Hey hey people, welcome to yet another Bi-Weekly Testing Thread!
As per an initiative from JayBorino and me, we've set up the Bi-Weekly Testing Thread, or BWTT, with the purpose of testing specific maps made by community members. What does this mean? Simple: editors in need of feedback suggest their own maps (either via PM to me or JayBorino, or by posting it in the intro thread), and we'll pick one that will be used for the BWTT.
After some online play and some arcade-y style maps, Jay and I figured it was once again time for something to tide over those invested in story and singleplayer. And boy do we have a treat for you. Long-respected mapper Gradius12 has been creating a custom campaign titled 'Origins', which focuses on the Zerg as they grew on Zerus - long before the events of even StarCraft 1 transpired. There's a lot more to it than just that, but I'll just leave it at: it'll be awesome.
For the next two weeks, see if you can check out the maps and give your feedback in this thread. Find the campaign plus install instructions here.
This thread will stay up until tuesday, September 6, at which point I'll upload thread #11. Up until that point, all suggestions for maps that require testing are welcome - please put them in the general thread found here.
Just wanted to note that the 3 maps released so far are still in alpha state so just take that into consideration when leaving feedback.
Quote:
Origins is currently in the alpha state and is an experimental campaign due to its lack of human characters and focus on environmental challenges over that of AI. Many features are planned, but their inclusion and even status of the project is contingent on my time, resources and overall reception of the project.
I played these 3 maps back in Feb. when they were in pre-alpha and even though the maps were pretty bareboned, they had really interesting gameplay mechanics. I'm looking forward to seeing what's changed since then!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
The voice acting is really well done. Enough said there.
For the intro text before the briefing room, maybe add a 'Press Space to Continue' tip near the bottom that pops up after a certain amount of time.
There are no health bars on the Eels.
I would decrease the amount of health that the Eels have for the first few times that they pop up. Later on, they could gain more upgrades or something to make them stronger. I just feel like the first few times they pop up, the player doesn't have too much time to build up a strong enough force.
The Spire building has an icon showing that it is needed for Mutalisks.
Spawn Broodlings tooltip on Queens doesn't state how much energy it uses.
I really like the unit descriptions for the custom units. You definitely put some thought into this.
Quote:
I don't understand how this would make a difference, especially with my style of brutally honest feedback. Feedback can be very helpful no matter what state a game is in.
I just said to keep it in consideration, not to change your feedback because of it. I think it's a good idea to know what state the game is in before playing, but it won't necessarily effect your feedback.
The only objective that I would suggest changing is in the first part of the map: just make the objective clear that the player must kill all three enemies before going on the beacon.
I think it is pretty self-evident that you are not supposed to run into the giant fireballs or lava.
Quote:
Do I have to skip the opening cutscene and the first wall of text and sit through several moments of screen transitions after each death?
You can always quick-save right once the mission starts. So if you have to retry, you can start playing again without having to watch the cinematics again. This is pretty common in custom campaigns.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
Game could do it for me, or other maps/games, (with triggers pre-placing units again and resetting camera location instead of defeat screen at appropriately selected checkpoints).
Have you ever played a map/campaign that has effectively done this
Have you ever played a map/campaign that has effectively done this
Have you played many games at all ever that did this? The vast majority of AAA games make you reload on death. Think of it as punishment for sucking, which is on you, not the game developer.
I think SotX did great at having failsafes (OutsiderXE did this in his WC3 campaigns as well), but most of those are not traditional RTS-type maps. It's a lot different when adding something along the lines of a Resurrection Stone for a hero that dies, versus a checkpoint for an RTS macro map. I'm honestly not sure if it's possible to create force autosaves in usermade maps, but I assume no simply because no one has ever done it. With the complexity of map triggering, I think a checkpoint system (outside of forcing saves) is simply not feasible especially when you think about how difficult it is to simply skip cutscenes as you have to meticulously update all of the triggers.
