
You can equip a limited number of each of these (for example 1 movement enhancer, 1 armor enhancer, 2 weapon enhancers).
All equipment items are passive and do not have any active abilities (for easier usage; they are in an additional item container, so using active spells out of this container would be quite an act; especially considering the missing hotkeys for container items)
Usually, all of these items offer some unique benefits, but you have to decide, which one to get for your hero (as an example: The Helmet or Vision Enhancer slot could have 3 different items: A vision booster, which extends your line of sight - yes, unlike in WC3 the map will not be visible all the time; sight will be required - , a range booster, which extends the weapon range for ranged heroes and a protective booster, which provides armor or damage reduction). So you need to choose carefully; there might be multipe options to increase your armor, but the helmet might be the only way to boost your range; so you need to decide, if you can sacrifice some armor for range or vice-versa.
Most equipment items are upgradeable; for example you might purchase a cheap movespeed booster for lets say 20% increased movespeed. You cannot stack multiple ones since you only have one movement enhancement slot, and other slots might not provide movespeed in any way. However you can upgrade the movespeed booster to level 2 or 3; which might even be very expensive, to gain additional movespeed.
No such things as recipe items or set items or something alike. Maybe in future versions, but definitely not for the initial release.
Consumable items
These include all items, which can be used. Right now, there are only charged items, which will be depleted, once all charges are used. I might add some permanent useable items as well.
You have 5 slots for your consumables, which are accessible via inventory hotkeys. These can be remapped in your SC2 settings, so usage should be fine.
5 additional storage or click-usage slots in your equipment inventory
Consumables with charges can be stacked in one slot up to a maximum amount (currently 50)
These consumables include:
basic healing items (for healing health, energy or shields)
visibility items (like wards in WC3)
temporary buff items
Also note, that I don't plan to implement simple healing potions, which will heal only yourself for a set amount of hitpoints.
I would like the items to have some more specific uses and to be beneficial to the team.
For example there will be multiple choices for healing items to choose from; these might include stuff like:
A healing station, which heals nearby allies one at a time.
An item, which might emit a healing pulse to all nearby allies.
And a third item might work similar to a healing salve in WC3, so it is useable on yourself or your allies, healing health over time, but only out of combat, or at least with a stronger effect out of combat.
Consumables cannot be upgraded (since upgrading equipment items is done by using them; which would obviously not work with consumables), but there will be different tiers of consumable items; cheap consumables for starters and more expensive and powerful ones.
I'd like to hear your opinion about these features. Nothing of this is final yet; but I like quite some of the aspects, so it very well might turn out this way, also depending on your feedback.
Sounds all good and solid. I like the approach with the consumables especially.
One thing though: If you want to restrict the equipping of equipment items with categories, that's fine even if it's not like in WC3 (Adds a tactical element, though!). But make sure to setup the inventory extremely intiutive: In my map I found people wondering why they couldn't carry more items, since they had room in their inventory. Of course their last free slot would be a consumable slot.
What I'm saying is that for a quick-paced game like this you don't want your players wondering about stuff like this. Also it can turn out frustrating if you buy a helmet only to realize, that your helmet slot is full.
Not saying it's a bad idea, in fact I think it's great. Just make sure it's obvious in the inventory as well as in the shops.
Sounds all good and solid. I like the approach with the consumables especially.
One thing though: If you want to restrict the equipping of equipment items with categories, that's fine even if it's not like in WC3 (Adds a tactical element, though!). But make sure to setup the inventory extremely intiutive: In my map I found people wondering why they couldn't carry more items, since they had room in their inventory. Of course their last free slot would be a consumable slot.
What I'm saying is that for a quick-paced game like this you don't want your players wondering about stuff like this. Also it can turn out frustrating if you buy a helmet only to realize, that your helmet slot is full.
Not saying it's a bad idea, in fact I think it's great. Just make sure it's obvious in the inventory as well as in the shops.
Greetings
Good call; I plan on creating individual shops for each type and make very obvious, that you can only have a limited amount of items from this shop equipped.
