Suicide SCVs could be useful in lategame when you have 10+CCs and aren't building workers anyway, but Marines would probably do any job better unless the S-SCVs are alpha-widowmine style anti-armor units. Lorewise we all know that ANY manmade device in science fiction has a Big Red Button or a volatile reactor. And yes, I'm playing devil's advocate here, by now I HATE suicide units for what they have done to HotS.
When you say you lack a "functional mechanic" for drop pods, do you mean balance/strategic merit, ease of use or actually coding the effects?
Probably a bit off-topic, but what is the status of the "Hybrid" race in the mod files? A work in progress? An abandoned project?
@Photoloss: Go That's ok, we are all brainstorming ideas here, feel free to discuss any of them and try to find solutions, game roles, whatever they need. Of course it would be FUN to have Suicidal Construction Vehicles, but they would also need a clear role, and a possible tech tree for them.
I mean I dont know exactly how to implement them. Right now for Terran Drop Pod I think it could be a unit made from the Factory. You load your units into it then target a location. It skyrockets then land where you targetred it (revealed points of the map only). But would they get any real use? Would you pay the resources for a one-time transport unit? Aren't Medivacs or Hercules a better investment?
For the Zerg drop pod I wanted a new structure, to produce them, so they could be launched the same way Terran Drop Pod is, but I'm not sure about it. Isn't Nydus a better option? Lore-wise it would fit air-focused broods better than nydus, but gameplay-wise I'm not sure its a good option.
The Hybrid race is an abandoned project right now. I started it back in the early days of this mod, when I didn't have all those factions, broods and tribes. My first idea was to make a few extra 'races' that would include the Colonists and Hybrids, then I realized I had much more avaiable and not enough for only these groups, so I decided that smaller changes to existing tech trees was a better idea for the mod.
playing against very hard ai on cloud kingdom i set up a rip field generator in his natural and left my army elsewhere. my probe got stuck and i could not target the rip field generators with my cannons, probe or army. perhaps i was clicking in the wrong spot, in which case that space needs to be bigger.
the drones of the computer were regenerating all damage because they left the field long enough to be mining. i added a second generator to actually kill them and i must say regardless of how i won that game the rip field generators are not strong enough to see use (against zerg) in this fashion.
shrike turret rushes are stupid and shouldn't work, no fix needed, just saying PF rushes work better.
colonists overkill units. please fix that though. errr. raiders specifically.
Your Terran drop pod sounds like what you've already done with the Hercules ("low-orbit fight"?). It would still be worthwhile as long as the pod can't be shot down mid-flight. Not having a global alert would also help a lot. I imagine it would mainly be used for harassment, dropping suicide squads of Marines/Hellions if the enemy has air superiority. Might be OP for that very reason. The existing drop pod doesn't have a mobile form, so "using up" the caster would require some fancy workaround. I do agree with Factory tech though, Medivacs have so much synergy with bio they would be preferred almost all the time.
Zerg pods could be launched by the Spore Cannon, which really doesn't look suitable for shooting directly at units. Make them spawn Creep Tumors, possibly create new units instead of dropping existing ones, and place a temporary AoE at the impact location. (armor reduction, slow, DoT, silence etc.) Spawned units should have high HP but low dps so you use the drop pods for direct combat initiation and the Nydus for overall mobility, multi-pronged attacks and killing people who don't secure their main base.
terran infested suide SCV just like sc1 along with its tech path (mabey new overseer abilty, infestation)
starcraft diamondbacks don't get the armour and attack upgrades. also i feel beacuse of there lower stats and that its the meat of a faction they should be able to target air
rip field still can not be targeted by enemy units (you can select them, i think, from dragging left to right)
as for drop pods, what about as it was used in the campain? able to spawn in a second anywhere on the map. kind of like warping in units
for the scientist unit, should there time ability effect ranged attacks speed?
@CactusMeat: Go Rip-Field generators were OP before, specially vs zerg, because most units didn't live long enough to kill it. And it was not the original purpose. Rip-Field Generators were included to be a territory control structure, not a harass structure. So I changed them, they don't kill units, you have cannons for that. Rip-Field Generators deal low damage over time and negate life and shield regeneration for all enemy units within the field, and I'm considering the ability to negate external healing too. So when you place one you're telling your enemy: Don't come this way or we will fight within the Generator's field and I'll have an advantage.
Shrike Turrets were included because it was very easy. Player reports are mixed about them. Some like it because you can protect your base with no supply cost. Others dislike it because the extra space used by units brings more DPS to bunkers. As long as it isn't op I can leave the option there for players to use.
I'll see what I can do about the overkill, I'm sure sure how I'd go about fixing it.
