@emsez51: Go Niadra's brood will probably receive changes that didn't fit the other broods, so it won't be limited to stealth, but yes, I think it will have a few upgrades that make it strong in that aspect. Also if hero more is enabled Niadra herself can reinforce the army on the go by placing eggs, so she's a kind of mobile hatchery.
For Kerrigan I don't have anything gameplay style in mind, I just need to give her some of the evolutions and mutations in HotS, possibly content from other origins too.
Yes, you're right about Zagara, that's why she gets the Egg Cluster building, a cheap macro hatchery that can't be used as an expansion. The Primals are on their own, but Amon's brood will feel incomplete compared to the others for sure. Primals replace everything, the others will also replace and add upgrades. If Amon's brood stays with what it already has it won't be enough.
@Colbijak: Go Yes, progress has been crazy now with LotV, HotS didn't do the same because the campaign additions were not clearly separated by factions, and it kept me undecided back then. There was this unforeseen consequence of using Blizzzard's purifier upgrade, much like the "dark protoss" upgrade before it makes all structures change their appearance, but its a ridiculous texture and I'll have to remove it, my bad.
@nolanstar: Go @emsez51: Go I know the Tentacle Monster very well, I gave it the animations.
@emsez51: Go The one you call spore beast is called zerg artillery in the editor. I already ruled those out, one looks like a cross between guardians and devourers, the other is a headless queen, I don't think I need to add them. The tyrant falls in the category "custom model for custom unit" which means I won't add it, and I didn't know it was available, the model's author is famous for making models for specific projects or never releasing them at all.
Awesome! Well, here's my thoughts: since we definitely know what we expect from Zagara it would be a good idea to start with her.
I'll be using some faction terms found in Kanitala's posted link. I'll start on units first since its probably the biggest difference for each race and continue to compliment the structures from there. To balance the distribution of the 14 strains and 21 unit upgrades , each faction will get 4-5 strains and 7 upgrades, 1 per unit. The unit strains and upgrades are chosen based on the brood's forseen playstyle. You can adjust the costs accordingly if you feel the units are too cheap for their ability but in terms of unit placement i think its where they belong :) hope you have the same thoughts
Zagara
Faction Type: Spammer (numbers) and Ranger (speed)
Insight: dominant early game and strength in numbers, least ability usage
Notes: normal priced units
Units:
Zergling - this is definitely gonna be the backbone unit of Zagara
Strain: Swarmling - best fits her faction type: speed and numbers
Unique Upgrade: Metabolic Boost - speed + numbers through reinforcements
Baneling - having no lurkers, Zagara relies on banelings for her aoe damage.
Strain: Splitter (numbers) - this strain fits her faction more than hunters (efficiency)
Unique Upgrade: Rupture - synergizes well when enemy is swarmed / surrounded
Roach / Ravager: these choices makes roaches effective at holding ground for reinforcements and supporting troops
Strain: Corpser - allows roaches to effectively overwhelm the enemy for support / reinforcements
Unique Upgrade: Hydriodic Bile - this makes the strain ability proc earlier swarming the enemy with roachlings
Hydralisk: valuable anti-air and ranged unit, another backbone of Zagara's troops
Strain: No Lurkers/Impalers - they just don't quite synergize with Zagara's faction type
Unique Upgrade: Grooved Spines - makes it so that hydras attack earlier and is more effectively used when you have tons of zerglings or banelings in front
Ultralisk: lacking lurkers, this will be another reliable source of aoe
Strain: No Strain: the strains work better with the other factions
Unique Upgrade: Monarch Blades - this alone is enough to make Zagara's ultralisk effective in her playstyle, also supplements her lack of lurkers
(Considering the current build, the carrion strain and the burrow evolution is redundant. to compensate i made the creeper ability a unique upgrade instead making it on par with pressurized glands, but this made the rapid incubation look lackluster compared to the two, so i combined enduring locust with the ability making the locust last around 28 seconds and cooldown at 34.4 seconds fits perfectly with Zagara. Dunno how it should be named... evolved incubation? Another viable option was to retain the strains having carrion produce 1 extra locust instead. For the upgrade change burrow to enduring locusts, i'll be using the second suggestion as the choices for the first one is obvious enough)
Swarm Host: focuses on endless waves to overwhelm the enemy
Strain: Carrion - summons an extra locust maximizing the ability despite the long cooldown
Unique Upgrade: Enduring Locusts - with the remade carrion, this would synergize well with it as 1 extra locust per swarm host will improve the survival rate of te locusts
(I made the brood lord and viper be included as strains similar to hots campaign, obviously they aren't but applying this format in unit selection would make the units more varied)
Mutalisk:
Strain: Brood Lord - siege unit that overwhelms the enemy fits right in with Zagara can also include the porous upgrade for faster movement
Unique Upgrade: Vicious Glave - when you are massing to counter your enemies, this upgrade is better on her than the other upgrades.
