@geonchodeomi: Go I don't think all selected Vultures should place a mine in the same spot. I think using shift+click is good enough for that, but I'd like to have more opinions on that.
Vultorask explained the problem with protoss tribes, most additions for terran and zerg come from the campaigns. Even in Wings of Liberty zerg had a few things I could add to the mod, but protoss had Scouts, Obelisks (that I used as Shield Batteries) and heroes. Again in Heart of the Swarm terran got more stuff I can add and protoss got that Shuttle ship. I can't solve that until Legacy of the Void. I understand some of the disabled units cause problems, other players have brought that to my attention before, but keep in mind those are the only obvious units I could disable using lore about protoss tribes.
I can't really hope for several new units, because zerg didn't get them in Heart of the Swarm, unless you consider all those evolutions. Some of them are more like upgrades to ladder units, and I'm afraid that's what we will get in LotV.
Awesome mod that you created there Soul. I'll test out your mod or I'll play it in battle.net. Also, I borrowed your dark protoss Dragoon and Observer textures in your mod but I forgot to ask permission to export your textures in the mod. I'll feedback you if there are bugs in your mod:-)
I like to play as the colonists, and I have found that some of their vehicles and units are quite lacking.
APC - WTF am I supposed to do with this unit? DPS is comically low. Not particularly beefy. Are you supposed to load it full of rebels so that they are less vulnerable to area of effect attacks? Are you supposed to put Tauren Marines in it? But 3 Tauren + APC is EXPENSIVE. Like more expensive and more supply than a Thor, which is actually a serious threat, e.g. to mutas. Whatever I do with it, it dies spectacularly quickly to any serious enemy force, and cannot easily be massed due to its large size and short range.
Mohican ATV - another WTF unit. dies REALLY easily, but the attack is much weaker than a hellion where you at least get a line of fire to roast and toast some lings, and you can get blue flame. For worker harassment, hellbats are much better. For fighting serious battles, pretty much any other unit in the game is better.
Maybe buff the APC's health to like 400 and slightly increase its cost to 225 minerals as well as a +2 transport capacity? That way it would at least be more feasible to mass, because for a given amount of health the size of the unit group/ball would be smaller.
As for the mohican, if it's a piece of turd, it should at least be cheap and quick to build, e.g. 75 minerals instead of 100.
@Hammer107: Go Feel free do use them, just remember that I use several assets made by other community members, so make sure to give credit to the right authors. I'll be waiting for you report.
@ColonistLover: Go Thank you, and welcome to mapster. Some of the Colonist units were added very early to this mod, and back then I knew (and cared) a lot less about balance than I do now. I haven't been testing balance issues myself so I rely on players' feedback to plan changes, so I'm glad you took the time to post here. I will add some balance changes to my list. To be honest I think the Mohican should be removed and let Colonists use the Hellion/Vulture like everybody else.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention, I hope to hear more from you soon.
ghost nova (and tosh, I don't know) has broken the game. a ghost with 200health, 3tier upgrades (4 armour), high damage attack that can cloak, take over a unit, and be called down anywhere on the map near mineral lines...was any thought given into this? and this was mentioned...somewhere is the past posts if your looking for a date. you say that call downs for units was never used because they could be dropped on minerial lines but you have this, and I think this also goes the same with tosh (didn't check) . I finial get a team game going and 6mins into the game I get a nova drop and being protoss it's gg...except its not.
@ColonistLover: Go You can test it offline and then change unit stats in the editor, or if you really want it, make your own extension mod that uses mine as a dependency. I've considered tester maps before but I haven't checked how they work exactly to see if it would be fast and easy to support them. Maybe a test mode could be an option.
@FreezingAcidRain: Go That kind of broken? I was thinking about game breaking bugs, not balance issues. As I said most of these OP units were added early when I didn't give balance much thought, and I have to fix them as players report. I will check and tone them down for the next update.
Yeah I did some tests. APC with 3 Tauren marines inside costs:
150/75 for APC
125/25
125/25
125/25
for 3 tauren marines
Total = 525/150
But it still loses a fight to a Thor, which costs 300/200.