@Photoloss: Go Yeah, I know, Low-Orbit Flight was added because I felt a huge transport unit wasn't as useful as BCs, but maybe that was a bad choice. That's the kind of ability you would use Drop-Pods for. I may remove it if I add Drop Pods. Good to see you agree with my ideas for it. Which faction should have it? Raynor's Raiders?
I don't like the idea of spawning new units, instead of loading existing units. This way the Drop pod could as well be used as a last-moment back up for defenses, what do you think? I know my original idea made it too similar to Terran Drops, and I want to give it something new.
@FreezingAcidRain: Go What do you mean by "just like SC1"? Which tech path?
Thanks, I'll fix the upgrades and consider the ability to attack air.
The targeting issue was probably created by the custom model, I'll se what I can do about it.
It was like in the campaign for a while, but it prooved to be too strong, as there was nothing limiting this ability, unlike warping units in pylon fields only. Players could keep droping units in your mineral line and there was nothing you could do.
That ability is a "placeholder" as I'd like to overhaul the Scientist unit, but I haven given it much attention so far. I'm open to new ideas as the unit isn't a good replacement to Ghosts.
Scourge are missing? Vipers are being worked on i assume.
Lurkers with cliffwalk would be interesting...T3 harassment however is quite silly.
I haven't tried it out but do spec ops drop ships cloak? they probably should.
Moebius faction should get tech reactors (after armory?)
if you choose to make a hybrid terran group they should gain access to pygalisks.
Scouts could be buffed and placed into only Tal'Darim and Dealaam factions if they see little use in the future.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Scout says those are the groups that still use them.
also i'm glad you're so actively updating this mod.
got a bug when attacking carrierrs, sentries and stalkers only. gave the location and name of the units and said something about their attacking, but the carrier still died. perhaps that +2 shield upgrade was the issue?
Thanks to you guys I got excited about the Drop Pod again, so yesterday I started working on it and today I finished tweaking and polishing it. It works as it should, and I hope you guys like it. We only have to decide which faction will have access to it. To make the decision meaningful I decided to share some info and considerations:
LORE: With WoL campaign we have seen Drop Pods everywhere. They are used to calldown MULEs, mercenaries, escape from Battlecruisers (you probably watched HoTS teasers by now). And from the Nova book I can say they are used for insertion, when using regular transports is too dangerous or too obvious to your enemies. So the uses for Drop Pods are many, and most, if not all of them, come from the need to avoid standard transport or to move quickly into the atmosphere and land.
DROP-POD vs MEDIVAC: Now about the game mechanics. Why add Drop-Pods? Are they useful in game? Terrans already have Medivacs and they are very useful. They can heal biological units, they can move around and when they unload units they can also load them again and bring them home. So is there any situation you don't or can't use them? I came with the following: Ghost insertions, instant backups and suicidal drops, specially if the target spot is guarder by anti-air turrets and units. When a Terran player plans a drop on the enemy mineral line he can face 2 options: be successful and have medivacs healing his troops, or find a wall of turrets and be unable to drop. In this case he could have used Drop-Pods for a suicidal drop. In case he's pushing against his enemy and he may be about to fail he may need backup, but unlike proxy pylons and nydus worms a Terran player has no option to get that backup in time, so this is one case Drop-Pods would be useful. And one strategy I'd like to see being used is Ghost Insertion. Moving a Medivac through enemy territory to drop a sneaky Ghost doesn't make much sense. It may be found and sniped. It's unnecessarily dangerous and doesn't give the feel of a covert mission. And this is how I get into the next topic:
DROP-POD vs SPEC-OPS DROPSHIP: Now that I have considered the Medivac for the first 2 situations I have to consider Ghost Insertion, but I already have a unit for that. Taking the time to analyse the Spec-Ops I see it shares some of the limitations the Medivac has, like facing a wall of turrets. It is harder to find and snipe, but on the other hand it won't be able to heal when the units are dropped. The unit is interesting, but does it have what it takes to be a covert transport? Here I leave it for discussion. What do you guys think? If you're planning nukeing a base, cloaked harass with Ghosts or Spectres, which one would you use? And why? What about the other situations?
@CactusMeat: Go Scourge are unlocked by a brood. I have all the data for Vipers, but I dont have a good model.
Right now the Lurker isn't T3, as Lurker Den doesn't require a Hive.
Sepc-Ops can cloak with the Banshee research, but it has been sugested that they should cloak from start, see the discussion above.
Tech Reactors are a problem, I believe it wouldn't be possible to balance them.
Pygalisks have been suggested before. I wouldn't add them to a Terran faction. Terrans already have so many changes while Zerg broods need more stuff, so adding a Zerg unit to Terran tech tree is a no. I even have problems with the Infested faction right now.
My plan for Scouts it that it would replace Void Rays for Tal-Darim and Akilae, possibly a few others as well, but I'm not sure about it. I fear we may end having totally different air units for Khalai and Nerazim tribes if we go down this road. Specially after HoTS (which unit would replace Oracles?).