Kerrigan
Faction Type: Elitist (efficiency) and Generalist (versatility)
Insight: has the most versatile units some really powerful ones later in the game but needs to safely build up first
Notes: unit costs should probably be higher to justify playstyle
Units:
Zergling - scout and supplementary unit for kerrigan
Strain: No Strain - kerrigan has a lot of cost-effective and versatile units mid to late game making the zerglings less valuable as compared to Zagara
Unique Upgrade: Hardened Carapace - makes the zerglings more cost-efficient and synergizes well with baneling upgrade
Baneling - used less often because of Kerrigan's lurkers, functions as a great supplementry unit
Strain: No Strain - with very capable lurkers, kerrigan has not much use for baneling strains as much as the other two
Unique Upgrade: Regenerative Acid - makes the offensive banelings a viable support unit, useful in keeping kerrigan's high-cost and efficient units alive longer
Roach / Ravager: a cost-effective versatile unit that can function as a damage absorber or debuffer
Strain: Vile - increases roach combat effectivity by a ton allowing them to effectively progress kerrigan into the later game
Unique Upgrade: Adaptive Plating - conpliments the strain and kerrigans defensive early play
Hydralisk: very versatile ground unit that can attack ground and air units, definitely the one of the backbone of kerrigan playstyle
Strain: Lurker - not specialized (impaler) and very effective against most if not all ground units. can include siesmic spines upgrade similar to exclusive brood lord upgrade from Zagara
Unique Upgrade: Ancillary Carapace - alleviates the problem of hydras dying quickly despite its versatility, makes hydras a very solid unit for kerrigan
Ultralisk: acts as kerrigan's troops' frontliner to shield the lesser health zerg or just outright pound the opponent with a few of them
Strain: Torrasque - allows Ultralisks to be very useable frontliner despite being costly and easily focused down by troop numbers (efficient)
Unique Upgrade: Tissue Assimilation - conpliments the strong points of the strain as long as it can effectively engage the enemy
Swarm Host: without broodlords or vipers kerrigan trades the safer air units to more vulnerable ground ones with the ability to attack air instead, despite the long cooldown
Strain: No Strain - the upgrade is powerful enough to allow kerrigan's swarmhost to be competitive without a strain.
Unique Upgrade: Pressurized Glands - converts the swarmhost into an amazingly (almost perfect) versatile unit that can counter most enemy compositions but with a long cooldown as its drawback.
Mutalisk: with the upgrade, kerrigan's mutalisk becomes a versatile flyer that can counter most air units effectively widening its usage
Strain: No strain - Broodlords and vipers are replaced with Swarmhost that attacks air.
Unique Upgrade: Sundering Glave - this upgrade alleviates the absence of vipers, also making mutalisks able to fight against enemy ships
Niadra
Faction Type: Guerilla (surprise tactics) and Specialist (hard counters)
Insights: has the most active abilities that conpliments her playstyle
Notes: should also have higher cost units than Zagara's but not as much as kerrigan's
Units:
Zergling - utilizing its speed and strain Niadra's zerglings are great ambushers to take out low resistance targets
Strain: Raptor - perfect for ambushes and surprise tactics synergizing very well with Niadra's playstyle
Unique Upgrade: Adrenal Overload - allows Niadra's Zerglings to accomplish their task before they are eliminated
Baneling - complementing her zerglings, Niadra's banelings allows her zerglings to take out more fortified or high priority targets
Strain: Hunter - makes Niadra's banelings synergize well with her zerglings for optimal plays or eliminating threats for advantage
Unique Upgrade: Corrosive Acid - makes Niadra's baneling more effective in its role in Niadra's playstyle
Roach / Ravager: with its upgrade burrow roaches can be used to its full stealth potential
Strain: No Strain - roach strains have less use to Niadra compared to the other 2
Unique Upgrade: Tunneling Claws - faster burrow movement and regeneration while burrowed doubles the roach's ambush capabilities and hit and run strategy effectiveness
Hydralisk: with a bit higher cost zerg units Niadra cannot spam them as much as zagara nor would they have the higher hp of Kerrigan's. These choices both complement her playstyle and unit variety
Strain: Impaler - Allows Niadra to effectively counter armored units without being forced into disadvantageous trades
Unique Upgrade: Frenzy - promotes and rewards Niadra's more difficult hit and run play and gives precious seconds that counter their weaknesses compared to the other broods.
Ultralisk: similar to Zagara, Niadra does not have lurkers for aoe but her banelings are also not as effective aoe wise compared to Zagara's. Noxious strain alleviates this
Strain: Noxious Strain - gives Niadra's troops reliable aoe damage as long as she can use its toxic blast effectively
Unique Upgrade: Burrow Charge - ensures Niadra's ultralisks are in proper positioning to maximize the units potential and role
Swarm Host: A very effective Tactical unit for Niadra, allowing her to ambush vulnerable enemies from time to time while staying somewhat safe.
Strain: Creeper Strain - compliments Niadra's surprise attacks and hit and runs tactics effectively getting in and out of enemy territory faster
Unique Upgrade: Rapid Incubation - lessens the time in-between raids to vulnerable enemy locations, putting more pressure and control over the enemy growth
Mutalisk: Specialized in picking off enemies and weakening them with hit and run tactics of Niadra's preferred playstyle
Strain: Viper Strain: a definite choice for Niadra, allowing her to pick off her priority enemies along with an anti air ability to bolster the less effective zerg anti-air units
Unique Upgrade: Rapid Regeneration - most effective upgrade for Niadra's mutalisk, allowing them to recover from counter attacks and harass faster
I hope I'm not oversuggesting and that these ideas are to your liking, i don't mind if you dont use some of the ideas or scrap it all entirely :) wanna hear from you soon :)
@emsez51: Go There are a few issues with your suggestions. Let me go through them and explain. First, do not consider strains that make no sense within the multiplayer current situation. Lurkers are standard units, not a special strain. Some upgrades are already used in multiplayer and should not be considered something new (but they can still be replaced or removed if needed).
ZAGARA: zergling - metabolic boost is a standard upgrade, I make no distinction between melee and campaign versions. So it can't be an exclusive upgrade unless I disable it for everyone else, which I probably won't.
Baneling - are you suggesting Rupture as an additional upgrade or as a replacement for Centrifugal Hooks? This is very important for balancing this unit since I believe having both would be too strong (plus splitterling strain).
Roach - I never liked the idea of adding Corpsers, I'd have to balance them somehow, I think that just by having this strain one standard upgrade should be removed, adding yet another one is just over the top.
Swarm Host - forget the Carrion, it doesn't count anymore, I'm using the Carrion's model for the primal Swarm Host, and enduring locusts for them since they work like HotS swarm hosts. Honestly I don't even stop to think about swarm host campaign upgrades because of how different the unit is now. I'd have to rethink its options and I will leave that for later.
