I don't want to offend, but your series gives off this huge sense of fan-boy-ism. I mean, it makes sense, and it's fine to be really devoted to one particular company's products, but you failed to acknowledge any other point of view.
The main part of this initial series isn't really to critique these new gameplay mechanics, but simply to inform the masses about them, as well as the rationale behind what went into implementing them. Things can and likely will still change, once we have a physical game in our hands is when I will start analyzing the mechanics in much more depth.
@Sixen: Go
I for one disagree with many of the things said both by you and Blizzard. Things like "armor is just a hidden form of health" or "weapon speed is just a hidden form of damage" are totally ignorant. A variety of stats and item effects increases the uniqueness of gameplay by more than the sum of its parts.
Ex.:
Weapon speed is more useful to heroes with abilities that proc on attack or items that proc on attack.
Armor and Spell Resist are not just hidden forms of health. They make you strong against some enemies but the investment leaves you weak against others.
Things like lifesteal and health regeneration provide sustainability but again, the investment means you may be lacking in damage or health, which, as an example, may leave you weak to burst damage.
At the end of the day though, they are just hiddens forms of another stat: armor and spell resist are two different reductions to damage that goes towards your main health pool. I agree they are different conceptually, but again, the end result is that your hp is drained by x.
@Sixen: Go
Without this variety there will never be a reason to vary your item selection... One set of items will always be best on a particular hero, even moreso if you can only buy four items.
I also disagree with this statement, the idea here is to not overload the player with similar heroes and similar items, but to create less, more distinct heroes and items. You can only have 4 of 16 items, that's a possibility of almost 4000 different item combinations. When each item plays a different role, you'll need to use different items for different situations.
@Sixen: Go
Also, the notion of a siege hero was based on very faulty premises. Yes, the objective of the game is to destroy the enemy's base, but the purpose is not to do that by outranging towers. Such an idea, at least in my opinion, takes the fun out of the game. Yes, you can say that if a siege hero is attacking your tower uninhibited, then it is your fault for not defending it - but then, if you always defend against these siege heroes, they have no purpose. So they are a subtraction from the game in both cases.
Really all this did was give a more refined role to heroes that are good a pushing lanes and keeping the pressure on (i.e: Nature's Prophet, Tinker, etc).
@Sixen: Go
I know your video series was meant to be informational, but a truly informational series would present more than just one point of view. You raised no questions.
Again, that wasn't my goal here, at this point in time, ;). In the future, once we've all gotten a chance to thoroughly delve into the content will I take a more analytical approach.
At the end of the day though, they are just hiddens forms of another stat: armor and spell resist are two different reductions to damage that goes towards your main health pool. I agree they are different conceptually, but again, the end result is that your hp is drained by x.
Just because health is the one constant factor in any damage equation doesn't mean that the end result is always the same. Every other factor varies, including the type of the damage. Specialized resistances naturally follow from that and the end result is that you are stronger against some things and weaker against others. That's not just a conceptual difference.
I also disagree with this statement, the idea here is to not overload the player with similar heroes and similar items, but to create less, more distinct heroes and items. You can only have 4 of 16 items, that's a possibility of almost 4000 different item combinations. When each item plays a different role, you'll need to use different items for different situations.
Limiting the selection to just 16 items is an unnecessarily extreme response. You can have a decent item selection without being as ridiculous as DotA. Such choices as opting for sustainability (regen/lifesteal) versus large pools (health/mana), burst damage (pure damage) versus sustained damage (attack speed) are going to be totally neglected in Blizzard All-Stars. That ties heavily into the lack of stat choices as well.
Really all this did was give a more refined role to heroes that are good a pushing lanes and keeping the pressure on (i.e: Nature's Prophet, Tinker, etc).
Again, that wasn't my goal here, at this point in time, ;). In the future, once we've all gotten a chance to thoroughly delve into the content will I take a more analytical approach.
To each his own. The point of my post wasn't really to actually argue the points (sorry, I probably overdid that). I just meant to say that your videos didn't really come across as stating Blizzard's point of view so much as advocating it. I wanted to watch them to get informed but got irritated when I continually disagreed with what you were saying. :P
@Sixen: Go
Just because health is the one constant factor in any damage equation doesn't mean that the end result is always the same. Every other factor varies, including the type of the damage. Specialized resistances naturally follow from that and the end result is that you are stronger against some things and weaker against others. That's not just a conceptual difference.