What about the amount of different slots? I don't want to overdo it, but I have already quite some item types, currently helmet, armor, boots, weapon and accessory + the consumables. I definitely don't want to add much more; in fact I am worried, it could be too much already. What do you think?
not sure if its possible, but give different slots different background images and tooltips when empty.
I like the idea :) Unfortunately i had to scrap all items from my map since i just couldn't be bothered to make more, making the loots, and then the whole floor would be littered with items cause no one picked them up -.- And with my new system, there's very little time for picking up or selling items... I might reintroduce items using my talent system (as unlockables)
I think 4 categories for equipped is enough, making it too many makes it noob-unfriendly, but also makes better players have more choices.
I like the idea about consumables, but some "permanent" consumables might be good as well (so that you don't have to run back to a shop), they could be kind of like abilities. Graviton Beam, Chain Lightning, Pocket Time Bomb, Short Cloak, etc.
I hope you get done sometime soon :) at least a playable version. Or a demo for Map Night, you could collect a lot of feedback that way.
not sure if its possible, but give different slots different background images and tooltips when empty.
Well, you can actually give the different slots different background buttons in the data editor, but they do not appear ingame for item containers. For the consumable slots, this works fine. Maybe a bug or an unfinished feature; lets hope they will fix certain inventory issues when they release blizzard dota.
Quote:
I hope you get done sometime soon :) at least a playable version. Or a demo for Map Night, you could collect a lot of feedback that way.
I hope to reach this state as well, trying the map at map night is definitely something i look forward to.
Liking it so far, except for the items. And only a small problem. One armor, 2 weapons? Sorry, it makes sense the other way around (2 armors 1 weapon), especially since I'm sure many weapons are going to be "2-handed" (even gauss rifles use 2 hands per rifle, normally). Was thinking like, one helm, one torso, and one legs, but realized: that's 3.
Another thought! What about different items for each "race"? Terrans use guns, Protoss use psionic stuff, and Zerg obviously use biological weaponry, and similar stuff for their armors. Perhaps Terrans have armors like suits (marine suit, viking suit, [name] suit, etc), since they're always in some kind of suit of armor (unless they're like BCs, but then they have dress suits). And I've not a clue what you'd do for Protoss (at least name wise) but Zerg would be different carapaces for armors, probably claws/spines for weapons.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Warning: Inquisitive mind at work.
Warning: Insanity is on the horizon.
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
Do you dislike just the points you mentioned, or is anything else bothering you? Or do you even dislike the overall item system?
Quote:
And only a small problem. One armor, 2 weapons? Sorry, it makes sense the other way around (2 armors 1 weapon), especially since I'm sure many weapons are going to be "2-handed" (even gauss rifles use 2 hands per rifle, normally). Was thinking like, one helm, one torso, and one legs, but realized: that's 3.
Well, the numbers can be changed, of course. Like stated, the items are not meant to be a real helmet or weapon, but just similar things (helmet = vision enhancer or something, weapon = weapon enhancer), so it does not really matter if you put for example 2 power cores in 1 weapon :)
I disliked the concept for WC3, where you would equip a sword to cause more damage with your crossbow anyways, but I don't want the unit to change the weapon, when it equips a new one as well. So my items will not be actual weapons and they will not change your weapon. They will just be weapon enhancers and improve certain aspects (same for other item types).
Quote:
Another thought! What about different items for each "race"? Terrans use guns, Protoss use psionic stuff, and Zerg obviously use biological weaponry, and similar stuff for their armors. Perhaps Terrans have armors like suits (marine suit, viking suit, [name] suit, etc), since they're always in some kind of suit of armor (unless they're like BCs, but then they have dress suits). And I've not a clue what you'd do for Protoss (at least name wise) but Zerg would be different carapaces for armors, probably claws/spines for weapons.
Crossed my mind as well, but I decided against it. It will be hard enough to balance different heroes and different races to send creeps. Hero or race dependent items are overkill imo (not to mention a ton of work).
so what your saying about the "weapon items" would be something like "sniper scope" addition to a rifle to increase range (and damage maybe) instead of sniper rifle?