Mutalisk - Do not use the campaign evolutions or consider Brood Lords and Vipers units that depend on the Mutalisk. They are separate in melee and they stay separate here. Brood Lords come from Corruptors. I think giving both Vicious Glaive and Brood Lord speed to the same brood would give it a stronger air composition and this is not meant to be Zagara's brood.
KERRIGAN: Zergling - Hardened carapace as an additional upgrade or as a replacement? The unit already has 2 upgrades so I'd probably replace one.
Roach - I added the vile strain ability as an upgrade, I felt it was too strong to be unlocked by default. I could make it default if the unit lost something, maybe the burrowed regeneration. Again, coupling a strain with an additional upgrade can be very strong, I'd keep the upgrades for broods that won't get the strains.
Hydralisk - I feel it is underwhelming to give Kerrigan standard lurkers because she's the one using special strains, and lurkers are standard units in LotV. I also don't see much sense in giving Niadra special strains as she was the exact opposite in her mission.
Ultralisk - Keep in mind that the Torrasque Resurrection ability MUST be nerfed for multiplayer, it effectively gives you free Ultralisks in the middle of the combat. The ability will require players to pay for the new ultralisk, but the cocoons can also tank some damage if the enemy player decides to kill them. Same issue as before, an upgrade with a strain, and I'm not sure I'd couple these 2 in particular.
Mutalisk - Same as before, these are not following the campaign strains, and I feel that disabling both Brood Lords and Vipers is just too much. The brood doesn't get enough additions to justify disabling 2 units.
NIADRA: Zergling - The Raptor is a very hard strain to balance, I had to give them a gas cost and balance them vs banelings because it was total madness. I can't possibly give it as an upgrade or anything without adding an individual unit cost. Adrenal Overload is just another name for Adrenal Glands, so there's no change here.
Baneling - Hunters with Raptors? Do you have any idea of how destructive they are in multiplayer? You can't make this suggestion without a serious balance proposal. Raptors and Hunters are possibly the most game-changing strains in the whole campaign, and hard to be nerfed since they work around a key ability that just is or isn't there. I'd never couple them with corrosive bile. For Niadra I feel Tunneling Jaws is more than enough.
Roach - You're sticking too much to campaing and not considering standard melee. Tunneling Claws is a standard upgrade in melee thus can't be considered an exclusive upgrade, unless you go on disabling it for a few of the other broods that get a different upgrade.
Hydralisk - I'm not sure what you mean by higher unit costs, I'm not changing those. Hydralisks will always cost the same. I like the Frenzy suggestion, but I need to give it some counterplay, my idea would be to apply a debuff to attack speed after the duration of Frenzy expires, so the player must plan it's use.
Ultralisk - Noxious coupled with Burrow Charge would be hard to play against. Players need to keep their distance from ultralisks more than ever, and these are the hardest ones to keep a distance? They are too game changing, but I'd like to have these in the mod separately. Note: I think that during LotV Kerrigan uses mostly Noxious Ultralisks.
Swarm Host - The Creeper needs changes, it produces creep while burrowed but they are no longer supposed to stay burrowed for long periods, maybe I should just keep the Deep Tunnel ability (with a limited range though). This is one of the few cases where I do agree the strain and upgrade use should be used together, but I'd rather not add these 2 and still keep Flying locusts.
Mutalisk - Rapid Regeneration is a standard ability in multiplayer. I think it makes sense to disable Brood Lords here.
I think it is funny that from all your suggestions Kerrigan is the one having more units disabled. You also did not consider what the other broodmothers could add to Niadra's brood or the onctext of having unit upgrades for the units that didn't get upgrades in HotS, and those could potentially help in roles you commented here.
Lol well i was considering individual playstyles and adding in the campaign units accordingly, i definitely based most added stuff on the campaign and distributing them to the brood that is more fit in terms of playstyle to use them. As i said I'm not too much of a competitive player and mainly play casually with friends and mostly coop which is where i base my decisions. Sorry bout the no balance stuff its just that these are what i consider fun when i play my sessions with friends, almost always coop, and i dont have much experience in competitive to know what is too overpowered. Well i guess i dont really have much stuff to say anymore haha, i guess i'll just look for bugs lol, for kerrigan i noticed a bug that makes me unable to morph impalers since it said i required a lurker den which i cannot create anymore since it was replaced by an inpaler den :)
@emsez51: Go Coop has two important differences: it is a player vs AI game mode, so balance is totally different meaning that what can or can't be given to players is also different (try playing versus Spear of Adun abilities and tell me how you feel). And it also does not make changes from a pre-established list of units, they make a list (shorter than melee full list of units) with whatever they feel should be included, while here I modify from melee.
Don't take me wrong, I do appreciate your suggestions and I will make use of some you posted here. It is very helpful to be able to see things from a different point of view so I can escape some of the dead ends I create.
A random thought here with the Raptorling. Is it the cliffjumping or the leaping at enemies that is more overpowered? Perhaps try giving it one or the other but not both?
Imho torrasques and noxilisk are fun to play, so they deserve their plave in mod, if nerfed a bit. Raptors which can only be morpherd from lings and dont have cliff jumping ability - whuich is the one design breaking (only simple jump) - are probably fine, too
Kerrigan brood might have impaler
And where such dislike for roach strains comes from? Just make them cost more...
It's alright i definitely understand your point of view, well If ever I guess I'll try to give unit suggestions one at a time instead that should'nt be too hard to visualize in meelee in terms of balance.
"Zergling - The Raptor is a very hard strain to balance, I had to give them a gas cost and balance them vs banelings because it was total madness. I can't possibly give it as an upgrade or anything without adding an individual unit cost."
I actually don't mind the added cost same with other units, if i like to play the unit I'd play it even if there's an added cost just to balance it. in other terms id rather have it more expensive than remove it, just my opinion though, dunno how others would feel. I dont mind adding costs to balance overpowered units in my previous post but of course its up to you :). but i think whatever faction gets raptor has to have their normal zergling removed? or maybe what you can do is allow it to morph into a raptorling like a hydra into lurker in a little time, and you can add the cost on the evolution option instead?
