Don't they have far longer connection range than turrets? Also, you could make power transfers one-way when powering turrets similar.
I had it one-way previously but it was bad for consistency. I don't want the power grid to become any more complex than it needs to be, and it's working pretty nicely at the moment. All cables can reach pretty far (9 squares I think) and anything longer than that would stretch the cable models by too much, and even with custom models, having insanely long cables just doesn't seem right. I also like the fact that you need to pay more if you want to take the cable further away. The relays being invulnerable doesn't feel too awkward, since all it means is that enemies will ignore them completely, just like they ignore the power cables.
I was going to try tinting the blueflame model, but the model is specified in some other field than Art: Model, and for some reason changing the actor's tint didn't tint the flame model at all. I'll look into it later since it's not too important for now.
More progress today!
I created Microfiltering research which gives Refineries an upgrade (that must be done separately for each Refinery) that increases the total amount of vespene refined from raw gas by 50%, and also the vespene storage capacity of the Refinery by 50% (so that it doesn't fill up any faster).
I removed a rock type from the game that was essentially just a copy of another rock, but looked different, had more health, and required the best mining tool to break in reasonable time. This was previously to limit the players from wandering too far from the start, but now it doesn't really matter if they do. It just added confusion.
Hatcheries now show up on radar from 25 squares away, but the system to find them doesn't feel good yet. They just show the tiny radar dot just like normal units do. I'm not sure how to make searching for them more interesting... Any ideas for that? I also need killing hatcheries mean something more than just slowing the enemies down by a bit, possibly rewarding the players with some research options or something. Just need to figure out what exactly.
The map is still very difficult to get into without anyone telling you what to do, so I'll probably need to rework the starting part a bit, even though I have a sort of a tutorial set up already. Stuff gets going way too quickly for players to have time to grasp everything. But once you get the hang of it, it gets really fun (at least for me and some others I've played with).
Alright. Nice work. If I was on EU, I would help test. However, The only way for me to help test would be for you to get someone to publish on NA (yes, I am volunteering)
Yep, the flame model isn't important at the moment.
I like this style of upgrades. Do you have to research the microfilteruing somehow, and then upgrade each of the refineries? Or how does that work?
As for hatcheries, Its hard to come up with logical rewards, (logical is important, because this game is highly designed to be realistic). Perhaps it could drop resources (call it creep, Lol) that let you start researching and creating semi-automatic units ('zergy' units ofc), that do some basic jobs (such as repair, resource gathering, combat) albiet less efficiently than the SCV. (although considering the loading system you use, not sure if that is viable, since they would be active in unloaded areas, hmm)
The Research Lab must first be built, and isn't exactly cheap. After that, you can start researching one of the available researches, which takes around 2-5 minutes based on the research, and also requires an amount of power during that time, which also depends on the research... so some researches are fast but require a lot of power (a lot of power generators), and some are slow but a bit less energy-consuming. The more energy that's being used, the more vespene gas is consumed. Getting those gas-preserving upgrades early can be very rewarding on the long run, which is why I made their costs quite high.
After a research is done, the researched thing must be applied separately to every structure or every unit it affects, which happens instantly by using an ability on that structure/unit, but costs resources. Some researches allow SCVs to craft tools that stay on them until they die. The tools are rather cheap, so losing them is just a little penalty for dying. Other researches enable structure upgrades, such as blueflames for turrets or microfiltering for refineries.
I can't add any more moving units for the players than one for each, and anything else that moves in fog of war can't be visible by the players, because of the way the rocks are spawned/despawned dynamically. Enemies move in darkness burrowed, so that pathing is not an issue for them.
One idea I had is that the zerg hatcheries are actually sitting on some protoss relics which the players then uncover by killing the hatcheries... Because protoss just has a lot more interesthing stuff that terran could use for this kind of tech, like the Warp Cargo ability. But still, nothing concrete yet.
well i don't know what the endgame is in the map but i would expect something that would facilitate that, for example:
if the endgame is destroy a much bigger zerg base then have it as parts of research to build the odin( with each piece upgrading your mechanised vehicles like basic would be goliath, piece 1 is spartan company, piece 2 thor, piece 3 colectors edition piece 4 something piece 5 odin),
if you wanted to say the players were a team of archaeologists then have each research fragment one of the artifact pieces that constituted levels of shield pieces and at the end of the map the artifact is rebuilt and extracted?