I think the APC needs more health, like 350 or even 400, and maybe capacity 6 base with the capacity upgrade taking it to 10. Then it could cost more - say 200/100, and you would have a unit that could compete with Thor for your factory build, and you would mitigate the huge size of the APC because it would have almost double the health and double the DPS per unit area.
I like the idea of the Mohican ATV as it adds something unique to the colonists, Definitely needs a buff or a cost decrease or a speed increase or something, though.
Also the salvage ability on rebels REALLY needs a buff. Getting a rebel to proc the salvage buff is really hard, and the rebel dies really easily. So the buff should be pretty good. I would say either: (a) a big health buff or (b) a decent damage buff. Or make the buff easier to proc, e.g. when an enemy dies, all rebels within a certain area have a chance of getting the buff.
@ColonistLover: Go I'd rather make the APC cost less. Colonists are supposed to employ cheaper units than military groups. I'm thinking about balancing it around 125/75 and maybe reducing supply cost to 1. Remember that if you order APCs to attack and units inside have a shorter range only the APC will attack, so giving it a longer range may actually hurt the unit instead of helping it, so a damage buff is better.
Mohicans won't be able to compete with Hellions/Hellbats or Vultures + Spider Mines in versatility, even if I buff unit stats to make it a worthy unit. Colonist mech composition is already hurt, I can't even think how players have been using them like this for so long.
"I'm thinking about balancing it around 125/75 and maybe reducing supply cost to 1"
I spent a few hours getting the map editor working with your mod and I played some tests.
One discovery I made is that the APC + rebels inside dies HORRIBLY to zerglings on an equal cost basis, whether it's 125/75 or 150/75. This is problematic because the siege tank was the counter to mass lings. APC + rebels trades roughly evenly against roaches of equal resource, but rebels on their own do even better. APC + rebels inside trades evenly against marines and loses against zealots. Versus all of these enemies, you are better off building straight rebels and forgetting about the APCs.
When balancing the APC, we need to ask: What does it achieve? If I'm playing standard Terran, I build tanks for defence and slow pushing the enemy. Tanks counter zerglings and banelings and marines very well, as well as most other ground units when the numbers get large. If I'm playing as the colonists, I don't have tanks. My base is hard to defend because of that. I have no source of splash damage apart from mines and planetary fortresses.
What do APCs give me? At the moment, they just die to zerglings, and they don't really counter anything very well. They're also REALLY big and therefore unwieldy.
One possible solution is to allow the rebels to use Firebats. When I play the other terran factions I ALWAYS choose Marauders, so it would be kind of cool to allow the rebels just Firebats. If you load an APC up with 4 rebels and 1 firebat, it suddenly becomes a lot more survivable vs zerglings because of the splash damage.
Another option would be to increase the armour of the APC. Giving it armour 3 means it is actually worthwhile putting rebels inside one when fighting against marines and zerglings. As a way of compensating for this increased survivability, the movement speed of the APC would need to be reduced, otherwise you could just drive them up to the enemy base and win way too easily. Make them really slow, and perhaps increase the range of their autocannon so they don't get kited too easily. Movement speed 1 seemed to work for me.
The APC isn't really supposed to be compared to the Medivac though. The Medivac is for drops and healing. The APC is for front-line fighting. It is more comparable to a Tank or a Roach.
@ColonistLover: Go Thank you for the input. Right what I have changed is cost reduction 125/75, life increase to 250 and armor to 2. I think giving it 3 armor is too much, life can be tweaked to make it a worthy unit with 2 armor.
It isn't that big actually, it has the same unit size of siege tanks, I think the difference is that tanks compensate that with better range. Would you mind make a few tests using these stats?
22 ordinary zerglings versus 2 APCs with 4 rebels each is a close fight now. The lings win with about 5-6 surviving lings if they can surround both APCs.
I doubled the size of the fight to 44 ordinary zerglings versus 4 APCs with 4 rebels each. The colonists lost 2 APCs with the other two severely damaged, but the zerglings couldn't take out the other two APCs before they died, so victory to the colonists.
Versus a mixed roach/ling force, it was much more one sided and the colonists won handily, with 2 undamaged APCs and a few crew surviving.
@ColonistLover: Go Ok, so I think I'll go with these stats by now. I want to update it so I can remove the ability to drop Nova and Tosh at the rally target point.
EDIT: mod updated with APC, Nova and Tosh balance tweaks.