And I'm so glad you guys show up to help me work on it. Without all the feedback and bug reports the mod would never be where it stands right now.
I'll check that error message, can you try to replicate it? Attack Carriers before and after the upgrade?
Your statement on Zerg drop pods seems contradictory: Summoning an extra wave of units, even if they deal jack-all dps, would be more useful in defense as you could block off chokepoints or provide temporary meatshields for regular units. Plus you'd realistically be committing all available troops and production facilities to defending anyway, so you wouldn't have anything left to drop. Considering Nydus and all the existing mob spawners I intended the spawned units to be more of a strategic "environmental effect" like forcefields/entomb, not another generic hurr-durr 1a army supplement.
I don't think Ghost drops are feasible, if you want something dead you just throw in some Marines/Hellions. Nuke drops are high cost, high risk, average return (absolute best case you kill 20 Probes and 3-4 Pylons, but if your opponent is that careless you could just go Banshee). It would still be a fun option, especially in the lategame if you nuke 2-3 bases simultaneously, but I doubt it would see much use. I wouldn't see that as a flaw in the drop pod design though.
On the other hand I think drop pods could be used to help compensate the immobility of mech armies. While not as fitting with regards to the lore, gearing drop pods towards mech would also eliminate competition with the Medivac.
Tech Reactors could be balanced for factions that lose a lot of vanilla units (e.g. Colonists), as their main impact is on the cost of tech switches and massing Techlab units, though I don't know whether your plan for Moebius fits that bill.
i think having all three would be good, since there are situations where the drop-pod or the medivac can be better, and since the spec ops drop ship can cloak, your opponent can't see it on the minimap unless they have detection. I'd agree with having cloak come with the spec ops drop ship, no research required.
@Photoloss: Go Ok, we can get back to zerg drop pods later, as I think I wont be able to work on them anytime soon.
Too bad nukeing an enemy base isn't that useful, it should be. I agree Drop Pods may the more use with mech, even though that's weird. I made it so it can't carry a Thor (only 6 slots). I think it would be op to have more slots in the case of early harass moves.
Yeah but how would colonists have access to tech reactors when the military factions don't? Moebius at least studies advanced technology so lore-wise it would fit, but then again they have access to units we d0on't want to see "reactored".
@morgoth780: Go Ok, I'll change it so Spec-Ops gets cloak by default in the next update.
I updated the map here on Mapster. Use this version for test purposes, as I want to chenge it again before uploading it to NA servers. Here's the list of changes:
Train time fixed for Hunter Killers and Kukulzas.
Targeting fixed for Science Vessel's Defensive Matrix and Lockdown.
Left 2 Die brood added. It unlocks Hunterlings, Spotters and Stanks. Kaboomers moved to this brood.
Wraith cost reduced to 150/100 anti-air weapon range increased to 6.
Defiler selection priority increased to be the same as the Infestor. Plague hotkey changed to F.
Reavers can now damage friendly targeted units.
Warp Gate cooldown fiixed for Preservers.
Diamondbacks will benefit from weapon upgrades.
Phoenix's Graviton Beam no longer affects heroic units.
Drop-Pods added to the Factory.
I am able to play on the NA servers, it takes a long time but 1vs1 manageable. I would like to see the ohana map and maybe more 2vs2 maps where 1vs1 is manageable and would it be possible when in the arcade to display the actual maps? Its tedious to look up the name to know what the map look likes for unfamiliar names.
hunterlings cost to much for health of only 80. leap is not autocastable. also, as they "fly" they seem to move a bit slow and be able to be killed in mid flight. also what was unique to the hunterling was its abilty to stun its target, hence the hunterling. also hunterlings make that ( global?) sound, anyway of muting it?
the L2D overseer (spotter); you can make as many as you want, there is no cap and it can attack (the no cap with the attack is problem)
Reavers still can't damage friendly units, well they can target and kill friendly units but does not do splash damage to friendly units
drop pods; it seems gliched when trying to call down more then 1 at the same time where only one will come down after commanding them all to come down.
wriaths ground attack, beacuse its slow and does not do a lot of damage perhaps at range 6 or 7 so if its with ground units its not the first unit to be taken out at the front.
you could say Kukulzas are done, it just missing that minor attacking motion when it fires its missle.
valkeries still seem op, if you got 6 you can easily snipe capital ships and it does splash, that how powerfull they are at the moment.
before you mentioned about tech paths for zergling "leap charge" and how the rapters fit in. tech path would be lair and raptors could fit as the roll of the reaper and have the abilty to stun units.