I'm trying out something but it still needs some work...
I made the goal of the game very simple, a bit like "survive this long" but instead made it display a percentage after your spacecraft is repaired on the surface of the moon and you can leave. It could've been pretty much anything that takes time, but a spacecraft sounded like it'd fit in. By destroying the zerg hatcheries, you gain zerg biomass which is (automatically for now) used to clone people and increase your "human resources" value, which in turn speeds up the victory progress (more people figuring out how to fix the ship).
The problem with this is that now destroying the hatcheries as soon as possible has become very crucial, because killing them accelerates your progress speed instead of just gives you a step in your progress. I still like this as an idea but I'd also like something to not make killing them always a top priority. Maybe something like "if you don't kill a hatchery before a timer runs out, the zerg gets stronger".
I figured out a fun way to make the players aware of where the hatcheries are: There are randomly spawning larvae on the map, whose only function is to get to a hatchery, and they do so by crawling through the rocks (and everything else too). They can't be killed or even targeted, and they are so small that they don't distract the gameplay in any way. If a player wants to find a hatchery, all they need to do is to spot a larva and go to the direction it's headed (I'll probably make them zigzag a bit later on).
Turns out the "victory timer" idea wasn't a very good one after all. I need something more concrete for the players to do to achieve victory instead of just surviving. The gameplay is about making progress, so winning should be as well.
is the command centre a pre-placed building or do players build it, because if its preplaced you could change it to a spaceship and use the archaeology idea if you wanted
also is this going to be available on EU anytime soon even in an uncompleted state?
Command Center is a constructable structure just like any other. Multiple Command Centers means shorter travel time to return cargo.
An idea for the end game is to have some ruined protoss structures lying around the map, which need to be repaired and powered up. The final goal could be gaining access to a waygate that's hidden somewhere in the map, and spend quite a bit of time and resources to get it operational.
I'm at least going to make the map "complete" so that it has a proper victory condition before a release, and make the learning curve at the beginning a bit easier. I can't say when that will be, but most likely at least a week or two more.
You mean the artifacts from singleplayer? Place them across the map, scattered far from each other, so that one of the last things the players need to do is to do a few long trips through the cave (after the artifacts have been pinpointed somehow).
I've been thinking of letting the players to create / repair an adjutant, but haven't figured out how they'd do it. It'd be a major thing, so it couldn't really be a choice between it and the other researches, for example. How about just have it as a timed event? It's being repaired in the Command Center the whole time, and at some point it just pops online and starts guiding the players in various ways (opening the entire minimap, pinpointing hatcheries, rare resource spawns, and the protoss ruins and artifacts towards the end). Or any better ideas for how it'd happen?
I'm thinking of reducing the number of resources that are used to build things down to 4 so that I could use the default resource system, which would be superior to my trigger based system. It'd mean I have to rework my entire resource system but I think it'll be worth it. It'd also make learning the game and keeping track of things during it easier, and more fun. I thought having a lot of different resources would be a must, but the gameplay turned out a lot more action based than I initially pictured.
Instead of having a lot of different rocks to mine, I should have more different kinds of objects you can find by mining. Like some kind of power-ups or "quest items" that provide you with something after turning in enough of them, and so on.
Progress, yay! The length of the map is reaching two hours and I'm probably going to let it.
So, I reverted the resource system to the default SC2 resource system and it's working perfectly. The only resources I have at the moment are minerals, vespene gas, paristeel, and vanadium.
Paristeel and minerals are gained by mining stuff (you mine iron ore, which is then instantly converted into paristeel at the command center).
Vanadium is created over time at the Forge by combining minerals and paristeel and using a bit of power.
Vespene gas is harvested with Refineries, and vespene is required by Power Generators to generate power. It's also consumed by Perdition Turrets when firing their flamethrowers.
Minerals are still a bit odd resource as it's in many ways very similar to paristeel (both are mined and both are used for creating vanadium), except that minerals aren't used as a main construction material like paristeel is. Minerals are used for some upgrades, tools, and such, but they probably still need some more uses, especially something that they can be "spammed" for.
