Leave that secondary quest, but add it as secondary objective (add it to the left top corner). Try with 10,000 instead of 5000, this should be secondary objective. Lots of people are complaining ingame how short game is now.
Now some useful feedback:
Targeting range. There should be(always or toggle) option to display shortest range of your weapon; radius(circle) around your unit.
Inventory: Do something about those "empty" slots. They look ugly. Also, for newcomers its really hard to know what slot is for what. I know its written, when you are buying item, but that takes too much time. So instead, just place 1 icon on the left side, greyed out that will represent each row.
Machine Guns: increase damage from 5 to 7 or 8 for level 1. Decrease damage to bio to 40%. Actually increase dmg for all levels. Its quite useless against other weapons.
I think level 1 projectile is hard to see...
Also I would change name to Pulse Rifle. Machine gun isnt quite useful for farming, only on drones.
Drone upgrade weapon is useless when comparing with weapon you can place to that slow.
Redo some abilities. I think people arent using some.
Improve Turret control. Its ok like it is now but I would make it timed. And when you spawn 2nd turret out of 1, the one you placed should be destroyed.
Tho not sure which one is better in comparison.
Add more weapon(s) ? Like Guass Rifle for example. Slow reload. But this weapon's range could increase how you upgrade it. Damage should be medium.
Flamer would be also great against biological, medium range. For farming, but almost no dmg against vehicles. Tho that would require some balancing.
Costs: Vehicle cost should be;
Lv1: free or same
Lv3: Around 12
Secondary objective to something around 50 or 60 minutes. Since 45 is just perfect.
Return being able to buy units.
Requires gas, but takes gas that is used to build nuclear weapon(and make cinematic for that).
Victory conditions are same as the old ones. Destroy both landing towers. Kill fortress. Win.
AI upgrades troops automatically. Increasing spawns as you own fewer outposts is removed. Always 4 marines and 2 marauders will spawn.
I want to try and stop needing to spend time on the gameplay. There's literally hundreds of things I want to add, and the list is just growing longer while all my time is devoted to how to win.
I slipped in a taste of the future, though. It's a non-stacking group buff armour item. The idea here is that you work as a team and each have some support module, or just one player plays as a full on supporter. Alternatively you all just go straight up kill mode, but the choice is there! I hope you find this item interesting at least!
I'm just hope Eiviyn will start to actually think about all the feedback we're stating, rather than playing randomly with that "feeling" stuff. If that gonna follow that way, there's gonna be no one to play Catalyst and, of course, nobody to give any more feedback as well, as soon as it's not giving much of expected result.
Players were all OK about 1.3 model of gameplay, waiting for some new features, not for wrecking it entirely without any logical reasoning. Air vehicles, fighter drones, new featured weapons and systems, enhanced upgrading options, spawning and healing at planetary fortress, landscape tweaks, weapon/equipment visual adjustments, fixing prices and money gain, all of that repeated by different people for multiple times. But instead it's just gameplay disruption with exception for some good stuff, which somehow just making game shorter and less entertaining. Y'know, there was a SC:BW maps like SF whose prolonged for like 2-3 hours to pass trough, but no one were crying about this beign too long.
It's just like you want you map to be played more, rather than just being good...
It's just like you want you map to be played more, rather than just being good...
Dont be a drama queen. Its really much harder sometimes to balance a game than to create it.
Sc2mapster isn`t exactly the best place to get a lot of feedback from either. Most players that play the maps dont even bother to stop by , anywhere, to give feedback. So, sometimes one has to go with gut instincts and stuff like that. Its really not very easy.
EternalWraith, I've been making map for a SC:BW maps back in a days, never having any troubles neither with balansing or filtering feedback. It's just not about "feels", it's about understanding the idea of map you're wanna make and smart working over the issues that can happen while you're implementing new features and systems. The gameplay is the thing that you're building in the first place aside from anything else, and that MUST be stable and relatively final on the 1.0 map version (first release besides alpha and beta phases). If you wish to tweak a gameplay after that, you're either better to make a new instance of initial project, or, as SC2 finally provides us with, to make a separate Game Mode for it.
Gameplay is the roots of any project. If you're twisting (critically changing) your gameplay after map was released, you're only getting people disgusted and disappointed. A washing machine that suddenly become a refrigerator? It's no about drama, it's about logic.
When you put that way, I do concede as I cannot argue with that. You are indeed correct.
I just felt you were being a bit harsh on Eiviyn. Its always good to give advice/feedback in a positive way , So that the designer is encouraged.
When people start taking a superior attitude over the designer, It doesn`t really feel nice at all, Saying things like "It Suxx"(That other guy).
So yeah, you are correct, but be more supportive and encouraging in a positive way, Giving logical and good points;)
The reason why I messed so much with gameplay is because I wasn't happy with it myself. I wanted short games from the start. This isn't so that the map would be played more, it's because that's how I, personally, play. I lose interest after 20 minutes or so.
I would consider this map to be very much in beta. I probably did go very overboard with sweeping changes. Now I know what does and doesn't work. I set out for an Arathi Basin style map. It's what I wanted from the beginning, a 20min long Arathi map. People hated it. There's nothing I can do about that, except bite my own tongue and make the changes people wanted.