I never suggested giving Techreactors to the Colonists, I merely listed them as having a sufficiently different tech tree to avoid balance issues vanilla Terran would have. For Moebius I wasn't sure whether you intended to keep them as they are or switch them to a full scientist/mutant/robot/prototype army in the distant future. I don't want to see any faction with Marauders and Techreactors before Fusion Core though.
@FirebatRommel: Go Welcome to Mapster and thanks for taking the time to share your ideas. I like the idea of a resource-leeching unit, it fits the zerg more than the Oracle's current ability to damage structures and earn minerals (if you know the current state of the beta you know what I mean). I also like the idea of disabling pylons, but it may be op. You gave me the idea for other possible abilities to be disabled: Creep, radar from Sensor Towers, Detection from turrets, disruption from Psi-Disrupters and so on.
For the fragile harassment unit: Left 2 Die brood will unlock Hunterlings (wait for the next update), but I like the poison idea, it's so obvious and still no zerg unit uses poison. The other idea sounds like the bane creeper.
Thank you SoulFlicher :D sorry for the late reply.
I would just make it a resource-leeching unit with some abilities to hinder or support other Zerg units, I am agreeing with you. I think the idea of disabling pylons is op but I do like the idea of it able to disable radar from Sensor Towers, Detection from turrets, Disruption from Psi-Disrupters like you thought up. For some of the other abilities it could have, why not allow it to spew corruption on a structure and disables its researching/upgrading/training and turns it into a turret for a short-time. This ability would be a could distraction to set up its resource-leeching, for the corrupted structures attack in this state. I imagine acting like a "wasp's nest" in a sense. Like it spawns weak flying melee or ranged units (up to discussion) that orbit it like a swarm of wasps or bees and attack enemies that come near the corrupted structure, I don't seem them able to attack structures only air and ground units. As for a model for the unit you could use GhostNova91's Bone Wasp Model for them :3 if not as a ability for this unit, maybe you could use this idea as a advanced Zerg defense structure.
That is exactly what I was thinking the Bane Creeper, but was thinking it instead deals poison damage passively. Not causing them to explode, instead its poison could have some type debilating effect to it. Maybe reduce armor against armored ground units, could be a good counter for Terrans and Protoss armor. This route instead of being a fragile harassment unit, it could become a sturdy anti-armor unit. As for the Model you could use GhostNova91's Scantilisk or Scorpalisk models ;) To make it sturdy you could make it have good armor and slow speed.
Whilst Playing today, I noticed a bug with upgrading the Mothership Core to the Mothership. The upgrade icon displays only the time to upgrade, but not the mineral/vespene cost.
I also would like to add that the shield battery is a pretty cool idea for the Protoss. If it could heal buildings that would be...interesting, but its current iteration it is still vastly useful. I also appreciate the option of the autocast feature.
In regards to drop pod tech, I would say it would solely be the sort of thing for tactical suicide drops. Not sure which faction that sits with.. maybe multiple? I don't play Terran a lot so I'm not sure. I also endorse Zerg Drops pods!
Sorry for the lack of feedback lately, I haven't been able to do much gaming lately. But seeing as how HoTS has so many new units, the Zerg Evos and new terran units will provide an enhanced brood experience. For example there is an entire set of units with the "Mengsk" prefix, my assumption is that they will be something of an honor-guard, perhaps a faction that gets only the Honor-Guard units? More expensive but increased in strength?
List of "Mengsk" Units:
Mengsk Battlecruiser
Mengsk Banshee
Mengsk Diamondback
Mengsk Firebat
Mengsk Goliath
Mengsk Hellion
Mengsk Marauder
Mengsk Marine
Mengsk Medic
Mengsk Merc Compound (Merc Calldown Center)
Mengsk Reaper
Mengsk Siege Tank
Mengsk Viking
Mengsk Wraith
Note the lack of: SCV, Medivac, Ghost, and Raven. They have no caster units.
I also noticed "Battlecruiser Interceptor" Perhaps the Mobius foundation could use them as prototypes?
There is also a "Dark Protoss Turret" And some structures with "Hybrid" prefix:
Hybrid Cannon
Hybrid Temple Obelisk
Hybrid Obelisk
Hybrid Holding Cell
Hybrid Generator
As for neutral structures there is a "Xel'Naga Healing Shrine"
For the Colonists faction we get some juicy new units:
Militarized Colonist Ship (Flying and Landing)
Militarized Colonist Ship Omega (Flying and Landing)
Pirate Worker
Pirate Capital Ship
You can comb over these and experiment with them as you like.
Sorry for the dealy guys, but work is work. I may be too busy to update the mod for the next 2 or even 3 weeks but I'll try. I wont answer everything as detalied as usual but some points are important.