I think I've solved the issue with players not wanting to use Power Relays to create long cables, as it previously was more reasonable to use turrets as line connectors since you'd need a turret to protect the line anyway. But now, you can only attach one cable to a turret. Makes sense in a way, and solves the problem pretty efficiently. Now you'll probably want to use Power Relays that are protected by turrets if you want to connect two bases with a power line.
Siege tanks are quite boring. They pretty much work like this: Park the tank in the middle of a small outpost, set it to siege mode, come out to do stuff. When enemies approach, enter siege tank, wait for it to fire, enemies die, come out and do stuff. The tank could be better if it was possible to increase sight range... but unfortunately it isn't. I either need to think of something that makes the tanks more unique, or just replace them with a more interesting vehicle. I'm not too worried about this since I haven't started making new types of enemies yet. I'll get the overall gameplay working first so that I'll actually have something to release.
I added adjutant back from the beginning so that I can use her voice announcements for things like "research complete" and "base is under attack". I'll instead just have a "repair adjutant's scanner" objective, possibly time-based... there are already lots of interesting things to do, so this could easily be simply something you have to wait for. After the scanner is finished, the adjutant starts pinging points of interest in the map, such as zerg hatcheries and later on the main goals you need to get to (otherwise you'd most likely not find them except with very good luck). As for the main objectives, I have some pretty neat ideas but I'll talk about those later.
Another video! The difficulty seems a bit too easy for singleplayer at the moment, and the map only gets really fun when there's a lot of pressure going on. Anyway, this should give you an idea of some (but not even close to all) of the improvements I've made!
if you are any good at combining models you could make a siege tanks deployed turret go on maybe a scaled down version of a civilian transport and have it as a "long ranged artillery" which your scv would call down suppresive fire from?
either that or make tanks an APC sorta thing where they are slow and need multiple people to be at max effectiveness
I have some ideas for more interesting vehicles than the siege tank. I probably won't even need to use it.
I decided to start posting progress updates on my blog, here: a1win.blogspot.com. Posting in this thread just feels like we're in some dark corner hidden from the general public... ^^
I'm still checking this thread but a blog seems like a better way to keep things nicely together.
I've been working on the map pretty much the whole time since the last post, and I've been updating my blog. I'm keeping logs of all the notable changes I make and occasionally posting some thoughts. Here are links to the articles I've posted so far:
I had it one-way previously but it was bad for consistency. I don't want the power grid to become any more complex than it needs to be, and it's working pretty nicely at the moment. All cables can reach pretty far (9 squares I think) and anything longer than that would stretch the cable models by too much, and even with custom models, having insanely long cables just doesn't seem right. I also like the fact that you need to pay more if you want to take the cable further away. The relays being invulnerable doesn't feel too awkward, since all it means is that enemies will ignore them completely, just like they ignore the power cables.
I was going to try tinting the blueflame model, but the model is specified in some other field than Art: Model, and for some reason changing the actor's tint didn't tint the flame model at all. I'll look into it later since it's not too important for now.
More progress today!
I created Microfiltering research which gives Refineries an upgrade (that must be done separately for each Refinery) that increases the total amount of vespene refined from raw gas by 50%, and also the vespene storage capacity of the Refinery by 50% (so that it doesn't fill up any faster).
I removed a rock type from the game that was essentially just a copy of another rock, but looked different, had more health, and required the best mining tool to break in reasonable time. This was previously to limit the players from wandering too far from the start, but now it doesn't really matter if they do. It just added confusion.
Hatcheries now show up on radar from 25 squares away, but the system to find them doesn't feel good yet. They just show the tiny radar dot just like normal units do. I'm not sure how to make searching for them more interesting... Any ideas for that? I also need killing hatcheries mean something more than just slowing the enemies down by a bit, possibly rewarding the players with some research options or something. Just need to figure out what exactly.
The map is still very difficult to get into without anyone telling you what to do, so I'll probably need to rework the starting part a bit, even though I have a sort of a tutorial set up already. Stuff gets going way too quickly for players to have time to grasp everything. But once you get the hang of it, it gets really fun (at least for me and some others I've played with).
