Ok sorry, i just was frustrated because of some assholes just abuse balance storming off at start and then single-handedly destroying whole enemy team.
My point is - remove goliath. At the beginning there should be only the tank. You really need to change your philosophy towards player progression - whole line of walkers gives players unfair speed advantage yet THEY are the ones who have emp to disable fast moving targets. Wtf?
You mainstreamed classes too much making tanks bulky and slow and walkers fast and far more deadlier. My point is - mixit up a little - i mean - that example of a player were player ON GOLIATH, easily crushing whole party of tank players, in 3v1 fight and then hastly getting away after he scored only 2 additional early kills. Do you really that biped walker will be faster than tank which is designed to roll? Quadruped maybe, not biped.
If you remember battleships you know there weren't 2 lines - fast ships which has a bit less hp but dominate, and slow ships which even being tanky still suck ass big times. No - there were different ships with completely different abilities. And yes - stealth submarine were cheating shit then and it's cheating shit now.
1. Slow tanks must compensate their speed by ability to time the attack ,stun the opponent, deliver huge blow then roll away. Or general ability to increase firing distance of weapons because of more steadier foundation - like to example - walkers have better speed, but their weapon range is 2/3 - that way harrasment with goliath will be not an option.
2. Throw away laser completely. If you don't understand why - read gaming theory on dominant strategy - that laser is exactly that. Either buy 2 in the beginning or suck ass whole game. There is virtually no way to counter goliath with 2 lasers and emp ability at the beginning.
3. Remove walker's emp shot and give it to the tanks. Or introduce supportive casters line so those would be able to stun. Again - argument in support of that goliath at the beggining and through out the game is that 1button win dominant strategy. It leaves other players who want to play tanks virtually no ability to counter it without alot of grinding WHICH will backfire because while they grind to counquer that op goliath - goliath player grinds to upgrade it and in the end - i see goliath killing 2 lasertanks. Yeah, fucking balance present. NOT.
4. Not enough weapons. There is simply not enough weapons and what choices are there either dominant strategy (laser + missle barrage) or do jack shit against fast walkers (artillery aoe cannons).
There are a lot of additional notes. Like rank. At this point - rank shows k/d ratio. I say fuck this - make rank to represent total XP gained by player*win or /loss. That will encourage players to play more even if they're not very good at this - because there will be sense of progression.
When you encounter op cocksucker which has jack shit of a life and learned all balance holes and constantly abuse them driving you to 3/21 k/d and your rank suddenly goes 2 points beyond - there is no sense of accomplishment but rather sense of "that this map sucks, fuck it, i'm gonna play something else. " kind of sense, if you know what i'm saying.
The only imbalance I can see with the walker is it's ability to increase sight range. That is a real kicker, especially at night.
Also, there is no real imbalance in the two starting tanks. The "tank" has more HP, a damage reducing and a direct damage dealing ability. I see so many kills being made in the beginning by shooting that tank rocket at goliaths when they are going to retreat...
In fact, I don't like the higher tier walkers (and you will see, that other good players will also not use them). The abilities they have aren't very useful compared to the MK2 tank which can be really buffed up, which is much more useful then being fast and being able to stun someone. What's that worth if you cannot kill you opponent because his tank is so much better? I would say, buff the walker ranger to make them viable.
Also, cloaking is not a problem. If you need inventory space for the radar, just avoid the cloaker (he is super slow with cloak) until you have combined two more items. Then buy a radar for 600 and completely render their investment in a fragile cloaky tank useless. Plus you now see them coming a lot earlier and have an advantage.
The real problem with the cloaking tanks is their "almost guaranteed damage" ability.
Here is also you counter to the goliath: if you want to force the opponent to step away from goliath walker this is you answer. Because the homing missile does more damage then a walker with MK4 shields, basically one-shotting them. The missile can in theory be outrun, but that happens very rarely. The counter the missile is the damage reducing abilities of the tanks.
At the moment, there is a counter to basically everything, there is not a single ways to play that cannot be countered somehow, although some counters involve team play which may be difficult with a random public party.
What I so agree with though is the stupid dominance of lasers and rockets (as I have mentioned before). Rockets seem to always do 100% damage, no matter if shield or armor are hit, and have decent range. They are the obvious choice. Going down the "zapper"-path is a bad idea, zappers are affected by armor and most tanks, with the exception of the protoss', have more armor hp then shield hp. So you burn through the opponents shields really fast just to find yourself not doing any damage any more against a 10 armor tank with 5000+ hp.
Also, Doom. It's basically invincible with 15 armor.
None the less I would suggest fixing the bugs before working on further improving the content of map.