@FreezingAcidRain: Go All reports and suggestions written down so I can work on them later. Should Reavers actually deal splash damage to friendly units? I wasn't sure when I added the unit so I removed it. I don't remember if it was the case in SC1. Drop-pods can only be launched when they have at least 1 unit inside them, are you sure all your pods were loaded? If they were I will take a look. Your suggestions for the Raptor make it strongly overlap with the Hunterling.
@CactusMeat: Go All bugs and suggestions written down so I can take a look later.
@FirebatRommel: Go I'm only adding custom models for Starcraft lore-based units, otherwise the file size would be huge. Any suggestions for units that don't exist in SC lore must use in-game models and textures. Don't worry, HoTS will unlock a huge list of new models to use, so these ideas may be finished without the need of custom models.
@Regretredress: Go The tooltip bug is caused by the game, lots of buttons lack resource information. I reported this bug to blizzard but nobody answered. Shield Battery is from SC1, not an original idea. I probably wont add the ability to recover structures because it could make cannon rushes even more powerful.
@rickmary: Go Yes, I've seen those list and I'm very excited. Those "primal zerg" seem to me a whole new brood right there for me to include in the mod :-)
Hi guys, we have 2 maps avaiable on EU now, Cloud Kingdom and Megaton, thanks to PlayPrey. We are working on some weird bugs that prevent us from publishing a few others. The version on EU is the same as the one here on mapster.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Suicide SCVs could be useful in lategame when you have 10+CCs and aren't building workers anyway, but Marines would probably do any job better unless the S-SCVs are alpha-widowmine style anti-armor units. Lorewise we all know that ANY manmade device in science fiction has a Big Red Button or a volatile reactor. And yes, I'm playing devil's advocate here, by now I HATE suicide units for what they have done to HotS.
When you say you lack a "functional mechanic" for drop pods, do you mean balance/strategic merit, ease of use or actually coding the effects?
Probably a bit off-topic, but what is the status of the "Hybrid" race in the mod files? A work in progress? An abandoned project?
@Photoloss: Go That's ok, we are all brainstorming ideas here, feel free to discuss any of them and try to find solutions, game roles, whatever they need. Of course it would be FUN to have Suicidal Construction Vehicles, but they would also need a clear role, and a possible tech tree for them.
I mean I dont know exactly how to implement them. Right now for Terran Drop Pod I think it could be a unit made from the Factory. You load your units into it then target a location. It skyrockets then land where you targetred it (revealed points of the map only). But would they get any real use? Would you pay the resources for a one-time transport unit? Aren't Medivacs or Hercules a better investment?
For the Zerg drop pod I wanted a new structure, to produce them, so they could be launched the same way Terran Drop Pod is, but I'm not sure about it. Isn't Nydus a better option? Lore-wise it would fit air-focused broods better than nydus, but gameplay-wise I'm not sure its a good option.
The Hybrid race is an abandoned project right now. I started it back in the early days of this mod, when I didn't have all those factions, broods and tribes. My first idea was to make a few extra 'races' that would include the Colonists and Hybrids, then I realized I had much more avaiable and not enough for only these groups, so I decided that smaller changes to existing tech trees was a better idea for the mod.
playing against very hard ai on cloud kingdom i set up a rip field generator in his natural and left my army elsewhere. my probe got stuck and i could not target the rip field generators with my cannons, probe or army. perhaps i was clicking in the wrong spot, in which case that space needs to be bigger.
the drones of the computer were regenerating all damage because they left the field long enough to be mining. i added a second generator to actually kill them and i must say regardless of how i won that game the rip field generators are not strong enough to see use (against zerg) in this fashion.
shrike turret rushes are stupid and shouldn't work, no fix needed, just saying PF rushes work better.
colonists overkill units. please fix that though. errr. raiders specifically.
Your Terran drop pod sounds like what you've already done with the Hercules ("low-orbit fight"?). It would still be worthwhile as long as the pod can't be shot down mid-flight. Not having a global alert would also help a lot. I imagine it would mainly be used for harassment, dropping suicide squads of Marines/Hellions if the enemy has air superiority. Might be OP for that very reason. The existing drop pod doesn't have a mobile form, so "using up" the caster would require some fancy workaround. I do agree with Factory tech though, Medivacs have so much synergy with bio they would be preferred almost all the time.
Zerg pods could be launched by the Spore Cannon, which really doesn't look suitable for shooting directly at units. Make them spawn Creep Tumors, possibly create new units instead of dropping existing ones, and place a temporary AoE at the impact location. (armor reduction, slow, DoT, silence etc.) Spawned units should have high HP but low dps so you use the drop pods for direct combat initiation and the Nydus for overall mobility, multi-pronged attacks and killing people who don't secure their main base.