"Baneling - Raptors and Hunters are possibly the most game-changing strains in the whole campaign, and hard to be nerfed since they work around a key ability that just is or isn't there. I'd never couple them with corrosive bile. For Niadra I feel Tunneling Jaws is more than enough."
well i definitely second kanitala's post suggestion on removing the more overpowered part (jumping cliffs or jumping on enemies same with the raptorling)
"Roach - Tunneling Claws is a standard upgrade in melee thus can't be considered an exclusive upgrade, unless you go on disabling it for a few of the other broods that get a different upgrade."
actually for my previous post i was considering the unique upgrades only available to the said faction thus disabling it on the other broods, i thought this would give a lot of unit variety between factions so that each faction feels different. they still retain any normal upgrades in multiplayer that is not a unique upgrade in another faction.
"Swarm Host - The Creeper needs changes, it produces creep while burrowed but they are no longer supposed to stay burrowed for long periods, maybe I should just keep the Deep Tunnel ability (with a limited range though). This is one of the few cases where I do agree the strain and upgrade use should be used together, but I'd rather not add these 2 and still keep Flying locusts."
the producing creep while burrowed function is actually good to send reinforcements instantly, limiting the range wouldn't do much in terms of its strength (they will just use it again) i think adding a cooldown would work better for deep tunnel. I actually prefer the gound locusts for the creeper strain, its more effective defensively as the enemis will have to go through the locusts first before reaching the host which could then be maneuvered strategically. having the creeper spawn locust only when burrowed could somewhat balance this.
do you plan to add in pressurized glands on another brood? (not on the creeper strain of course) and what are your thoughts on locust cooldown length?
@Kanitala: Go The cliff jumping, these units are balanced around the fact you can keep them out of your base (at least for terran and to some extent for protoss too), zerg just fights them on equal terms. Reapers are balanced around having this ability. If banelings jump into your base they go to your mineral line and explode, you don't have a time window to counter them and prevent more damage. I made tests back when I added raptors (it was before HotS release actually) and even with the added gas cost players preferred raptors over banelings (those raptors didn't even have the auto-cast jump at enemies).
@SiarX: Go Yes, I will add the Ultralisk strains, I just have to balance them, like I had to do with Monarch Blades. Now I had this idea maybe instead of an always active cliff-jumping movement Raptors could have an active jump with a long cooldown that requires vision like Blink. I'm not sure it would make them less overpowered but at least if they jump to escape you can prepare before they jump back into your base. Another option is to make the ability require an upgrade that replaces a standard one (probably adrenal glands)
@emsez51: Go But the catch is that unit variations (not entirely new unit types), were added to the game using the same unit cost/supply cost/build time. It makes things easier for the players (and for me too). Whenever you build an Immortal or any of its variations it has the same cost and you count on it having a similar "power" or "utility" as the other variations. Some are a little stronger than the others but I always try to level them. I don't want to start changing cost for variations, it will make me lose an initial point of stability for what is in the mod. It is a design choice I want to keep. The only reason the Raptor was kept in the mod is because it is an option to banelings, not a replacement for zerglings, they require a baneling nest, cost gas, do not benefit from standard zergling upgrades. They can't fill the "cheap mineral dump" role zerglings fill.
Ok, so you meant those roach upgrades were replacements for tunneling claws. Keep in mind tunneling claws is also the upgrade that gives the bonus regeneration while burrowed (or is it? I'm not up to date with LotV melee sadly). I understand you suggestion now and it is something I already do in the mod when necessary.
Yes, Deep Tunnel totally needs a cooldown, but keeping the creep production would make them too independent in my opinion. Deep Tunnel is already a great tool for harassment, players should at least be good at spreading creep or bring an overlord to a strategic point. I think replacing flying locusts with rapid incubation could be an interesting option here, so they at least don't spam flying locusts into your base from all sides. I can add pressurized glands, but let's recap: standard swarm hosts are like Carrions, primals get HotS swarm hosts, Niadra gets creeper with rapid incubation replacing flying locusts, pressurized glands then should go to Kerrigan and Amon keeps the standard hosts? I think we could settle all swarm host variations this way.
I think it was more efficient to discuss all variations for a single unit type. Now I want to know what you guys think about these ideas for swarm hosts. Are these worth testing?
Imho jumping at units is enough for Raptors to stand unique and interesting. Cliff jumping only makes them gamebreaking, and your suggestion is too similiar to already existing blink
Burrow charge might be either costly upgrade of have long recharge time or both
Swarm Hosts... Deep Tunnel is probably fine from pov of game design though sometimes OP. Flying locusts is not smth new, maybe make them slow or poison hit enemies instead?
At least someone should get standart SH. And likely not Kerrigan since her brood is about unusual units, right?
Actually now that i think about it, Niadra's creeper strain creep generation can be removed as i think you mentioned before that she would be getting the creep tower nydus thing which would actually make for fun play. Then to compliment this a nice addition would be deep tunneling queens to provide air support and creep tumors cementing the creep play even better, of course with deep tunnel cooldown too. I second your decision on rapid incubation over flying locusts, this would also force Niadra's creepers to better utilize their deep tunnel ability to position creepers. For the cooldown would you set it to LoTV's 43 sec? Bringing it down to 34.4 with rapid incubation. Also the duration of the locusts without flying locust upgrade i think is 10 seconds less. I feel that 34.4 sec is still a long cd especially considering that to use the creeper effectively without flying locust it would need to position itself in a very risky area to maximize its locusts. Releasing 2 locusts per host that can be taken down in about 4 sec each tops would make the creeper's journey a suicidal one if theres no place to retreat to and with deep tunnel in cd. Or maybe im missing something here?
Oh what do you mean by hots swarm host? Are you stating the previous low cd, need to burrow and auto cast on enemy sight one?
Kerrigan having the pressurized glands is by itself enough so I dont have much objections on this one, its actually nice.
