Well the project didn't start out that way. The more I worked on it though, the more I came to same conclusions B DotA did. I don't care if you believe me, but most of the work I did was before I knew B DotA was only going to have 3 statistics, was going to change how jungle camps worked, was going to have attacks that outranged towers, was not going to use last hits, etc... And you know what, it all made sense. Everything they're doing makes perfect sense and I think I need to take the map in a new direction entirely. You're right that I shouldn't create Blizzard DotA, I will enjoy playing that when it comes out much more than I would enjoy a half baked attempt at making it myself.
Blizzard DOTA isn't infallible, and its core design has a lot of flaws in it too, at least in my opinion. But you took that and went the wrong way with it. Even then, paying people to make a similar map just isn't worth your money.
But with Blizzard DOTA, the removal of last hitting could be taken in a completely different direction. The globe mechanic just doesn't add enough skill to the lane. Competitive players want to show off their skills; laning is one of the primary avenues for this in DOTA. The neutral camps are cool, but in a map about heroes, I'd rather have points of interest that have an effect that actually has something to do with the heroes, such as giving a gold boost, as opposed to adding in neutral camps to push waves. The point-of-interest tension is still there, but the focus is on the player and their hero and the decisions they make.
Beyond that, I don't like how the majority of Blizzard DOTA's items are unlimited-actives; I wish they used charged items for their effect items because then they would run out and players would have to weigh much more heavily how they spend their gold. If they want to buy more charged items to help them in fights, they won't have as high of stat upgrades. Discovering that happy medium adds more tension, decision making and skill to the game.
Having edited and played ROC DOTA and played Allstars, there seems to be a continuum in AoS maps with one side at Chess Match and the other side at Hero Arena. Chess Match meaning strategical decision making in terms of where to send heroes focusing on destroying the other team's base to win the game, whereas Hero Arena means that the primary focus is killing Heroes to gain an advantage in the game and ultimately destroy the other team's base. Allstars falls far on the Hero Arena side, and with it comes the ugly snowball effect. RoC DOTA falls somewhere in the middle, probably a bit closer to the Chess Match side, however the map is very old and has a lot of mechanical flaws that have cropped up over time and were never fixed due to a dwindling community. However my fear with Blizzard DOTA is that the individual skill cap will be fundamentally lower and that the way to gain advantages in games is going to be very heavily related strategical decision making by your team. This leads towards a shift to the Chess Match side. Furthermore, the neutral camps will cause a shift to Chess Match as well, considering how having a "Siege" hero is basically counterproductive to wanting to capture the camps. Siege heroes aren't great in fights; Merc camps require team fights to take control of.
@LoneVandal: Go
The neutral camps are cool, but in a map about heroes, I'd rather have points of interest that have an effect that actually has something to do with the heroes, such as giving a gold boost, as opposed to adding in neutral camps to push waves. The point-of-interest tension is still there, but the focus is on the player and their hero and the decisions they make.
It is funny you say that, because my idea for camps was to change them into outposts that players control and can buy items and heal at (limited of course), as well as getting gold over time boosts from them. Sort of like a mini-base. The game starts out they are neutral, and when one side clears them a Medevac flies in and drops off a squad of mercs under your team's colors. The Medevac has energy and can heal your team, but if it runs out you have to let it recharge, so people in lane can't just abuse it for infinite health. But still, this does not solve my other issues. Changing camps and leaving everything else the same is pretty much the same game.
Something else I was considering was going away from Heroes into Classes (along with removing Archetypes), lowering the number available intentionally, and making them more distinct from each other.
Sadly, I occasionally read up on this project. Know in advance that I have never liked DOTA, or DOTA copycat maps. I do however understand what makes maps popular.
Above it is suggested that Blizzards DOTA is gearing more towards a chess game. Teamwork, communication, plans, ect. You are going to have to assume they will have their bases covered.
Why type of player do games like that bring in? Team players. Usually older players. Strategy players, who like to stay 5-6 moves ahead.
If you were to make a hero arena based DOTA (like allstars) then you are geared towards what? Personal accomplishments. Kill streaks. Denying. team carry builds, ect.
What type of player do games like that bring in? Elitists, younger players, players who only need to stay 1 step ahead.
If you compare the player types above, it is clear to see that two games like those, do not advertise to the same types of players. It wouldn't really be competition between the game, more as alternatives, to suit the style of play of players.
Sadly, I occasionally read up on this project. Know in advance that I have never liked DOTA, or DOTA copycat maps. I do however understand what makes maps popular.
Above it is suggested that Blizzards DOTA is gearing more towards a chess game. Teamwork, communication, plans, ect. You are going to have to assume they will have their bases covered.
Why type of player do games like that bring in? Team players. Usually older players. Strategy players, who like to stay 5-6 moves ahead.
If you were to make a hero arena based DOTA (like allstars) then you are geared towards what? Personal accomplishments. Kill streaks. Denying. team carry builds, ect.