Very true, the idea here is to make it simpler though. Removing the need to do math on the fly (Lion's Finger, Zeus' Ult, etc, won't kill someone because of their armor and spell resist, even though they deal more dps than the current health pool type situations) is their goal.
@Sixen: Go
Limiting the selection to just 16 items is an unnecessarily extreme response. You can have a decent item selection without being as ridiculous as DotA. Such choices as opting for sustainability (regen/lifesteal) versus large pools (health/mana), burst damage (pure damage) versus sustained damage (attack speed) are going to be totally neglected in Blizzard All-Stars. That ties heavily into the lack of stat choices as well.
More refined or more limited?
16 seems like an extremely small amount compared to the 100+ of DotA, I agree with that. Regardless though, like I said above, it's all about combinations, being restricted to what's available, and having to make those tough decisions. I'm sure they'll add more items (and they're definitely adding more heroes).
@Sixen: Go
To each his own. The point of my post wasn't really to actually argue the points (sorry, I probably overdid that). I just meant to say that your videos didn't really come across as stating Blizzard's point of view so much as advocating it. I wanted to watch them to get informed but got irritated when I continually disagreed with what you were saying. :P
No worries at all, it's completely understandable. Like I said though, the goal was just to inform the public behind Blizzard's decisions and rationale... For now, ;).
I'm not going to lie, this whole thing has turned into a money grabbing scheme, where blizzard is just trying to grab money from another group of players because League of Legends is successful, every idea except 1 or 2 i have heard of has been terrible :P and it actually screams that they are copying Tofu, play tofu then listen to the ideas of theirs.... its sad, because it wont work out well for them... and now its most likely going to be standalone which is even worse.
The only thing I have thought was really nice, was the Ogre Encampments joining your lane when you capture them, that was pretty cool, the rest has been CRAP, people are not having issues event he dumbest of people understand LoL even with its vast variety of items.
I have a feeling this will be a total flop, because it will be soooo simplified you just attack move...
and blizzard is NOT good at making games in genres they are unfamiliar with especially on battle.net, Example, Left 2 die, Auir Chef, and Starjeweled, were all terrible I got the achievements and then didnt play them again. Then theres Diablo 3, where they pretty much removed too much of the diablo and tried to put it into the hero arena genre without PVP. I mean, I just dont think it will turn out well and they just keep tarnishing their reputation, WoW players are upset with them, Diablo players are furious(not to mention the unfair bans on the D3 forums go to any post with over 5 pages and 60% is deleted post the CMs should be fired from over there and replaced). and the starcraft 2 community is not happy with them, though HoTS does help a lot.
I have my reservations with Blizzard Allstars. I doesn't seem like they have any Devs behind it who value the complexity that drives the genre. Simplicity may be a good thing to bring in a casual market, but MOBAs aren't as much about drawing a crowd as much as keeping one, and I don't see Blizzard Allstars in its current incarnation being able to do that. No jungling, no item recipes and streamlining player roles into the Tank/DPS/Support/Siege would seem to offer less sandboxing.
A part of the charm of playing MOBAs is the huge character rosters and complexity within each hero. It offers up limitless play. Blizz Allstars seems to be set up to have linear play, where your role is pretty much defined and you're not really given tools to explore different ways to play your character. It's not like your Support character can get items that turns him into a caster/nuker, or a Tank with items/auras that supports the team with healing. I don't see that happening when I see hero designs like Warfield. I don't think any item/ability build will make him play any role other than long-range dps.
I still anticipate the game though, and I want to see how Blizzard's design permeates the genre. Even if the game is a bust, I'm sure there are things to learn from that may end up being used in other MOBAs; or features from other MOBAs that eventually make it into BAS. Blizzard might not be the best innovators, but they are the best Iterators.
I'm not going to lie, this whole thing has turned into a money grabbing scheme, where blizzard is just trying to grab money from another group of players because League of Legends is successful, every idea except 1 or 2 i have heard of has been terrible :P and it actually screams that they are copying Tofu, play tofu then listen to the ideas of theirs.... its sad, because it wont work out well for them... and now its most likely going to be standalone which is even worse.
It's a free-to-play game. If nobody spends money, they make no money. Clearly it's not a "money-grabbing scheme." Also, considering All-Stars was announced before TOFU, I find this pretty silly. Especially since only 5 or so employees have played the game, and they are on the community team.