Amon with standard/original hosts is also good, theme wise it fits really well as he's the one with the orig sc1 units.
Hey, I've been playing around with your mod (amped) against the ai and I like it a lot. It's pretty clean in general, but I found some bugs with the infested terran faction.
can't make elite units from barracks, pressing the elite button doesn't work
some units don't have infested skin (LoTV and elite units from factory/starport)
if you choose goliath, you can build the infested one and the elite on, they just have different skins
fatty can only use fungal growth
In the HotS version, the infested zealot upgrade is still available for the hybrid slaves, but the infestor was replaced by the defiler. The infestation pit says something about an infestation specialist, but I don't know where it is in the spawning pool. Also, I know you're concerned with balance, but it'd be great if the hybrids and the infested marines/zealots could scale off upgrades.
@SiarX: Go Yeah, I will keep thinking about Raptors. For Kerrigan's SH I think pressurized glands is enough to make the unit very different, as it provides an extra way to fight air.
@emsez51: Go Yes, Creep Tower + Creeper for an extra creepy combo. I think using Deep Tunnel to reach undefended locations, or using the locusts on defended locations than Deep Tunnel to safety could work. Bu Hots Swarm host I mean the original one with all the stats, lower CD and autocast spawns when burrowed, but I gave it the campaign "root" ability instead of burrow.
@xopietaster: Go Welcome to mapster and to this thread! I am not the author of the amped version so I can't help you with the bugs. By what you said it seems that one is using an outdated version of SC Expanded. The Elite buttons were never meant to be there. I haven't added the infested effect to LotV units yet. Fatties are still very unfinished, maybe I should move them back to test mode. I will check the other things they seem like real bugs from my side.
Be sure to check out the extension mod: Hots Custom Map support on NA and EU, Despite the name it greatly expands the roster of options for the default 3 races and is updated all the way to NCO.
Be sure to check out the extension mod: Hots Custom Map support on NA and EU, Despite the name it greatly expands the roster of options for the default 3 races and is updated all the way to NCO.
I don't actually know how the ai in sc2 works, but i noticed that on some mods the elite ai dumbs down a lot, was wondering if the ai can fully utilize sc expanded. :)
@xopietaster: Go It will be fixed in the next update.
@emsez51: Go AI should work properly in SC Expanded and use some of the units from the factions they pick. But I haven't updated them since I added LotV so I can't really tell how they will behave.
@emsez51: Go Niadra's brood will probably receive changes that didn't fit the other broods, so it won't be limited to stealth, but yes, I think it will have a few upgrades that make it strong in that aspect. Also if hero more is enabled Niadra herself can reinforce the army on the go by placing eggs, so she's a kind of mobile hatchery.
For Kerrigan I don't have anything gameplay style in mind, I just need to give her some of the evolutions and mutations in HotS, possibly content from other origins too.
Yes, you're right about Zagara, that's why she gets the Egg Cluster building, a cheap macro hatchery that can't be used as an expansion. The Primals are on their own, but Amon's brood will feel incomplete compared to the others for sure. Primals replace everything, the others will also replace and add upgrades. If Amon's brood stays with what it already has it won't be enough.
@Kanitala: Go I will try to check it, thank you.
@Colbijak: Go Yes, progress has been crazy now with LotV, HotS didn't do the same because the campaign additions were not clearly separated by factions, and it kept me undecided back then. There was this unforeseen consequence of using Blizzzard's purifier upgrade, much like the "dark protoss" upgrade before it makes all structures change their appearance, but its a ridiculous texture and I'll have to remove it, my bad.
@nolanstar: Go @emsez51: Go I know the Tentacle Monster very well, I gave it the animations.
@emsez51: Go The one you call spore beast is called zerg artillery in the editor. I already ruled those out, one looks like a cross between guardians and devourers, the other is a headless queen, I don't think I need to add them. The tyrant falls in the category "custom model for custom unit" which means I won't add it, and I didn't know it was available, the model's author is famous for making models for specific projects or never releasing them at all.
Awesome! Well, here's my thoughts: since we definitely know what we expect from Zagara it would be a good idea to start with her. I'll be using some faction terms found in Kanitala's posted link. I'll start on units first since its probably the biggest difference for each race and continue to compliment the structures from there. To balance the distribution of the 14 strains and 21 unit upgrades , each faction will get 4-5 strains and 7 upgrades, 1 per unit. The unit strains and upgrades are chosen based on the brood's forseen playstyle. You can adjust the costs accordingly if you feel the units are too cheap for their ability but in terms of unit placement i think its where they belong :) hope you have the same thoughts
Zagara
Faction Type: Spammer (numbers) and Ranger (speed)
Units:
Zergling - this is definitely gonna be the backbone unit of Zagara
Baneling - having no lurkers, Zagara relies on banelings for her aoe damage.