No one is wrong to say that it's on the creator to try to do this, but it's definitely not something that can be realistically expected based on the amount of time it would take given the tools. I'm no mapmaker, though cost/benefit of this is to either spend dozens and dozens of hours to add a checkpoint system by resetting/moving triggers with very rigorous testing as this is pretty likely to break stuff VERSUS the player hitting Ctrl+Q once in a while. So, again, both sides of the argument are technically valid and I would really really like to see a solid answer on whether forcing autosaves is even possible, but I sympathize that the trigger work just to circumvent a lack of quicksaving would be crazy in most cases.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Visit my channel where I showcase custom content! Send me a PM or respond to my YouTube thread if you'd like to see your map/s on my channel (eventually!)
On the team antioch side, we havent found a way to autosave. And saving a complete state of the game so you dont have to press ctrl+q, well, while de do have a couple of maps that do this, its rather because the initial state is pretty simple. Many other, more complex maps dont have such a luxury.
Quote from JayborinoPlays:
I think SotX did great at having failsafes (OutsiderXE did this in his WC3 campaigns as well), but most of those are not traditional RTS-type maps. It's a lot different when adding something along the lines of a Resurrection Stone for a hero that dies...
----
SotX Mission 7 (the RTS map) was the hardest failsafe to create. The map starts empty and then I had to create each building and unit via trigger. But the most problematic thing is telling the AI to stop its current attack wave and the map is resetting to the last checkpoint at that time. Probably still bugged.
I would really love to see more maps have some sort of soft punishment instead of forcing the player to quicksave/quickload all the time. Gets really annoying when playing maps with a "Unit XXX Must Survive" objective. Belly of the Beast in WoL did a great job: Map doesn'T fail when a hero dies, he can be revived when others are around. Map only fails when all heroes die around the same time.
I have created one map where I used a "Press Ctr+Q to quicksave" message but it really felt like taking the player out of the experience. Instead I went for the Belly of the Beast solution (again).
General advice: If you can't build some sort of failsafe or soft punishment, at least add multiple difficulty levels. Also, having skippable cinematics is a must in this day and age (in my opinion). Especially in SC2 it's so much easier to do than in WC3.
Quote from EDHRIANO:
@JayborinoPlays: Go
Here you go Jay. [attachment]
----
Using that trigger produces a NotAuthorized error. Thanks Blizzard.
Making automatic checkpoints in a campaign can be a huge pain in the ass.
There aren't only units to be stored. There are orders, rally points, training queues, resources, behaviors, upgrades, missiles, alliances, unit and player properties, traceable booleans, actors, charges, inventories, time of day, UI status, etc. (and those are only the ones I can think of in a couple of minutes). Recovering them would involve lots of coding.
Still, finding the most optimal moments could reduce considerably the efforts as you say, but it's not always applicable and it doesn't necesary happens when the difficulty reaches peaks, where the checkpoints are needed. That would attempt against a consistent checkpoint system in a campaign.
Tested Map 2 last night on Hard. Gradius - your missions are long and tough!
I really enjoyed the first section of the mission where you just control the behemouth. The only thing I found that needs to be changed is the tooltip for its disabling cloud ability. The ability says that it prevents enemy units and structures from attacking while it actually decreases their attack speed.
There is definitely a performance drop in the 2nd half of the map, espcially when you send out the scourge waves. It wasn't a huge issue for me, but it may result in the map becoming unplayable for some. Just something to consider.
Those cloaked air attacks were a pain to deal with! You definitely need static defense to detect and deal with those things or just a bunch of overlords with speed.
I also think it would be neat to include a lore page on all of the units, buildings, etc. This could be on sc2mapster, another website, wherever. It would be nice to be able to read through all of the unit descriptions offline since you really don't have much time to do so in game as they are quite lengthy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
Fair enough. There seems to be alot more things to keep track of than I thought. I still would like to offer suggestions on how to handle checkpoints that barely requires much effort (which I think can still be possible).