Alright. Nice work. If I was on EU, I would help test. However, The only way for me to help test would be for you to get someone to publish on NA (yes, I am volunteering)
Yep, the flame model isn't important at the moment.
I like this style of upgrades. Do you have to research the microfilteruing somehow, and then upgrade each of the refineries? Or how does that work?
As for hatcheries, Its hard to come up with logical rewards, (logical is important, because this game is highly designed to be realistic). Perhaps it could drop resources (call it creep, Lol) that let you start researching and creating semi-automatic units ('zergy' units ofc), that do some basic jobs (such as repair, resource gathering, combat) albiet less efficiently than the SCV. (although considering the loading system you use, not sure if that is viable, since they would be active in unloaded areas, hmm)
The Research Lab must first be built, and isn't exactly cheap. After that, you can start researching one of the available researches, which takes around 2-5 minutes based on the research, and also requires an amount of power during that time, which also depends on the research... so some researches are fast but require a lot of power (a lot of power generators), and some are slow but a bit less energy-consuming. The more energy that's being used, the more vespene gas is consumed. Getting those gas-preserving upgrades early can be very rewarding on the long run, which is why I made their costs quite high.
After a research is done, the researched thing must be applied separately to every structure or every unit it affects, which happens instantly by using an ability on that structure/unit, but costs resources. Some researches allow SCVs to craft tools that stay on them until they die. The tools are rather cheap, so losing them is just a little penalty for dying. Other researches enable structure upgrades, such as blueflames for turrets or microfiltering for refineries.
I can't add any more moving units for the players than one for each, and anything else that moves in fog of war can't be visible by the players, because of the way the rocks are spawned/despawned dynamically. Enemies move in darkness burrowed, so that pathing is not an issue for them.
One idea I had is that the zerg hatcheries are actually sitting on some protoss relics which the players then uncover by killing the hatcheries... Because protoss just has a lot more interesthing stuff that terran could use for this kind of tech, like the Warp Cargo ability. But still, nothing concrete yet.
@A1win: Go
if your looking for a reason to go after the hatcheries why not make it so each hatchery guards an infested command centre that holds research?
What kind of research? that is what we are looking for.
@Ranakastrasz: Go
well i don't know what the endgame is in the map but i would expect something that would facilitate that, for example:
I'm trying out something but it still needs some work...
I made the goal of the game very simple, a bit like "survive this long" but instead made it display a percentage after your spacecraft is repaired on the surface of the moon and you can leave. It could've been pretty much anything that takes time, but a spacecraft sounded like it'd fit in. By destroying the zerg hatcheries, you gain zerg biomass which is (automatically for now) used to clone people and increase your "human resources" value, which in turn speeds up the victory progress (more people figuring out how to fix the ship).
The problem with this is that now destroying the hatcheries as soon as possible has become very crucial, because killing them accelerates your progress speed instead of just gives you a step in your progress. I still like this as an idea but I'd also like something to not make killing them always a top priority. Maybe something like "if you don't kill a hatchery before a timer runs out, the zerg gets stronger".
I figured out a fun way to make the players aware of where the hatcheries are: There are randomly spawning larvae on the map, whose only function is to get to a hatchery, and they do so by crawling through the rocks (and everything else too). They can't be killed or even targeted, and they are so small that they don't distract the gameplay in any way. If a player wants to find a hatchery, all they need to do is to spot a larva and go to the direction it's headed (I'll probably make them zigzag a bit later on).
Also, drivable siege tanks!
Turns out the "victory timer" idea wasn't a very good one after all. I need something more concrete for the players to do to achieve victory instead of just surviving. The gameplay is about making progress, so winning should be as well.
is the command centre a pre-placed building or do players build it, because if its preplaced you could change it to a spaceship and use the archaeology idea if you wanted
also is this going to be available on EU anytime soon even in an uncompleted state?
Command Center is a constructable structure just like any other. Multiple Command Centers means shorter travel time to return cargo.
An idea for the end game is to have some ruined protoss structures lying around the map, which need to be repaired and powered up. The final goal could be gaining access to a waygate that's hidden somewhere in the map, and spend quite a bit of time and resources to get it operational.