Roach / Ravager: these choices makes roaches effective at holding ground for reinforcements and supporting troops
Hydralisk: valuable anti-air and ranged unit, another backbone of Zagara's troops
Ultralisk: lacking lurkers, this will be another reliable source of aoe
(Considering the current build, the carrion strain and the burrow evolution is redundant. to compensate i made the creeper ability a unique upgrade instead making it on par with pressurized glands, but this made the rapid incubation look lackluster compared to the two, so i combined enduring locust with the ability making the locust last around 28 seconds and cooldown at 34.4 seconds fits perfectly with Zagara. Dunno how it should be named... evolved incubation? Another viable option was to retain the strains having carrion produce 1 extra locust instead. For the upgrade change burrow to enduring locusts, i'll be using the second suggestion as the choices for the first one is obvious enough)
Swarm Host: focuses on endless waves to overwhelm the enemy
(I made the brood lord and viper be included as strains similar to hots campaign, obviously they aren't but applying this format in unit selection would make the units more varied)
Mutalisk:
Kerrigan
Faction Type: Elitist (efficiency) and Generalist (versatility)
Units:
Zergling - scout and supplementary unit for kerrigan
Baneling - used less often because of Kerrigan's lurkers, functions as a great supplementry unit
Roach / Ravager: a cost-effective versatile unit that can function as a damage absorber or debuffer
Hydralisk: very versatile ground unit that can attack ground and air units, definitely the one of the backbone of kerrigan playstyle
Ultralisk: acts as kerrigan's troops' frontliner to shield the lesser health zerg or just outright pound the opponent with a few of them
Swarm Host: without broodlords or vipers kerrigan trades the safer air units to more vulnerable ground ones with the ability to attack air instead, despite the long cooldown
Mutalisk: with the upgrade, kerrigan's mutalisk becomes a versatile flyer that can counter most air units effectively widening its usage
Niadra
Faction Type: Guerilla (surprise tactics) and Specialist (hard counters)
Units:
Zergling - utilizing its speed and strain Niadra's zerglings are great ambushers to take out low resistance targets
Baneling - complementing her zerglings, Niadra's banelings allows her zerglings to take out more fortified or high priority targets
Roach / Ravager: with its upgrade burrow roaches can be used to its full stealth potential
Hydralisk: with a bit higher cost zerg units Niadra cannot spam them as much as zagara nor would they have the higher hp of Kerrigan's. These choices both complement her playstyle and unit variety
Ultralisk: similar to Zagara, Niadra does not have lurkers for aoe but her banelings are also not as effective aoe wise compared to Zagara's. Noxious strain alleviates this
Swarm Host: A very effective Tactical unit for Niadra, allowing her to ambush vulnerable enemies from time to time while staying somewhat safe.
Mutalisk: Specialized in picking off enemies and weakening them with hit and run tactics of Niadra's preferred playstyle
I hope I'm not oversuggesting and that these ideas are to your liking, i don't mind if you dont use some of the ideas or scrap it all entirely :) wanna hear from you soon :)
@emsez51: Go There are a few issues with your suggestions. Let me go through them and explain. First, do not consider strains that make no sense within the multiplayer current situation. Lurkers are standard units, not a special strain. Some upgrades are already used in multiplayer and should not be considered something new (but they can still be replaced or removed if needed).
ZAGARA: zergling - metabolic boost is a standard upgrade, I make no distinction between melee and campaign versions. So it can't be an exclusive upgrade unless I disable it for everyone else, which I probably won't.
Baneling - are you suggesting Rupture as an additional upgrade or as a replacement for Centrifugal Hooks? This is very important for balancing this unit since I believe having both would be too strong (plus splitterling strain).
Roach - I never liked the idea of adding Corpsers, I'd have to balance them somehow, I think that just by having this strain one standard upgrade should be removed, adding yet another one is just over the top.
Swarm Host - forget the Carrion, it doesn't count anymore, I'm using the Carrion's model for the primal Swarm Host, and enduring locusts for them since they work like HotS swarm hosts. Honestly I don't even stop to think about swarm host campaign upgrades because of how different the unit is now. I'd have to rethink its options and I will leave that for later.
Mutalisk - Do not use the campaign evolutions or consider Brood Lords and Vipers units that depend on the Mutalisk. They are separate in melee and they stay separate here. Brood Lords come from Corruptors. I think giving both Vicious Glaive and Brood Lord speed to the same brood would give it a stronger air composition and this is not meant to be Zagara's brood.
KERRIGAN: Zergling - Hardened carapace as an additional upgrade or as a replacement? The unit already has 2 upgrades so I'd probably replace one.
Roach - I added the vile strain ability as an upgrade, I felt it was too strong to be unlocked by default. I could make it default if the unit lost something, maybe the burrowed regeneration. Again, coupling a strain with an additional upgrade can be very strong, I'd keep the upgrades for broods that won't get the strains.
Hydralisk - I feel it is underwhelming to give Kerrigan standard lurkers because she's the one using special strains, and lurkers are standard units in LotV. I also don't see much sense in giving Niadra special strains as she was the exact opposite in her mission.
Ultralisk - Keep in mind that the Torrasque Resurrection ability MUST be nerfed for multiplayer, it effectively gives you free Ultralisks in the middle of the combat. The ability will require players to pay for the new ultralisk, but the cocoons can also tank some damage if the enemy player decides to kill them. Same issue as before, an upgrade with a strain, and I'm not sure I'd couple these 2 in particular.
Mutalisk - Same as before, these are not following the campaign strains, and I feel that disabling both Brood Lords and Vipers is just too much. The brood doesn't get enough additions to justify disabling 2 units.
NIADRA: Zergling - The Raptor is a very hard strain to balance, I had to give them a gas cost and balance them vs banelings because it was total madness. I can't possibly give it as an upgrade or anything without adding an individual unit cost. Adrenal Overload is just another name for Adrenal Glands, so there's no change here.
Baneling - Hunters with Raptors? Do you have any idea of how destructive they are in multiplayer? You can't make this suggestion without a serious balance proposal. Raptors and Hunters are possibly the most game-changing strains in the whole campaign, and hard to be nerfed since they work around a key ability that just is or isn't there. I'd never couple them with corrosive bile. For Niadra I feel Tunneling Jaws is more than enough.
Roach - You're sticking too much to campaing and not considering standard melee. Tunneling Claws is a standard upgrade in melee thus can't be considered an exclusive upgrade, unless you go on disabling it for a few of the other broods that get a different upgrade.
Hydralisk - I'm not sure what you mean by higher unit costs, I'm not changing those. Hydralisks will always cost the same. I like the Frenzy suggestion, but I need to give it some counterplay, my idea would be to apply a debuff to attack speed after the duration of Frenzy expires, so the player must plan it's use.
Ultralisk - Noxious coupled with Burrow Charge would be hard to play against. Players need to keep their distance from ultralisks more than ever, and these are the hardest ones to keep a distance? They are too game changing, but I'd like to have these in the mod separately. Note: I think that during LotV Kerrigan uses mostly Noxious Ultralisks.