I thought more along the lines of each race can only buy certain items. Like, a Zerg hero walks up, can buy what it allows him to buy, and can give it to someone else even if they aren't zerg, but they can't buy it themselves. They're allied with a zerg, so it could in theory work. (SC1: Lieutenant Duran worked with Kerrigan, went from Terran Infantry Armor to Zerg Carapace. What's to stop Kueken from having his "version" of Duran from having Terran Infantry Armor AND Zerg Carapace?)
Anyway, I'm sorta rambling again. Or it sure feels like it. But my point got across, right?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Warning: Inquisitive mind at work.
Warning: Insanity is on the horizon.
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
I thought more along the lines of each race can only buy certain items. Like, a Zerg hero walks up, can buy what it allows him to buy, and can give it to someone else even if they aren't zerg, but they can't buy it themselves. They're allied with a zerg, so it could in theory work. (SC1: Lieutenant Duran worked with Kerrigan, went from Terran Infantry Armor to Zerg Carapace. What's to stop Kueken from having his "version" of Duran from having Terran Infantry Armor AND Zerg Carapace?)
Anyway, I'm sorta rambling again. Or it sure feels like it. But my point got across, right?
So in other words its useless.
I dont like that idea lol.
& it just adds more pointless work :S
no offense.
Yeah if you keep it with item enhancements, you wouldn't have to worry about making it real... Almost like socket slots or something.
Indeed, no real difference how items work, but some more logic behind it (well, at least to some point. Equipping Ultralisk Kaiser Blades with some energy core or a sniper scope might not make that much sense at all :D - well a sniper scope, which extends range should not be available for melee attacks anyway - so much for not having restricted items :-p )
Btw Sandman, I changed the numbers of the items, your comment about 2 weapons etc kinda made sense.
So for now I have 1 slot for each kind except accessory items, which have 2 slots; however the accessory items will have some weaker stats most likely anyways.
So right now we have following slots:
1 weapon enhancer (aka weapon)
1 vision enhancer (aka helmet)
1 armor enhancer (aka armor)
1 movement enhancer (aka boots)
2 accessory item slots (aka rings/amulets?)
+ the 5 consumable slots
You may suggest some effects for each kind, if you have something in mind. I want the items to be fairly simple, but kinda unique and matching for the item types (so weapons for damage, armor for defense, but not damage on every item type there is). Also for all equipment items, they need to be passive.
For example weapon enhancers would be the main way of increasing your damage, of course. There could be items for ranged damage, melee damage , maybe spell damage. Also, they might increase range for ranged weapons or add stats of any kind.
Vision Enhancers could possibly increase vision (doh), maybe range, maybe spell damage, maybe get you some kind of detection, maybe some defensive capabilities, maybe some stats.
Accessory items could increase stats, spell damage, energy, hp/energy regeneration, something like that
Helmet would be vision, Boots would be movespeed, Weapon is obviously damage and perhaps attack speed, Armor would be armor and maybe some stats. Accessories would have assorted effects from movespeed to vision to armor to damage to attack speed to stats to spells and possibly more.
Or at least that'd be my guess with that if they're all supposed to do something. Obviously it being your map and me kinda sucking at SC2 mapping I couldn't really do it myself, but those'd be my suggestions.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Warning: Inquisitive mind at work.
Warning: Insanity is on the horizon.
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
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Unlike the roach from the actual game, the roach soldier hero is melee; Gui Montag has very short ranged flamethrowers, so you could consider him melee as well. Also there are some unannounced melee heroes, so there is a fairly good balance between melee and ranged heroes, I guess.
So say, player A has CE and player B doesn't. Is it possible to give A and B the CE Thor? If yes, what about player A having normal Thor, with player B having CE Thor? Finally, can player A or B have both normal and CE Thor at the same time?
Shame. Well, as long as they come out at some point, I guess it's all right. :)
PS: Oh! Completely forgot...what about -debug? You had it in HLW RoC, can that work here too? (Instead of typing -wave # like then, can we instead receive whatever creeps/mercs we send? Like, say I send a bunch of Zerglings, instead of them going to the other lanes like it did in HLWRoC, could we receive them like the other team sent it to us? I've got other -debug questions, but I'll try not to overload you in one post.)
Cool :) I just realized I didn't consider Gui Montag a melee. Thought it was 1-3, and thats kinda why I posted.
