After much consideration and helpful advice from members of the SC2 Mapster community, I have decided it would be a mistake to continue work on Crater of Carnage. I think there were a lot of good ideas, but in the end it just wasn't different enough from Blizzard DotA to be worth paying money to create. I had tried to remake it into something not like DotA, but I just don't have enough good ideas for an entirely new play format to be nearly as engaging and fun as the MOBA genre. Believe me or don't, but despite how Crater of Carnage ended up, I didn't actually know anything about Blizzard DotA when I started writing about it here.
A dota like map consisting of two people working full time (40 hours a week), one on tiggers/one on data, keeping in mind that quality level that I presume you will expect will easily set you back $100,000 at AU STD wage.
A dota like map consisting of two people working full time (40 hours a week), one on tiggers/one on data, keeping in mind that quality level that I presume you will expect will easily set you back $100,000 at AU STD wage.
And you base this on what? I'm not hiring Blizzard staff, I'm allowing people to bid their price to do the work I need done. I will pick people per feature if I have to, as not everyone is good at everything.
And I repeat for Snyder, you should give a bit more details if you want to be taken seriously. Noone will steal your awesome ideas
I don't mind sharing what my goal is, but that is irrelevant. I'm not hiring you based on whether you like my idea or not, I'm hiring you based on if you want to be paid or not. People who want to be paid to make a map will offer me their services.
I don't mind sharing what my goal is, but that is irrelevant. I'm not hiring you based on whether you like my idea or not, I'm hiring you based on if you want to be paid or not. People who want to be paid to make a map will offer me their services.
I guess my only concern is...why hire people? It's not like you can make a profit on the map...it's mostly just for fun.
I don't mind sharing what my goal is, but that is irrelevant. I'm not hiring you based on whether you like my idea or not, I'm hiring you based on if you want to be paid or not. People who want to be paid to make a map will offer me their services.
The fact is that if you can't pay a real job fee (10$/h or whatever) you should at least find someone interested in your project, you pay him less but at least he's having fun.
There is nothing worse than getting a low pay and do something you don't like...
The fact is that if you can't pay a real job fee (10$/h or whatever) you should at least find someone interested in your project, you pay him less but at least he's having fun.
There is nothing worse than getting a low pay and do something you don't like...
I already stated am willing to negotiate the fees based on what the mapper thinks their time is worth. I don't know how to make it any clearer that this is not charity work. My only preference is that you quote me based on the feature, because I am not paying you in full until the feature is completed to my satisfaction. If in the process of completing the feature the mapper has a good idea or suggestion to improve it, I am willing to talk about it and renegotiate the price if I desire the suggested change.
Edit: Also, I have updated the OP to include some specific examples of the way I am dividing up features. Remember that you can offer to work on as many features as you feel capable of doing a good job on, but you DO NOT have to be able to implement all of them. I will divide the work between the people deemed most capable and willing to work for a fair price. If you know a better way to divide up the features I am open to reorganizing that draft list.
I already stated am willing to negotiate the fees based on what the mapper thinks their time is worth. I don't know how to make it any clearer that this is not charity work. My only preference is that you quote me based on the feature, because I am not paying you in full until the feature is completed to my satisfaction. If in the process of completing the feature the mapper has a good idea or suggestion to improve it, I am willing to talk about it and renegotiate the price if I desire the suggested change.
Edit: Also, I have updated the OP to include some specific examples of the way I am dividing up features. Remember that you can offer to work on as many features as you feel capable of doing a good job on, but you DO NOT have to be able to implement all of them. I will divide the work between the people deemed most capable and willing to work for a fair price. If you know a better way to divide up the features I am open to reorganizing that draft list.
Now it's more clear, you'll find what you need easier
And you base this on what? I'm not hiring Blizzard staff, I'm allowing people to bid their price to do the work I need done. I will pick people per feature if I have to, as not everyone is good at everything.
This is based on my project at standard AU wage of $20/hour which is just shy of what you would get working in a supermarket, and the AUD is higher than the USD. Too many cooks spoil the broth, you want to contract out individual features like AoS2 is doing then it will take you forever and a day to get anywhere, especially with compatibility issues (presuming you are not talking about 1 script, 1 data, 1 terrain, 1 artist etc).
You are right, you are not hiring Blizzard staff, which is why the price isn't $200k.
You are basically recreating Sotis which is a pile of shit @ your updated OP.
Create something new, we do not need another Dota clone ... and if you are not doing any of the work what are you going to do when something goes wrong? Because if you paid me $10 an hour which is below std wage and something went wrong, and you wanted me to fix it, I would charge you $50 an hour to make up for it where you would loose in the long run.