I also agree with Jay where I don't want to ask devs for something overly unreasonable or excessively time consuming that the implementation isn't worth it. I just don't know exactly what goes into alot of maps.
What about a minimalistic checkpoint? For example would the map still work if only units and resources (or any other easy stuff) were restored? I don't mind if the checkpoint isn't perfect or is actually a disadvantage. It can still reward players for beating the game in 1-go or using saves if they prefer.
I just want anything to save me from what feels like a massive setback that's conveniently handled by the game. Even if I lose some upgrades, resources, and units I would much prefer that than starting from scratch. It would also be nice if I could still win or progress the game from that point, maybe it just takes a tiny bit more effort and time.
Honestly at that point I find ti preferable to just have a regular save. In a more RTS oriented map, as a player, having to keep track what was lost during the checkpoint restoration and how irreversible that might be (or even exploitable) depending oin how resources are restored, I would rather just reload to a point i am familiar with. Honestly, just reminding the player to press ctrl+q seems like a very acceptable tradeoff. I know you dont like sc2 load times and neither do i, but even many developers strugger with singleplayer rts macro save points.
Other types of maps with less things to take care off, probably more micro oriented, I would consider a full checkpoint perfectly acceptable.
I also think it would be neat to include a lore page on all of the units, buildings, etc. This could be on sc2mapster, another website, wherever. It would be nice to be able to read through all of the unit descriptions offline since you really don't have much time to do so in game as they are quite lengthy.
Havewnt played this, but thats where the tips help dialgo comes handy, as it pauses the game.
I would recommend just playing Shadow of the Xel'Naga then. No quicksaving needed and awesome campaign.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
The tooltip for the posion sacs seems to be missing a part of the description.
Terrain was definitely my favorite out of the first 3 maps.
Cutscenes and voice acting great as usual.
It would be cool to have a bonus objective. You could have a boss type enemy that if you kill you gain a resistance to the poison sacs. You would still get damaged by them but not as much.
When I played this map way back when, the poison sac mechanic was more annoying than anything. I really enjoyed the poison sac mechanic this time - I don't know if you increased the duration of the day/night cycles or I was just more prepared for them. I feel like you have enough time in between the poison sacs blowing their load that it's not annoying but they do enough damage that you have to pay attention and micro when needed.
It would be neat if you could adjust the lighting more drastically to distinguish between day and night.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
What I tried to say about manual saving/loading is that it can potentially create a mental burden on players which distracts or takes away from the gameplay experience. I should not under any circumstance be required to use manual save/loads or any extra effort to make sure the game is fun or engaging.
Trieva. Couple points.
1) I understand, my maps won't be accessible to the average gamer with little patience or attention span, but that's not my target audience. That's why on the project page I put that this is an experimental campaign due to its focus on environmental challenges over that of AI. Yes, most battle.net gamers aren't going to get into it. If I lose a player because he walked into lava and restarting is too much investment on his part, I'm cool with that.
2) Coding an entire reset as a safety net is great, sure. I actually did it in the first map of my last campaign, but don't have time to do it now. That's why I'm still asking for development help. I'm not even sure I'll be able to finish all the maps, so stuff like this gets sent lower on the priority list.
3) I feel like feedback should be limited to things I can actually fix. StarCraft 2 does not let the map maker create an auto save. Period. The save trigger that's in the editor is a Blizzard only function. I also wish that players couldn't disable tips so that I could get information across to them, but that's not possible either, and when I get more time I have to work on a different way to teach players. Recreating the entire tip system in the UI would be great and whoever wants to help me with that, step right on up. :P
4) Let's be real, complaining about having to restart after walking into lava is like throwing out Call of Duty after getting killed by your first sniper. Literally every FPS game I've played has thrown surprises at me where I have to restart at some point. It does suck that SC2 has obscene load times though.