Swarm Host - The Creeper needs changes, it produces creep while burrowed but they are no longer supposed to stay burrowed for long periods, maybe I should just keep the Deep Tunnel ability (with a limited range though). This is one of the few cases where I do agree the strain and upgrade use should be used together, but I'd rather not add these 2 and still keep Flying locusts.
Mutalisk - Rapid Regeneration is a standard ability in multiplayer. I think it makes sense to disable Brood Lords here.
I think it is funny that from all your suggestions Kerrigan is the one having more units disabled. You also did not consider what the other broodmothers could add to Niadra's brood or the onctext of having unit upgrades for the units that didn't get upgrades in HotS, and those could potentially help in roles you commented here.
Lol well i was considering individual playstyles and adding in the campaign units accordingly, i definitely based most added stuff on the campaign and distributing them to the brood that is more fit in terms of playstyle to use them. As i said I'm not too much of a competitive player and mainly play casually with friends and mostly coop which is where i base my decisions. Sorry bout the no balance stuff its just that these are what i consider fun when i play my sessions with friends, almost always coop, and i dont have much experience in competitive to know what is too overpowered. Well i guess i dont really have much stuff to say anymore haha, i guess i'll just look for bugs lol, for kerrigan i noticed a bug that makes me unable to morph impalers since it said i required a lurker den which i cannot create anymore since it was replaced by an inpaler den :)
@emsez51: Go Coop has two important differences: it is a player vs AI game mode, so balance is totally different meaning that what can or can't be given to players is also different (try playing versus Spear of Adun abilities and tell me how you feel). And it also does not make changes from a pre-established list of units, they make a list (shorter than melee full list of units) with whatever they feel should be included, while here I modify from melee.
Don't take me wrong, I do appreciate your suggestions and I will make use of some you posted here. It is very helpful to be able to see things from a different point of view so I can escape some of the dead ends I create.
A random thought here with the Raptorling. Is it the cliffjumping or the leaping at enemies that is more overpowered? Perhaps try giving it one or the other but not both?
Imho torrasques and noxilisk are fun to play, so they deserve their plave in mod, if nerfed a bit. Raptors which can only be morpherd from lings and dont have cliff jumping ability - whuich is the one design breaking (only simple jump) - are probably fine, too Kerrigan brood might have impaler And where such dislike for roach strains comes from? Just make them cost more...
It's alright i definitely understand your point of view, well If ever I guess I'll try to give unit suggestions one at a time instead that should'nt be too hard to visualize in meelee in terms of balance.
"Zergling - The Raptor is a very hard strain to balance, I had to give them a gas cost and balance them vs banelings because it was total madness. I can't possibly give it as an upgrade or anything without adding an individual unit cost."
I actually don't mind the added cost same with other units, if i like to play the unit I'd play it even if there's an added cost just to balance it. in other terms id rather have it more expensive than remove it, just my opinion though, dunno how others would feel. I dont mind adding costs to balance overpowered units in my previous post but of course its up to you :). but i think whatever faction gets raptor has to have their normal zergling removed? or maybe what you can do is allow it to morph into a raptorling like a hydra into lurker in a little time, and you can add the cost on the evolution option instead?
"Baneling - Raptors and Hunters are possibly the most game-changing strains in the whole campaign, and hard to be nerfed since they work around a key ability that just is or isn't there. I'd never couple them with corrosive bile. For Niadra I feel Tunneling Jaws is more than enough."
well i definitely second kanitala's post suggestion on removing the more overpowered part (jumping cliffs or jumping on enemies same with the raptorling)
"Roach - Tunneling Claws is a standard upgrade in melee thus can't be considered an exclusive upgrade, unless you go on disabling it for a few of the other broods that get a different upgrade."
actually for my previous post i was considering the unique upgrades only available to the said faction thus disabling it on the other broods, i thought this would give a lot of unit variety between factions so that each faction feels different. they still retain any normal upgrades in multiplayer that is not a unique upgrade in another faction.
"Swarm Host - The Creeper needs changes, it produces creep while burrowed but they are no longer supposed to stay burrowed for long periods, maybe I should just keep the Deep Tunnel ability (with a limited range though). This is one of the few cases where I do agree the strain and upgrade use should be used together, but I'd rather not add these 2 and still keep Flying locusts."
the producing creep while burrowed function is actually good to send reinforcements instantly, limiting the range wouldn't do much in terms of its strength (they will just use it again) i think adding a cooldown would work better for deep tunnel. I actually prefer the gound locusts for the creeper strain, its more effective defensively as the enemis will have to go through the locusts first before reaching the host which could then be maneuvered strategically. having the creeper spawn locust only when burrowed could somewhat balance this.
do you plan to add in pressurized glands on another brood? (not on the creeper strain of course) and what are your thoughts on locust cooldown length?
@Kanitala: Go The cliff jumping, these units are balanced around the fact you can keep them out of your base (at least for terran and to some extent for protoss too), zerg just fights them on equal terms. Reapers are balanced around having this ability. If banelings jump into your base they go to your mineral line and explode, you don't have a time window to counter them and prevent more damage. I made tests back when I added raptors (it was before HotS release actually) and even with the added gas cost players preferred raptors over banelings (those raptors didn't even have the auto-cast jump at enemies).
@SiarX: Go Yes, I will add the Ultralisk strains, I just have to balance them, like I had to do with Monarch Blades. Now I had this idea maybe instead of an always active cliff-jumping movement Raptors could have an active jump with a long cooldown that requires vision like Blink. I'm not sure it would make them less overpowered but at least if they jump to escape you can prepare before they jump back into your base. Another option is to make the ability require an upgrade that replaces a standard one (probably adrenal glands)
@emsez51: Go But the catch is that unit variations (not entirely new unit types), were added to the game using the same unit cost/supply cost/build time. It makes things easier for the players (and for me too). Whenever you build an Immortal or any of its variations it has the same cost and you count on it having a similar "power" or "utility" as the other variations. Some are a little stronger than the others but I always try to level them. I don't want to start changing cost for variations, it will make me lose an initial point of stability for what is in the mod. It is a design choice I want to keep. The only reason the Raptor was kept in the mod is because it is an option to banelings, not a replacement for zerglings, they require a baneling nest, cost gas, do not benefit from standard zergling upgrades. They can't fill the "cheap mineral dump" role zerglings fill.