A fair price is bullshit because you made it clear "this is not charity work" but in the same breath you want it at the lowest price possible because it is business and you expect you can either A) turn a profit one this project (unlikely if it is like Sotis) or B) you want your name on this project, which will fall to the bottom of the pop list because Dota clones are old and you already have Sotis firmly positioned as "the" dota clone for sc2 in the pop system.
If you compare Tofu from April's video to what it is now, the basic look and mechanics have not changed much ... that is 8 months of bloody polishing to get it even close to a level we are happy releasing for an open beta. Can you seriously afford to pay 2 designers (trigger/data) 8 months of pay? Or do you want some kid knockoff of Sotis which is in itself a Knockoff of a Knockoff of an original idea?
I ain't raging, I am being hard in my discussion points trying to help you reevaluate your position on this venture. You are speaking to a global audience as such with paypal you can pretty much pay anyone anywhere anything - as such you must abide by the minimum payment laws of the country of employment. When you get money involved it ain't playing games anymore, you will have people watching your every movement.
Now that you have stated that you are on unemployment and if you are "lucky" you will get a full time job you are completely and utterly digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. You are looking to hire help with what money you have and yet want to pay people a fair price and not have it charity work? That is a contradiction if there ever was one.
It is obvious that you have no experience in map making in Sc2; and as such you have no idea how long things take to get done or what kind of timeframe you are looking at to create a "Dota clone". This is not Wc3 ... a Dota clone cannot be made in a day, it would take months to do such a project simply because of how long the work flow is and there is no faster way to do it from scratch.
At the end of the day you have your head so far up your ass that you are unwilling to even comprehend anything I say at which point it is worthless to continue on with this discussion as you will go do whatever you want anyways, just try to not bitch to anyone in a few months time.
Why would anyone pay for making another dota clone?
I would be happy to do stuff for money as long as I know it has success or it will be cool. But another dota clone wont be any of that. Or you might have cool idea for dota like maps, which you dont want to share with us?
Why would anyone pay for making another dota clone?
I would be happy to do stuff for money as long as I know it has success or it will be cool. But another dota clone wont be any of that. Or you might have cool idea for dota like maps, which you dont want to share with us?
The problem with that is you can't really have a cool idea for dota like maps and make it successful as people who play dota want to play dota - they do not like people messing with their mechanics. What you can do however is say alright, I like the 5v5/6v6 hero base race concept, however I will create something totally new and different which is nothing like Dota - then you have a chance. But the problem with that is hundreds of people before you have tried and failed doing this, so learning from their mistakes unless you have something really amazing and are willing to elaborate it is better to give this whole genre a miss.
But as it stands OP wants a clone of Sotis, which as said before, is a bad idea, cause Sotis is shit and already has a very strong following - anything similar to Sotis will not stand a chance. Hero Attack is unpolished as all hell, but it is so different from Sotis that it is above it in popularity (plus it caters to a younger market).
Cut your sh1t out, or you`ll be heading for a ban like Mephs. You make good points but your tone and attitude is not acceptable, and I recall you have been warned before. Watch it.
To add to this, the prices you are saying are 100% bogus, you can easily and fairly find people willing and wanting to work and such a map, and getting $100-$200 would blow their minds.
Most people make maps because the enjoy it
So let's keep this thread on track, unless your posting to get more information , or to help the op, do not post at all.
Why would anyone pay for making another dota clone?
I would be happy to do stuff for money as long as I know it has success or it will be cool. But another dota clone wont be any of that. Or you might have cool idea for dota like maps, which you dont want to share with us?
Because I want to do it better. I guess Blizzard DotA is already pursuing a few of my goals in different ways, but essentially I want to give DotA the TF2 treatment of streamlining the gameplay until it becomes very accessible by anyone. Once that is accomplished, polish, polish, polish. I am heavily inspired by League of Legends, which I believe is the best of the current generation of DotA-spawn if only because of the lengths they have gone to make their game more new player friendly.
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After much consideration and helpful advice from members of the SC2 Mapster community, I have decided it would be a mistake to continue work on Crater of Carnage. I think there were a lot of good ideas, but in the end it just wasn't different enough from Blizzard DotA to be worth paying money to create. I had tried to remake it into something not like DotA, but I just don't have enough good ideas for an entirely new play format to be nearly as engaging and fun as the MOBA genre. Believe me or don't, but despite how Crater of Carnage ended up, I didn't actually know anything about Blizzard DotA when I started writing about it here.
You will need more details than "dota-like" of what u want, otherwise no one is gonna do it
I will provide more details than I already have once I know I want to work with you.
