Hey yall, so yea I sort of disappeared from sc2mapster for awhile, and my apologies FunkyUserName for missing your request! Will totally do it now if you want :)
Anyways, I am back for the time being, and with Rock the Cabinet contest deadline closing in, I thought I would offer to attempt anyone's creations they plan to enter in the contest. Be a HQ video w/ commentary, possibly more if I think it suits the video. I can make it public, or just a private video for you, whichever works for me :) The goal is to just give my feedback on whatever I see/experience, what might need improvement, all to be taken with many grains of salt!
Try to keep requests within reason for me, IE:
No requests to have a full 10 player game please, I'm typically recording 12am-1am PST time or later to avoid additional commentary from screaming children/wife.
If the map is melee-like, understand that I kind of suck at the whole melee thing, so you going to see some of the worst macro/micro ever, possibly with me complaining that is the game's fault.
The map needs to either be public on EU/NA or I will need the map file in order to do the recording. Don't want anyone to see it yet for some reason, but don't trust your baby in anyone else's hands? Just name it something silly like adfkljdsalkfjasdklf100920151343 when you publically publish it, solves that little problem right there!
Given the contest entry due date is October 28th, I'm going to make the request due date October 21st, so I have time to record, render, you have time to watch, actually make use of the feedback, etc etc.
Maybe you have to wait for a bit some of the maps are totally broken due to the last patch. Also some maps when in lobby even if you have a party the map starts and you find your self alone in the map and your buddys on another map. :-(
You might be right, but still want to put it out there for anyone who might want the feedback. Giving free tours of how busted down your creation now is, courtesy Patch 3.0? :)
I totally get that any who, I'm currently in the process of making all my assets work properly again as the patch really did a number on them.
You probably should avoid watching the above video, in order to better simulate a player seeing the game for the first time inside the arcade. There is an in-game tutorial for that purpose. The map is available to play in North America, Europe and Asia (couldn't upload to South East Asia).
The game should be played against a human (it is a tug of war), and can be played 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3. However, I put a minimal AI in there so you can also play a 1v1 against a computer. He won't use spells, and you'll easily crush him, but you'll get a good idea of the game, and may even have fun!
Hi Chewiest, I will definitely have a look at it in the next few days. Not sure how I'll do on the getting another human front, as I prefer to get one I know so they don't bail on me mid-game, but I will definitely have a good look see. Do you prefer I post the video here, or just unlisted so you can see what is going on only? I can do either or :)
To anyone else who might be reading: Given patch 3.0 screwing everyone over so good, I'm not going to hold to the October 21st deadline I originally set. Any requests are fine for the time being. Please let me know the map name, region, minimum players I'm going to need, and whether to post it here or unlisted so only you can see.
Region: Any. (I posted to map to all regions now).
Post the video here. It's totally fine if its public.
Minimum players: just you against a computer will work, though 1v1 with another human is better. 2v2 and 3v3 are even better.
You can play the map against a computer (I do it for testing all the time). It will be dumb, and you'll probably win easily. But since I'm interested to see how you can learn how to play the game, that will not be an issue for the video, it will just be less fun for you.
Well, 3v3 could be a trick to get, but will do my best on that front, probably be trying this weekend as well. Will likely be posting Sunday/Monday with what I have so far.
Well, 3v3 could be a trick to get, but will do my best on that front, probably be trying this weekend as well. Will likely be posting Sunday/Monday with what I have so far.
There is a solo mode if you have too, but the dynamics are different as it divides money up per each player on your team, so your income is totally different in solo mode than it is in a 3v3. It isn't really an AI, but it builds enough stuff for you to explore the game.
That being said I've usually been able to fill lobbies with the new arcade.
Hello Chewiest, so decided to render yours first, as you were my first request! Here is the video, and I have left additional feedback below as afterthoughts.
The tutorial was well written, made sense, but I feel like moving their map, giving a few word description, and highlighting the building that goes with the description would flow much better. Just here is where you build guys! Here is where you upgrade them! Here is where you get rid of unwanted units! Here is how you send them to various locations, here is your special abilities dude. Have fun! Certainly would have helped me out... Just did.... so bad.
At a few points all my units magically died, and I have no idea why. Some explanation on that one would have been nice. Also, my god's abilities, aside from healing, seemed like they did absolutely nothing.
The towers you had were pretty good as last resort base defenders, but I feel like the final spot should maybe have 2 towers, maybe an extra final challenge to overcome. Just 1 extra tower going down, rather anti-climatic.
Anywho, look forward to see how it looks a few more weeks from now, keep up the good work. Despite my lack of ability at the game, I actually did like it.
Edit: Learned from duckies that a lot of income increases, food boosts, etceteras was related to managing to complete the quests. Which is cool, but it leaves the question, how does a player effectively get out of being screwed once he falls behind, since the game definitely snowballs after a certain point in terms of one side's power.
Hey, thanks a lot for trying out the map! It is really enlightening on several aspects.
The map is obviously not perfect, and it is rare to play well on your very first game. I'm thinking about how much I sucked at my first ever Moba game: you can't master a deep game in the first 5 minutes. Sacrificing your own units wasn't the best strategy either, haha! It helps to play with someone who knows a bit how to play so you can copy them (or to read the tutorial, which I agree is too long).
There is room for comebacks with objectives and god spell combinations. But in this case, your really fell too far behind in the early game. Your seem to have played with a player called DuckTheDuck. Was it his first game too? It seems like he read the tutorial, and got tons of objectives and a good army. He also made good use of his god's spells (seems like he chose the God of Eternal Glory). Anyway, I think that enjoying the game shouldn't rely on reading 5 pages of text beforehand, even small pages, which you and most players won't do, and I'm working on improving the first user experience.
More details:
when there is no active objective in a region, units periodically get killed there. That's entirely for performance issues. Not sure how to explain that in game. When a new objective pops up, units present in the region are also killed (just before it pops).
Towers in base: I tried many variations, and found that with more towers, the games tend to last longer even though there is no hope of a comeback. That's the problem in lots of Tug of Wars actually. After a few beta test sessions with friends, I decided the current amount is the right amount of towers.
I also need a screen so people who are ready to play know that someone is still reading the tutorial.
also found many UI inconsistencies thanks to you
I'm glad you liked playing even though the first minutes were really confusing.
Thanks again for trying the map!
Although you haven't posted about it yet, I see your video for my map has been uploaded so I gave it a watch. I'm grateful you went through the effort of getting a 3v3 even though it sounds like it was quite a pain for you.
It seems in general your play-through was ruined by lag. I'm curious if you tried 32-bit as was suggested on map info? You mention reducing units to reduce lag in the video quite often, but to my knowledge this is just a technical issue with the 64-bit version that Blizzard needs to fix and there's nothing I really can do, but if 32 bit is just as laggy for you I'd like to know. Either way, I'm very sorry this was your experience. Nobody really complained about lag until 3.0 introduced the 64-bit issues, and even afterwards I've had surprisingly few complain about it. Very unfortunate it afflicted you :(
I also wanted to know when you played this, as some other players were complaining about an issue with the income system which I had tried to fix sometime Sunday. So I wanted to know if you played this before or after I tried that. (If you played early Sunday or Saturday, it was before I tried to fix it)
Otherwise, it seems most of your troubles were just learning now to play the game, which definitely is the fault of the map, so if you have any ideas how to improve that let me know. For an example, for Ogre Halls there is a mini-map icon with the tool-tip, the build button itself has a tool-tip that explains it, and when you view the structure on the map, it also has a tooltip when you mouse over it. There is also a precedent set for that kind of construction by the way Orc Halls are built in camps. So I'm a bit at a loss of what I need to do there to make it more intuitive by default.
A few other notes, but again, they should have been intuitive so they're things I need to work on:
It didn't seem like you ever used the omniscient abilities, which is a big part of the game - so I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to help with that.
You mentioned there should be something to make your units constantly go into battle - there is, one of those buttons makes all of your production facilities rally toward the enemy, and units will attack anything they meet during their rally
There is a button to make all of your production stop auto-building in case you want to save money for something, too.
Anyways, again, sorry it was so laggy for you. Let me know if 32 bit solves the lag (you can just try it and solo-mode to see, if you don't want to put yourself through another 3v3 :P)
I did indeed use 32 bit, as was suggested. Just double checked what my options were to be sure.
I played it before Saturday/Sunday, so that fix probably wasn't in.
I do think the idea I have for units could really work, just have units become a squad of units when there is several in close proximity to each other. It could have very well been graphical lag too though. I do know I have issues with too many units in some of my maps, and had to put in certain features to combat that.
Tutorial wise, I think the icons are great, the tooltips are great, I simply was in such a panic to get stuff going that I felt I didn't have the time. I saw that they were all pretty high quality in the video editing. Something I might suggest to ease new players in is to pause the game for everyone for like 30 seconds, move their map around to show them critical things they must know in order to do well, then let the carnage begin! That is my only thoughts on what could have made it easier for me. I tend to learn by doing, not by reading, so I typically absolutely bomb maps that rely on me paying great attention to tooltips.
Nope, I totally didn't, I was just trying to build the things and make sure my guys were helping fight, mostly. Just didn't feel like I had time to play with it, I probably would if I played the game a lot more, knew what to expect more, etc etc. But that is just how these types of games go :)
Good to know about the constantly sending them into battle thing, obviously my first go at a game I'm gonna do pretty damn bad, lol. Ditto on the button thing.
No worries about the graphics/video lag, and the time to setup. Was a fun mod even though I'm admittedly awful at that type. Hope the feedback has been helpful, good luck fixing what 3.0 broke!
Oh, you were already using 32 bit. That sucks. =S I've already put a lot of effort into reducing lag through various tricks so I'm not sure if it can really be helped at this point. Seems 1 in 6 people complain of lag. :( I will keep trying different things to help it though.
"Tutorial wise, I think the icons are great, the tooltips are great, I simply was in such a panic to get stuff going that I felt I didn't have the time."
Thats interesting, why did you feel panicked? A lot of other players have said that too, but I'm not really sure why. At the beginning stages of the game you are usually far enough away from the enemy you don't really get into combat, so there isn't really any need to rush. Additionally, a lot of stuff is done for you (like building constructing units automatically) freeing up time for you to explore things. I'm interested in what seemed to create the feeling of panic for you, because it is something I'd like to change.
I tend to learn by doing, not by reading, so I typically absolutely bomb maps that rely on me paying great attention to tool-tips.
Well, a lot of players do, so I try to design it with that in mind. Was just wondering if you thought there was anything non-tool-tip related that would make it more intuitive without requiring reading. For an example, would making an Ogre defending the Ogre Totem(s) make it more visually broadcast "this is the ogre place" without having to read tool-tips? Maybe instead of a hover-over tool-tip, a permanent floating text saying "Build Ogre Halls Here"? Likewise, is there similar tricks that would draw you towards more ability usage.
Edit: Oh, and I forgot can you send me the replay of your game? Thanks
Why did I feel panicked, hrrmmm. Well for one, I knew it was the type of map where getting income in a hurry then an army right away was critical to having any chance. Then I guess the fact there was tooltips, alerts, warnings, this whole new menu fluttering all about as more and more units amassed. It may just be, for that type of game some people will naturally get panicked. There wasn't really a delay before the game got rolling in full force either that I recall, just WHAM! the mod.
Hrrmmm, how about an Ogre spectre near the area, + a permanent floating text. That might help with the confusion some. There always will be a learning curve though, is part of what brings people back. Is no fun to have something completely on auto-pilot from the first go at it. For ability useage, could just have it glow, be impossible to miss when it is full.
For ability useage, could just have it glow, be impossible to miss when it is full.
It does glow, and pops up a text near there saying "Your mana is full! Use abilities!" :P
And yeah, I don't expect people to master it on the first go. But for the Rock the Cabinet contest especially, making sure its a fun and understandable experience as fast as possible is important. Thanks for the expanded feedback & replay.
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i would like to request honest feeback to my latest map, only on europe so far :
battlenet://starcraft/map/2/183358
Hey yall, so yea I sort of disappeared from sc2mapster for awhile, and my apologies FunkyUserName for missing your request! Will totally do it now if you want :)
Anyways, I am back for the time being, and with Rock the Cabinet contest deadline closing in, I thought I would offer to attempt anyone's creations they plan to enter in the contest. Be a HQ video w/ commentary, possibly more if I think it suits the video. I can make it public, or just a private video for you, whichever works for me :) The goal is to just give my feedback on whatever I see/experience, what might need improvement, all to be taken with many grains of salt!
Try to keep requests within reason for me, IE:
No requests to have a full 10 player game please, I'm typically recording 12am-1am PST time or later to avoid additional commentary from screaming children/wife. If the map is melee-like, understand that I kind of suck at the whole melee thing, so you going to see some of the worst macro/micro ever, possibly with me complaining that is the game's fault. The map needs to either be public on EU/NA or I will need the map file in order to do the recording. Don't want anyone to see it yet for some reason, but don't trust your baby in anyone else's hands? Just name it something silly like adfkljdsalkfjasdklf100920151343 when you publically publish it, solves that little problem right there!
Given the contest entry due date is October 28th, I'm going to make the request due date October 21st, so I have time to record, render, you have time to watch, actually make use of the feedback, etc etc.
Maybe you have to wait for a bit some of the maps are totally broken due to the last patch. Also some maps when in lobby even if you have a party the map starts and you find your self alone in the map and your buddys on another map. :-(
Marie T. Freeman If you're too busy to give your neighbor a helping hand, then you're just too darned busy. https://www.facebook.com/wargirlmaps.maps
Spread the love join DISCORD
https://discord.gg/Jtzt8Su
@wargirlwargirl: Go
You might be right, but still want to put it out there for anyone who might want the feedback. Giving free tours of how busted down your creation now is, courtesy Patch 3.0? :)
I totally get that any who, I'm currently in the process of making all my assets work properly again as the patch really did a number on them.
Hey hey! Thanks so much for testing all these maps. I had problems with the patch too, but all of them are fixed now.
I'm also working on a map for Rock The Cabinet and would really appreciate feedback from a first-timer. It is called Gods of Terminion:
You probably should avoid watching the above video, in order to better simulate a player seeing the game for the first time inside the arcade. There is an in-game tutorial for that purpose. The map is available to play in North America, Europe and Asia (couldn't upload to South East Asia).
The game should be played against a human (it is a tug of war), and can be played 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3. However, I put a minimal AI in there so you can also play a 1v1 against a computer. He won't use spells, and you'll easily crush him, but you'll get a good idea of the game, and may even have fun!
@Chewiest: Go
Hi Chewiest, I will definitely have a look at it in the next few days. Not sure how I'll do on the getting another human front, as I prefer to get one I know so they don't bail on me mid-game, but I will definitely have a good look see. Do you prefer I post the video here, or just unlisted so you can see what is going on only? I can do either or :)
To anyone else who might be reading: Given patch 3.0 screwing everyone over so good, I'm not going to hold to the October 21st deadline I originally set. Any requests are fine for the time being. Please let me know the map name, region, minimum players I'm going to need, and whether to post it here or unlisted so only you can see.
Name: Shamans of Conquest
Region: NA
Minimum Players: 6 (3v3)
Post it here
Genre: Strategy
Map Link: battlenet://starcraft/map/1/263888
Thanks!
@Deadzergling: Go
Map name: Gods Of Terminion
Region: Any. (I posted to map to all regions now).
Post the video here. It's totally fine if its public.
Minimum players: just you against a computer will work, though 1v1 with another human is better. 2v2 and 3v3 are even better. You can play the map against a computer (I do it for testing all the time). It will be dumb, and you'll probably win easily. But since I'm interested to see how you can learn how to play the game, that will not be an issue for the video, it will just be less fun for you.
@Chewiest: Go
Will likely do that as soon as this weekend, just have a few other things going on up until then. Look forward to checking it out.
@TheSkunk2: Go
Well, 3v3 could be a trick to get, but will do my best on that front, probably be trying this weekend as well. Will likely be posting Sunday/Monday with what I have so far.
There is a solo mode if you have too, but the dynamics are different as it divides money up per each player on your team, so your income is totally different in solo mode than it is in a 3v3. It isn't really an AI, but it builds enough stuff for you to explore the game.
That being said I've usually been able to fill lobbies with the new arcade.
@Chewiest: Go
Hello Chewiest, so decided to render yours first, as you were my first request! Here is the video, and I have left additional feedback below as afterthoughts.
The tutorial was well written, made sense, but I feel like moving their map, giving a few word description, and highlighting the building that goes with the description would flow much better. Just here is where you build guys! Here is where you upgrade them! Here is where you get rid of unwanted units! Here is how you send them to various locations, here is your special abilities dude. Have fun! Certainly would have helped me out... Just did.... so bad.
At a few points all my units magically died, and I have no idea why. Some explanation on that one would have been nice. Also, my god's abilities, aside from healing, seemed like they did absolutely nothing.
The towers you had were pretty good as last resort base defenders, but I feel like the final spot should maybe have 2 towers, maybe an extra final challenge to overcome. Just 1 extra tower going down, rather anti-climatic.
Anywho, look forward to see how it looks a few more weeks from now, keep up the good work. Despite my lack of ability at the game, I actually did like it.
Edit: Learned from duckies that a lot of income increases, food boosts, etceteras was related to managing to complete the quests. Which is cool, but it leaves the question, how does a player effectively get out of being screwed once he falls behind, since the game definitely snowballs after a certain point in terms of one side's power.
so when is my map being played? if you will do so use the america version, i can't update on EU.
@FunkyUserName: Go
We actually considered messing around on it some, but wasn't sure if you still wanted it played at this point.
Is it safe to assume you mean this one? battlenet://starcraft/map/2/183358 (ling slayers)
yeah and no, i mean the one on america servers battlenet://starcraft/map/1/262249
@Deadzergling: Go
Hey, thanks a lot for trying out the map! It is really enlightening on several aspects.
The map is obviously not perfect, and it is rare to play well on your very first game. I'm thinking about how much I sucked at my first ever Moba game: you can't master a deep game in the first 5 minutes. Sacrificing your own units wasn't the best strategy either, haha! It helps to play with someone who knows a bit how to play so you can copy them (or to read the tutorial, which I agree is too long).
There is room for comebacks with objectives and god spell combinations. But in this case, your really fell too far behind in the early game. Your seem to have played with a player called DuckTheDuck. Was it his first game too? It seems like he read the tutorial, and got tons of objectives and a good army. He also made good use of his god's spells (seems like he chose the God of Eternal Glory). Anyway, I think that enjoying the game shouldn't rely on reading 5 pages of text beforehand, even small pages, which you and most players won't do, and I'm working on improving the first user experience.
More details:
I'm glad you liked playing even though the first minutes were really confusing. Thanks again for trying the map!
Although you haven't posted about it yet, I see your video for my map has been uploaded so I gave it a watch. I'm grateful you went through the effort of getting a 3v3 even though it sounds like it was quite a pain for you.
It seems in general your play-through was ruined by lag. I'm curious if you tried 32-bit as was suggested on map info? You mention reducing units to reduce lag in the video quite often, but to my knowledge this is just a technical issue with the 64-bit version that Blizzard needs to fix and there's nothing I really can do, but if 32 bit is just as laggy for you I'd like to know. Either way, I'm very sorry this was your experience. Nobody really complained about lag until 3.0 introduced the 64-bit issues, and even afterwards I've had surprisingly few complain about it. Very unfortunate it afflicted you :(
I also wanted to know when you played this, as some other players were complaining about an issue with the income system which I had tried to fix sometime Sunday. So I wanted to know if you played this before or after I tried that. (If you played early Sunday or Saturday, it was before I tried to fix it)
Otherwise, it seems most of your troubles were just learning now to play the game, which definitely is the fault of the map, so if you have any ideas how to improve that let me know. For an example, for Ogre Halls there is a mini-map icon with the tool-tip, the build button itself has a tool-tip that explains it, and when you view the structure on the map, it also has a tooltip when you mouse over it. There is also a precedent set for that kind of construction by the way Orc Halls are built in camps. So I'm a bit at a loss of what I need to do there to make it more intuitive by default.
A few other notes, but again, they should have been intuitive so they're things I need to work on:
It didn't seem like you ever used the omniscient abilities, which is a big part of the game - so I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to help with that.
You mentioned there should be something to make your units constantly go into battle - there is, one of those buttons makes all of your production facilities rally toward the enemy, and units will attack anything they meet during their rally
There is a button to make all of your production stop auto-building in case you want to save money for something, too.
Anyways, again, sorry it was so laggy for you. Let me know if 32 bit solves the lag (you can just try it and solo-mode to see, if you don't want to put yourself through another 3v3 :P)
So next up on the list was Shamans of Conquest by TheSkunk
@TheSkunk2: Go
I did indeed use 32 bit, as was suggested. Just double checked what my options were to be sure.
I played it before Saturday/Sunday, so that fix probably wasn't in.
I do think the idea I have for units could really work, just have units become a squad of units when there is several in close proximity to each other. It could have very well been graphical lag too though. I do know I have issues with too many units in some of my maps, and had to put in certain features to combat that.
Tutorial wise, I think the icons are great, the tooltips are great, I simply was in such a panic to get stuff going that I felt I didn't have the time. I saw that they were all pretty high quality in the video editing. Something I might suggest to ease new players in is to pause the game for everyone for like 30 seconds, move their map around to show them critical things they must know in order to do well, then let the carnage begin! That is my only thoughts on what could have made it easier for me. I tend to learn by doing, not by reading, so I typically absolutely bomb maps that rely on me paying great attention to tooltips.
Nope, I totally didn't, I was just trying to build the things and make sure my guys were helping fight, mostly. Just didn't feel like I had time to play with it, I probably would if I played the game a lot more, knew what to expect more, etc etc. But that is just how these types of games go :)
Good to know about the constantly sending them into battle thing, obviously my first go at a game I'm gonna do pretty damn bad, lol. Ditto on the button thing.
No worries about the graphics/video lag, and the time to setup. Was a fun mod even though I'm admittedly awful at that type. Hope the feedback has been helpful, good luck fixing what 3.0 broke!
Oh, you were already using 32 bit. That sucks. =S I've already put a lot of effort into reducing lag through various tricks so I'm not sure if it can really be helped at this point. Seems 1 in 6 people complain of lag. :( I will keep trying different things to help it though.
"Tutorial wise, I think the icons are great, the tooltips are great, I simply was in such a panic to get stuff going that I felt I didn't have the time."
Thats interesting, why did you feel panicked? A lot of other players have said that too, but I'm not really sure why. At the beginning stages of the game you are usually far enough away from the enemy you don't really get into combat, so there isn't really any need to rush. Additionally, a lot of stuff is done for you (like building constructing units automatically) freeing up time for you to explore things. I'm interested in what seemed to create the feeling of panic for you, because it is something I'd like to change.
I tend to learn by doing, not by reading, so I typically absolutely bomb maps that rely on me paying great attention to tool-tips.
Well, a lot of players do, so I try to design it with that in mind. Was just wondering if you thought there was anything non-tool-tip related that would make it more intuitive without requiring reading. For an example, would making an Ogre defending the Ogre Totem(s) make it more visually broadcast "this is the ogre place" without having to read tool-tips? Maybe instead of a hover-over tool-tip, a permanent floating text saying "Build Ogre Halls Here"? Likewise, is there similar tricks that would draw you towards more ability usage.
Edit: Oh, and I forgot
can you send me the replay of your game? Thanks@TheSkunk2: Go
Why did I feel panicked, hrrmmm. Well for one, I knew it was the type of map where getting income in a hurry then an army right away was critical to having any chance. Then I guess the fact there was tooltips, alerts, warnings, this whole new menu fluttering all about as more and more units amassed. It may just be, for that type of game some people will naturally get panicked. There wasn't really a delay before the game got rolling in full force either that I recall, just WHAM! the mod.
Hrrmmm, how about an Ogre spectre near the area, + a permanent floating text. That might help with the confusion some. There always will be a learning curve though, is part of what brings people back. Is no fun to have something completely on auto-pilot from the first go at it. For ability useage, could just have it glow, be impossible to miss when it is full.
Have attached the replay to this message.
For ability useage, could just have it glow, be impossible to miss when it is full.
It does glow, and pops up a text near there saying "Your mana is full! Use abilities!" :P
And yeah, I don't expect people to master it on the first go. But for the Rock the Cabinet contest especially, making sure its a fun and understandable experience as fast as possible is important. Thanks for the expanded feedback & replay.