@Sixen: Go
and blizzard is NOT good at making games in genres they are unfamiliar with especially on battle.net, Example, Left 2 die, Auir Chef, and Starjeweled, were all terrible I got the achievements and then didnt play them again. Then theres Diablo 3, where they pretty much removed too much of the diablo and tried to put it into the hero arena genre without PVP. I mean, I just dont think it will turn out well and they just keep tarnishing their reputation, WoW players are upset with them, Diablo players are furious(not to mention the unfair bans on the D3 forums go to any post with over 5 pages and 60% is deleted post the CMs should be fired from over there and replaced). and the starcraft 2 community is not happy with them, though HoTS does help a lot.
lol... Blizzard revolutionized the RTS, RPG, and MMO genres before ever releasing an RTS, RPG, or an MMO. Clearly they're bad at making games in genres they're unfamiliar with, right?
I still anticipate the game though, and I want to see how Blizzard's design permeates the genre. Even if the game is a bust, I'm sure there are things to learn from that may end up being used in other MOBAs; or features from other MOBAs that eventually make it into BAS. Blizzard might not be the best innovators, but they are the best Iterators.
^ This is very true. Blizzard took generas that were already in existence (RPGs, RTS, MMOs) and revolutionized them. They didn't invent the ideas from scratch, they just took them and made them way better. WoW is certainly old and outdated now, but it's totally changed the way MMO's operate. There was nothing like it on the market when it came out.
The same thing goes for the older Warcraft games- there were just no RTS games to stand up to that. D3 had a lot of flaws, so there's some competition in that scene, but starcraft 2 is pretty much the best RTS of it's style (shorter, fast paced games instead of longer games which take multiple days to finish). And even if WoW's not your thing (it's definitely not mine) the fact that it can still exist, with a subscription fee, after this long is proof of it's quality.
But hey, I'll wait until I actually see the game to give judgement :P
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and I was worried blizzard allstars might be an issue.
if those videos are (still) accurate, this game will be pretty hilariously bad. D3 managed to oversimplified a Hack and Slash to the point most everyone hated it (each class only cares about one stat, and one unified "DPS" value on a weapon), and even then it had stats such as armor, movespeed, regen, lifesteal, crit, dodge, differing resistances, etc. This Blizzard Allstars has even fewer stats then an extremely oversimplified Hack and Slash, on a genre that revolves around complex strategy, theory crafting, and teamwork. All I can say after that, is LOL.
Im pretty happy actually. :)
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The main part of this initial series isn't really to critique these new gameplay mechanics, but simply to inform the masses about them, as well as the rationale behind what went into implementing them. Things can and likely will still change, once we have a physical game in our hands is when I will start analyzing the mechanics in much more depth.
At the end of the day though, they are just hiddens forms of another stat: armor and spell resist are two different reductions to damage that goes towards your main health pool. I agree they are different conceptually, but again, the end result is that your hp is drained by x.
I also disagree with this statement, the idea here is to not overload the player with similar heroes and similar items, but to create less, more distinct heroes and items. You can only have 4 of 16 items, that's a possibility of almost 4000 different item combinations. When each item plays a different role, you'll need to use different items for different situations.
Really all this did was give a more refined role to heroes that are good a pushing lanes and keeping the pressure on (i.e: Nature's Prophet, Tinker, etc).
Again, that wasn't my goal here, at this point in time, ;). In the future, once we've all gotten a chance to thoroughly delve into the content will I take a more analytical approach.
Just because health is the one constant factor in any damage equation doesn't mean that the end result is always the same. Every other factor varies, including the type of the damage. Specialized resistances naturally follow from that and the end result is that you are stronger against some things and weaker against others. That's not just a conceptual difference.
Limiting the selection to just 16 items is an unnecessarily extreme response. You can have a decent item selection without being as ridiculous as DotA. Such choices as opting for sustainability (regen/lifesteal) versus large pools (health/mana), burst damage (pure damage) versus sustained damage (attack speed) are going to be totally neglected in Blizzard All-Stars. That ties heavily into the lack of stat choices as well.
More refined or more limited?
To each his own. The point of my post wasn't really to actually argue the points (sorry, I probably overdid that). I just meant to say that your videos didn't really come across as stating Blizzard's point of view so much as advocating it. I wanted to watch them to get informed but got irritated when I continually disagreed with what you were saying. :P
Very true, the idea here is to make it simpler though. Removing the need to do math on the fly (Lion's Finger, Zeus' Ult, etc, won't kill someone because of their armor and spell resist, even though they deal more dps than the current health pool type situations) is their goal.