Nice work. Will the update be live on Battle.net now?
Regarding the mohican ATV, I still think it could be saved. Maybe just make it cost 75 minerals. I would totally buy it for 75, it's like a vulture but with AOE and more HP instead of speed and spider mines.
A few other things I noticed:
- The Cerberus for the Kel Morian Combine perhaps needs a slight damage buff, it currently loses versus a battlecruiser, and Yamato is better than electric field. Maybe increase the attack to 14?
- The Laserdrill tank is a cool idea but I suspect it is outclassed by the ordinary siege tank. It seems that equal cost of siege tank does better vs ultralisks than Laserdrill tanks. This is a bit WTF because the laserdrill is supposed to specialize in killing massive units!
- The D-8 charge upgrade for reapers is really good and I feel that it should belong to Tosh's pirates. The Mercs already have a lot of good units from the Merc compound. Tosh's Pirates currently suck because nothing they have is any better than vanilla terran.
- Spec ops dropship is an unattractive proposition, especially when you need to do research to make it stealthed... but this is more a matter of opinion.
- Some Terran faction should get predators, but please make them cheap, e.g. 100/25/2 or 100/0/3. I'm not sure who though... Lore wise the Mercs should get them, but I feel the Mercenaries are already the second best or best Terran faction. Maybe give predators to the Umojan Protectorate, who might benefit from having a unique unit?
- WTF do I use a bunker monster for? It seems really underpowered considering it's inconveniently large size and slow speed. Needs a DPS buff I think.
Is there a public record of all the units in SC expanded with their costs and stats anywhere?
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@geonchodeomi: Go I don't think all selected Vultures should place a mine in the same spot. I think using shift+click is good enough for that, but I'd like to have more opinions on that.
Vultorask explained the problem with protoss tribes, most additions for terran and zerg come from the campaigns. Even in Wings of Liberty zerg had a few things I could add to the mod, but protoss had Scouts, Obelisks (that I used as Shield Batteries) and heroes. Again in Heart of the Swarm terran got more stuff I can add and protoss got that Shuttle ship. I can't solve that until Legacy of the Void. I understand some of the disabled units cause problems, other players have brought that to my attention before, but keep in mind those are the only obvious units I could disable using lore about protoss tribes.
I can't really hope for several new units, because zerg didn't get them in Heart of the Swarm, unless you consider all those evolutions. Some of them are more like upgrades to ladder units, and I'm afraid that's what we will get in LotV.
btw, there is any community about this expanded mod?, it is hard to find opponent who do well in this mod
@geonchodeomi: Go There's a battlenet group on NA, and I think on EU too. I don't think there is one for the Korean server.
@SoulFilcher:
Awesome mod that you created there Soul. I'll test out your mod or I'll play it in battle.net. Also, I borrowed your dark protoss Dragoon and Observer textures in your mod but I forgot to ask permission to export your textures in the mod. I'll feedback you if there are bugs in your mod:-)
Visit my projects in this links: Hammer's Assets, Protoss Factions Units ,Terran Organization Units
GREAT mod here, have really enjoyed playing it.
I like to play as the colonists, and I have found that some of their vehicles and units are quite lacking.
APC - WTF am I supposed to do with this unit? DPS is comically low. Not particularly beefy. Are you supposed to load it full of rebels so that they are less vulnerable to area of effect attacks? Are you supposed to put Tauren Marines in it? But 3 Tauren + APC is EXPENSIVE. Like more expensive and more supply than a Thor, which is actually a serious threat, e.g. to mutas. Whatever I do with it, it dies spectacularly quickly to any serious enemy force, and cannot easily be massed due to its large size and short range.
Mohican ATV - another WTF unit. dies REALLY easily, but the attack is much weaker than a hellion where you at least get a line of fire to roast and toast some lings, and you can get blue flame. For worker harassment, hellbats are much better. For fighting serious battles, pretty much any other unit in the game is better.
Maybe buff the APC's health to like 400 and slightly increase its cost to 225 minerals as well as a +2 transport capacity? That way it would at least be more feasible to mass, because for a given amount of health the size of the unit group/ball would be smaller.
As for the mohican, if it's a piece of turd, it should at least be cheap and quick to build, e.g. 75 minerals instead of 100.
