Hey, really like the map and have been playing it for a very long time. Max suggested I post on here just never got around to it as you seemed to update things and fix issues quickly.
Only one thing has bothered me during all the games I have played whether being on the winning or loosing side. That is the troop drops.
Ok, once you capture an outpost (team A) you gain money when the counter hits zero and gain some specialist troops. Could you perhaps change it so that the team that looses the outpost (team B) gets twice as many normal troops dropped until the outpost is recaptured. This will make it more of a strategic game and help the loosing team (team B) to have a chance to recapture it. As I have seen it many times where teams have steamrolled the other if they had mainly new people vs experienced ones or when the teams are unbalanced due to quitters at the start.
It will also open the game up to more interesting tactics, do they want more money or more attacking troops.
Twice as many troops? I think thats an huge change in gameplay isnt it? I mean.. whats the logical reason for gaining extra troops for LOOSING an outpost?
But you are right - loosing all outposts at the beginning is a problem. I hoped I could lower the effect by reducing the initial outpost income.
Also: Having many new players in a team is a problem, yes. But I think thats a general problem. Is it really a solution do design the game that "forgiving" that you cant really do anything wrong? :)
Ok then. How about just removing the extra troops the outposts offer. So that the outposts only provide extra income and nothing more.
Another thing would be an auto team balancing system. Although I don't think that would be welcomed.
I wonder how it would change gameplay if at the very start the top outpost starts as team A and the bottom team B forcing people to fight for the middle until they can take over the other outpost occupied by the other team.
Hmmm... I know this might change it a bit but couldn't you block off the scientist at top and connecting it with a tunnel to the middle this will make it a cosmetic change. The tunnel could be where the center outposts drop ship comes in. This would solve the unbalanced part, it would also make the middle far more important.
Could I have a look at your coding work on the map? as I work as a UI artist for a game/media design company so I completely understand how you do not have the time to devote to this. I only play games in my free time for relaxation.
IPsoFreely, I think messing with the extra troops you gain from possessing outposts is a bad idea. Games already take about an hour, if the teams are balanced games stretch 90 minutes easily. More resistance from the losing team would result in even longer games. No, thanks.
The minuscule amount of money you get from outposts in the beginning helps a lot to keep the game balanced for a lot longer then it used to be. I usually just left 15 minutes into a game when my team had no outpost from the beginning. Now I have seen games turned around 30 minutes in...
The problem with all outposts being owned by one team still stands, tho. Even if team B team makes a coordinated push and captures one outpost team A just takes it right back. It's really just luck if B can capture 2 at a time due to respawn timer or whatever and usually just loses them again to full HP tanks against already damaged tanks from defending/attacking or simply the lack of defense because B is back to the base to heal and A has no opposition while taking them back.
Hi Freddy. I played your map and it is awesome. :) Would love to play more in the future.
However I do note that whichever team that rushes for the outposts at the start gains a significant advantage over the other team, and with the extra troops and income it becomes a lot harder for the other team to recapture an outpost and not lose it to a counterattack a few seconds later.
So suggestions for dealing with this? I often felt capturing outposts is too easy but as you say it also can be very difficult to recapture several outposts.
How about having some hostile turrets guard the outposts? (those little perimeter defense turrets or maybe even the vulcan turrets)
This would make outposts a little harder to capture at the start and would discourage rushing straight for the outposts without proper equipment.
Or you could make outposts uncapturable for the first 5 minutes of the game. This gives newbies time to become familiar with the game and also encourages players to go out and fight instead of sitting around and missing out on the minerals gained from killing units.
Edit: Bug Report - the Repair Kit IV disappears from the inventory a few seconds after one use. This shouldn't happen
@caparosmith: Go@Trieva: Go
Oh at first thx for the positive feedback :)
Your ideas are very interesting. Hostile towers at the beginning or a capture prevention are good ideas - I think I will implement one or both in the next update(s).