@CactusMeat: Go Rip-Field generators were OP before, specially vs zerg, because most units didn't live long enough to kill it. And it was not the original purpose. Rip-Field Generators were included to be a territory control structure, not a harass structure. So I changed them, they don't kill units, you have cannons for that. Rip-Field Generators deal low damage over time and negate life and shield regeneration for all enemy units within the field, and I'm considering the ability to negate external healing too. So when you place one you're telling your enemy: Don't come this way or we will fight within the Generator's field and I'll have an advantage.
Shrike Turrets were included because it was very easy. Player reports are mixed about them. Some like it because you can protect your base with no supply cost. Others dislike it because the extra space used by units brings more DPS to bunkers. As long as it isn't op I can leave the option there for players to use.
I'll see what I can do about the overkill, I'm sure sure how I'd go about fixing it.
@Photoloss: Go Yeah, I know, Low-Orbit Flight was added because I felt a huge transport unit wasn't as useful as BCs, but maybe that was a bad choice. That's the kind of ability you would use Drop-Pods for. I may remove it if I add Drop Pods. Good to see you agree with my ideas for it. Which faction should have it? Raynor's Raiders?
I don't like the idea of spawning new units, instead of loading existing units. This way the Drop pod could as well be used as a last-moment back up for defenses, what do you think? I know my original idea made it too similar to Terran Drops, and I want to give it something new.
@FreezingAcidRain: Go What do you mean by "just like SC1"? Which tech path?
Thanks, I'll fix the upgrades and consider the ability to attack air.
The targeting issue was probably created by the custom model, I'll se what I can do about it.
It was like in the campaign for a while, but it prooved to be too strong, as there was nothing limiting this ability, unlike warping units in pylon fields only. Players could keep droping units in your mineral line and there was nothing you could do.
That ability is a "placeholder" as I'd like to overhaul the Scientist unit, but I haven given it much attention so far. I'm open to new ideas as the unit isn't a good replacement to Ghosts.
Scourge are missing? Vipers are being worked on i assume.
Lurkers with cliffwalk would be interesting...T3 harassment however is quite silly.
I haven't tried it out but do spec ops drop ships cloak? they probably should.
Moebius faction should get tech reactors (after armory?)
if you choose to make a hybrid terran group they should gain access to pygalisks.
Scouts could be buffed and placed into only Tal'Darim and Dealaam factions if they see little use in the future. http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Scout says those are the groups that still use them.
also i'm glad you're so actively updating this mod.
got a bug when attacking carrierrs, sentries and stalkers only. gave the location and name of the units and said something about their attacking, but the carrier still died. perhaps that +2 shield upgrade was the issue?
Thanks to you guys I got excited about the Drop Pod again, so yesterday I started working on it and today I finished tweaking and polishing it. It works as it should, and I hope you guys like it. We only have to decide which faction will have access to it. To make the decision meaningful I decided to share some info and considerations:
LORE: With WoL campaign we have seen Drop Pods everywhere. They are used to calldown MULEs, mercenaries, escape from Battlecruisers (you probably watched HoTS teasers by now). And from the Nova book I can say they are used for insertion, when using regular transports is too dangerous or too obvious to your enemies. So the uses for Drop Pods are many, and most, if not all of them, come from the need to avoid standard transport or to move quickly into the atmosphere and land.
DROP-POD vs MEDIVAC: Now about the game mechanics. Why add Drop-Pods? Are they useful in game? Terrans already have Medivacs and they are very useful. They can heal biological units, they can move around and when they unload units they can also load them again and bring them home. So is there any situation you don't or can't use them? I came with the following: Ghost insertions, instant backups and suicidal drops, specially if the target spot is guarder by anti-air turrets and units. When a Terran player plans a drop on the enemy mineral line he can face 2 options: be successful and have medivacs healing his troops, or find a wall of turrets and be unable to drop. In this case he could have used Drop-Pods for a suicidal drop. In case he's pushing against his enemy and he may be about to fail he may need backup, but unlike proxy pylons and nydus worms a Terran player has no option to get that backup in time, so this is one case Drop-Pods would be useful. And one strategy I'd like to see being used is Ghost Insertion. Moving a Medivac through enemy territory to drop a sneaky Ghost doesn't make much sense. It may be found and sniped. It's unnecessarily dangerous and doesn't give the feel of a covert mission. And this is how I get into the next topic:
DROP-POD vs SPEC-OPS DROPSHIP: Now that I have considered the Medivac for the first 2 situations I have to consider Ghost Insertion, but I already have a unit for that. Taking the time to analyse the Spec-Ops I see it shares some of the limitations the Medivac has, like facing a wall of turrets. It is harder to find and snipe, but on the other hand it won't be able to heal when the units are dropped. The unit is interesting, but does it have what it takes to be a covert transport? Here I leave it for discussion. What do you guys think? If you're planning nukeing a base, cloaked harass with Ghosts or Spectres, which one would you use? And why? What about the other situations?