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Confirmed:
Lasertank attacks with tank laser when right clicking a target
tank laser cannot be outrun and continues firing
tank laser can be interrupted by moving the laser tank (I consider this a bug - please correct me)
Hydras attack bunker of southern entrance of team 2 though the woods
combined items may disappear when dropped
health packs are sometimes consumed upon use and disappear
weapons with more than one projectile still shoot after being killed in middle of the shot
Need confirmation:
barracks can still be build on the plateau with the MK4 shop
sometimes can sell items which were dropped by opponents in their base several times, getting the payout each time before the item vanishes from inventory
I would rather agree with you. And its good to hear that the balance isnt completely broken :-D My experience is that cloak is no auto-win at all. The lesser speed and armor is penalty enough. And the torpedo... I have to admit it is kind of a ragequit-weapon because of its high damage and slow speed but I simply love it :-D
At the moment I am working on a new release. Reconfigured the complete save-algorithm, so hopefully save losses will be solved with this update (but a last, complete stats reset is nessessary). Should be released soon after some testing.
In general you have to consider that I am not a professional game designer. So I think of a cool feature/weapon, implement it the way my skills allow and choose stats I think COULD work. So approval and feedback is important. So please keep saying what you think is inbalanced. But also remember that there is the possibility that you maybe simply dont get the counter. Rockets are affected by armor, but at no special rate. I dont think simply remove rockets and laser is a good idea but they may need tweaks. Simply damage reduction?
That brings me to a question: What do you think of the current armor system.
At the moment, every point in armor absorbs 5% of incoming HP-damage (normal case). The alternative is to say each point in armor absorbs a fix amount of damage point (this is the standart SC2 mechanic). Also Damage against different attributed units is modified (e.g. +25% vs. biological, etc - depends on the weapon used).
The second system brings more tactical dept (weapons with less damage/higher attack rate are far less effective against armor) but is very difficult to balance out. In stock starcraft the amount of weapons is more limited and also the armor upgrades stop after 3 steps.
I choosed the procentual way because for me I cant figure out a way to balance the other method. Its very very difficult right now even with the easier approach. But whats your ideas? Keep the system or change it?
Team up with someone or make public release of the map for modding - call it turret moba kit. Because that's basically what it is - a moba type of the game where you mount automated turrets on hero and don't micromanage attacks themselves.
In general you have to consider that I am not a professional game designer.
That isn't really an argument. There is a sea of a books about game design, whole youtube channel of professional game design just filled with tips (Extra credits), and you trying to push the excuse that "I am not a professional game designer". For gods sake - if you cannot deliver - don't bother in the first place.
And i'm not saying that because i want to taunt you, i'm saying this because this map has potential of becoming most high-ground standing map in starcraft II alongside Squadron TD and Aeon of storms. Only thing it need - is a right hand to balance all the crap out until it is solid ground for competitive gameplay.
Put in paypal donate button, aim to spend more time on this map and attract people - that's how you get it done in the first place. But when i see one asshole wrecking whole game and whole other team leaving - that's when you loose your audience and your map spins down from "popular" to "shit".
Don't find excuses - accept "unbiased environment, where it's okay for them to rip it to shreds", and start balancing.
Okay to make one thing clear: I do modding as a hobby. I dont want to make lots of money with it. I made a map and I'm happy when other people like and play it and I try to evolve the map.
BUT I have a lot other things to do in my life and dont have the time (and the enthusiasm) to read/watch through hundreds of books or youtube tutorials. I'm not saying that I dont care about learning new things but there are much more important things for me to do than modding a Starcraft map. You may know that the current state of the map already needed "some" knowledge of the editor that did not came out of nowhere.
So if you want to help give constructive feedback (and "Throw away laser completely. If you don't understand why - read gaming theory on dominant strategy" isnt). When I said I'm not a professional designer I should have added "and I dont want to be".
Deal with it or not. I know lots of people who like the map and try to help in a much more constructive way. And if you are frustrated because others abuse balance issues just report them and I'll try to fix it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominance
I wasn't saying to make a lot of money off of it - i was saying try taking donations for it to spend more time on it instead of having no time and halfassing because of that.
I think that at the moment a lot of the things that feel like "balance issues" really is a lot more experience on one of the players involved. There are probably 15-20 regulars (EU servers) who really know how to play and who have the skill to single handedly take down the other team if it consists of inexperienced noobies.
In the evening you cannot make a public game without at least having one of them in game totally dominating the opponents team.
(I would even say without the regulars, there wouldn't be games. We are the ones waiting 20+ minutes in the lobby to get at least a 3v3 going.)
Just food for thought. The skill differences between the players is HUGE at the moment.
Think again. One goliath. against 3 other guys in whole outfit can mow them down. even in dota2 with all it's imbalances 3 guys with barebones minimum arnament can take down most overpowered single just by shear amount of abilities and basic skill applied. Not in this map, nope. So yea - your point is completely invalid.
If its the case that one goliath against 3 others wins, it seams like a balance issue. So smoke_TH would be right. So whats the solution? Too weak tank abilities? To unbalanced weapons? In general: If you THINK one strategy is a "instant win" just say it. Feedback like this helps to improve the map.