This is all handled by actor events. You can check, if one player has the CE bought or not, and swap the models accordingly.
For a melee game, the actors check, if the player building the Thor has the CE; if yes, it switches the model to the CE thor for everyone to see. It would even be possible to replace the thor model by a marine or something; this would probably screw up the visuals a little :D
In my map, I just used the CE thor model for the hero without any change for players with the CE.
I will definitely implement a mode to test certain features of the map. The "receive what you send" feature you suggest was already present in later versions of HLW RoC (if played singleplayer and debug mode).
Sorry, exams are starting in a week, probably no new updates soon.
:) Good luck on your exams, can't wait for test phase.
@Kueken531: Go
Didn't seem it sometimes, and it only duplicated what was sent to the other lane instead of it only coming for you. (Would be nice if you could -debug with 2 people, each sending stuff at themselves. Ways to remove income/downgrade sender would've been good too, so you could be like you were from a fresh game each time. With auras buffing stuff sent to you as well would've been cool. Ah well, I digress...)
I wish you the best of luck anyone has ever had on exams, as well as for them to be short, concise, simple, and for them to be over shortly. Not to mention complete jokes because they're so easy. (I've heard of some like that before.) Anyway, yeah, focus on exams until they're over, so long-term development is more likely. :) (Beta versions only last so long, normal versions only last so long too. New stuff is kinda what keeps it alive.)
Finished the most important exams, so I will have some more time for the map now.
I am currently into the items, and I would like to get some opinions from you:
My current system would feature 2 major types of items:
Equipment items
Consumable items
I'd like to hear your opinion about these features. Nothing of this is final yet; but I like quite some of the aspects, so it very well might turn out this way, also depending on your feedback.
Sounds all good and solid. I like the approach with the consumables especially.
One thing though: If you want to restrict the equipping of equipment items with categories, that's fine even if it's not like in WC3 (Adds a tactical element, though!). But make sure to setup the inventory extremely intiutive: In my map I found people wondering why they couldn't carry more items, since they had room in their inventory. Of course their last free slot would be a consumable slot.
What I'm saying is that for a quick-paced game like this you don't want your players wondering about stuff like this. Also it can turn out frustrating if you buy a helmet only to realize, that your helmet slot is full.
Not saying it's a bad idea, in fact I think it's great. Just make sure it's obvious in the inventory as well as in the shops.
Greetings
Good call; I plan on creating individual shops for each type and make very obvious, that you can only have a limited amount of items from this shop equipped.
What about the amount of different slots? I don't want to overdo it, but I have already quite some item types, currently helmet, armor, boots, weapon and accessory + the consumables. I definitely don't want to add much more; in fact I am worried, it could be too much already. What do you think?
not sure if its possible, but give different slots different background images and tooltips when empty.
I like the idea :) Unfortunately i had to scrap all items from my map since i just couldn't be bothered to make more, making the loots, and then the whole floor would be littered with items cause no one picked them up -.- And with my new system, there's very little time for picking up or selling items... I might reintroduce items using my talent system (as unlockables)
I think 4 categories for equipped is enough, making it too many makes it noob-unfriendly, but also makes better players have more choices.
I like the idea about consumables, but some "permanent" consumables might be good as well (so that you don't have to run back to a shop), they could be kind of like abilities. Graviton Beam, Chain Lightning, Pocket Time Bomb, Short Cloak, etc.
I hope you get done sometime soon :) at least a playable version. Or a demo for Map Night, you could collect a lot of feedback that way.
This is looking good :)
I use to love hero line in war3 :) I want to see more heroes!!!!!! You are doing good so far i liked your spells for sure...
Well, you can actually give the different slots different background buttons in the data editor, but they do not appear ingame for item containers. For the consumable slots, this works fine. Maybe a bug or an unfinished feature; lets hope they will fix certain inventory issues when they release blizzard dota.
I hope to reach this state as well, trying the map at map night is definitely something i look forward to.
Thanks :)
Of course, the first version will not have like hundreds of heroes; I plan on adding more in later versions of the game.