Balancing the additional units is also on my scedule. Medics are a bit to weak - I agree. But do you think the flamer guys are not "tanky" enough?
Unfortunately it will take some time till the next update because I have a lot of work atm.
Those flamer guys are not really tanky, in the sense that they have only a +0.5 difference in armor compared with the tankbuster. They need more armor or more health to be tanky enough.
However my biggest issue with the game right now isn't about any bugs or balance issues, it is the fact that I cannot select my attack targets (I have no control over what to attack). This is a big inconvenience as the damage is being dealt ineffectively, and I had taken more damage than I should have because of several enemy units surviving on low health who continues to attack me, whereas if I was able to select the attack targets and focus fire, then the enemy units would be killed one by one, which steadily reduces the number of units attacking me so I take less damage in total. This could be the difference between dying or surviving a battle.
If you have the time, please take a look at Fleet Assault. It has customizable spaceships. You can equip several different weapons in your inventory. And you can select your attack targets by right clicking on an enemy unit.
Your game would be a lot more enjoyable (or less frustrating) if you can do this too.
Well I have had talks with Freddy about the outposts and agree that my suggestion on buffing the marines is a silly one. I however wouldn't mind removing the units gained from the outpost so that they only offer money.
While talking with Freddy I have offered my services and currently in the process of making custom built tanks with modified weapon. I have this current setup for lasers as their current description states they are effective on shield but less on armor.
Laser being the anti shield weapon i have placed modifiers on it like below:
basic laser , lvl 2 , lvl 3 , lvl 4 , green burst , blue burst , rainbow laser
So... no manual targeting is the core mechanic of the game... its like battletanks. Of course many people dont like this but its one of the main elements to separate from other maps. :) Of course its a good idea to add e.g. some more specific target weapons...
That's confusing. I don't see why you don't have everything have the same amount of mk levels. It's easier to compare equipment.
Initially because there were only two stock icons for rockets and flamer. :)
So I created only two weapons of that kind and... never added the "missing" two tiers. I did not see a problem in this until now but yeah.. maybe its a good idea to fill in that gap
Laser Tank's laser still has a chance to NOT being interrupted by running out of range
Hydras still find their way into the woods and attacking the bunker on the southern entrance of the western team
the northern outpost's layout is not exactly mirrored. It's possible to shoot the southern auto turrets from the capture point, but not the northern (disadvantage for southern team)
some items still disappear when dropped (burst lasers, I believe)
repair kits sometimes disappear after being used, not sure about which level
burst lasers can still kill you after the opponent's death, especially the rainbow
it's possible to builds barracks on the plateau with big Zerg creature, right by the shop that sells MKIV equipment. This position it OP, since as attacker you will have to fight uphill. It's almost an "I win" button right now.
sometimes you can be shot from low ground, sometimes you cannot. It's not clear to me under which circumstances you can be seem from low ground and when not. Buggy? Or SC2 physics fault?
Here are a few things I thought about before answering to other posters comments:
The current state of the meta games seems to be to rush to the laser tank because it's laser is extremely overpowered compared to the HP that a starter tank has. This one is actually pretty easy to fix: introduce a level requirement for tanks. Now you cannot rush for the laser tank at level 5. I have no idea what the limits should be, might take some experimentation. This might also help the issue that a team with a leaver all of a sudden steamrolls the opponents teams with better tanks because of the money boost. Sure, they can still upgrade their weapons a lot - but they die faster. Should be tested!
Zerg attacks seem to always hit outposts that were just recovered by the team that is behind even though both sides have 0 aggression. May be selective perception on my part. But whenever I am in the losing team and we just got an outpost back, it seems like when a Zerg attack hits, it hits this outpost. Since Zerg destroy all the little cannons easily, the way is now free for the opponents to recapture the outpost. This may easily be fixed by sending Zerg to an outposts of the team that has more outposts, balancing the game even more.