@Hammer107: Go Feel free do use them, just remember that I use several assets made by other community members, so make sure to give credit to the right authors. I'll be waiting for you report.
@ColonistLover: Go Thank you, and welcome to mapster. Some of the Colonist units were added very early to this mod, and back then I knew (and cared) a lot less about balance than I do now. I haven't been testing balance issues myself so I rely on players' feedback to plan changes, so I'm glad you took the time to post here. I will add some balance changes to my list. To be honest I think the Mohican should be removed and let Colonists use the Hellion/Vulture like everybody else.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention, I hope to hear more from you soon.
Thanks again for your work on this great mod, Soulfilcher.
Is it possible for me to mod some game file to implement a HP change or mineral/gas cost change on a unit?
Is there some way to make SC expanded work with a unit tester map so that things can be tested easily?
@ColonistLover: Go
can you play this mod?? i need who play this mod with
@geonchodeomi: Go
Yes, I play. I have only ever played vs the AI and I am in Bronze league for vanilla Starcraft. What's your battle.net ID?
ghost nova (and tosh, I don't know) has broken the game. a ghost with 200health, 3tier upgrades (4 armour), high damage attack that can cloak, take over a unit, and be called down anywhere on the map near mineral lines...was any thought given into this? and this was mentioned...somewhere is the past posts if your looking for a date. you say that call downs for units was never used because they could be dropped on minerial lines but you have this, and I think this also goes the same with tosh (didn't check) . I finial get a team game going and 6mins into the game I get a nova drop and being protoss it's gg...except its not.
@ColonistLover: Go You can test it offline and then change unit stats in the editor, or if you really want it, make your own extension mod that uses mine as a dependency. I've considered tester maps before but I haven't checked how they work exactly to see if it would be fast and easy to support them. Maybe a test mode could be an option.
@FreezingAcidRain: Go That kind of broken? I was thinking about game breaking bugs, not balance issues. As I said most of these OP units were added early when I didn't give balance much thought, and I have to fix them as players report. I will check and tone them down for the next update.
@SoulFilcher: Go
Yeah I did some tests. APC with 3 Tauren marines inside costs:
150/75 for APC
125/25 125/25 125/25 for 3 tauren marines
Total = 525/150
But it still loses a fight to a Thor, which costs 300/200.
I think the APC needs more health, like 350 or even 400, and maybe capacity 6 base with the capacity upgrade taking it to 10. Then it could cost more - say 200/100, and you would have a unit that could compete with Thor for your factory build, and you would mitigate the huge size of the APC because it would have almost double the health and double the DPS per unit area.
I like the idea of the Mohican ATV as it adds something unique to the colonists, Definitely needs a buff or a cost decrease or a speed increase or something, though.
Also the salvage ability on rebels REALLY needs a buff. Getting a rebel to proc the salvage buff is really hard, and the rebel dies really easily. So the buff should be pretty good. I would say either: (a) a big health buff or (b) a decent damage buff. Or make the buff easier to proc, e.g. when an enemy dies, all rebels within a certain area have a chance of getting the buff.
@ColonistLover: Go I'd rather make the APC cost less. Colonists are supposed to employ cheaper units than military groups. I'm thinking about balancing it around 125/75 and maybe reducing supply cost to 1. Remember that if you order APCs to attack and units inside have a shorter range only the APC will attack, so giving it a longer range may actually hurt the unit instead of helping it, so a damage buff is better.
Mohicans won't be able to compete with Hellions/Hellbats or Vultures + Spider Mines in versatility, even if I buff unit stats to make it a worthy unit. Colonist mech composition is already hurt, I can't even think how players have been using them like this for so long.
APC has no advantage than medivac. medivac can load more unit, has more speed and cheap. i think unit inside APC should attack like bunker
@SoulFilcher: Go
"I'm thinking about balancing it around 125/75 and maybe reducing supply cost to 1"
I spent a few hours getting the map editor working with your mod and I played some tests.
One discovery I made is that the APC + rebels inside dies HORRIBLY to zerglings on an equal cost basis, whether it's 125/75 or 150/75. This is problematic because the siege tank was the counter to mass lings. APC + rebels trades roughly evenly against roaches of equal resource, but rebels on their own do even better. APC + rebels inside trades evenly against marines and loses against zealots. Versus all of these enemies, you are better off building straight rebels and forgetting about the APCs.