Its not the aim to make the game only playable by pro-gamers, so its not good if the only way to win is to know "the only" strategy. The option to customise tanks (like in battleships, right?) is an interesting option. I also thought about it but put it behind other features because it seams very, very hard to balance. And balance is, even now, the main point ^^
I wasn't saying to make a lot of money off of it - i was saying try taking donations for it to spend more time on it instead of having no time and halfassing because of that.
So what do you think of me? Someone sends me 5 bucks and I free up time equivalent to the amount of money donated? No. Its fun for me to work on the map, but only if I have free time. So just in case, someone has to pay a real lot of money to stop me from doing other things... like my regular work. :-D And I doubt the map is worth it ;)
But anyway... I'll try to release the next update tomorrow/today (depending on your time zone). Just have to try to validate that the new save system isnt broken.
So what do you think of me? Someone sends me 5 bucks and I free up time equivalent to the amount of money donated?
Dude, you really underestimate power of donations. If people enjoy playing something - they will give out donations like a hot cakes. Ever head of dwarf fortress? It's creator living and developing game on constant stream of donations. Pretty neat, huh?
My point is - best appraisal of success equals how much money people willing to give you out. You just need to push right buttons and encourage them to donate, saying that you have very little time on debugging the map and you would like to, IF you had money to do so. map is good enough, i don't see why people would not spare you 2-3 bucks on coffee. That's one guy. multiply by say 500. that 1000 dollars just because you made their day with a good game.
Back to balance. Additional suggestion is to give tanks more range for the weapons. Not a lot - just a bit to compensate.
Think about it like balance between GDI and NOD - tanks are GDI - fatter, stronger, have range. walkers are NOD on the other hand is light and swift and prefer hit and run tactics over constant tough standing position.
But that's poor man's version of battleships really - in battleships you didn't had that strict splicing onto 2 classes - you had variable ships which had their roles - scouts, assassins, tanks, mega-tanks (think of juggernaut as doomhammer), aggro, casters (pirate ship which ults in load of miniships which desolate and decimate surrounding enemies then retreat back to hull to example), also trader mission which was fun addition to regular things.
Modifying weapon range is not that easy because of the system, the weapons work in this map (periodic search effects to immitate the "phoenix fire"). So the balancing has to happen without touching this. I'll look over the abilities and try to equal the first tanks in a first step.
Battleships has tons of content. So thats still a big job to do. But not everything has to be striktly copied from the original. :) These two tank lines are a first attempt but there has to be more to come.
I agree that, at the moment, the first walker has more useful abilities than the first tank. the speed boost + emp movement stun makes it great at catching weakened enemies, as well as for making a quick escape. The extra sight range helps a lot during night time. And the regenerative hull lets you stay in combat for longer (you don't need to waste time retreating back to base and then travelling to the front lines again).
The tank's abilities are more lacklustre in comparison. There's the armor upgrade, which is nice because enemies take longer to kill you, the health upgrade, which is ok, that damage reducing shield, which is useful for the first few hits, and that homing missile, which in my opinion is probably the most useful ability despite it's mediocre damage output.
Dude, you really underestimate power of donations. If people enjoy playing something - they will give out donations like a hot cakes. Ever head of dwarf fortress? It's creator living and developing game on constant stream of donations. Pretty neat, huh?
Hahahahahahahahahaahaaaahaaaaaaa.......
Oh, wow.
You know that map called Squadron Tower Defense? Up until a few weeks ago it was the #1 played map on EU. For years.
I was pretty involved in this map as one of the best players in Europe by that time, helping testing the map with the dev (when tsjnsn left and Swentz took over) in private games, being active on the forums etc. The forum had a "donate" button pretty well visible on the side of the site.
Now your estimation of 1000$ would actually be in an accurate range if you divided that by 50. For the most played map on EU. For years.
That's also the reason for removal of the button when the design was overhauled.
I hope that opened your eyes.
Now back to balance: I don`t really understand why weapons have different ranges. They already have features that distinguish them, I see no need for lasers to have the longest and mini guns to have to shortest range. I think it would be worth testing with all weapons having a range of...I don't know, 6-7 sounds about right.
And that sight range increase in the walker really needs to either go or have a way to counter it (as i have already suggested once, make the radar increase sight range, too).
Just uploaded a new version. Mainly interface changes I planned for a long time. But also some bugfixes, balancing and experimental features.
Also a complete new save system that hopefully solves the problems with lost stats etc. But its likely that there might be bugs. So please report issues with lost saves etc (the first time you play the stats will be reseted due to the new system).
Because it took more work than expected I dont had time to implement balance changes for the first vehicles. Next update. But first I'm out for about 1-2 weeks. Hopefully nothing is seriously broken.