Liking it so far, except for the items. And only a small problem. One armor, 2 weapons? Sorry, it makes sense the other way around (2 armors 1 weapon), especially since I'm sure many weapons are going to be "2-handed" (even gauss rifles use 2 hands per rifle, normally). Was thinking like, one helm, one torso, and one legs, but realized: that's 3.
Another thought! What about different items for each "race"? Terrans use guns, Protoss use psionic stuff, and Zerg obviously use biological weaponry, and similar stuff for their armors. Perhaps Terrans have armors like suits (marine suit, viking suit, [name] suit, etc), since they're always in some kind of suit of armor (unless they're like BCs, but then they have dress suits). And I've not a clue what you'd do for Protoss (at least name wise) but Zerg would be different carapaces for armors, probably claws/spines for weapons.
Do you dislike just the points you mentioned, or is anything else bothering you? Or do you even dislike the overall item system?
Well, the numbers can be changed, of course. Like stated, the items are not meant to be a real helmet or weapon, but just similar things (helmet = vision enhancer or something, weapon = weapon enhancer), so it does not really matter if you put for example 2 power cores in 1 weapon :)
I disliked the concept for WC3, where you would equip a sword to cause more damage with your crossbow anyways, but I don't want the unit to change the weapon, when it equips a new one as well. So my items will not be actual weapons and they will not change your weapon. They will just be weapon enhancers and improve certain aspects (same for other item types).
Crossed my mind as well, but I decided against it. It will be hard enough to balance different heroes and different races to send creeps. Hero or race dependent items are overkill imo (not to mention a ton of work).
so what your saying about the "weapon items" would be something like "sniper scope" addition to a rifle to increase range (and damage maybe) instead of sniper rifle?
cool- will try this when it comes out
Yeah if you keep it with item enhancements, you wouldn't have to worry about making it real... Almost like socket slots or something.
I thought more along the lines of each race can only buy certain items. Like, a Zerg hero walks up, can buy what it allows him to buy, and can give it to someone else even if they aren't zerg, but they can't buy it themselves. They're allied with a zerg, so it could in theory work. (SC1: Lieutenant Duran worked with Kerrigan, went from Terran Infantry Armor to Zerg Carapace. What's to stop Kueken from having his "version" of Duran from having Terran Infantry Armor AND Zerg Carapace?)
Anyway, I'm sorta rambling again. Or it sure feels like it. But my point got across, right?
So in other words its useless. I dont like that idea lol. & it just adds more pointless work :S no offense.
Well, sorry Sandman, but he has got a point here :/
Maybe some time in the future; however I somehow dislike the idea of "class-specific" items as well.
Indeed, no real difference how items work, but some more logic behind it (well, at least to some point. Equipping Ultralisk Kaiser Blades with some energy core or a sniper scope might not make that much sense at all :D - well a sniper scope, which extends range should not be available for melee attacks anyway - so much for not having restricted items :-p )
Btw Sandman, I changed the numbers of the items, your comment about 2 weapons etc kinda made sense.
So for now I have 1 slot for each kind except accessory items, which have 2 slots; however the accessory items will have some weaker stats most likely anyways.
So right now we have following slots:
+ the 5 consumable slots
You may suggest some effects for each kind, if you have something in mind. I want the items to be fairly simple, but kinda unique and matching for the item types (so weapons for damage, armor for defense, but not damage on every item type there is). Also for all equipment items, they need to be passive.
For example weapon enhancers would be the main way of increasing your damage, of course. There could be items for ranged damage, melee damage , maybe spell damage. Also, they might increase range for ranged weapons or add stats of any kind.
Vision Enhancers could possibly increase vision (doh), maybe range, maybe spell damage, maybe get you some kind of detection, maybe some defensive capabilities, maybe some stats.
Accessory items could increase stats, spell damage, energy, hp/energy regeneration, something like that
Helmet would be vision, Boots would be movespeed, Weapon is obviously damage and perhaps attack speed, Armor would be armor and maybe some stats. Accessories would have assorted effects from movespeed to vision to armor to damage to attack speed to stats to spells and possibly more.
Or at least that'd be my guess with that if they're all supposed to do something. Obviously it being your map and me kinda sucking at SC2 mapping I couldn't really do it myself, but those'd be my suggestions.