When balancing the APC, we need to ask: What does it achieve? If I'm playing standard Terran, I build tanks for defence and slow pushing the enemy. Tanks counter zerglings and banelings and marines very well, as well as most other ground units when the numbers get large. If I'm playing as the colonists, I don't have tanks. My base is hard to defend because of that. I have no source of splash damage apart from mines and planetary fortresses.
What do APCs give me? At the moment, they just die to zerglings, and they don't really counter anything very well. They're also REALLY big and therefore unwieldy.
One possible solution is to allow the rebels to use Firebats. When I play the other terran factions I ALWAYS choose Marauders, so it would be kind of cool to allow the rebels just Firebats. If you load an APC up with 4 rebels and 1 firebat, it suddenly becomes a lot more survivable vs zerglings because of the splash damage.
Another option would be to increase the armour of the APC. Giving it armour 3 means it is actually worthwhile putting rebels inside one when fighting against marines and zerglings. As a way of compensating for this increased survivability, the movement speed of the APC would need to be reduced, otherwise you could just drive them up to the enemy base and win way too easily. Make them really slow, and perhaps increase the range of their autocannon so they don't get kited too easily. Movement speed 1 seemed to work for me.
@geonchodeomi: Go
The APC isn't really supposed to be compared to the Medivac though. The Medivac is for drops and healing. The APC is for front-line fighting. It is more comparable to a Tank or a Roach.
@ColonistLover: Go Thank you for the input. Right what I have changed is cost reduction 125/75, life increase to 250 and armor to 2. I think giving it 3 armor is too much, life can be tweaked to make it a worthy unit with 2 armor.
It isn't that big actually, it has the same unit size of siege tanks, I think the difference is that tanks compensate that with better range. Would you mind make a few tests using these stats?
@SoulFilcher: Go
22 ordinary zerglings versus 2 APCs with 4 rebels each is a close fight now. The lings win with about 5-6 surviving lings if they can surround both APCs.
I doubled the size of the fight to 44 ordinary zerglings versus 4 APCs with 4 rebels each. The colonists lost 2 APCs with the other two severely damaged, but the zerglings couldn't take out the other two APCs before they died, so victory to the colonists.
Versus a mixed roach/ling force, it was much more one sided and the colonists won handily, with 2 undamaged APCs and a few crew surviving.
@ColonistLover: Go Ok, so I think I'll go with these stats by now. I want to update it so I can remove the ability to drop Nova and Tosh at the rally target point.
EDIT: mod updated with APC, Nova and Tosh balance tweaks.
@SoulFilcher: Go
Nice work. Will the update be live on Battle.net now?
Regarding the mohican ATV, I still think it could be saved. Maybe just make it cost 75 minerals. I would totally buy it for 75, it's like a vulture but with AOE and more HP instead of speed and spider mines.
A few other things I noticed:
- The Cerberus for the Kel Morian Combine perhaps needs a slight damage buff, it currently loses versus a battlecruiser, and Yamato is better than electric field. Maybe increase the attack to 14?
- The Laserdrill tank is a cool idea but I suspect it is outclassed by the ordinary siege tank. It seems that equal cost of siege tank does better vs ultralisks than Laserdrill tanks. This is a bit WTF because the laserdrill is supposed to specialize in killing massive units!
- The D-8 charge upgrade for reapers is really good and I feel that it should belong to Tosh's pirates. The Mercs already have a lot of good units from the Merc compound. Tosh's Pirates currently suck because nothing they have is any better than vanilla terran.
- Spec ops dropship is an unattractive proposition, especially when you need to do research to make it stealthed... but this is more a matter of opinion.
- Some Terran faction should get predators, but please make them cheap, e.g. 100/25/2 or 100/0/3. I'm not sure who though... Lore wise the Mercs should get them, but I feel the Mercenaries are already the second best or best Terran faction. Maybe give predators to the Umojan Protectorate, who might benefit from having a unique unit?
- WTF do I use a bunker monster for? It seems really underpowered considering it's inconveniently large size and slow speed. Needs a DPS buff I think.
Is there a public record of all the units in SC expanded with their costs and stats anywhere?