Hm... I like that idea. Battleships had different ranges, nearly same speed but mainly not special abilities, or did it? I wanted to try a different approach but it seams it was not the best idea to differ 4 weapon attributes (range, speed, damage, extra attributes) as the balancing seams to get not really better. I think maybe its worth a try to equal mosts weapons range (exept for e.g. mortars)
I disagree. We each have 6 inventory slots. The one I spent on radar could have been an item from the scientist shop. In a head on fight, even if detected, the banshee has a massive advantage. The only true balance is if I used the banshee too (forcing them to get a radar) but I may not always want to do that.
Agreed. It would be nice to have more weapons with 8-12 range to reduce micromanagement of movement just so I can shoot properly. I usually stay behind the infantry forces anyway. I see a common complaint from players that weapons don't work but in fact they don't move close enough with their autocannons.
Hm.. cloaked units are quite weak and even slower when cloaked. This should be enough to annihilate their advantage when the enemy has radar. At least that was the plan. So you think this is not the case?
Hm.. cloaked units are quite weak and even slower when cloaked. This
should be enough to annihilate their advantage when the enemy has radar.
At least that was the plan. So you think this is not the case?
I think this is the case from what I have seen. At first the cloaker has the advantage and can get 2 or 3 "surprise!"-kills before someone has a radar or a tank with damage reduction/invulnerability to negate the missile. The cloaking tanks are, from my perspective, "one trick ponies". They become useless once you get how that trick works.
Random thoughts about the new version in classical mode:
- OMG yes, shops stay on the same page after buying something!
Edit: not all shops do that ... sadly.
- initial Zerg units occupying the outposts seem a little too strong
- conquerors are awesome!
- still no possibility to sell/destroy barracks
serious problems:
- still possible to abuse the plateau by the advanced shop to place barracks (it's seriously broken, please fix)
- initial zerg units fight with zerg hunter squads at the northern outpost, damaging the zerg randomly and giving one side an advantage (killed all zeglins on the northern side)
- troop balance is completely off!!!
If left alone, southern forces pushed norther back slowly, collecting so many tankbusters on their way, that they were able to seriously damage the bunker and bring it down to 5.000 out of 15.000 hp. When northern troops then finally pushed back, they themselves massed so many tankbusters that they easily destroyed the vulcan defense of the southern entrance.
It's so bad that south broke parts of the base defenses (!!!) at the 20 minute mark!
And now that I have watched the replay, I know what the problem is: the additional spawns you created aren't synced with the landing troops. here is what happens: the "main army" is held up more often to fight against small gangs which the army itself loses no tankbusters to, but gives the reinforcements enough time to catch up with the main army. over the whole length of the path it's possible to mass up to 26 tankbusters before reaching the first defenses. and with intense damage they do they just walk through base defenses as if they were cardboard. when the first defenses are down it gets even worst as now the path is even longer so even 30 tankbusters can attack the base defenses at times.
It's broken...
Edit: Tried it another 2 times with less devastating results. Maybe the constellation in my first try was unlucky?
I also have another idea which I has in mind for a long time but always couldn't remember when posting here: make building kills a team reward. Right now everyone just tries to get the last shot off to "steal" the kill and everyone involved gets pissed off when a tankbuster lands the last kill and no one gets the minerals. I think it would promote team play and it would be more balanced, since no one gets money if a tankbuster gets the last shot off. but if the opponents team manages to destroy the same building of the opponents team they get the money and have an advantage, although the other team also destroyed the building...but didn't get anything. You get the point.
Sorry I answer again, but...how does the xp-system work? I just tried the laser tank fix, meaning I bought the laser tank and nothing else, no weapons but I still got XP when I moved with my own troops?
Please explain. Thanks! _________
If you encounter a bug, please copy and paste this post and add your bug to it. Please add bugs you found first to the "need confirmation" part. The next player who encounters this bug please copy and paste the post and move the bug to "confirmed". If you cannot confirm it, please don't delete it from list.
Also, please copy this text.
Confirmed:
- combined items may disappear when dropped
- health packs are sometimes consumed upon use and disappear
- weapons with more than one projectile still shoot after being killed in middle of the shot
- being in the circle when destroying/killing an opponent during capturing does NOT stop the countdown until circle is left
Need confirmation:
- tank laser cannot be outrun and continues firing
- barracks can still be build on the plateau with the MK4 shop
- sometimes can sell items which were dropped by opponents in their base several times, getting the payout each time before the item vanishes from inventory
XP are given to any player near (dont know at the moment if its the full amount or just a fraction.. its a stock sc2 mechanic)
Every unit/structure one of the armys kills also gives a kill reward. the minerals are taken by the army and divided under the players with the next periodic income as its the case with every minerals one of the armys earns.
The new spawning system is more likely to produce such "extreme" results as you encountered, yes. I added a new, more asynchron troop source to have more "in between" troops on the map. So less time with no troops between the main waves. Also the frequency of this troops can be altered more easily (no incoming transport that takes time, no fix training-abilities like in barracks) and is altered by different starting conditions.