I've never balanced on a feeling. It was entirely what I wanted from the beginning. Things just didn't translate too well into SC2 so I had to go against my initial design goal. I hope you enjoy the new (old?) gameplay. I'll probably have to re-design the base so that the fortress is more forward and the respawn is further at the back, dota style.
Eiviyn, m'lady, I should ask pardon for my rude words. It's just for the sake of quicker changes, and I haven't read your previous reply before making my own.
Your point of view is understandable. Still, if you're losing interest that fast, it's not about the game longtitude, that must be adjusted. Most people over there just make the opposite - they can't keep up with game coming to an end so fast. They barely enjoing it and can't feel the spirit of competition as result. The path that seems pretty obvious (my suggestions were based on it from the very start, I'm actually registered on the Mapster just for supporting your map), is that you must make game more fascinating, each game must be as much different from another as possible.
Good authors, for example, never were making their books shorter for their readers having no time to become bothered. They were making their books more interesting and enveloping, sometimes making tomes after tomes after tomes. Please, remember it. Making maps for any games is an art of figurally creating little worlds for other people's curiosity and joy. You must have a pride, confidence and definition of your little worlds, otherwise no one exept you will not be able to get attracted to it.
There is two main predecessors for Catalyst - Battle Tanks and Battleships. Both maps good and bad at different points. They're good because there's wide choise between the ways you can play. The're bad because lack of balance and ladder-based items system, where best items and best weapons and best bodies are existing. And that is where your map is better than these - you have weapons equal in price and power and almost equal in effectiveness and each having diferrent role and usage. Same with vehicles. That the great feat to being able to wishfully settle these stuff.
The problem is, you were looking for the wrong places about finding issues. Most of the people, I believe, will agree that the main one is the lack of content. Current cheme is the minimum package, as i consider. Also, I urgently recommend you to wide-up the frames of analysis about the existing features and ones yet to come.
For a subtle example, you'd think that three ballistic weapons are equal as they worth the same and have features that balance them among themselves. That is a judgement with frames around Items. But I would think that equal DPS of Cannons and Missiles with cannons applying Snare is not enough to scale properly with Missiles greater range, and that Guns having bonus versus Biological, but less DPS is not enough to scale with Missiles as well. That encourage people just to take Tanks with Misilles and Snare Drones and own everyone tactically, that the most powerful build that cannot be countered by ANY means. Also Missiles provide the best team-support opportunities, as if you're Warping toward that missile-lover, any additional fire you're taking, either from another missile-lover or just his team's Bios, is already means that you're dead. You cannot run and you cannot keep up with him. He can easily farm from safe distance, he can protect his Points with initial advantage, he can siege you with minimal risk involved. So I would make that missiles even slower, or make them with minimal range or just less powerful, but with adding style thinking, I would prefer minimal range, oh, and that Snare drones, damn, I would try to add some Armor item to shooting only at Robotic units to counter drones somehow, and that Guns i would add Armor Rating to dense plating, and that Cannons, well i would add Shield item to make an Ilussions of myself, and to counter them i would add short-range Detector to see which is real one, and so on, and so on, and so on, leading this strain towards all othe items, counters, vehicles and shaping a whole system of advantage/flaw dependencies. As result you'd see the map, where each player decide what he want to be good at a price to being vulnerable against something else. At that point everyone will see that the real power of that game would be the Team Play, the most essential feat of any competition and any multiplayer setting.
Oh, wait a minute, I'm lecturing again... such a smartass. Well, I just hope that you'll make something positive out of it. Just as I always wished to.
The reason why I messed so much with gameplay is because I wasn't happy
with it myself. I wanted short games from the start. This isn't so that
the map would be played more, it's because that's how I, personally,
play. I lose interest after 20 minutes or so.
I would consider this map to be very much in beta. I probably did go
very overboard with sweeping changes. Now I know what does and doesn't
work. I set out for an Arathi Basin style map. It's what I wanted from
the beginning, a 20min long Arathi map. People hated it. There's nothing
I can do about that, except bite my own tongue and make the changes
I've never balanced on a feeling. It was entirely what I wanted from the
beginning. Things just didn't translate too well into SC2 so I had to go
against my initial design goal. I hope you enjoy the new (old?)
gameplay. I'll probably have to re-design the base so that the fortress
is more forward and the respawn is further at the back, dota style.
Problem is that if you are making maps for yourself, or of developer is making games for their taste they wont get money, wont sell good, wont be played much.
Now I am suggesting you that you find something between. That's why there are modes. So add modes.
Personally I really liked that objective where you need to gather gas and nuke enemy. Problem with that was because level 3 items was unreachable in 20 minutes. Normal game length is 45 minutes.
Sure, you can make some mode, so game will last 20 minutes. But as I said. People didnt dislike how game lasts 20 minutes(mostly), reason was coz game ended for "no reason" and 90% of people didnt make to build level 4 items or vehicle.
If you ask me. Do your thing, do however you want this map to be. I am sure "fans" will moan and you will find something between.