5) You've still left good feedback and I've changed several things. Not having clear objectives for the first part of map 1 was definitely a huge mistake that I can't believe I somehow overlooked. I hope you take a look at the rest of the maps when the project is more polished, because obviously I'm still interested in seeing how a giant chunk of the battle.net audience will experience the map.
Quote:
(Blizz's coop vermillion problem does a better job of lava warning)
That's actually my least favorite co op map by far, and Vermillion is extremely annoying. My philosophy is that dialog should be used for story, not explaining gameplay. In an early version I had a warning sound for the lava rising, but Defiler told me to take it out because it was annoying, which I agree with. So it makes it harder to notice, but for this reason I made the enemy bases very easy to smash.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Custom Campaign Initiative
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hey hey people, welcome to yet another Bi-Weekly Testing Thread!
As per an initiative from JayBorino and me, we've set up the Bi-Weekly Testing Thread, or BWTT, with the purpose of testing specific maps made by community members. What does this mean? Simple: editors in need of feedback suggest their own maps (either via PM to me or JayBorino, or by posting it in the intro thread), and we'll pick one that will be used for the BWTT.
After some online play and some arcade-y style maps, Jay and I figured it was once again time for something to tide over those invested in story and singleplayer. And boy do we have a treat for you. Long-respected mapper Gradius12 has been creating a custom campaign titled 'Origins', which focuses on the Zerg as they grew on Zerus - long before the events of even StarCraft 1 transpired. There's a lot more to it than just that, but I'll just leave it at: it'll be awesome.
For the next two weeks, see if you can check out the maps and give your feedback in this thread. Find the campaign plus install instructions here.
This thread will stay up until tuesday, September 6, at which point I'll upload thread #11. Up until that point, all suggestions for maps that require testing are welcome - please put them in the general thread found here.
Good luck and have fun to all!
Just wanted to note that the 3 maps released so far are still in alpha state so just take that into consideration when leaving feedback.
I played these 3 maps back in Feb. when they were in pre-alpha and even though the maps were pretty bareboned, they had really interesting gameplay mechanics. I'm looking forward to seeing what's changed since then!
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
Just played Genesis on Hard.
I just said to keep it in consideration, not to change your feedback because of it. I think it's a good idea to know what state the game is in before playing, but it won't necessarily effect your feedback.
You can always quick-save right once the mission starts. So if you have to retry, you can start playing again without having to watch the cinematics again. This is pretty common in custom campaigns.
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
Have you ever played a map/campaign that has effectively done this
<Click Here> To See My Epic Single Player Campaign (LifeForceCampaign.com)
Have you played many games at all ever that did this? The vast majority of AAA games make you reload on death. Think of it as punishment for sucking, which is on you, not the game developer.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
I think SotX did great at having failsafes (OutsiderXE did this in his WC3 campaigns as well), but most of those are not traditional RTS-type maps. It's a lot different when adding something along the lines of a Resurrection Stone for a hero that dies, versus a checkpoint for an RTS macro map. I'm honestly not sure if it's possible to create force autosaves in usermade maps, but I assume no simply because no one has ever done it. With the complexity of map triggering, I think a checkpoint system (outside of forcing saves) is simply not feasible especially when you think about how difficult it is to simply skip cutscenes as you have to meticulously update all of the triggers.
No one is wrong to say that it's on the creator to try to do this, but it's definitely not something that can be realistically expected based on the amount of time it would take given the tools. I'm no mapmaker, though cost/benefit of this is to either spend dozens and dozens of hours to add a checkpoint system by resetting/moving triggers with very rigorous testing as this is pretty likely to break stuff VERSUS the player hitting Ctrl+Q once in a while. So, again, both sides of the argument are technically valid and I would really really like to see a solid answer on whether forcing autosaves is even possible, but I sympathize that the trigger work just to circumvent a lack of quicksaving would be crazy in most cases.