Please check if some of the weapons still fire at dead targets and if the lasertank laser still cannot be outrun. Both should be fixed. (or at least a possible source). And.. whats the problem with being able to build on the plateaus?
The problem is that there is only one way up. It's basically impossible for the opponent's team to get up there, with all the troops coming down the ramp, tanks on the high ground shooting from safety and defense turrets taking hits off of tanks and dealing good damage.
And since the ramp is so small, it can be blocked so that the spawning troops are stuck. You can mass up hundreds of troops which will lead right to victory when released. And since the ramp can be blocked, the opponent's team doesn't even know there are barracks there. Usually the troops coming down the ramp give it away but if there aren't any troops...
There is simply too much exploit potential. At the moment it's a "I win" button.
m00h
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@Freddy2287:
Ok sorry, i just was frustrated because of some assholes just abuse balance storming off at start and then single-handedly destroying whole enemy team.
My point is - remove goliath. At the beginning there should be only the tank. You really need to change your philosophy towards player progression - whole line of walkers gives players unfair speed advantage yet THEY are the ones who have emp to disable fast moving targets. Wtf?
You mainstreamed classes too much making tanks bulky and slow and walkers fast and far more deadlier. My point is - mixit up a little - i mean - that example of a player were player ON GOLIATH, easily crushing whole party of tank players, in 3v1 fight and then hastly getting away after he scored only 2 additional early kills. Do you really that biped walker will be faster than tank which is designed to roll? Quadruped maybe, not biped.
If you remember battleships you know there weren't 2 lines - fast ships which has a bit less hp but dominate, and slow ships which even being tanky still suck ass big times. No - there were different ships with completely different abilities. And yes - stealth submarine were cheating shit then and it's cheating shit now.
1. Slow tanks must compensate their speed by ability to time the attack ,stun the opponent, deliver huge blow then roll away. Or general ability to increase firing distance of weapons because of more steadier foundation - like to example - walkers have better speed, but their weapon range is 2/3 - that way harrasment with goliath will be not an option.
2. Throw away laser completely. If you don't understand why - read gaming theory on dominant strategy - that laser is exactly that. Either buy 2 in the beginning or suck ass whole game. There is virtually no way to counter goliath with 2 lasers and emp ability at the beginning.
3. Remove walker's emp shot and give it to the tanks. Or introduce supportive casters line so those would be able to stun. Again - argument in support of that goliath at the beggining and through out the game is that 1button win dominant strategy. It leaves other players who want to play tanks virtually no ability to counter it without alot of grinding WHICH will backfire because while they grind to counquer that op goliath - goliath player grinds to upgrade it and in the end - i see goliath killing 2 lasertanks. Yeah, fucking balance present. NOT.
4. Not enough weapons. There is simply not enough weapons and what choices are there either dominant strategy (laser + missle barrage) or do jack shit against fast walkers (artillery aoe cannons).
There are a lot of additional notes. Like rank. At this point - rank shows k/d ratio. I say fuck this - make rank to represent total XP gained by player*win or /loss. That will encourage players to play more even if they're not very good at this - because there will be sense of progression.
When you encounter op cocksucker which has jack shit of a life and learned all balance holes and constantly abuse them driving you to 3/21 k/d and your rank suddenly goes 2 points beyond - there is no sense of accomplishment but rather sense of "that this map sucks, fuck it, i'm gonna play something else. " kind of sense, if you know what i'm saying.
The only imbalance I can see with the walker is it's ability to increase sight range. That is a real kicker, especially at night.
Also, there is no real imbalance in the two starting tanks. The "tank" has more HP, a damage reducing and a direct damage dealing ability. I see so many kills being made in the beginning by shooting that tank rocket at goliaths when they are going to retreat...
In fact, I don't like the higher tier walkers (and you will see, that other good players will also not use them). The abilities they have aren't very useful compared to the MK2 tank which can be really buffed up, which is much more useful then being fast and being able to stun someone. What's that worth if you cannot kill you opponent because his tank is so much better? I would say, buff the walker ranger to make them viable.
Also, cloaking is not a problem. If you need inventory space for the radar, just avoid the cloaker (he is super slow with cloak) until you have combined two more items. Then buy a radar for 600 and completely render their investment in a fragile cloaky tank useless. Plus you now see them coming a lot earlier and have an advantage.
The real problem with the cloaking tanks is their "almost guaranteed damage" ability.
Here is also you counter to the goliath: if you want to force the opponent to step away from goliath walker this is you answer. Because the homing missile does more damage then a walker with MK4 shields, basically one-shotting them. The missile can in theory be outrun, but that happens very rarely. The counter the missile is the damage reducing abilities of the tanks.
At the moment, there is a counter to basically everything, there is not a single ways to play that cannot be countered somehow, although some counters involve team play which may be difficult with a random public party.