I'm at least going to make the map "complete" so that it has a proper victory condition before a release, and make the learning curve at the beginning a bit easier. I can't say when that will be, but most likely at least a week or two more.
@A1win: Go
if thats the endgame have the artifacts come together to create the waygate key?
You mean the artifacts from singleplayer? Place them across the map, scattered far from each other, so that one of the last things the players need to do is to do a few long trips through the cave (after the artifacts have been pinpointed somehow).
I've been thinking of letting the players to create / repair an adjutant, but haven't figured out how they'd do it. It'd be a major thing, so it couldn't really be a choice between it and the other researches, for example. How about just have it as a timed event? It's being repaired in the Command Center the whole time, and at some point it just pops online and starts guiding the players in various ways (opening the entire minimap, pinpointing hatcheries, rare resource spawns, and the protoss ruins and artifacts towards the end). Or any better ideas for how it'd happen?
@A1win: Go
have a triggered event where a BC crashes and you can if you defend it get an adjudant from it?
I'm thinking of reducing the number of resources that are used to build things down to 4 so that I could use the default resource system, which would be superior to my trigger based system. It'd mean I have to rework my entire resource system but I think it'll be worth it. It'd also make learning the game and keeping track of things during it easier, and more fun. I thought having a lot of different resources would be a must, but the gameplay turned out a lot more action based than I initially pictured.
Instead of having a lot of different rocks to mine, I should have more different kinds of objects you can find by mining. Like some kind of power-ups or "quest items" that provide you with something after turning in enough of them, and so on.
@A1win: Go
i think 4 resources would be a good number, ive seen maps with 8 and it just becomes confusing
Progress, yay! The length of the map is reaching two hours and I'm probably going to let it.
So, I reverted the resource system to the default SC2 resource system and it's working perfectly. The only resources I have at the moment are minerals, vespene gas, paristeel, and vanadium.
I think I've solved the issue with players not wanting to use Power Relays to create long cables, as it previously was more reasonable to use turrets as line connectors since you'd need a turret to protect the line anyway. But now, you can only attach one cable to a turret. Makes sense in a way, and solves the problem pretty efficiently. Now you'll probably want to use Power Relays that are protected by turrets if you want to connect two bases with a power line.
Siege tanks are quite boring. They pretty much work like this: Park the tank in the middle of a small outpost, set it to siege mode, come out to do stuff. When enemies approach, enter siege tank, wait for it to fire, enemies die, come out and do stuff. The tank could be better if it was possible to increase sight range... but unfortunately it isn't. I either need to think of something that makes the tanks more unique, or just replace them with a more interesting vehicle. I'm not too worried about this since I haven't started making new types of enemies yet. I'll get the overall gameplay working first so that I'll actually have something to release.
I added adjutant back from the beginning so that I can use her voice announcements for things like "research complete" and "base is under attack". I'll instead just have a "repair adjutant's scanner" objective, possibly time-based... there are already lots of interesting things to do, so this could easily be simply something you have to wait for. After the scanner is finished, the adjutant starts pinging points of interest in the map, such as zerg hatcheries and later on the main goals you need to get to (otherwise you'd most likely not find them except with very good luck). As for the main objectives, I have some pretty neat ideas but I'll talk about those later.
Another video! The difficulty seems a bit too easy for singleplayer at the moment, and the map only gets really fun when there's a lot of pressure going on. Anyway, this should give you an idea of some (but not even close to all) of the improvements I've made!
if you are any good at combining models you could make a siege tanks deployed turret go on maybe a scaled down version of a civilian transport and have it as a "long ranged artillery" which your scv would call down suppresive fire from?
either that or make tanks an APC sorta thing where they are slow and need multiple people to be at max effectiveness
I have some ideas for more interesting vehicles than the siege tank. I probably won't even need to use it.
I decided to start posting progress updates on my blog, here: a1win.blogspot.com. Posting in this thread just feels like we're in some dark corner hidden from the general public... ^^
I'm still checking this thread but a blog seems like a better way to keep things nicely together.
I've been working on the map pretty much the whole time since the last post, and I've been updating my blog. I'm keeping logs of all the notable changes I make and occasionally posting some thoughts. Here are links to the articles I've posted so far: