All i've done past 3 games and won each one in a row is just go mass rine. Rines are better tanking units than zerglings atm beuase of health upgrades as well as damage they putout makes them better than any unit. 50 extra health right off the bat as well as 15 damage. Now for a little calculation to show you why its op.
10 rines vs 2 ling
10rine=15damagex10=150 damage a hit. micro a little and even without micro lings instantly toast. Also you get more gas for using rines to kill lings than you would get becuase your also going to instantly win the battle. Siege is absolutley useless beucase of going quickrines you capture more territory and the unit output is alot better.
Next about rines being OP.
Health upgrades-
Calculation-1 health upgrade
5 rines- 50 health+if enough gas 250 health=300health
1ling- 10health
With a littlemicro and using the units right the rines also do more output on siegetank. For example when the game starts off and you get the gas, the 3 rines will almost = a ling. so 3minerals=5 minerals and will have more damage with the rines.
Another thing, GAS becomes useless. I heard your adding a conversion system but also why not have it so for getting gas, you can upgrade your higher tech units at a less cost by using gas, or make gas a requirement for upgrading base units after a certain level, lets say 5 so that the units dont become instant op.
Im not even sure where to start... im sure ur getting sick of reading all these posts as i am..
So ill Try TO keep It Brief And Round It all up simply. I will Try to take into account everything that was
said Thus Far and then bring forth a few of My own Ideas..
Let's start with saying This map is amazing... and i love it ;'Thank You so much. For Remaking it.
and Second - Im an experienced Risk Player From Sc 1 , Participating in many map tests For RISK
- I Guess well Start with Choke Points.. I like the New update Muchly.. But i Disagree with a few Locations.. Starting with
1. Sa Chokes , And Scandinavia chokes espically south side needing almost an extension and west side needing to be safer
as to be a Fall - Back Zone/Location For a Greenland Push, which brings me to..
2. Greenland Chokes Especially the Part that used TO Overhange Iceland.. I think people really enjoyed that and We Should,
that is, people would like to see that brought back. kinda like .. the Zone North of Japan.
3. Zone North of Japan Used to be a dip like Scandinavia.. a big dip.. I would like to see that again where you are able to FIRE ATTACKS w/ TANKS
at the back of the island (Japan) + apply Pressure To Rines (hiding behind tank lines). Not able to hit the city itself.. Just the island's land mass Behind the city.. leading into the ocean. Also This Dip would be used to advance On Top Right City Kamtchi Or watever its called; to Fortify Postion Before proceeding a Progressive assault Onto Alaska, But back to Japan.. That Zone South of Kamtchi the Dip used to be more left and able to fire at Japan.. Which Brings me to my Next Location.. This is an important one..
4.Japan Used to not link north.. UseD to Go north then link west.. so u could Use That DIP To Fire at the north side.. And Japan Had To Run ARound a Big Land Mass to Get to You.. So What im saying is I think Japan Should Be Enlarged into the ocean more with Appropriate Styled Chokes. Let's Not Forget Japan Is A Full Fortified island Throughout History and Should Be the Most Advantageous Location on map.. I'm Not necessarily saying To Give it a Money Or Capital City Bonus.. *(although that's an idea) , im Just saying that LET US NOT FORGET That Japan Is an Island.. and Madagascar for that matter1* Back to the Point.. Japan now could use the northern location.. (Im sorry i dont have screen shot) use the northern location of island to seige forward and then move around land mass towards that DIP.. As well as asia.. moving towards Japan.. And Japan Could Really Do sick Shit.. WIth those drop ships. and Really Force a truce on aussie. So aussie is like sure lets make a temporary deal.. while we work this it.. It Adds DIPLOMACY TO THE GAME,.,. and if i remember correctly In the original risk handbook, that was 33% of the First paragraph Explaining the Sections to come. anywayz ( sorry Not trying to get rude ) just getting Hyped up just a little bit* Japan now is Like Listen.. Im a Nation TO be Considered.. As well as
5. Madagascar.. South america, Aussie.. Scandinavia Top Left cities in (NA; Britsh Columbia, Alaska , And NWT.) , Greenland, Florida (at times),Etc.
They were Called Advantageous Locations.. or Vantage Locations It Talks a lot About it in War Books based off The RISK Era Also.
II) I
<<quote 1204484>>
Hello new Article, Welcome and Based Off My Friends Findings.. And considerable testing.. And assuming The Speed for Ling RinE Tanks Is same as Sc 1 Original.. We should Not have a problem here and u should love the new settings.. Please give it a shot With me Before You Knock it.. Please.. Because it does fall into Proper and appropriate placing. opening a whole new venue of options and opportunities. which i will get into such as micro and such. Thank You + Enjoy!
Rine Starting attack 7 Armor 0
Ling Starting Attack 11 Armor 0
Tanks starting attack. In Regular 85, in Seige 130 :) trust me its perfect starting settings try it without upgrades First =) Also,..
starting Minerals I believe should be adjusted based off new settings to 11 Minerals Rather than 9 . should also be able to buy tank off start in my opinion. if u feel like taking japan and turtling.. thats up to u.. Which brings me to map design and layout.. im seeing almost No.. I repeat little to no chokes.. like japan.. i kinda wish japan was a capital city that gave u a +2 bonus each round but thats another topic for another day.. i have amazing ideas on capital citys for risk.. i own every risk board game ive seen.. (pysical Cop8ies) I* think vantage locations are an important part of the game =) hehe
Next I also think a mild buff should occur to the Rebellion starting with 3 minerals per round.. even after death.. and i think u should get 3 ghosts and i think the ghosts should be able to use some sort of special ability such as lockdown from sc 1 to create a problem for tanks or gols..
Thank You very Much For Your Time we Much Appreciate it... *on behalf of Risk Lovers annonymous :)
ps. The lowering Of the the Damge will fix the cannon issue.. After the Cannon issue and the upgrades should fall into place also fixing the issue with early game tanks being of use now.. cause cannons will be/being so strong will forcibly put everyon into one tank 20 rines.. to conquer a continent feeling much more like the board game bringing me back to my original point of micro being increased dramatically. nice? do u like so far.. im not quite finished hehe. and because goliaths is your thing and being OP as it is.. You'll have to adust that accordingly =) tone them down also or whatever to integrate in with my 7 -11 85/130 combo/perfected mathematics... do it mathematically it works out perfectly paper rocks scissors, if u work it out.. and it even adjusts for chokes mid game and late game.. just working in your upgrades.. will be perfection . so if u'd Like i can do the math on the Goliaths at a later point.. perfecting them also.. but as i stated.. thats yur department i dont like that stupid unit lolz. although great for late game lack of room and space and handling chokes :) / turrtles* over population of units also.
and can we change the channel name to like elite riskers united or something more attractive so i can get people hanging there.. have like 5 people in there at all hours.. for games and challenges. That way we can start to create a really good community Another thing u wont have units instantly dying leaving much more room for micro off of the start.. cause of lower attacks.. and ull really be able to feel the upgrades this way.;.. msg me let me know.
<<quote 1204484>>
Rine Starting attack 7 Armor 0
Ling Starting Attack 11 Armor 0
Tanks starting attack. In Regular 85, in Seige 130 :) trust me its perfect starting settings try it without upgrades First =) Also,..
starting Minerals I believe should be adjusted based off new settings to 11 Minerals Rather than 9 . should also be able to buy tank off start in my opinion. <</quote>>
1. i Very Much Agree With this Quote I read From Quan Li. For the Most part.. Im just not Sure If his 7 11 Combo Or the 9 11 combo would work Best When You Bring into consideration the upgrade System That's In Place.. *which im very happy with, From that perspective.. i would Reconsider trying 7 but I think the 911 combo might work better with yur Upgrade system which is starting to feel like perfection.
2. i Definately do not Agree with starting minerals at 11.. I think it Should be Higher As is Board game.. Id SSuggest 13 starting Personally.. And High Cannon Output Is Apreciated under this setting. To Counter the tank.
Now there has Been some talks In the RISK Channel ON Bnet. About Stim Needing to removed Along with Speed Lings.. I agree with this Under the Condition OF adding Adrenal Back for lings... It would feel much slower paced like board game.. Im not sure about removing stim tho.. i like it as is with a 20 Percent Removing.. But speed Lings iz Necessary to Remove.. I definately Do Not Agree with it. now that you have charge Lings.. I like that a Lot Better.. Amazing Addition To Map. ^_^
You know What Im so Sorry Guys.. That was Everything.. =p.. i Guess that was everything Sorry It Took So Long.. Tried Not to Do iT. N e W a Y z. Just Wanted To say I FuckinG Love Your Map and the work that You Guys (including the community) has Put into It.. Congradulations..
I think we will have a following in The Channel: RISK
Many People in there Debating risk Every Day Now.. So ALl Stay Tuned And Check It Out
Ps. Im Not Trying to Diss your map in any way.. I just Think Adjustments would support the Movement~ of The Community Im actually Really Excited About this Map It bRings me to Reminisce on the Good TiMeZ i had Playing this Game (sc1) and Board Game As a Youth .. :)
Thanks SO Much For Having This Function Available To us I think I speak For All of Us When i Say that. Later Dudes.. Ill keep an eye on the updates and let u know.. Keep me posted.
Hey Guys.. Nice Lobby You Guys Got a Good Lobby Going On Here.. Very GOod To SEe.. Been Waiting a few years just to play
this map again.. Love it.. and with that said.. I have A Lot OF Ideas.. But as I can See this Map Being In the Infant Stages still, i'll
try To Stay On Topic To the Forum .. Thanks 4 Your-Time. ...
To address My View On the initial Starting attacks That was Posted On Page 2. I Find this topic really Interesting..
and only Testing will tell for sure.. But Here it Goes
The 7-11 Combo Phrase. Very Good Combo But I
Think For The upgrade System* on This Map. The 911 Sytem is Just a Stupid idea. The Math is NOT Right.. But Its still Better than The Current
And i Really think its too durastic of a change for This map at this this Stage.. So according my my Calculations This Would be Much More
appropriate> ^_^ < Rines Marines Attack Should Be 9 Off Begginning.
< Lings Attack Should Be 14 Off Begginning.
>Tanks Will Be determined later.. I think they are appropriate at current . possibly need to Be Lowered as Afformentioned.
This Will Be The Perfect settings to give rines vs lings and = balance Off start. but Mid Game After Achieving 1 Continent, Rines will start to
Open up.+ gain the advantage , Then suddenly as someone achieves their Second Continent.. Lings Will steal the advantage Back with
hit and runs on smaller Game uh.. Smaller Groups* so Late Game Lings WIll Have a strong advantage. Which shows Progression through the aGes +
i like that feel to it.
mental note (which reminds me to bring up the starting minerals next and how the game should Feel and Progress)
So yah Back to what i was saying.. It will have a very Paper Rock Scissor feel To it with these settings and leave much more room for micro and land advantages to sway the tide of balance. For example Rines And lings will Basically Tie Off start without the Cannons.. Leading to defensive Cannon Tie dice Like board Game.. Defender will win tie. :) But if The Guy Micros his marines he will Win with a clear advantage .. But if the
Marines are NOT micro'd at all.. The Lings will win,just.. But it all changes after u group 20 or 30 rines against pure lings.. and Lings Will Own Tanks at this settings Except in tight choke POints.. of course.. Tanks will own lings also if u upgrade them and hide behind chokes but in general a smart linger will always win. forcing the guy to add rines to his tank army etc etc..tanks WIll Own Rines.. But not 10 rines vs 1 tank in openField.. it would have to be 3 tanks behind choke with 10 rines will RAPE 50 rines But in open field The rines will still win.. especiallyt iif they can surround in say asia.; so again its balanced but slightly favored in one direction if used properly its about a 71 - 73 % difference on the Paper Rock Scissors advantage.
Again its a paper rock scissor feel every time with a pro being able to gain the advantage with all unit types.. even equally building all unit types. so its all balanced this is how it looks
Marines > Lings > Tanks > Marines etc etc..
And to Be Fair to the People That have Already Gotten used the Maps Particular (Style/Feel) + Enjoy it i Would Personally Suggest
These statistics First So as Not To Jump Too Far Ahead Of ourselves .. and maybe Get some Feedback On it. They are such as follows,
MARINE - 11 Starting attack Rather Than 15
ZERGLiNG - 17 Starting attack Rather Than 25
ARTiLeRRy - TBD i'll Let You Have Fun w/ That :P ps. Love the New Tank AOE up GOod Job. On that Note;
And Actually Its the Perfect settings cause the math is nearly the same as yours + You
shouldnt need to adjust tanks much after that . slight boost Most Likely, Which im Sure
can Be addressed Later with all the Imput From the FORUM.
Please Remove i Gotta Agree With An Earliar Post about well Here.
[RISKOFENIGMA]QUOTE
Now there has Been some talks In the RISK Channel ON Bnet. About Stim Needing to removed Along with Speed Lings.. I agree with this Under the Condition OF adding Adrenal Back for lings... It would feel much slower paced like board game.. Im not sure about removing stim tho.. i like it as is with a 20 Percent Removing.. But speed Lings iz Necessary to Remove.. I definately Do Not Agree with it. now that you have charge Lings.. I like that a Lot Better.. Amazing Addition To Map. ^_^ [END-QUOTE]
About Remove Stim And Speed Lings And Yes Add Adrenaline But i Would
Really like to See Ranged Rines Come back at +1 or +2.. This would really
Slow the Game Back Down To its ROOTS, Yet still with the
High-Paced Real-Time Rate This Game Has Grown Accustomed To.
I Really agree that this would be much better for instance.. In the case of rines.. Are u gonna suicide stim into a pack of men so u can get the shots off on
a choke pointOr are You Going to get a Range upgrade.. And move in and suround him with the use of ling/rine.. You be the Judge of that.
New tank upgrade perfectly counters rine upgrade. for armor health. Range UPgrade will also help counter thrusting Lings or Hoover lings or whatever those cool little things are called.. excellent job on that upgrade too. Lings with adrenal thrust will be powerful and will fall in together hand in hand. i just
really dont think speed lings are necessary and a few have ssaid the same. This would also open up other avenues also such as;
changing agression to include how many cities u captured in a round. rather than just kills for example. Would Also Make People think twice about moving there troops too far from home. cause they cant stim run home like gods. Overall i think Microing Would Be More possible this way as well as Macro.
]
One Last thing i forgot to Mention.. because of all The Micro Talk.. Starting Minerals - 14 would be My More Fair if You Decide to lower settings down. a bit Please. Beacause this way cannons will eat yur rines faster based off enemy rines Lines*surviving slightly longer.. Meaning we need more rines to battle cannon fire.. also It would open the door way for 2 lings 4 rines.. healing Lings*from cannon fire. and then retreating and waiting to take the next cannon with other ling.. Also u could buy 1 tank and slowly seige up.. maybe 15 minerals so u can get one ling one tank.. but i think that would be OP.. Tell me what u think ;) 14 is perfect . As Far as cannon output is concerned currently I
Like the High Output but think it should be increased further vs light lightly and vs heavy dramatically. to combat retard units like goliaths.. Seriously Oh yah Shit I saw a guy Today win with sa and we all had continents .. all h e had was 3goliaths and a science vessel.. really pissed me off.. Goliaths are heavily OPwith sci vessel so you need to either weaken goliaths slightly or more preferably nerf vessels like other guy said by charging cost of unit to repair divided by two or by making it so energy has to recharge slowly so u cant just use it indefinately on goliaths.. Also i think a new ability should be added to sci vessel.. just not sure what something cool like Broodlings or emp or something .. think about it.. Or ensnare like it sc 1 to use on lings lolz.
Sci Vessel Should In my opinion use Energy Te Repair bio.. A limited amount.. and then Charge half the cost of unit for mech.. :) that way you could repair yur men from cannon or tank fire for free but u have to micro to do itand you cant lose too much health cause u have to charge your energy. and then u have minerals to pay for goliath repairs if you want to use that brand new unit so bad with full healthyoushould have to purchase it.Or at least. pay for the Repairs. like it Naturally should flow. would be much more realizstic and macro/micro intensive.
Is it possible To Make cannons effect armored units or just rines or lings seperately to rest? or to even have a Cannon Upgrade? like 25 gas upgrades cannons or something.. just some cool ideas. broodling a tank or an anti tank unit or spell would be awesome with the sci vessel
I disagree, Booleeas- I think very powerful tanks are a great thing, giving people who have fewer resources a chance not to be immediately eliminated. It also opens up way more strategies- for example, in the late game, you can use dropships to drop marines onto the tanks and kill them with their splash.
Goliaths also are still not useless- for tank lines with 4 or fewer tanks, goliaths decimate them.
The only truly unstoppable combination right now, imo, is if someone has 8+ tanks with 2+ goliaths to shoot down dropships, and that is simply just not affordable at every choke in a game that is still competitive.
Nice to see all the feedback, since there are a few issues I see coming up in a few different posts I'll be addressing those in topics.
1) Damage Numbers for Units
I've noticed that one topic that keeps coming up is that of the numbering system regarding Marine and Zergling damage, it seems that a lot of the posts are talking about reducing that damage and tank damage, from the current 15,25, and 75/150 to something like 11,17 and 85. Now this is a fine idea and I will consider implementing it but I have noticed that it doesn't take unit Hp into account and it also doesn't specify how Goliaths would be handled. Reducing unit damage without reducing unit Hp would make units like tanks and Goliaths even harder to kill. Now as far as the idea itself I think I might have a solution to the issue but I will need to have a lot of feedback on it before I proceed.
The idea I was thinking about implementing was a voting system at the beginning of game that would allow player to choose different modes. This would make it possible to keep the current system that is already in place and then also include another system that would be the adjusted damage and such. Now if I choose to implement this it would result in having to vote at the start of the game for the mode the players want to play, and it would take some time to implement but it is possible so I would like to here some feedback of what you guy think about it.
2) Science Vessels and Goliaths
I have very recently nerfed Science Vessel healing rate as an attempt to hotfix the problem but I will most likely go with a similar approach to this post below in the next patch.
Sci Vessel Should In my opinion use Energy Te Repair bio.. A limited amount.. and then Charge half the cost of unit for mech.. :) that way you could repair yur men from cannon or tank fire for free but u have to micro to do itand you cant lose too much health cause u have to charge your energy. and then u have minerals to pay for goliath repairs if you want to use that brand new unit so bad with full healthyoushould have to purchase it.Or at least. pay for the Repairs. like it Naturally should flow. would be much more realizstic and macro/micro intensive.
3) Adding Chokes
Now I did end up adding a number of chokes after some of the posts on chokes came up. So how does everyone feel about the new chokes?
4) Stim and Speed Ling Upgrade Removal
This could also be fixed if I decide to create another mode to the game that players could choose at the start. As it is right now I'm not going to remove Stim or Speed Lings but I can nerf those abilities instead until they are in a good spot. I did increase Stims health cost to Marines and one of the reasons I really don't want to remove speed lings is because with the recent tank upgrade they really need to be able to get on top of tanks fast in order to counter them. But if I get enough feedback on these abilities I will consider adjusting them.
5) Marines OP
I hope that with the new Tank upgrade all Marines wont be as OP, feedback on this would be appreciated.
6) Increase Starting Minerals
This is another one of those things that I could add to another mode but for the current mode I really don't want to see players build a tank in the first round. I think that it would result in to much camping in the first round and I want the first round to be more exciting for new players and not turn into a stalemate quickly.
7) Gas, too Much of it, Nothing to do with it...
I am currently implementing a conversion system of gas to mineral, the only thing that is holding me up is the conversion rate. Right now I was thinking of going with 25 gas will get you 50 minerals and you will only be able to buy minerals when you at least have 25 gas. This would be so players that decide to save their gas for upgrades aren't penalized for saving while other players just convert their gas to minerals early game.
8) Tanks OP with the New Upgrade
Tanks needed to get a buff because they are a great counter to Marines, and Marines were very strong without Tanks to blow them away. I think the new upgrade gives players more options as far as playstyle. If Marines are nerfed then I will probably nerf the Tank upgrade to keep them even but right now I think tanks are in a good spot.
9) Cannon Damage Output
I actually saw this comment and will probably implement this in the next patch...
Is it possible To Make cannons effect armored units or just rines or lings seperately to rest? or to even have a Cannon Upgrade? like 25 gas upgrades cannons or something.. just some cool ideas. broodling a tank or an anti tank unit or spell would be awesome with the sci vessel
I like that solution as far as buffing Cannons because this will make them more effect later in the game but not overpowered early game. It also will give players more things to do with their gas and more options for playstyle.
10) Aggression Income
I saw one post that talked about the amount of aggression earned from units didn't take upgrades into account. I could actually make it so that more upgraded units would give a player more money when killed but this would really change the style of the game and some players might feel like it's unfair that other players will be making more money off their units just because they are upgraded. I will need more opinions on this before I decide to implement anything.
I hope that covered the bigger of issues that have been brought up, if I missed anything feel free to bring it up again, and I would really like some feedback on some of the things I brought up like Chokes and such.
Also Please let me know what you guys think about creating another Mode in the game. I need a lot of feedback on this if I'm going to implement it. To clear it up for anyone who didn't understand it would basically be the same map but I would adjust the units stat through triggers in order to create another game mode that players could vote to play at the beginning of the map.
I won a game last night against a player who owned the majority of the map with level 12:0 tanks.
I see the tank splash upgrade as a play style change - because obviously you don't want to throw your marines at the person in the lead making them even richer. Tank players still aren't invincible since it takes a while to afford the splash upgrade. I was able to beat a tank player by saving my money and upgrading my zerglings from 0:0:0 to something like 8:0:3 and then use the money I made off killing his tanks to continue funding my way to victory.
I really like that the changes make each unit useful for doing different things at different points in the game. Also - whoever thought up unloading Marines on Tanks is genius - this kind of niche thinking makes this game even more of a "Strategy" game.
I have trouble understanding some of the "phrases" that are used in this thread like "Micro", and "Rock, Paper Scissors". I assume "Micro" means upgrades or amassing units in one spot, and "Rock, Paper Scissors" refers to giving units equal stats like in the original board game where a unit could be broken down or condensed between $1s, $5s, and $10s but essentially had no effect on the dice rolled which determined wins/losses.
I really like that it's now possible to defend my continents against invasion again since the tank upgrade. This makes players consider more wisely how to use their units instead of rushing the guy with 0:0:0 marines, and 9:0 tanks with their 9:4:4 marine army.
I really think a lot of players haven't discovered the power of zerglings yet, or even understand the difference between upgrading HP or Armor depending on what kind of unit they're countering.
@litepollution9
I agree that starting minerals shouldn't allow players to rush a tank at round 0 and cruise around to seige and hold wherever.
I think you should be able to call down an airstrike using gas anywhere on the map - this would give players something to use their gas on, maybe make it expensive like 50 gas or 100 gas to call-down a strike before invasion.
Just going to say I agree with a lot of what electriprism just said. Also, microing refers to how you control units in a battle. The opposite of this is macroing, which refers to the bigger picture like where you place your units and what you attack. Rock paper scissors is just like the game rock paper scissors, so think of it like this, marines beat zerglings, zerglings beat tanks, tanks beat marines.
@Voting on modes: I like this but I think this needs to be done the right way. I think Wc3 risk games give a good example of modes being done correctly. For example, teams mode, fraction of bounty, hidden names, transports included or not included. The different settings were chosen seperately, so you would vote on the fraction of bounty and then on whether or not transports were included. I don't know if you played Wc3, but here's a link to Risk Devo the most popular risk game on Wc3 for an idea of the different modes it offered if you're interested Your text to link here....
I'm not saying which modes you should include, but if you do add different modes, I think the options should be chosen individually, instead of just a rigid setting.
I would really like to see the ability to vote on either having rebels removed entirely or somehow nerfed, beause they tend to annoy me >.<. I like the idea of an epic comeback, but I think it should be done differently.. Another thing that I think would be convenient, an option for players to individually turn on and off base defenders, which would force one unit to remain near the base.
Also, for a possible upgrade for tanks maybe an upgrade that shortens the legnth of time it takes them to change from tank to seige mode and vice versa. Just throwing that out there.
And just one question, how big is the map? 256X256?
And because I used to work on a map and appreciate the time it takes to make maps, thanks again for the fun map :)
And I was going to end my post there but now I feel suddenly inspired to go on a mini-rant. I just wanted to talk about some of the things I like most about this map, in the hopes that they remain unchanged, if not improved. One thing that makes this map so much fun is its simplicity. There is certainly depth to the game's unit microing and unit upgrading that I don't yet understand and this kind of thing is important in a game so that players have some way to improve. But I'm a huge noob at this game and I'm still able to somehow win now and again because this game is simple enough that pure skill can't always beat out diplomacy and strategy, which is what Risk is all about. What I really like about this game is not the skill it takes to effectively micro your units or the knowledge it takes to know what to upgrade and when, but rather trying to outthink my opponents and trying to plot my way to victory. I've seen some people lable that kind of playstyle as "opportunist" but I think its part of what makes this map great and truly unique because strategy is actually very important, and victory isn't necessarily determined by a players skill or knowledge (though that does give them a tremendous edge) but rather by the actions of everyone in the game and how you succeed or fail to use those actions to your benefit. Then again, it can just come down to dumb luck :).
To be fair, unloading things on tanks has been done for ages in sc1, I just realized that I could do it in this game.. so I'm not quite a genius ;)
I think the tank upgrades have made it far better, making them a great counter to marines. The only issue is that again, there really isn't an alternative to marines and health upgrades in the very beginning before you can afford multiple tanks, but that is a much, much smaller issue than those that permeated the game before.
I like keeping the damage high on units- I agree, goliaths would become too unstoppable otherwise.
I think the chokes are great and are probably fine for now- maybe 1 or 2 small issues may come up over playtesting.
For aggression income- I also think it should not take upgrades into account. The main factor where upgrade imbalance comes in is when wiping out players, and you want to give that type of massive incentive to throw your army at a turtling small player when there are other big players ready to attack you.
I think Stim and speed zlings are fine, now- by the time you get both stim and +50 health there are lots of tanks out on the game.
I think cannon upgrade would be better to give splash more than increase damage- with large armies, cannons just never matter later in the game, and a small amount of splash would make them do so whereas more damage would just make them more annoying.
Finally, I agree with nickel- keep this game simple!
OK here's something thats been kind of bugging me: when I spawn units no matter what they will run to the rallying point before attacking enemy units, even if they are being attacked. This can result in quite a few troops dying without even fighting back if a large force is attacking my base. Not sure if this can be change or if its justs a SC2 thing, but its a dang nuisance.
Nickel, if that could be changed, it shouldn't be- that's what Starcraft is and always has been like, and it rewards quick responses and strong control.
That leads me to my next point- I have won the last 5 games in a row I have played, so I decided to watch the replays. One thing I noticed when I watched all 5 replays was that I decided to switch to the APM tab. Literally everyone, in all 5 games, had <60 APM except for one opponent who was around 90 (who was easily second that game) and me around 120-140. It's obviously hard to compare APM to a ladder game where you have so much more to manage and are doing less micro, but I mean, I don't even think very highly of myself as a sc2 player. It makes me wonder- if people are so slow, why do they like to play this game that rewards quickness so greatly? As opposed to nexus wars/desert strike, where you don't need to be fast? Perhaps I should stop making suggestions, because Lite clearly knows something that I don't about making maps.
Sorry for the rant, didn't mean to offend or target anyone in particular- it's just an interesting phenomena, I suppose.
I guess you're right. I'm just used to Wc3 where units do auto-attack even if they are set to a rally point. But if thats part of SC then might as well leave it.
Something has got to be done about this ridiculous aggression bonus. The aggression bonus was designed to give a *SLIGHT* edge to players who are aggressive and not camping. This means it should be only a few minerals. It is inconcievable to me that you should get a return in minerals equal to half the number of units killed that turn. In most games I play, the aggression bonus is always the biggest factor for the winner. In some games, I have personally been able to achieve an aggression bonus numbered in the hundreds of minerals in a single turn. Please, PLEASE, cap the aggression at something like 20 minerals per turn.
When players leave, their units and territories should become computer owned/controlled. The territories should get an extra marine every turn. The current situation of destroying all units when a player leaves and then making the territories free to anyone is completely unbalanced. I will give you an example that keeps happening - consider a game with three players remaining. One player is very large and owns half the map to himself and the other two players split the remaining territories between them. They decide that the only way to win is to team up and attack the larger player. So the first player sends all his units to attack the larger player, the larger player is severely hurt but wins the battle. Now the second player sends his guys to attack the larger player in a different place. Upon seeing the team-up, the larger player decides to leave. Now the first player has no units left because he fought it out. The larger players units are destroyed and his countries suddenly become free. Only the second player has many units left since he didn't get his chance to fight. So he gets all the countries for free. The units *MUST* remain to keep the gameplay balanced after someone leaves.
Please add the marine range upgrade. This was in the original SC1 version. Why not add it?
Please make the goliath air range longer. You nerfed the both the ground range and air range. But the air range should be increased again. The air range is so small that I could not kill a dropship from what seemed to be right next to it.
Please make the choke point between south america and africa smaller.
Please move the east africa territory to be closer to the asia choke point.
Please add a mineral count to the leader board. How many minerals a player has left is crucial information when deciding to attack, and should not be a secret.
I don't understand why africa gets THREE zerglings per turn. It should get 5 marines and 1 zergling. Currently it has a bigger bonus that europe, even though europe is considerably harder to take and hold. Australia has 1 point of attack, it gets 1 zergling and 1 marine. South america has 2 points of attack and gets 1 zergling and 3 marines. North america has 3 points of attack and gets 1 zergling and 6 marines. Africa has 3 points of attack and gets 3 marines and 3 zerglings???? Europe has 4 points of attack yet gets less of a bonus. Europe should get around 2 zerglings and 5 or 6 marines.
Something has got to be done about this ridiculous aggression bonus. The aggression bonus was designed to give a *SLIGHT* edge to players who are aggressive and not camping. This means it should be only a few minerals. It is inconcievable to me that you should get a return in minerals equal to half the number of units killed that turn. In most games I play, the aggression bonus is always the biggest factor for the winner. In some games, I have personally been able to achieve an aggression bonus numbered in the hundreds of minerals in a single turn. Please, PLEASE, cap the aggression at something like 20 minerals per turn.
If I was to change the aggression bonus now it would completely change the way the game was played... Now this might not be a bad thing but at the same time other people might like the aggression bonus so it really is more a matter of opinion regarding gameplay style opposed to something that needs to be changed asap. Also as I suggested before I could make another mode that would be more slow paced and implement a lower aggression system but it will take time and I'm also working on another map atm.
When players leave, their units and territories should become computer owned/controlled. The territories should get an extra marine every turn. The current situation of destroying all units when a player leaves and then making the territories free to anyone is completely unbalanced. I will give you an example that keeps happening - consider a game with three players remaining. One player is very large and owns half the map to himself and the other two players split the remaining territories between them. They decide that the only way to win is to team up and attack the larger player. So the first player sends all his units to attack the larger player, the larger player is severely hurt but wins the battle. Now the second player sends his guys to attack the larger player in a different place. Upon seeing the team-up, the larger player decides to leave. Now the first player has no units left because he fought it out. The larger players units are destroyed and his countries suddenly become free. Only the second player has many units left since he didn't get his chance to fight. So he gets all the countries for free. The units *MUST* remain to keep the gameplay balanced after someone leaves.
What you described doesn't sound unbalanced as much as it sounds like an intelligent player can manipulate the system. Teaming up against a larger player is strategic. I really don't see how it's unbalanced currently, everyone has equal opportunity to take over the empty bases after a player leaves, and destroying the units after a player leaves prevents other problems like...
Leaver players units camping the Spectre spawns (It might frustrate players when they spawn and get blow up by units that aren't even owned by a player).
Players getting trapped, it would not be fun to end up being trapped in a country like Australia with a wall of computer owned units being the only thing to stand in your way.
Games being drawn out longer than they need to be with players fighting computers rather than other players.
Maybe I'll consider adjusting this if I get more feedback but so far no one else seems to have an issue with this in particular.
Please add the marine range upgrade. This was in the original SC1 version. Why not add it?
Marines are already on the fringe of being OP, if I was to give them another upgrade they would definitely be OP unless other units got buffed of they got nerfed. So if you do want me to implement the Range upgrade a better solution would be for you to give me an idea of how to do it without Marines being to strong.
Please make the goliath air range longer. You nerfed the both the ground range and air range. But the air range should be increased again. The air range is so small that I could not kill a dropship from what seemed to be right next to it.
I can add +1 Range to the Goliaths air attack if everyone feels it's necessary.
Please add a mineral count to the leader board. How many minerals a player has left is crucial information when deciding to attack, and should not be a secret.
I will implement this when I do my next patch, I actually already know how to do it I just have been a little short on time lately so haven't gotten a chance to sit down and work on it.
I don't understand why africa gets THREE zerglings per turn. It should get 5 marines and 1 zergling. Currently it has a bigger bonus that europe, even though europe is considerably harder to take and hold. Australia has 1 point of attack, it gets 1 zergling and 1 marine. South america has 2 points of attack and gets 1 zergling and 3 marines. North america has 3 points of attack and gets 1 zergling and 6 marines. Africa has 3 points of attack and gets 3 marines and 3 zerglings???? Europe has 4 points of attack yet gets less of a bonus. Europe should get around 2 zerglings and 5 or 6 marines.
Africa was actually a suggestion that was implemented in order to give players more incentive to upgrade zerglings. As far as the rest of the countries their numbers are all based off of the original maps add or subtract one or two. Africa also technically has four points of attack and two large openings on either side of it so I don't see the problem with the amount of bonus they are getting. As far as Europe though I could give them an extra unit.
I hope this helps clear up some things and I will be making a patch this next week. Also if I do get more feedback on things like aggression and leaver units I will consider changing them so feel free to disagree with me if you feel it's a necessary improvement to the game.
Regarding the Goliath air range, and your suggestion to add +1 to it, that is simply not enough. In the original SC1 risk map Goliaths had air range of 8. You have nerfed it to 4. Adding a +1 only gives 5. The air range really should always just be 8. Or, at a minimum, able to get back up to range 8.
I think 5+2 with the upgrade is sufficient for air range- by the time they have dropships, you should have the +2, and 7 is fine. I agree, though- 4+2 is just too low when goliaths are your only anti-dropship unit.
I strongly believe mineral counts should stay private- keeping up a supply of mins to defend attackers is a very effective strategy. Do this enough and people won't attack you, even if you have 0 mins, because they think you do. Making this knowledge public just decreases depth and adds very little in return. Please add a vote to allow this if public mins are implemented!
Besides that, I agree with Lite in liking the way everything currently is with leavers/aggression/marines/Africa bonus.
The choke between SA and Africa I think shouldn't be made smaller, but it can be extended out so it is thinner farther into Africa, allowing Africa to more easily (but not too easily) defend both Europe and SA with that one choke point. SA is already a very strong continent that doesn't need any more bonuses, imo.
I do think the aggression bonus is too much, I would like to see different aggression modes added. And if you are going to expose people's minerals to everyone, please make that a mode as well so we can vote on it. Personally, I think displaying minerals takes away from the manipulation, diplomacy in risk.
What's funny about the income is that a huge strategic goal for me is to make the most money simply by owning the most territories that cost the least amount of units to acquire.
I think the problem with income is misunderstood. Aggression minerals make players control their battles strategically and with care. Knowing when to fight and when to retreat to avoid feeding the enemy players. It also allows a disadvantaged players with skills to use the terrain of the world along with their unit composition to their advantage.
(An example of using the terrain to your advantage is when you know the enemy only has upgraded zerglings and you have marines - backing them up against a wall so the number of zerglings that can attack goes down by 60% - or running your marine around the territory building so a ling can't catch you, or throwing down tanks at a choke.)
Something commonly confused about this map is that income is served out based on the number of territories owned and not continents. The benefit of owning a continent is you're given bonus units at the beginning of the round.
@LitePollution9: Go
Marines OP.
All i've done past 3 games and won each one in a row is just go mass rine. Rines are better tanking units than zerglings atm beuase of health upgrades as well as damage they putout makes them better than any unit. 50 extra health right off the bat as well as 15 damage. Now for a little calculation to show you why its op.
10 rines vs 2 ling 10rine=15damagex10=150 damage a hit. micro a little and even without micro lings instantly toast. Also you get more gas for using rines to kill lings than you would get becuase your also going to instantly win the battle. Siege is absolutley useless beucase of going quickrines you capture more territory and the unit output is alot better.
Next about rines being OP. Health upgrades- Calculation-1 health upgrade 5 rines- 50 health+if enough gas 250 health=300health 1ling- 10health
With a littlemicro and using the units right the rines also do more output on siegetank. For example when the game starts off and you get the gas, the 3 rines will almost = a ling. so 3minerals=5 minerals and will have more damage with the rines.
Another thing, GAS becomes useless. I heard your adding a conversion system but also why not have it so for getting gas, you can upgrade your higher tech units at a less cost by using gas, or make gas a requirement for upgrading base units after a certain level, lets say 5 so that the units dont become instant op.
Hi Risker;s,
Im not even sure where to start... im sure ur getting sick of reading all these posts as i am.. So ill Try TO keep It Brief And Round It all up simply. I will Try to take into account everything that was
said Thus Far and then bring forth a few of My own Ideas..
Let's start with saying This map is amazing... and i love it ;'Thank You so much. For Remaking it.
and Second - Im an experienced Risk Player From Sc 1 , Participating in many map tests For RISK
- I Guess well Start with Choke Points.. I like the New update Muchly.. But i Disagree with a few Locations.. Starting with
1. Sa Chokes , And Scandinavia chokes espically south side needing almost an extension and west side needing to be safer
as to be a Fall - Back Zone/Location For a Greenland Push, which brings me to..
2. Greenland Chokes Especially the Part that used TO Overhange Iceland.. I think people really enjoyed that and We Should, that is, people would like to see that brought back. kinda like .. the Zone North of Japan.
3. Zone North of Japan
Used to be a dip like Scandinavia.. a big dip.. I would like to see that again where you are able to FIRE ATTACKS w/ TANKS at the back of the island (Japan) + apply Pressure To Rines (hiding behind tank lines). Not able to hit the city itself.. Just the island's land mass Behind the city.. leading into the ocean. Also This Dip would be used to advance On Top Right City Kamtchi Or watever its called; to Fortify Postion Before proceeding a Progressive assault Onto Alaska, But back to Japan.. That Zone South of Kamtchi the Dip used to be more left and able to fire at Japan.. Which Brings me to my Next Location.. This is an important one..4.Japan
Used to not link north.. UseD to Go north then link west.. so u could Use That DIP To Fire at the north side.. And Japan Had To Run ARound a Big Land Mass to Get to You.. So What im saying is I think Japan Should Be Enlarged into the ocean more with Appropriate Styled Chokes. Let's Not Forget Japan Is A Full Fortified island Throughout History and Should Be the Most Advantageous Location on map.. I'm Not necessarily saying To Give it a Money Or Capital City Bonus.. *(although that's an idea) , im Just saying that LET US NOT FORGET That Japan Is an Island.. and Madagascar for that matter1* Back to the Point.. Japan now could use the northern location.. (Im sorry i dont have screen shot) use the northern location of island to seige forward and then move around land mass towards that DIP.. As well as asia.. moving towards Japan.. And Japan Could Really Do sick Shit.. WIth those drop ships. and Really Force a truce on aussie. So aussie is like sure lets make a temporary deal.. while we work this it.. It Adds DIPLOMACY TO THE GAME,.,. and if i remember correctly In the original risk handbook, that was 33% of the First paragraph Explaining the Sections to come. anywayz ( sorry Not trying to get rude ) just getting Hyped up just a little bit* Japan now is Like Listen.. Im a Nation TO be Considered.. As well as5. Madagascar.. South america, Aussie.. Scandinavia Top Left cities in (NA; Britsh Columbia, Alaska , And NWT.) , Greenland, Florida (at times),Etc. They were Called Advantageous Locations.. or Vantage Locations It Talks a lot About it in War Books based off The RISK Era Also.
II) I
<<quote 1204484>>
Hello new Article, Welcome and Based Off My Friends Findings.. And considerable testing.. And assuming The Speed for Ling RinE Tanks Is same as Sc 1 Original.. We should Not have a problem here and u should love the new settings.. Please give it a shot With me Before You Knock it.. Please.. Because it does fall into Proper and appropriate placing. opening a whole new venue of options and opportunities. which i will get into such as micro and such. Thank You + Enjoy!Rine Starting attack 7 Armor 0
Ling Starting Attack 11 Armor 0
Tanks starting attack. In Regular 85, in Seige 130 :) trust me its perfect starting settings try it without upgrades First =) Also,..
starting Minerals I believe should be adjusted based off new settings to 11 Minerals Rather than 9 . should also be able to buy tank off start in my opinion. if u feel like taking japan and turtling.. thats up to u.. Which brings me to map design and layout.. im seeing almost No.. I repeat little to no chokes.. like japan.. i kinda wish japan was a capital city that gave u a +2 bonus each round but thats another topic for another day.. i have amazing ideas on capital citys for risk.. i own every risk board game ive seen.. (pysical Cop8ies) I* think vantage locations are an important part of the game =) hehe
Next I also think a mild buff should occur to the Rebellion starting with 3 minerals per round.. even after death.. and i think u should get 3 ghosts and i think the ghosts should be able to use some sort of special ability such as lockdown from sc 1 to create a problem for tanks or gols..
Thank You very Much For Your Time we Much Appreciate it... *on behalf of Risk Lovers annonymous :)
ps. The lowering Of the the Damge will fix the cannon issue.. After the Cannon issue and the upgrades should fall into place also fixing the issue with early game tanks being of use now.. cause cannons will be/being so strong will forcibly put everyon into one tank 20 rines.. to conquer a continent feeling much more like the board game bringing me back to my original point of micro being increased dramatically. nice? do u like so far.. im not quite finished hehe. and because goliaths is your thing and being OP as it is.. You'll have to adust that accordingly =) tone them down also or whatever to integrate in with my 7 -11 85/130 combo/perfected mathematics... do it mathematically it works out perfectly paper rocks scissors, if u work it out.. and it even adjusts for chokes mid game and late game.. just working in your upgrades.. will be perfection . so if u'd Like i can do the math on the Goliaths at a later point.. perfecting them also.. but as i stated.. thats yur department i dont like that stupid unit lolz. although great for late game lack of room and space and handling chokes :) / turrtles* over population of units also.
and can we change the channel name to like elite riskers united or something more attractive so i can get people hanging there.. have like 5 people in there at all hours.. for games and challenges. That way we can start to create a really good community Another thing u wont have units instantly dying leaving much more room for micro off of the start.. cause of lower attacks.. and ull really be able to feel the upgrades this way.;.. msg me let me know.