Visit my channel where I showcase custom content! Send me a PM or respond to my YouTube thread if you'd like to see your map/s on my channel (eventually!)
On the team antioch side, we havent found a way to autosave. And saving a complete state of the game so you dont have to press ctrl+q, well, while de do have a couple of maps that do this, its rather because the initial state is pretty simple. Many other, more complex maps dont have such a luxury.
Go play Antioch Chronicles Remastered!
Also, coming soon, Antioch Episode 3: Thoughts in Chaos!
Dont like mapster's ugly white? Try Mapster's Classic Skin!
I personally like the idea to be able to save and load a game when and where I want.
Like when I go to vegas and save just before I roll the dice, and load until I roll double snake eyes. Golden!
But joke aside auto save IMO killed it for me.
But hey, each to their own.
@JayborinoPlays: Go
Here you go Jay. [attachment]
My projects : The Hammer of Dawn, Noir : Automata, Noir : Evolution, Noir : Ascension, Hammer of Dawn Revamp
Many awesome projects : Custom Campaign Initiative
Something for the community : A Small Letter of Thanks, SC2mapster Classic Skin - Alevice
Quote from JayborinoPlays:
I think SotX did great at having failsafes (OutsiderXE did this in his WC3 campaigns as well), but most of those are not traditional RTS-type maps. It's a lot different when adding something along the lines of a Resurrection Stone for a hero that dies...
----
SotX Mission 7 (the RTS map) was the hardest failsafe to create. The map starts empty and then I had to create each building and unit via trigger. But the most problematic thing is telling the AI to stop its current attack wave and the map is resetting to the last checkpoint at that time. Probably still bugged.
I would really love to see more maps have some sort of soft punishment instead of forcing the player to quicksave/quickload all the time. Gets really annoying when playing maps with a "Unit XXX Must Survive" objective. Belly of the Beast in WoL did a great job: Map doesn'T fail when a hero dies, he can be revived when others are around. Map only fails when all heroes die around the same time.
I have created one map where I used a "Press Ctr+Q to quicksave" message but it really felt like taking the player out of the experience. Instead I went for the Belly of the Beast solution (again).
General advice: If you can't build some sort of failsafe or soft punishment, at least add multiple difficulty levels. Also, having skippable cinematics is a must in this day and age (in my opinion). Especially in SC2 it's so much easier to do than in WC3.
Quote from EDHRIANO:
@JayborinoPlays: Go
Here you go Jay. [attachment]
----
Using that trigger produces a NotAuthorized error. Thanks Blizzard.
Making automatic checkpoints in a campaign can be a huge pain in the ass.
There aren't only units to be stored. There are orders, rally points, training queues, resources, behaviors, upgrades, missiles, alliances, unit and player properties, traceable booleans, actors, charges, inventories, time of day, UI status, etc. (and those are only the ones I can think of in a couple of minutes). Recovering them would involve lots of coding.
Still, finding the most optimal moments could reduce considerably the efforts as you say, but it's not always applicable and it doesn't necesary happens when the difficulty reaches peaks, where the checkpoints are needed. That would attempt against a consistent checkpoint system in a campaign.
Check out my kitbashes! Custom Campaign Initiative: Lots of great Custom Campaigns!! Check out and Support!!
That's a neat idea. Clean and razonable.
Check out my kitbashes! Custom Campaign Initiative: Lots of great Custom Campaigns!! Check out and Support!!
I actually started recording Origins and mission 2 should be up some point today
Tested Map 2 last night on Hard. Gradius - your missions are long and tough!
I really enjoyed the first section of the mission where you just control the behemouth. The only thing I found that needs to be changed is the tooltip for its disabling cloud ability. The ability says that it prevents enemy units and structures from attacking while it actually decreases their attack speed.
There is definitely a performance drop in the 2nd half of the map, espcially when you send out the scourge waves. It wasn't a huge issue for me, but it may result in the map becoming unplayable for some. Just something to consider.