Shields don't scale well. Deciding to go down the shields upgrade path will make you lose the game. Armor is really powerful since at 12+ armor you can just drive/walk through enemy troops basically without taking any damage at all. You can even go capture completely intact outposts by just walking inside on your own, ignoring everything that shoots you. It's impossible to do with shields. After that, you activate your repair kit and off you go. A shield based tank will take sooo much more time to regenerate shields...if it even survived the attempt to capture. I have no idea how to fix it, though.
There is quite some confusion about what rockets actually do to shields or armor. It feels like they always do the full damage, which is why swarm rockets still feel a bit OP. No matter if the enemy has shields or a lot of armor, swarm rockets just bite into the HP so fast that it has become the standard end game weapon of choice. As a player you just know that you will be able to deal with shields and armor equally well, so why bother going down the rainbow laser or lightning generator road that is only good against one of the two? Plus, because of the high rate of fire, swarm is also good against troops - rainbow and lighting are really not good at all against endgame troops.
Radars should also increase sight range. The reason for me to stay on the first walker tank as long as possible it it's ability to see further at night. Especially useful against tier 2 tanks - you can shoot them without them even seeing you. I've had so many people curse at me, it's fantastic! But you should be able to counter it. Right now radars are only used when someone in the opponents team gets a cloaky tank. This might give radars another use.
HunterSeeker should be removed, IMHO(!!!). This game is about positioning, maneuvering and approaching. A weapon that does guaranteed damage, may it be expensive and may it only do so little damage - over time, the guaranteed damage just adds up making it worth it. Especially since it has a range of 8! You can just stay in the cloud of your own troops and never get hit, yet deal damage to enemy tanks even if they try to hide inside their own troops. For me, that is game breaking. Just my opinion, though!
Cool down on improbability drive it too low. You can avoid being killed on almost every engagement you take, constantly denying kills while still dealing enough damage to make your opponent have to go back to repair.
So, now to the comments of other posters:
I really like the idea of hostile turrets in the beginning to prevent rushing for outposts. To improve on this idea: why not have the outposts captured by a neutral faction from the beginning, that shoots everyone? You would have to capture the outposts like they belonged to the enemy...
I think weapons, as of now, ARE balanced (with the exception of *maybe* rockets). Armor buff to lasers is good and helpful, two or three rainbow lasers really take down HP/armor buffed enemies ridiculously fast while struggling with shielded enemies. Same applies to lightning generators, extreme damage vs. shields but only OK against armored tanks. The auto cannons and flamer might feel identical in the beginning, but in the endgame a blue flamer deals with troops so fast, that am auto cannon cannot keep up (proper positioning assumed). Flamers are anti troop weapons, which I am totally OK with. Only issue I have is the auto cannons range. You have lot's of newbies buying it and then ask how they can shoot, because they don't ever get in range.
The differences in range are also big enough to make proper positioning and equipment choice important. With tuning and lasers you can kite a rocket wielding tank if you have the skill to do so and you really have to think about how to approach if you have zappers or auto cannons. Since this game is all about positioning, maneuvering and approaching there is nothing wrong with this. Only complaint would be that noobs take too long to figure that out.
Mortar range is good enough. It already outranges everything else. It's a weapon that's used against troops and static buildings and does both just fine without the risk of being shot from static defense or tanks without mortars themselves.
The best infantry are, period, medics. Sure, snipers kill marines in one shot, but they deal so little damage against tank busters, that the medics will heal them up just fine. The flamer guy is also OK for what it does: tanking a few volleys of rockets from tank busters, that would otherwise have already killed some marines, giving a distinct advantage without being overpowered.
Removing the scientist shop would be a bad idea. You need to be able to combine items to make room for other items, without downgrading your tank. Part of the fun of this game is to constantly improve your tank, removing the scientist would cap that ability too early, taking away a lot of fun.
I agree, that communicating how armor works to the players is important. Is there a diminishing return, or is as simple as "armor 15 * 5% = 75% damage reduction"?