<<quote 1204484>>
Rine Starting attack 7 Armor 0
Ling Starting Attack 11 Armor 0
Tanks starting attack. In Regular 85, in Seige 130 :) trust me its perfect starting settings try it without upgrades First =) Also,..
starting Minerals I believe should be adjusted based off new settings to 11 Minerals Rather than 9 . should also be able to buy tank off start in my opinion. <</quote>>
1. i Very Much Agree With this Quote I read From Quan Li. For the Most part.. Im just not Sure If his 7 11 Combo Or the 9 11 combo would work Best When You Bring into consideration the upgrade System That's In Place.. *which im very happy with, From that perspective.. i would Reconsider trying 7 but I think the 911 combo might work better with yur Upgrade system which is starting to feel like perfection.
2. i Definately do not Agree with starting minerals at 11.. I think it Should be Higher As is Board game.. Id SSuggest 13 starting Personally.. And High Cannon Output Is Apreciated under this setting. To Counter the tank.
Now there has Been some talks In the RISK Channel ON Bnet. About Stim Needing to removed Along with Speed Lings.. I agree with this Under the Condition OF adding Adrenal Back for lings... It would feel much slower paced like board game.. Im not sure about removing stim tho.. i like it as is with a 20 Percent Removing.. But speed Lings iz Necessary to Remove.. I definately Do Not Agree with it. now that you have charge Lings.. I like that a Lot Better.. Amazing Addition To Map. ^_^
You know What Im so Sorry Guys.. That was Everything.. =p.. i Guess that was everything Sorry It Took So Long.. Tried Not to Do iT. N e W a Y z. Just Wanted To say I FuckinG Love Your Map and the work that You Guys (including the community) has Put into It.. Congradulations..
I think we will have a following in The Channel: RISK
Many People in there Debating risk Every Day Now.. So ALl Stay Tuned And Check It Out Ps. Im Not Trying to Diss your map in any way.. I just Think Adjustments would support the Movement~ of The Community Im actually Really Excited About this Map It bRings me to Reminisce on the Good TiMeZ i had Playing this Game (sc1) and Board Game As a Youth .. :)
Thanks SO Much For Having This Function Available To us I think I speak For All of Us When i Say that. Later Dudes.. Ill keep an eye on the updates and let u know.. Keep me posted.
ENIGMA
RISK
Hey Guys.. Nice Lobby You Guys Got a Good Lobby Going On Here.. Very GOod To SEe.. Been Waiting a few years just to play
this map again.. Love it.. and with that said.. I have A Lot OF Ideas.. But as I can See this Map Being In the Infant Stages still, i'll
try To Stay On Topic To the Forum .. Thanks 4 Your-Time. ...
and only Testing will tell for sure.. But Here it Goes
The 7-11 Combo Phrase. Very Good Combo But I
And i Really think its too durastic of a change for This map at this this Stage.. So according my my Calculations This Would be Much More
appropriate> ^_^ < Rines Marines Attack Should Be 9 Off Begginning.
< Lings Attack Should Be 14 Off Begginning.
>Tanks Will Be determined later.. I think they are appropriate at current . possibly need to Be Lowered as Afformentioned.
This Will Be The Perfect settings to give rines vs lings and = balance Off start. but Mid Game After Achieving 1 Continent, Rines will start to
Open up.+ gain the advantage , Then suddenly as someone achieves their Second Continent.. Lings Will steal the advantage Back with
hit and runs on smaller Game uh.. Smaller Groups* so Late Game Lings WIll Have a strong advantage. Which shows Progression through the aGes +
i like that feel to it.
mental note (which reminds me to bring up the starting minerals next and how the game should Feel and Progress)
So yah Back to what i was saying.. It will have a very Paper Rock Scissor feel To it with these settings and leave much more room for micro and land advantages to sway the tide of balance. For example Rines And lings will Basically Tie Off start without the Cannons.. Leading to defensive Cannon Tie dice Like board Game.. Defender will win tie. :) But if The Guy Micros his marines he will Win with a clear advantage .. But if the
Marines are NOT micro'd at all.. The Lings will win,just.. But it all changes after u group 20 or 30 rines against pure lings.. and Lings Will Own Tanks at this settings Except in tight choke POints.. of course.. Tanks will own lings also if u upgrade them and hide behind chokes but in general a smart linger will always win. forcing the guy to add rines to his tank army etc etc..tanks WIll Own Rines.. But not 10 rines vs 1 tank in openField.. it would have to be 3 tanks behind choke with 10 rines will RAPE 50 rines But in open field The rines will still win.. especiallyt iif they can surround in say asia.; so again its balanced but slightly favored in one direction if used properly its about a 71 - 73 % difference on the Paper Rock Scissors advantage.
Again its a paper rock scissor feel every time with a pro being able to gain the advantage with all unit types.. even equally building all unit types. so its all balanced this is how it looks
Marines > Lings > Tanks > Marines etc etc..
These statistics First So as Not To Jump Too Far Ahead Of ourselves .. and maybe Get some Feedback On it. They are such as follows,
MARINE - 11 Starting attack Rather Than 15
ZERGLiNG - 17 Starting attack Rather Than 25
ARTiLeRRy - TBD i'll Let You Have Fun w/ That :P ps. Love the New Tank AOE up GOod Job. On that Note;
And Actually Its the Perfect settings cause the math is nearly the same as yours + You
shouldnt need to adjust tanks much after that . slight boost Most Likely, Which im Sure
can Be addressed Later with all the Imput From the FORUM.
Please Remove i Gotta Agree With An Earliar Post about well Here.
[RISKOFENIGMA]QUOTE
Now there has Been some talks In the RISK Channel ON Bnet. About Stim Needing to removed Along with Speed Lings.. I agree with this Under the Condition OF adding Adrenal Back for lings... It would feel much slower paced like board game.. Im not sure about removing stim tho.. i like it as is with a 20 Percent Removing.. But speed Lings iz Necessary to Remove.. I definately Do Not Agree with it. now that you have charge Lings.. I like that a Lot Better.. Amazing Addition To Map. ^_^ [END-QUOTE]
About Remove Stim And Speed Lings And Yes Add Adrenaline But i Would
Really like to See Ranged Rines Come back at +1 or +2.. This would really
Slow the Game Back Down To its ROOTS, Yet still with the
I Really agree that this would be much better for instance.. In the case of rines.. Are u gonna suicide stim into a pack of men so u can get the shots off on
a choke pointOr are You Going to get a Range upgrade.. And move in and suround him with the use of ling/rine.. You be the Judge of that.
New tank upgrade perfectly counters rine upgrade. for armor health. Range UPgrade will also help counter thrusting Lings or Hoover lings or whatever those cool little things are called.. excellent job on that upgrade too. Lings with adrenal thrust will be powerful and will fall in together hand in hand. i just
really dont think speed lings are necessary and a few have ssaid the same. This would also open up other avenues also such as;
changing agression to include how many cities u captured in a round. rather than just kills for example. Would Also Make People think twice about moving there troops too far from home. cause they cant stim run home like gods. Overall i think Microing Would Be More possible this way as well as Macro.
]
One Last thing i forgot to Mention.. because of all The Micro Talk.. Starting Minerals - 14 would be My More Fair if You Decide to lower settings down. a bit Please. Beacause this way cannons will eat yur rines faster based off enemy rines Lines*surviving slightly longer.. Meaning we need more rines to battle cannon fire.. also It would open the door way for 2 lings 4 rines.. healing Lings*from cannon fire. and then retreating and waiting to take the next cannon with other ling.. Also u could buy 1 tank and slowly seige up.. maybe 15 minerals so u can get one ling one tank.. but i think that would be OP.. Tell me what u think ;) 14 is perfect . As Far as cannon output is concerned currently I
Like the High Output but think it should be increased further vs light lightly and vs heavy dramatically. to combat retard units like goliaths.. Seriously Oh yah Shit I saw a guy Today win with sa and we all had continents .. all h e had was 3goliaths and a science vessel.. really pissed me off.. Goliaths are heavily OPwith sci vessel so you need to either weaken goliaths slightly or more preferably nerf vessels like other guy said by charging cost of unit to repair divided by two or by making it so energy has to recharge slowly so u cant just use it indefinately on goliaths.. Also i think a new ability should be added to sci vessel.. just not sure what something cool like Broodlings or emp or something .. think about it.. Or ensnare like it sc 1 to use on lings lolz.
later guys 1Love,
[email protected]
@dndgpgp: Go
Sci Vessel Should In my opinion use Energy Te Repair bio.. A limited amount.. and then Charge half the cost of unit for mech.. :) that way you could repair yur men from cannon or tank fire for free but u have to micro to do itand you cant lose too much health cause u have to charge your energy. and then u have minerals to pay for goliath repairs if you want to use that brand new unit so bad with full healthyoushould have to purchase it.Or at least. pay for the Repairs. like it Naturally should flow. would be much more realizstic and macro/micro intensive.
Is it possible To Make cannons effect armored units or just rines or lings seperately to rest? or to even have a Cannon Upgrade? like 25 gas upgrades cannons or something.. just some cool ideas. broodling a tank or an anti tank unit or spell would be awesome with the sci vessel
@LitePollution9: Go
Siege Op needs nerf by a few different means-
Lower damage only to lings by alot make it so lings have anti-tank armor basically
Lower splash radius- I think the up is making it so powerful that almost nothing can stop it. If not the lings would be fine to kill if siege wernt op
Lower damage to goliaths so its only around 30-100 for base damage-Goliaths become useless if someone has good siege ups
I disagree, Booleeas- I think very powerful tanks are a great thing, giving people who have fewer resources a chance not to be immediately eliminated. It also opens up way more strategies- for example, in the late game, you can use dropships to drop marines onto the tanks and kill them with their splash. Goliaths also are still not useless- for tank lines with 4 or fewer tanks, goliaths decimate them. The only truly unstoppable combination right now, imo, is if someone has 8+ tanks with 2+ goliaths to shoot down dropships, and that is simply just not affordable at every choke in a game that is still competitive.
Nice to see all the feedback, since there are a few issues I see coming up in a few different posts I'll be addressing those in topics.
1) Damage Numbers for Units
I've noticed that one topic that keeps coming up is that of the numbering system regarding Marine and Zergling damage, it seems that a lot of the posts are talking about reducing that damage and tank damage, from the current 15,25, and 75/150 to something like 11,17 and 85. Now this is a fine idea and I will consider implementing it but I have noticed that it doesn't take unit Hp into account and it also doesn't specify how Goliaths would be handled. Reducing unit damage without reducing unit Hp would make units like tanks and Goliaths even harder to kill. Now as far as the idea itself I think I might have a solution to the issue but I will need to have a lot of feedback on it before I proceed.
The idea I was thinking about implementing was a voting system at the beginning of game that would allow player to choose different modes. This would make it possible to keep the current system that is already in place and then also include another system that would be the adjusted damage and such. Now if I choose to implement this it would result in having to vote at the start of the game for the mode the players want to play, and it would take some time to implement but it is possible so I would like to here some feedback of what you guy think about it.
2) Science Vessels and Goliaths
I have very recently nerfed Science Vessel healing rate as an attempt to hotfix the problem but I will most likely go with a similar approach to this post below in the next patch.
3) Adding Chokes
Now I did end up adding a number of chokes after some of the posts on chokes came up. So how does everyone feel about the new chokes?
4) Stim and Speed Ling Upgrade Removal
This could also be fixed if I decide to create another mode to the game that players could choose at the start. As it is right now I'm not going to remove Stim or Speed Lings but I can nerf those abilities instead until they are in a good spot. I did increase Stims health cost to Marines and one of the reasons I really don't want to remove speed lings is because with the recent tank upgrade they really need to be able to get on top of tanks fast in order to counter them. But if I get enough feedback on these abilities I will consider adjusting them.
5) Marines OP
I hope that with the new Tank upgrade all Marines wont be as OP, feedback on this would be appreciated.
6) Increase Starting Minerals
This is another one of those things that I could add to another mode but for the current mode I really don't want to see players build a tank in the first round. I think that it would result in to much camping in the first round and I want the first round to be more exciting for new players and not turn into a stalemate quickly.
7) Gas, too Much of it, Nothing to do with it...
I am currently implementing a conversion system of gas to mineral, the only thing that is holding me up is the conversion rate. Right now I was thinking of going with 25 gas will get you 50 minerals and you will only be able to buy minerals when you at least have 25 gas. This would be so players that decide to save their gas for upgrades aren't penalized for saving while other players just convert their gas to minerals early game.
8) Tanks OP with the New Upgrade
Tanks needed to get a buff because they are a great counter to Marines, and Marines were very strong without Tanks to blow them away. I think the new upgrade gives players more options as far as playstyle. If Marines are nerfed then I will probably nerf the Tank upgrade to keep them even but right now I think tanks are in a good spot.
9) Cannon Damage Output
I actually saw this comment and will probably implement this in the next patch...
I like that solution as far as buffing Cannons because this will make them more effect later in the game but not overpowered early game. It also will give players more things to do with their gas and more options for playstyle.
10) Aggression Income
I saw one post that talked about the amount of aggression earned from units didn't take upgrades into account. I could actually make it so that more upgraded units would give a player more money when killed but this would really change the style of the game and some players might feel like it's unfair that other players will be making more money off their units just because they are upgraded. I will need more opinions on this before I decide to implement anything.
I hope that covered the bigger of issues that have been brought up, if I missed anything feel free to bring it up again, and I would really like some feedback on some of the things I brought up like Chokes and such.
Also Please let me know what you guys think about creating another Mode in the game. I need a lot of feedback on this if I'm going to implement it. To clear it up for anyone who didn't understand it would basically be the same map but I would adjust the units stat through triggers in order to create another game mode that players could vote to play at the beginning of the map.
I won a game last night against a player who owned the majority of the map with level 12:0 tanks.
I see the tank splash upgrade as a play style change - because obviously you don't want to throw your marines at the person in the lead making them even richer. Tank players still aren't invincible since it takes a while to afford the splash upgrade. I was able to beat a tank player by saving my money and upgrading my zerglings from 0:0:0 to something like 8:0:3 and then use the money I made off killing his tanks to continue funding my way to victory.
I really like that the changes make each unit useful for doing different things at different points in the game. Also - whoever thought up unloading Marines on Tanks is genius - this kind of niche thinking makes this game even more of a "Strategy" game.
I have trouble understanding some of the "phrases" that are used in this thread like "Micro", and "Rock, Paper Scissors". I assume "Micro" means upgrades or amassing units in one spot, and "Rock, Paper Scissors" refers to giving units equal stats like in the original board game where a unit could be broken down or condensed between $1s, $5s, and $10s but essentially had no effect on the dice rolled which determined wins/losses.
I really like that it's now possible to defend my continents against invasion again since the tank upgrade. This makes players consider more wisely how to use their units instead of rushing the guy with 0:0:0 marines, and 9:0 tanks with their 9:4:4 marine army.
I really think a lot of players haven't discovered the power of zerglings yet, or even understand the difference between upgrading HP or Armor depending on what kind of unit they're countering.
@litepollution9 I agree that starting minerals shouldn't allow players to rush a tank at round 0 and cruise around to seige and hold wherever.
I think you should be able to call down an airstrike using gas anywhere on the map - this would give players something to use their gas on, maybe make it expensive like 50 gas or 100 gas to call-down a strike before invasion.
Just going to say I agree with a lot of what electriprism just said. Also, microing refers to how you control units in a battle. The opposite of this is macroing, which refers to the bigger picture like where you place your units and what you attack. Rock paper scissors is just like the game rock paper scissors, so think of it like this, marines beat zerglings, zerglings beat tanks, tanks beat marines.
@Voting on modes: I like this but I think this needs to be done the right way. I think Wc3 risk games give a good example of modes being done correctly. For example, teams mode, fraction of bounty, hidden names, transports included or not included. The different settings were chosen seperately, so you would vote on the fraction of bounty and then on whether or not transports were included. I don't know if you played Wc3, but here's a link to Risk Devo the most popular risk game on Wc3 for an idea of the different modes it offered if you're interested Your text to link here....
I'm not saying which modes you should include, but if you do add different modes, I think the options should be chosen individually, instead of just a rigid setting.
I would really like to see the ability to vote on either having rebels removed entirely or somehow nerfed, beause they tend to annoy me >.<. I like the idea of an epic comeback, but I think it should be done differently.. Another thing that I think would be convenient, an option for players to individually turn on and off base defenders, which would force one unit to remain near the base.
Also, for a possible upgrade for tanks maybe an upgrade that shortens the legnth of time it takes them to change from tank to seige mode and vice versa. Just throwing that out there.
And just one question, how big is the map? 256X256?
And because I used to work on a map and appreciate the time it takes to make maps, thanks again for the fun map :)
And I was going to end my post there but now I feel suddenly inspired to go on a mini-rant. I just wanted to talk about some of the things I like most about this map, in the hopes that they remain unchanged, if not improved. One thing that makes this map so much fun is its simplicity. There is certainly depth to the game's unit microing and unit upgrading that I don't yet understand and this kind of thing is important in a game so that players have some way to improve. But I'm a huge noob at this game and I'm still able to somehow win now and again because this game is simple enough that pure skill can't always beat out diplomacy and strategy, which is what Risk is all about. What I really like about this game is not the skill it takes to effectively micro your units or the knowledge it takes to know what to upgrade and when, but rather trying to outthink my opponents and trying to plot my way to victory. I've seen some people lable that kind of playstyle as "opportunist" but I think its part of what makes this map great and truly unique because strategy is actually very important, and victory isn't necessarily determined by a players skill or knowledge (though that does give them a tremendous edge) but rather by the actions of everyone in the game and how you succeed or fail to use those actions to your benefit. Then again, it can just come down to dumb luck :).
Hope that all makes sense!
To be fair, unloading things on tanks has been done for ages in sc1, I just realized that I could do it in this game.. so I'm not quite a genius ;)
I think the tank upgrades have made it far better, making them a great counter to marines. The only issue is that again, there really isn't an alternative to marines and health upgrades in the very beginning before you can afford multiple tanks, but that is a much, much smaller issue than those that permeated the game before.
I like keeping the damage high on units- I agree, goliaths would become too unstoppable otherwise. I think the chokes are great and are probably fine for now- maybe 1 or 2 small issues may come up over playtesting. For aggression income- I also think it should not take upgrades into account. The main factor where upgrade imbalance comes in is when wiping out players, and you want to give that type of massive incentive to throw your army at a turtling small player when there are other big players ready to attack you. I think Stim and speed zlings are fine, now- by the time you get both stim and +50 health there are lots of tanks out on the game.
I think cannon upgrade would be better to give splash more than increase damage- with large armies, cannons just never matter later in the game, and a small amount of splash would make them do so whereas more damage would just make them more annoying.
Finally, I agree with nickel- keep this game simple!
OK here's something thats been kind of bugging me: when I spawn units no matter what they will run to the rallying point before attacking enemy units, even if they are being attacked. This can result in quite a few troops dying without even fighting back if a large force is attacking my base. Not sure if this can be change or if its justs a SC2 thing, but its a dang nuisance.
Nickel, if that could be changed, it shouldn't be- that's what Starcraft is and always has been like, and it rewards quick responses and strong control.
That leads me to my next point- I have won the last 5 games in a row I have played, so I decided to watch the replays. One thing I noticed when I watched all 5 replays was that I decided to switch to the APM tab. Literally everyone, in all 5 games, had <60 APM except for one opponent who was around 90 (who was easily second that game) and me around 120-140. It's obviously hard to compare APM to a ladder game where you have so much more to manage and are doing less micro, but I mean, I don't even think very highly of myself as a sc2 player. It makes me wonder- if people are so slow, why do they like to play this game that rewards quickness so greatly? As opposed to nexus wars/desert strike, where you don't need to be fast? Perhaps I should stop making suggestions, because Lite clearly knows something that I don't about making maps.
Sorry for the rant, didn't mean to offend or target anyone in particular- it's just an interesting phenomena, I suppose.
I guess you're right. I'm just used to Wc3 where units do auto-attack even if they are set to a rally point. But if thats part of SC then might as well leave it.
@fritfrat: Go
i think frit frat is greatly wrong in his last post.
Something has got to be done about this ridiculous aggression bonus. The aggression bonus was designed to give a *SLIGHT* edge to players who are aggressive and not camping. This means it should be only a few minerals. It is inconcievable to me that you should get a return in minerals equal to half the number of units killed that turn. In most games I play, the aggression bonus is always the biggest factor for the winner. In some games, I have personally been able to achieve an aggression bonus numbered in the hundreds of minerals in a single turn. Please, PLEASE, cap the aggression at something like 20 minerals per turn.
When players leave, their units and territories should become computer owned/controlled. The territories should get an extra marine every turn. The current situation of destroying all units when a player leaves and then making the territories free to anyone is completely unbalanced. I will give you an example that keeps happening - consider a game with three players remaining. One player is very large and owns half the map to himself and the other two players split the remaining territories between them. They decide that the only way to win is to team up and attack the larger player. So the first player sends all his units to attack the larger player, the larger player is severely hurt but wins the battle. Now the second player sends his guys to attack the larger player in a different place. Upon seeing the team-up, the larger player decides to leave. Now the first player has no units left because he fought it out. The larger players units are destroyed and his countries suddenly become free. Only the second player has many units left since he didn't get his chance to fight. So he gets all the countries for free. The units *MUST* remain to keep the gameplay balanced after someone leaves.
Please add the marine range upgrade. This was in the original SC1 version. Why not add it?
Please make the goliath air range longer. You nerfed the both the ground range and air range. But the air range should be increased again. The air range is so small that I could not kill a dropship from what seemed to be right next to it.
Please make the choke point between south america and africa smaller.
Please move the east africa territory to be closer to the asia choke point.
Please add a mineral count to the leader board. How many minerals a player has left is crucial information when deciding to attack, and should not be a secret.
I don't understand why africa gets THREE zerglings per turn. It should get 5 marines and 1 zergling. Currently it has a bigger bonus that europe, even though europe is considerably harder to take and hold. Australia has 1 point of attack, it gets 1 zergling and 1 marine. South america has 2 points of attack and gets 1 zergling and 3 marines. North america has 3 points of attack and gets 1 zergling and 6 marines. Africa has 3 points of attack and gets 3 marines and 3 zerglings???? Europe has 4 points of attack yet gets less of a bonus. Europe should get around 2 zerglings and 5 or 6 marines.
If I was to change the aggression bonus now it would completely change the way the game was played... Now this might not be a bad thing but at the same time other people might like the aggression bonus so it really is more a matter of opinion regarding gameplay style opposed to something that needs to be changed asap. Also as I suggested before I could make another mode that would be more slow paced and implement a lower aggression system but it will take time and I'm also working on another map atm.
What you described doesn't sound unbalanced as much as it sounds like an intelligent player can manipulate the system. Teaming up against a larger player is strategic. I really don't see how it's unbalanced currently, everyone has equal opportunity to take over the empty bases after a player leaves, and destroying the units after a player leaves prevents other problems like...
Maybe I'll consider adjusting this if I get more feedback but so far no one else seems to have an issue with this in particular.
Marines are already on the fringe of being OP, if I was to give them another upgrade they would definitely be OP unless other units got buffed of they got nerfed. So if you do want me to implement the Range upgrade a better solution would be for you to give me an idea of how to do it without Marines being to strong.
I can add +1 Range to the Goliaths air attack if everyone feels it's necessary.
These are simple adjustments and I could implement them in the next patch if no ones opposed to it.
I will implement this when I do my next patch, I actually already know how to do it I just have been a little short on time lately so haven't gotten a chance to sit down and work on it.
Africa was actually a suggestion that was implemented in order to give players more incentive to upgrade zerglings. As far as the rest of the countries their numbers are all based off of the original maps add or subtract one or two. Africa also technically has four points of attack and two large openings on either side of it so I don't see the problem with the amount of bonus they are getting. As far as Europe though I could give them an extra unit.
I hope this helps clear up some things and I will be making a patch this next week. Also if I do get more feedback on things like aggression and leaver units I will consider changing them so feel free to disagree with me if you feel it's a necessary improvement to the game.
Regarding the Goliath air range, and your suggestion to add +1 to it, that is simply not enough. In the original SC1 risk map Goliaths had air range of 8. You have nerfed it to 4. Adding a +1 only gives 5. The air range really should always just be 8. Or, at a minimum, able to get back up to range 8.
I think 5+2 with the upgrade is sufficient for air range- by the time they have dropships, you should have the +2, and 7 is fine. I agree, though- 4+2 is just too low when goliaths are your only anti-dropship unit.
I strongly believe mineral counts should stay private- keeping up a supply of mins to defend attackers is a very effective strategy. Do this enough and people won't attack you, even if you have 0 mins, because they think you do. Making this knowledge public just decreases depth and adds very little in return. Please add a vote to allow this if public mins are implemented!
Besides that, I agree with Lite in liking the way everything currently is with leavers/aggression/marines/Africa bonus.
The choke between SA and Africa I think shouldn't be made smaller, but it can be extended out so it is thinner farther into Africa, allowing Africa to more easily (but not too easily) defend both Europe and SA with that one choke point. SA is already a very strong continent that doesn't need any more bonuses, imo.
I do think the aggression bonus is too much, I would like to see different aggression modes added. And if you are going to expose people's minerals to everyone, please make that a mode as well so we can vote on it. Personally, I think displaying minerals takes away from the manipulation, diplomacy in risk.
@Nickel510
What's funny about the income is that a huge strategic goal for me is to make the most money simply by owning the most territories that cost the least amount of units to acquire.
I think the problem with income is misunderstood. Aggression minerals make players control their battles strategically and with care. Knowing when to fight and when to retreat to avoid feeding the enemy players. It also allows a disadvantaged players with skills to use the terrain of the world along with their unit composition to their advantage.
(An example of using the terrain to your advantage is when you know the enemy only has upgraded zerglings and you have marines - backing them up against a wall so the number of zerglings that can attack goes down by 60% - or running your marine around the territory building so a ling can't catch you, or throwing down tanks at a choke.)
Something commonly confused about this map is that income is served out based on the number of territories owned and not continents. The benefit of owning a continent is you're given bonus units at the beginning of the round.