What type of player do games like that bring in? Elitists, younger players, players who only need to stay 1 step ahead.
If you compare the player types above, it is clear to see that two games like those, do not advertise to the same types of players. It wouldn't really be competition between the game, more as alternatives, to suit the style of play of players.
I'm moving away from DotA almost entirely, the only thing that will resemble it is that the classes have a set of 4-5 skills you activate by pressing a hotkey, and that it is a team based game with the objective of destroying the enemy base. Beyond that, there won't really be laning, experience points, gold, items, etc...
The game will be much more about interacting with the map itself and fast paced PvP action with low respawn timers, the ability to change class while dead, and I am thinking about 7v7 teams now. I will post more when I have a more complete concept in mind, I need help from a terrain person on my team to get to that point.
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Blizzard DOTA isn't infallible, and its core design has a lot of flaws in it too, at least in my opinion. But you took that and went the wrong way with it. Even then, paying people to make a similar map just isn't worth your money.
But with Blizzard DOTA, the removal of last hitting could be taken in a completely different direction. The globe mechanic just doesn't add enough skill to the lane. Competitive players want to show off their skills; laning is one of the primary avenues for this in DOTA. The neutral camps are cool, but in a map about heroes, I'd rather have points of interest that have an effect that actually has something to do with the heroes, such as giving a gold boost, as opposed to adding in neutral camps to push waves. The point-of-interest tension is still there, but the focus is on the player and their hero and the decisions they make.
Beyond that, I don't like how the majority of Blizzard DOTA's items are unlimited-actives; I wish they used charged items for their effect items because then they would run out and players would have to weigh much more heavily how they spend their gold. If they want to buy more charged items to help them in fights, they won't have as high of stat upgrades. Discovering that happy medium adds more tension, decision making and skill to the game.
Having edited and played ROC DOTA and played Allstars, there seems to be a continuum in AoS maps with one side at Chess Match and the other side at Hero Arena. Chess Match meaning strategical decision making in terms of where to send heroes focusing on destroying the other team's base to win the game, whereas Hero Arena means that the primary focus is killing Heroes to gain an advantage in the game and ultimately destroy the other team's base. Allstars falls far on the Hero Arena side, and with it comes the ugly snowball effect. RoC DOTA falls somewhere in the middle, probably a bit closer to the Chess Match side, however the map is very old and has a lot of mechanical flaws that have cropped up over time and were never fixed due to a dwindling community. However my fear with Blizzard DOTA is that the individual skill cap will be fundamentally lower and that the way to gain advantages in games is going to be very heavily related strategical decision making by your team. This leads towards a shift to the Chess Match side. Furthermore, the neutral camps will cause a shift to Chess Match as well, considering how having a "Siege" hero is basically counterproductive to wanting to capture the camps. Siege heroes aren't great in fights; Merc camps require team fights to take control of.
It is funny you say that, because my idea for camps was to change them into outposts that players control and can buy items and heal at (limited of course), as well as getting gold over time boosts from them. Sort of like a mini-base. The game starts out they are neutral, and when one side clears them a Medevac flies in and drops off a squad of mercs under your team's colors. The Medevac has energy and can heal your team, but if it runs out you have to let it recharge, so people in lane can't just abuse it for infinite health. But still, this does not solve my other issues. Changing camps and leaving everything else the same is pretty much the same game.
Something else I was considering was going away from Heroes into Classes (along with removing Archetypes), lowering the number available intentionally, and making them more distinct from each other.
is blizzard dota released yet? i haven't seen it, better search it
Not yet, but it was playable at Blizzcon and they did a whole panel on it. Go watch the panel vid on Youtube.
Sadly, I occasionally read up on this project. Know in advance that I have never liked DOTA, or DOTA copycat maps. I do however understand what makes maps popular.
Above it is suggested that Blizzards DOTA is gearing more towards a chess game. Teamwork, communication, plans, ect. You are going to have to assume they will have their bases covered.
Why type of player do games like that bring in? Team players. Usually older players. Strategy players, who like to stay 5-6 moves ahead.
If you were to make a hero arena based DOTA (like allstars) then you are geared towards what? Personal accomplishments. Kill streaks. Denying. team carry builds, ect.
What type of player do games like that bring in? Elitists, younger players, players who only need to stay 1 step ahead.
If you compare the player types above, it is clear to see that two games like those, do not advertise to the same types of players. It wouldn't really be competition between the game, more as alternatives, to suit the style of play of players.
Just a thought.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
Listen to this man.
I'm moving away from DotA almost entirely, the only thing that will resemble it is that the classes have a set of 4-5 skills you activate by pressing a hotkey, and that it is a team based game with the objective of destroying the enemy base. Beyond that, there won't really be laning, experience points, gold, items, etc...
The game will be much more about interacting with the map itself and fast paced PvP action with low respawn timers, the ability to change class while dead, and I am thinking about 7v7 teams now. I will post more when I have a more complete concept in mind, I need help from a terrain person on my team to get to that point.