@CactusMeat: Go Scourge are unlocked by a brood. I have all the data for Vipers, but I dont have a good model.
Right now the Lurker isn't T3, as Lurker Den doesn't require a Hive.
Sepc-Ops can cloak with the Banshee research, but it has been sugested that they should cloak from start, see the discussion above.
Tech Reactors are a problem, I believe it wouldn't be possible to balance them.
Pygalisks have been suggested before. I wouldn't add them to a Terran faction. Terrans already have so many changes while Zerg broods need more stuff, so adding a Zerg unit to Terran tech tree is a no. I even have problems with the Infested faction right now.
My plan for Scouts it that it would replace Void Rays for Tal-Darim and Akilae, possibly a few others as well, but I'm not sure about it. I fear we may end having totally different air units for Khalai and Nerazim tribes if we go down this road. Specially after HoTS (which unit would replace Oracles?).
And I'm so glad you guys show up to help me work on it. Without all the feedback and bug reports the mod would never be where it stands right now.
I'll check that error message, can you try to replicate it? Attack Carriers before and after the upgrade?
Your statement on Zerg drop pods seems contradictory: Summoning an extra wave of units, even if they deal jack-all dps, would be more useful in defense as you could block off chokepoints or provide temporary meatshields for regular units. Plus you'd realistically be committing all available troops and production facilities to defending anyway, so you wouldn't have anything left to drop. Considering Nydus and all the existing mob spawners I intended the spawned units to be more of a strategic "environmental effect" like forcefields/entomb, not another generic hurr-durr 1a army supplement.
I don't think Ghost drops are feasible, if you want something dead you just throw in some Marines/Hellions. Nuke drops are high cost, high risk, average return (absolute best case you kill 20 Probes and 3-4 Pylons, but if your opponent is that careless you could just go Banshee). It would still be a fun option, especially in the lategame if you nuke 2-3 bases simultaneously, but I doubt it would see much use. I wouldn't see that as a flaw in the drop pod design though.
On the other hand I think drop pods could be used to help compensate the immobility of mech armies. While not as fitting with regards to the lore, gearing drop pods towards mech would also eliminate competition with the Medivac.
Tech Reactors could be balanced for factions that lose a lot of vanilla units (e.g. Colonists), as their main impact is on the cost of tech switches and massing Techlab units, though I don't know whether your plan for Moebius fits that bill.
@SoulFilcher: Go
i think having all three would be good, since there are situations where the drop-pod or the medivac can be better, and since the spec ops drop ship can cloak, your opponent can't see it on the minimap unless they have detection. I'd agree with having cloak come with the spec ops drop ship, no research required.
@Photoloss: Go Ok, we can get back to zerg drop pods later, as I think I wont be able to work on them anytime soon.
Too bad nukeing an enemy base isn't that useful, it should be. I agree Drop Pods may the more use with mech, even though that's weird. I made it so it can't carry a Thor (only 6 slots). I think it would be op to have more slots in the case of early harass moves.
Yeah but how would colonists have access to tech reactors when the military factions don't? Moebius at least studies advanced technology so lore-wise it would fit, but then again they have access to units we d0on't want to see "reactored".
@morgoth780: Go Ok, I'll change it so Spec-Ops gets cloak by default in the next update.
I updated the map here on Mapster. Use this version for test purposes, as I want to chenge it again before uploading it to NA servers. Here's the list of changes:
Train time fixed for Hunter Killers and Kukulzas.
Targeting fixed for Science Vessel's Defensive Matrix and Lockdown.
Left 2 Die brood added. It unlocks Hunterlings, Spotters and Stanks. Kaboomers moved to this brood.
Wraith cost reduced to 150/100 anti-air weapon range increased to 6.
Defiler selection priority increased to be the same as the Infestor. Plague hotkey changed to F.
Reavers can now damage friendly targeted units.
Warp Gate cooldown fiixed for Preservers.
Diamondbacks will benefit from weapon upgrades.
Phoenix's Graviton Beam no longer affects heroic units.
Drop-Pods added to the Factory.
@SoulFilcher: Go
I am able to play on the NA servers, it takes a long time but 1vs1 manageable. I would like to see the ohana map and maybe more 2vs2 maps where 1vs1 is manageable and would it be possible when in the arcade to display the actual maps? Its tedious to look up the name to know what the map look likes for unfamiliar names.
dark swarm has a different tooltip for when it is applied to a unit versus the command box.
wraiths are super expensive. spec ops dropships should cost 200 minerals, with cloak researchable. because they're functionally shuttles.
tech reactors could only work if fusion core enabled them, and if they cost something absurd like 125/75.
I still havent played against competent humans but Goliaths are fairly strong at 2 supply. Probably won't be warhound bad.