16 seems like an extremely small amount compared to the 100+ of DotA, I agree with that. Regardless though, like I said above, it's all about combinations, being restricted to what's available, and having to make those tough decisions. I'm sure they'll add more items (and they're definitely adding more heroes).
No worries at all, it's completely understandable. Like I said though, the goal was just to inform the public behind Blizzard's decisions and rationale... For now, ;).
@Sixen: Go
I'm not going to lie, this whole thing has turned into a money grabbing scheme, where blizzard is just trying to grab money from another group of players because League of Legends is successful, every idea except 1 or 2 i have heard of has been terrible :P and it actually screams that they are copying Tofu, play tofu then listen to the ideas of theirs.... its sad, because it wont work out well for them... and now its most likely going to be standalone which is even worse.
The only thing I have thought was really nice, was the Ogre Encampments joining your lane when you capture them, that was pretty cool, the rest has been CRAP, people are not having issues event he dumbest of people understand LoL even with its vast variety of items.
I have a feeling this will be a total flop, because it will be soooo simplified you just attack move...
and blizzard is NOT good at making games in genres they are unfamiliar with especially on battle.net, Example, Left 2 die, Auir Chef, and Starjeweled, were all terrible I got the achievements and then didnt play them again. Then theres Diablo 3, where they pretty much removed too much of the diablo and tried to put it into the hero arena genre without PVP. I mean, I just dont think it will turn out well and they just keep tarnishing their reputation, WoW players are upset with them, Diablo players are furious(not to mention the unfair bans on the D3 forums go to any post with over 5 pages and 60% is deleted post the CMs should be fired from over there and replaced). and the starcraft 2 community is not happy with them, though HoTS does help a lot.
I have my reservations with Blizzard Allstars. I doesn't seem like they have any Devs behind it who value the complexity that drives the genre. Simplicity may be a good thing to bring in a casual market, but MOBAs aren't as much about drawing a crowd as much as keeping one, and I don't see Blizzard Allstars in its current incarnation being able to do that. No jungling, no item recipes and streamlining player roles into the Tank/DPS/Support/Siege would seem to offer less sandboxing.
A part of the charm of playing MOBAs is the huge character rosters and complexity within each hero. It offers up limitless play. Blizz Allstars seems to be set up to have linear play, where your role is pretty much defined and you're not really given tools to explore different ways to play your character. It's not like your Support character can get items that turns him into a caster/nuker, or a Tank with items/auras that supports the team with healing. I don't see that happening when I see hero designs like Warfield. I don't think any item/ability build will make him play any role other than long-range dps.
I still anticipate the game though, and I want to see how Blizzard's design permeates the genre. Even if the game is a bust, I'm sure there are things to learn from that may end up being used in other MOBAs; or features from other MOBAs that eventually make it into BAS. Blizzard might not be the best innovators, but they are the best Iterators.
It's a free-to-play game. If nobody spends money, they make no money. Clearly it's not a "money-grabbing scheme." Also, considering All-Stars was announced before TOFU, I find this pretty silly. Especially since only 5 or so employees have played the game, and they are on the community team.
lol... Blizzard revolutionized the RTS, RPG, and MMO genres before ever releasing an RTS, RPG, or an MMO. Clearly they're bad at making games in genres they're unfamiliar with, right?
^ This is very true. Blizzard took generas that were already in existence (RPGs, RTS, MMOs) and revolutionized them. They didn't invent the ideas from scratch, they just took them and made them way better. WoW is certainly old and outdated now, but it's totally changed the way MMO's operate. There was nothing like it on the market when it came out.
The same thing goes for the older Warcraft games- there were just no RTS games to stand up to that. D3 had a lot of flaws, so there's some competition in that scene, but starcraft 2 is pretty much the best RTS of it's style (shorter, fast paced games instead of longer games which take multiple days to finish). And even if WoW's not your thing (it's definitely not mine) the fact that it can still exist, with a subscription fee, after this long is proof of it's quality.
But hey, I'll wait until I actually see the game to give judgement :P
and I was worried blizzard allstars might be an issue.
if those videos are (still) accurate, this game will be pretty hilariously bad. D3 managed to oversimplified a Hack and Slash to the point most everyone hated it (each class only cares about one stat, and one unified "DPS" value on a weapon), and even then it had stats such as armor, movespeed, regen, lifesteal, crit, dodge, differing resistances, etc. This Blizzard Allstars has even fewer stats then an extremely oversimplified Hack and Slash, on a genre that revolves around complex strategy, theory crafting, and teamwork. All I can say after that, is LOL.
Im pretty happy actually. :)