Those cloaked air attacks were a pain to deal with! You definitely need static defense to detect and deal with those things or just a bunch of overlords with speed.
I also think it would be neat to include a lore page on all of the units, buildings, etc. This could be on sc2mapster, another website, wherever. It would be nice to be able to read through all of the unit descriptions offline since you really don't have much time to do so in game as they are quite lengthy.
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
Honestly at that point I find ti preferable to just have a regular save. In a more RTS oriented map, as a player, having to keep track what was lost during the checkpoint restoration and how irreversible that might be (or even exploitable) depending oin how resources are restored, I would rather just reload to a point i am familiar with. Honestly, just reminding the player to press ctrl+q seems like a very acceptable tradeoff. I know you dont like sc2 load times and neither do i, but even many developers strugger with singleplayer rts macro save points.
Other types of maps with less things to take care off, probably more micro oriented, I would consider a full checkpoint perfectly acceptable.
Go play Antioch Chronicles Remastered!
Also, coming soon, Antioch Episode 3: Thoughts in Chaos!
Dont like mapster's ugly white? Try Mapster's Classic Skin!
Havewnt played this, but thats where the tips help dialgo comes handy, as it pauses the game.
Go play Antioch Chronicles Remastered!
Also, coming soon, Antioch Episode 3: Thoughts in Chaos!
Dont like mapster's ugly white? Try Mapster's Classic Skin!
@Trieva: Go
I would recommend just playing Shadow of the Xel'Naga then. No quicksaving needed and awesome campaign.
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
Tested the 3rd mission on Hard.
Check out my YouTube channel for test playthroughs of custom campaigns as well as editor tutorial videos. Mapmakers, don’t hesitate to PM me if you would like me to test your campaign.
Dear Lord get over it.
Go play Antioch Chronicles Remastered!
Also, coming soon, Antioch Episode 3: Thoughts in Chaos!
Dont like mapster's ugly white? Try Mapster's Classic Skin!
@Trieva: Go
I think you shouldn't play custom campaign maps, then. There's no reason to keep wasting space with save/load feedback.
Trieva. Couple points.
1) I understand, my maps won't be accessible to the average gamer with little patience or attention span, but that's not my target audience. That's why on the project page I put that this is an experimental campaign due to its focus on environmental challenges over that of AI. Yes, most battle.net gamers aren't going to get into it. If I lose a player because he walked into lava and restarting is too much investment on his part, I'm cool with that.
2) Coding an entire reset as a safety net is great, sure. I actually did it in the first map of my last campaign, but don't have time to do it now. That's why I'm still asking for development help. I'm not even sure I'll be able to finish all the maps, so stuff like this gets sent lower on the priority list.
3) I feel like feedback should be limited to things I can actually fix. StarCraft 2 does not let the map maker create an auto save. Period. The save trigger that's in the editor is a Blizzard only function. I also wish that players couldn't disable tips so that I could get information across to them, but that's not possible either, and when I get more time I have to work on a different way to teach players. Recreating the entire tip system in the UI would be great and whoever wants to help me with that, step right on up. :P
4) Let's be real, complaining about having to restart after walking into lava is like throwing out Call of Duty after getting killed by your first sniper. Literally every FPS game I've played has thrown surprises at me where I have to restart at some point. It does suck that SC2 has obscene load times though.
5) You've still left good feedback and I've changed several things. Not having clear objectives for the first part of map 1 was definitely a huge mistake that I can't believe I somehow overlooked. I hope you take a look at the rest of the maps when the project is more polished, because obviously I'm still interested in seeing how a giant chunk of the battle.net audience will experience the map.
That's actually my least favorite co op map by far, and Vermillion is extremely annoying. My philosophy is that dialog should be used for story, not explaining gameplay. In an early version I had a warning sound for the lava rising, but Defiler told me to take it out because it was annoying, which I agree with. So it makes it harder to notice, but for this reason I made the enemy bases very easy to smash.