What I so agree with though is the stupid dominance of lasers and rockets (as I have mentioned before). Rockets seem to always do 100% damage, no matter if shield or armor are hit, and have decent range. They are the obvious choice. Going down the "zapper"-path is a bad idea, zappers are affected by armor and most tanks, with the exception of the protoss', have more armor hp then shield hp. So you burn through the opponents shields really fast just to find yourself not doing any damage any more against a 10 armor tank with 5000+ hp.
Also, Doom. It's basically invincible with 15 armor.
None the less I would suggest fixing the bugs before working on further improving the content of map.
m00h
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@mOOhkOOh: Go Great idea. I lost a bit track of all the things to do. Maybe not the best solution but I dont have a better one. Like!
@mOOhkOOh: Go
I would rather agree with you. And its good to hear that the balance isnt completely broken :-D My experience is that cloak is no auto-win at all. The lesser speed and armor is penalty enough. And the torpedo... I have to admit it is kind of a ragequit-weapon because of its high damage and slow speed but I simply love it :-D
At the moment I am working on a new release. Reconfigured the complete save-algorithm, so hopefully save losses will be solved with this update (but a last, complete stats reset is nessessary). Should be released soon after some testing.
In general you have to consider that I am not a professional game designer. So I think of a cool feature/weapon, implement it the way my skills allow and choose stats I think COULD work. So approval and feedback is important. So please keep saying what you think is inbalanced. But also remember that there is the possibility that you maybe simply dont get the counter. Rockets are affected by armor, but at no special rate. I dont think simply remove rockets and laser is a good idea but they may need tweaks. Simply damage reduction?
That brings me to a question: What do you think of the current armor system. At the moment, every point in armor absorbs 5% of incoming HP-damage (normal case). The alternative is to say each point in armor absorbs a fix amount of damage point (this is the standart SC2 mechanic). Also Damage against different attributed units is modified (e.g. +25% vs. biological, etc - depends on the weapon used).
The second system brings more tactical dept (weapons with less damage/higher attack rate are far less effective against armor) but is very difficult to balance out. In stock starcraft the amount of weapons is more limited and also the armor upgrades stop after 3 steps. I choosed the procentual way because for me I cant figure out a way to balance the other method. Its very very difficult right now even with the easier approach. But whats your ideas? Keep the system or change it?
@Freddy2287:
Team up with someone or make public release of the map for modding - call it turret moba kit. Because that's basically what it is - a moba type of the game where you mount automated turrets on hero and don't micromanage attacks themselves.
That isn't really an argument. There is a sea of a books about game design, whole youtube channel of professional game design just filled with tips (Extra credits), and you trying to push the excuse that "I am not a professional game designer". For gods sake - if you cannot deliver - don't bother in the first place.
And i'm not saying that because i want to taunt you, i'm saying this because this map has potential of becoming most high-ground standing map in starcraft II alongside Squadron TD and Aeon of storms. Only thing it need - is a right hand to balance all the crap out until it is solid ground for competitive gameplay.
Put in paypal donate button, aim to spend more time on this map and attract people - that's how you get it done in the first place. But when i see one asshole wrecking whole game and whole other team leaving - that's when you loose your audience and your map spins down from "popular" to "shit".
Don't find excuses - accept "unbiased environment, where it's okay for them to rip it to shreds", and start balancing.
Okay to make one thing clear: I do modding as a hobby. I dont want to make lots of money with it. I made a map and I'm happy when other people like and play it and I try to evolve the map.
BUT I have a lot other things to do in my life and dont have the time (and the enthusiasm) to read/watch through hundreds of books or youtube tutorials. I'm not saying that I dont care about learning new things but there are much more important things for me to do than modding a Starcraft map. You may know that the current state of the map already needed "some" knowledge of the editor that did not came out of nowhere. So if you want to help give constructive feedback (and "Throw away laser completely. If you don't understand why - read gaming theory on dominant strategy" isnt). When I said I'm not a professional designer I should have added "and I dont want to be".
Deal with it or not. I know lots of people who like the map and try to help in a much more constructive way. And if you are frustrated because others abuse balance issues just report them and I'll try to fix it.
Okay enough of it. Back to topic please.
@Freddy2287: Go
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominance
I wasn't saying to make a lot of money off of it - i was saying try taking donations for it to spend more time on it instead of having no time and halfassing because of that.
I think that at the moment a lot of the things that feel like "balance issues" really is a lot more experience on one of the players involved. There are probably 15-20 regulars (EU servers) who really know how to play and who have the skill to single handedly take down the other team if it consists of inexperienced noobies.
In the evening you cannot make a public game without at least having one of them in game totally dominating the opponents team.
(I would even say without the regulars, there wouldn't be games. We are the ones waiting 20+ minutes in the lobby to get at least a 3v3 going.)