I have still have no idea how to balance extra troop gains from outposts. Removing them entirely might be worth a try...?
Sorry for the wall of text. Great map, still. I play at least one game per day and enjoy it very much. Keep up the good work!
One more thing: Those flying tanks, that can cloak, have an ability that shoots a missile that is guaranteed to hit. I thing the activation distance should be a LOT shorter, forcing your take the risk of being shot before activation the ability. Right now it's more like "if you can see it, you can hit it" with all rewards, but no risk. But risk and reward should always be balanced.
I disagree with your logic there. How would having hostile turrets favour the fast tanks? In fact, NOT having the hostile turrets would favour the fast tanks as they can run straight to the capture points at lightning speed without fear of being attacked, and once the outpost is captured, they will have the little turrets that spawn which will help protect them against the other team. Outpost capturing at the start is like gaining a lot of free turrets as well as the extra units. Currently this can be done with little to no risk as players just need to be the first to reach an outpost. No need to worry about taking damage as the outpost is undefended.
I agree that the income becomes quite slow during the mid game when the money needed for the next level of equipment becomes quite high. How about increasing the income a little every 10 minutes? This can help speed up the game.
I also agree that radar should increase sight range as well.
Btw can we please have an inventory where we can store our unused items? Perhaps it is only accessible in the repair bay? For me, 6 equipment slots are not enough when I am carrying multiple equipment for item combinations at the elite shop.
Random targeting is THE core game-play mechanic of this map. Any target-able direct damage weapon, or even abilities, like the tank laser or the missiles of the cloaky fliers, are game breaking IMHO.
Laser tank and these cloaky fliers are used by troll players to have a guaranteed last hits to steal the kill other players have worked hard for and deserve.
Absolutely no manual targeting, if it was me developing this map, there wouldn't even be target-able damage dealing abilities. It's about learning when to use your stun or shields or regeneration, when to pursue or run away, how to walk around your troops for cover or avoid enemy troops for a free line of fire to the enemy tank. This is what makes the map great. It's what defines it. If you want target-able attacks, go play a DotA clone.
I also do not agree that a fast tank is countered by another fast tank at the start. The reason is as follows: the first player to get a just a couple of shots off on the enemy troops either pushes the engagement line so far back (by slowing troops) that he can now capture the outposts while standing in his own troops, totally protected. Or helps his own troops winning the engagement thus making a few of his tank busters survive that delay the next wave of enemy troops just long enough to capture the outpost.
This of course only applies in a 1v1 situation. But whoever is fist at the outpost and knows how to play will capture it (in a 1v1 situation).
From my experience this is what usually happens: the obligatory noob doesn't join the fight for the center outpost fast enough. It's 4v3 there now, making one team lose the battle for center. Once they have secured center, they spread north and south. The team that lost the battle for center is already trying to capture north and south but will get shot from behind by the tanks coming from center. So now, after 5 minutes into the game, either all or at least 2 of the outposts including the important center one belong to one team - already setting the course of the game.
If I am in the team with the noob, I instantly hope he leaves because now the income boost can turn the game around. Not nice, but really, i want to win.
If the center team cannot prevent north and south being taken by the other team it might be an indication of a balanced game. But that's very rare.
I also just played a game and tried to stick to only bust laser and rocket barrages. Verdict: if you remove the scientist shop, you will have to re-balance all tanks. Try try taking down a laser tank with MK4 armor with only burst lasers. It's a pain in the ass if not to say an impossible task. It gets damaged so slowly, that the player can easily retreat to find shelter in his own advancing troops.
Just leaving the shop in is much easier. And although I agree that in a 4v4 it takes quite some time to get the high end stuff...from my experience this promotes team play. Nothing wrong with that.
I agree though that making upgrades a little cheaper might be worth a try.
@caparsmitth: You can drop your stuff on the ground. In the back of your base is a good place (where the landing pad is). Just don't drop burst lasers, they will disappear!