@SoulFilcher: Go
I never suggested giving Techreactors to the Colonists, I merely listed them as having a sufficiently different tech tree to avoid balance issues vanilla Terran would have. For Moebius I wasn't sure whether you intended to keep them as they are or switch them to a full scientist/mutant/robot/prototype army in the distant future. I don't want to see any faction with Marauders and Techreactors before Fusion Core though.
Thank you SoulFlicher :D sorry for the late reply. I would just make it a resource-leeching unit with some abilities to hinder or support other Zerg units, I am agreeing with you. I think the idea of disabling pylons is op but I do like the idea of it able to disable radar from Sensor Towers, Detection from turrets, Disruption from Psi-Disrupters like you thought up. For some of the other abilities it could have, why not allow it to spew corruption on a structure and disables its researching/upgrading/training and turns it into a turret for a short-time. This ability would be a could distraction to set up its resource-leeching, for the corrupted structures attack in this state. I imagine acting like a "wasp's nest" in a sense. Like it spawns weak flying melee or ranged units (up to discussion) that orbit it like a swarm of wasps or bees and attack enemies that come near the corrupted structure, I don't seem them able to attack structures only air and ground units. As for a model for the unit you could use GhostNova91's Bone Wasp Model for them :3 if not as a ability for this unit, maybe you could use this idea as a advanced Zerg defense structure.
That is exactly what I was thinking the Bane Creeper, but was thinking it instead deals poison damage passively. Not causing them to explode, instead its poison could have some type debilating effect to it. Maybe reduce armor against armored ground units, could be a good counter for Terrans and Protoss armor. This route instead of being a fragile harassment unit, it could become a sturdy anti-armor unit. As for the Model you could use GhostNova91's Scantilisk or Scorpalisk models ;) To make it sturdy you could make it have good armor and slow speed.
Whilst Playing today, I noticed a bug with upgrading the Mothership Core to the Mothership. The upgrade icon displays only the time to upgrade, but not the mineral/vespene cost.
I also would like to add that the shield battery is a pretty cool idea for the Protoss. If it could heal buildings that would be...interesting, but its current iteration it is still vastly useful. I also appreciate the option of the autocast feature.
In regards to drop pod tech, I would say it would solely be the sort of thing for tactical suicide drops. Not sure which faction that sits with.. maybe multiple? I don't play Terran a lot so I'm not sure. I also endorse Zerg Drops pods!
Keep up the awesomeness!
Sorry for the lack of feedback lately, I haven't been able to do much gaming lately. But seeing as how HoTS has so many new units, the Zerg Evos and new terran units will provide an enhanced brood experience. For example there is an entire set of units with the "Mengsk" prefix, my assumption is that they will be something of an honor-guard, perhaps a faction that gets only the Honor-Guard units? More expensive but increased in strength?
List of "Mengsk" Units:
Note the lack of: SCV, Medivac, Ghost, and Raven. They have no caster units.
I also noticed "Battlecruiser Interceptor" Perhaps the Mobius foundation could use them as prototypes?
There is also a "Dark Protoss Turret" And some structures with "Hybrid" prefix:
As for neutral structures there is a "Xel'Naga Healing Shrine"
For the Colonists faction we get some juicy new units:
You can comb over these and experiment with them as you like.
Sorry for the dealy guys, but work is work. I may be too busy to update the mod for the next 2 or even 3 weeks but I'll try. I wont answer everything as detalied as usual but some points are important.
@FreezingAcidRain: Go All reports and suggestions written down so I can work on them later. Should Reavers actually deal splash damage to friendly units? I wasn't sure when I added the unit so I removed it. I don't remember if it was the case in SC1. Drop-pods can only be launched when they have at least 1 unit inside them, are you sure all your pods were loaded? If they were I will take a look. Your suggestions for the Raptor make it strongly overlap with the Hunterling.
@CactusMeat: Go All bugs and suggestions written down so I can take a look later.
@FirebatRommel: Go I'm only adding custom models for Starcraft lore-based units, otherwise the file size would be huge. Any suggestions for units that don't exist in SC lore must use in-game models and textures. Don't worry, HoTS will unlock a huge list of new models to use, so these ideas may be finished without the need of custom models.
@Regretredress: Go The tooltip bug is caused by the game, lots of buttons lack resource information. I reported this bug to blizzard but nobody answered. Shield Battery is from SC1, not an original idea. I probably wont add the ability to recover structures because it could make cannon rushes even more powerful.
@rickmary: Go Yes, I've seen those list and I'm very excited. Those "primal zerg" seem to me a whole new brood right there for me to include in the mod :-)
Hi guys, we have 2 maps avaiable on EU now, Cloud Kingdom and Megaton, thanks to PlayPrey. We are working on some weird bugs that prevent us from publishing a few others. The version on EU is the same as the one here on mapster.