Just food for thought. The skill differences between the players is HUGE at the moment.
m00h
@mOOhkOOh: Go
Think again. One goliath. against 3 other guys in whole outfit can mow them down. even in dota2 with all it's imbalances 3 guys with barebones minimum arnament can take down most overpowered single just by shear amount of abilities and basic skill applied. Not in this map, nope. So yea - your point is completely invalid.
If its the case that one goliath against 3 others wins, it seams like a balance issue. So smoke_TH would be right. So whats the solution? Too weak tank abilities? To unbalanced weapons? In general: If you THINK one strategy is a "instant win" just say it. Feedback like this helps to improve the map.
Its not the aim to make the game only playable by pro-gamers, so its not good if the only way to win is to know "the only" strategy. The option to customise tanks (like in battleships, right?) is an interesting option. I also thought about it but put it behind other features because it seams very, very hard to balance. And balance is, even now, the main point ^^
So what do you think of me? Someone sends me 5 bucks and I free up time equivalent to the amount of money donated? No. Its fun for me to work on the map, but only if I have free time. So just in case, someone has to pay a real lot of money to stop me from doing other things... like my regular work. :-D And I doubt the map is worth it ;)
But anyway... I'll try to release the next update tomorrow/today (depending on your time zone). Just have to try to validate that the new save system isnt broken.
Dude, you really underestimate power of donations. If people enjoy playing something - they will give out donations like a hot cakes. Ever head of dwarf fortress? It's creator living and developing game on constant stream of donations. Pretty neat, huh?
My point is - best appraisal of success equals how much money people willing to give you out. You just need to push right buttons and encourage them to donate, saying that you have very little time on debugging the map and you would like to, IF you had money to do so. map is good enough, i don't see why people would not spare you 2-3 bucks on coffee. That's one guy. multiply by say 500. that 1000 dollars just because you made their day with a good game.
Back to balance. Additional suggestion is to give tanks more range for the weapons. Not a lot - just a bit to compensate.
Think about it like balance between GDI and NOD - tanks are GDI - fatter, stronger, have range. walkers are NOD on the other hand is light and swift and prefer hit and run tactics over constant tough standing position.
But that's poor man's version of battleships really - in battleships you didn't had that strict splicing onto 2 classes - you had variable ships which had their roles - scouts, assassins, tanks, mega-tanks (think of juggernaut as doomhammer), aggro, casters (pirate ship which ults in load of miniships which desolate and decimate surrounding enemies then retreat back to hull to example), also trader mission which was fun addition to regular things.
Modifying weapon range is not that easy because of the system, the weapons work in this map (periodic search effects to immitate the "phoenix fire"). So the balancing has to happen without touching this. I'll look over the abilities and try to equal the first tanks in a first step.
Battleships has tons of content. So thats still a big job to do. But not everything has to be striktly copied from the original. :) These two tank lines are a first attempt but there has to be more to come.
I agree that, at the moment, the first walker has more useful abilities than the first tank. the speed boost + emp movement stun makes it great at catching weakened enemies, as well as for making a quick escape. The extra sight range helps a lot during night time. And the regenerative hull lets you stay in combat for longer (you don't need to waste time retreating back to base and then travelling to the front lines again).
The tank's abilities are more lacklustre in comparison. There's the armor upgrade, which is nice because enemies take longer to kill you, the health upgrade, which is ok, that damage reducing shield, which is useful for the first few hits, and that homing missile, which in my opinion is probably the most useful ability despite it's mediocre damage output.
Hahahahahahahahahaahaaaahaaaaaaa.......
Oh, wow.
You know that map called Squadron Tower Defense? Up until a few weeks ago it was the #1 played map on EU. For years.
I was pretty involved in this map as one of the best players in Europe by that time, helping testing the map with the dev (when tsjnsn left and Swentz took over) in private games, being active on the forums etc. The forum had a "donate" button pretty well visible on the side of the site.
Now your estimation of 1000$ would actually be in an accurate range if you divided that by 50. For the most played map on EU. For years.
That's also the reason for removal of the button when the design was overhauled.
I hope that opened your eyes.
Now back to balance: I don`t really understand why weapons have different ranges. They already have features that distinguish them, I see no need for lasers to have the longest and mini guns to have to shortest range. I think it would be worth testing with all weapons having a range of...I don't know, 6-7 sounds about right.
And that sight range increase in the walker really needs to either go or have a way to counter it (as i have already suggested once, make the radar increase sight range, too).
m00h
Just uploaded a new version. Mainly interface changes I planned for a long time. But also some bugfixes, balancing and experimental features. Also a complete new save system that hopefully solves the problems with lost stats etc. But its likely that there might be bugs. So please report issues with lost saves etc (the first time you play the stats will be reseted due to the new system).
Because it took more work than expected I dont had time to implement balance changes for the first vehicles. Next update. But first I'm out for about 1-2 weeks. Hopefully nothing is seriously broken.