Ok, so you meant those roach upgrades were replacements for tunneling claws. Keep in mind tunneling claws is also the upgrade that gives the bonus regeneration while burrowed (or is it? I'm not up to date with LotV melee sadly). I understand you suggestion now and it is something I already do in the mod when necessary.
Yes, Deep Tunnel totally needs a cooldown, but keeping the creep production would make them too independent in my opinion. Deep Tunnel is already a great tool for harassment, players should at least be good at spreading creep or bring an overlord to a strategic point. I think replacing flying locusts with rapid incubation could be an interesting option here, so they at least don't spam flying locusts into your base from all sides. I can add pressurized glands, but let's recap: standard swarm hosts are like Carrions, primals get HotS swarm hosts, Niadra gets creeper with rapid incubation replacing flying locusts, pressurized glands then should go to Kerrigan and Amon keeps the standard hosts? I think we could settle all swarm host variations this way.
I think it was more efficient to discuss all variations for a single unit type. Now I want to know what you guys think about these ideas for swarm hosts. Are these worth testing?
Imho jumping at units is enough for Raptors to stand unique and interesting. Cliff jumping only makes them gamebreaking, and your suggestion is too similiar to already existing blink Burrow charge might be either costly upgrade of have long recharge time or both
Swarm Hosts... Deep Tunnel is probably fine from pov of game design though sometimes OP. Flying locusts is not smth new, maybe make them slow or poison hit enemies instead? At least someone should get standart SH. And likely not Kerrigan since her brood is about unusual units, right?
Actually now that i think about it, Niadra's creeper strain creep generation can be removed as i think you mentioned before that she would be getting the creep tower nydus thing which would actually make for fun play. Then to compliment this a nice addition would be deep tunneling queens to provide air support and creep tumors cementing the creep play even better, of course with deep tunnel cooldown too. I second your decision on rapid incubation over flying locusts, this would also force Niadra's creepers to better utilize their deep tunnel ability to position creepers. For the cooldown would you set it to LoTV's 43 sec? Bringing it down to 34.4 with rapid incubation. Also the duration of the locusts without flying locust upgrade i think is 10 seconds less. I feel that 34.4 sec is still a long cd especially considering that to use the creeper effectively without flying locust it would need to position itself in a very risky area to maximize its locusts. Releasing 2 locusts per host that can be taken down in about 4 sec each tops would make the creeper's journey a suicidal one if theres no place to retreat to and with deep tunnel in cd. Or maybe im missing something here?
Oh what do you mean by hots swarm host? Are you stating the previous low cd, need to burrow and auto cast on enemy sight one? Kerrigan having the pressurized glands is by itself enough so I dont have much objections on this one, its actually nice. Amon with standard/original hosts is also good, theme wise it fits really well as he's the one with the orig sc1 units.
Hey, I've been playing around with your mod (amped) against the ai and I like it a lot. It's pretty clean in general, but I found some bugs with the infested terran faction.
In the HotS version, the infested zealot upgrade is still available for the hybrid slaves, but the infestor was replaced by the defiler. The infestation pit says something about an infestation specialist, but I don't know where it is in the spawning pool. Also, I know you're concerned with balance, but it'd be great if the hybrids and the infested marines/zealots could scale off upgrades.
@SiarX: Go Yeah, I will keep thinking about Raptors. For Kerrigan's SH I think pressurized glands is enough to make the unit very different, as it provides an extra way to fight air.
@emsez51: Go Yes, Creep Tower + Creeper for an extra creepy combo. I think using Deep Tunnel to reach undefended locations, or using the locusts on defended locations than Deep Tunnel to safety could work. Bu Hots Swarm host I mean the original one with all the stats, lower CD and autocast spawns when burrowed, but I gave it the campaign "root" ability instead of burrow.
@xopietaster: Go Welcome to mapster and to this thread! I am not the author of the amped version so I can't help you with the bugs. By what you said it seems that one is using an outdated version of SC Expanded. The Elite buttons were never meant to be there. I haven't added the infested effect to LotV units yet. Fatties are still very unfinished, maybe I should move them back to test mode. I will check the other things they seem like real bugs from my side.
Kerrigan uses impalers throughout LotV, but she has lurkers in co-op.
http://www.sc2mapster.com/assets/nolanstars-textures/
Be sure to check out the extension mod: Hots Custom Map support on NA and EU, Despite the name it greatly expands the roster of options for the default 3 races and is updated all the way to NCO.
@nolanstar: Go
to say the truth, she have Lurkers in the last mission
@Zarxiel93:
She got impalers when I played, unless blizzard made you get your unit choices from the previous campaign.
EDIT: You get your previous unit choices and upgrades from wol and hots for the epilogue.
http://www.sc2mapster.com/assets/nolanstars-textures/
Be sure to check out the extension mod: Hots Custom Map support on NA and EU, Despite the name it greatly expands the roster of options for the default 3 races and is updated all the way to NCO.
Oh, I didn't know the amped wasn't you, I'll only play the HotS version then. Thanks for the reply :).
I was playing the hybrid slaves and when I chose the baneling strain, I could only make raptors out of my lings.
I don't actually know how the ai in sc2 works, but i noticed that on some mods the elite ai dumbs down a lot, was wondering if the ai can fully utilize sc expanded. :)
@xopietaster: Go It will be fixed in the next update.
@emsez51: Go AI should work properly in SC Expanded and use some of the units from the factions they pick. But I haven't updated them since I added LotV so I can't really tell how they will behave.
Will you add textures for every purifier building?