@mOOhkOOh: Go
Hm... I like that idea. Battleships had different ranges, nearly same speed but mainly not special abilities, or did it? I wanted to try a different approach but it seams it was not the best idea to differ 4 weapon attributes (range, speed, damage, extra attributes) as the balancing seams to get not really better. I think maybe its worth a try to equal mosts weapons range (exept for e.g. mortars)
Hm.. cloaked units are quite weak and even slower when cloaked. This should be enough to annihilate their advantage when the enemy has radar. At least that was the plan. So you think this is not the case?
I think this is the case from what I have seen. At first the cloaker has the advantage and can get 2 or 3 "surprise!"-kills before someone has a radar or a tank with damage reduction/invulnerability to negate the missile. The cloaking tanks are, from my perspective, "one trick ponies". They become useless once you get how that trick works.
m00h
Random thoughts about the new version in classical mode:
- OMG yes, shops stay on the same page after buying something!
Edit: not all shops do that ... sadly.
- initial Zerg units occupying the outposts seem a little too strong
- conquerors are awesome!
- still no possibility to sell/destroy barracks
serious problems:
- still possible to abuse the plateau by the advanced shop to place barracks (it's seriously broken, please fix)
- initial zerg units fight with zerg hunter squads at the northern outpost, damaging the zerg randomly and giving one side an advantage (killed all zeglins on the northern side)
- troop balance is completely off!!!
If left alone, southern forces pushed norther back slowly, collecting so many tankbusters on their way, that they were able to seriously damage the bunker and bring it down to 5.000 out of 15.000 hp. When northern troops then finally pushed back, they themselves massed so many tankbusters that they easily destroyed the vulcan defense of the southern entrance.
It's so bad that south broke parts of the base defenses (!!!) at the 20 minute mark!
And now that I have watched the replay, I know what the problem is: the additional spawns you created aren't synced with the landing troops. here is what happens: the "main army" is held up more often to fight against small gangs which the army itself loses no tankbusters to, but gives the reinforcements enough time to catch up with the main army. over the whole length of the path it's possible to mass up to 26 tankbusters before reaching the first defenses. and with intense damage they do they just walk through base defenses as if they were cardboard. when the first defenses are down it gets even worst as now the path is even longer so even 30 tankbusters can attack the base defenses at times.
It's broken...
Edit: Tried it another 2 times with less devastating results. Maybe the constellation in my first try was unlucky?
I also have another idea which I has in mind for a long time but always couldn't remember when posting here: make building kills a team reward. Right now everyone just tries to get the last shot off to "steal" the kill and everyone involved gets pissed off when a tankbuster lands the last kill and no one gets the minerals. I think it would promote team play and it would be more balanced, since no one gets money if a tankbuster gets the last shot off. but if the opponents team manages to destroy the same building of the opponents team they get the money and have an advantage, although the other team also destroyed the building...but didn't get anything. You get the point.
m00h
Sorry I answer again, but...how does the xp-system work? I just tried the laser tank fix, meaning I bought the laser tank and nothing else, no weapons but I still got XP when I moved with my own troops?
Please explain. Thanks!
_________
If you encounter a bug, please copy and paste this post and add your bug to it. Please add bugs you found first to the "need confirmation" part. The next player who encounters this bug please copy and paste the post and move the bug to "confirmed". If you cannot confirm it, please don't delete it from list.
Also, please copy this text.
Confirmed:
- combined items may disappear when dropped
- health packs are sometimes consumed upon use and disappear
- weapons with more than one projectile still shoot after being killed in middle of the shot
- being in the circle when destroying/killing an opponent during capturing does NOT stop the countdown until circle is left
Need confirmation:
- tank laser cannot be outrun and continues firing
- barracks can still be build on the plateau with the MK4 shop
- sometimes can sell items which were dropped by opponents in their base several times, getting the payout each time before the item vanishes from inventory
m00h
The new spawning system is more likely to produce such "extreme" results as you encountered, yes. I added a new, more asynchron troop source to have more "in between" troops on the map. So less time with no troops between the main waves. Also the frequency of this troops can be altered more easily (no incoming transport that takes time, no fix training-abilities like in barracks) and is altered by different starting conditions.
Please check if some of the weapons still fire at dead targets and if the lasertank laser still cannot be outrun. Both should be fixed. (or at least a possible source). And.. whats the problem with being able to build on the plateaus?
The problem is that there is only one way up. It's basically impossible for the opponent's team to get up there, with all the troops coming down the ramp, tanks on the high ground shooting from safety and defense turrets taking hits off of tanks and dealing good damage.
And since the ramp is so small, it can be blocked so that the spawning troops are stuck. You can mass up hundreds of troops which will lead right to victory when released. And since the ramp can be blocked, the opponent's team doesn't even know there are barracks there. Usually the troops coming down the ramp give it away but if there aren't any troops...
There is simply too much exploit potential. At the moment it's a "I win" button.
m00h