And I repeat for Snyder, you should give a bit more details if you want to be taken seriously. Noone will steal your awesome ideas
You better have deep pockets my friend;
A dota like map consisting of two people working full time (40 hours a week), one on tiggers/one on data, keeping in mind that quality level that I presume you will expect will easily set you back $100,000 at AU STD wage.
And you base this on what? I'm not hiring Blizzard staff, I'm allowing people to bid their price to do the work I need done. I will pick people per feature if I have to, as not everyone is good at everything.
I don't mind sharing what my goal is, but that is irrelevant. I'm not hiring you based on whether you like my idea or not, I'm hiring you based on if you want to be paid or not. People who want to be paid to make a map will offer me their services.
I guess my only concern is...why hire people? It's not like you can make a profit on the map...it's mostly just for fun.
You sure? Mapping is serious business.
The fact is that if you can't pay a real job fee (10$/h or whatever) you should at least find someone interested in your project, you pay him less but at least he's having fun.
There is nothing worse than getting a low pay and do something you don't like...
I already stated am willing to negotiate the fees based on what the mapper thinks their time is worth. I don't know how to make it any clearer that this is not charity work. My only preference is that you quote me based on the feature, because I am not paying you in full until the feature is completed to my satisfaction. If in the process of completing the feature the mapper has a good idea or suggestion to improve it, I am willing to talk about it and renegotiate the price if I desire the suggested change.
Edit: Also, I have updated the OP to include some specific examples of the way I am dividing up features. Remember that you can offer to work on as many features as you feel capable of doing a good job on, but you DO NOT have to be able to implement all of them. I will divide the work between the people deemed most capable and willing to work for a fair price. If you know a better way to divide up the features I am open to reorganizing that draft list.
Now it's more clear, you'll find what you need easier
This is based on my project at standard AU wage of $20/hour which is just shy of what you would get working in a supermarket, and the AUD is higher than the USD. Too many cooks spoil the broth, you want to contract out individual features like AoS2 is doing then it will take you forever and a day to get anywhere, especially with compatibility issues (presuming you are not talking about 1 script, 1 data, 1 terrain, 1 artist etc).
You are right, you are not hiring Blizzard staff, which is why the price isn't $200k.
You are basically recreating Sotis which is a pile of shit @ your updated OP.
Create something new, we do not need another Dota clone ... and if you are not doing any of the work what are you going to do when something goes wrong? Because if you paid me $10 an hour which is below std wage and something went wrong, and you wanted me to fix it, I would charge you $50 an hour to make up for it where you would loose in the long run.
A fair price is bullshit because you made it clear "this is not charity work" but in the same breath you want it at the lowest price possible because it is business and you expect you can either A) turn a profit one this project (unlikely if it is like Sotis) or B) you want your name on this project, which will fall to the bottom of the pop list because Dota clones are old and you already have Sotis firmly positioned as "the" dota clone for sc2 in the pop system.
If you compare Tofu from April's video to what it is now, the basic look and mechanics have not changed much ... that is 8 months of bloody polishing to get it even close to a level we are happy releasing for an open beta. Can you seriously afford to pay 2 designers (trigger/data) 8 months of pay? Or do you want some kid knockoff of Sotis which is in itself a Knockoff of a Knockoff of an original idea?
@DogmaiSEA: Go
TLDR; Stop shitting in my thread.
I ain't raging, I am being hard in my discussion points trying to help you reevaluate your position on this venture. You are speaking to a global audience as such with paypal you can pretty much pay anyone anywhere anything - as such you must abide by the minimum payment laws of the country of employment. When you get money involved it ain't playing games anymore, you will have people watching your every movement.
Now that you have stated that you are on unemployment and if you are "lucky" you will get a full time job you are completely and utterly digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. You are looking to hire help with what money you have and yet want to pay people a fair price and not have it charity work? That is a contradiction if there ever was one.
It is obvious that you have no experience in map making in Sc2; and as such you have no idea how long things take to get done or what kind of timeframe you are looking at to create a "Dota clone". This is not Wc3 ... a Dota clone cannot be made in a day, it would take months to do such a project simply because of how long the work flow is and there is no faster way to do it from scratch.
At the end of the day you have your head so far up your ass that you are unwilling to even comprehend anything I say at which point it is worthless to continue on with this discussion as you will go do whatever you want anyways, just try to not bitch to anyone in a few months time.
Why would anyone pay for making another dota clone?
I would be happy to do stuff for money as long as I know it has success or it will be cool. But another dota clone wont be any of that. Or you might have cool idea for dota like maps, which you dont want to share with us?
The problem with that is you can't really have a cool idea for dota like maps and make it successful as people who play dota want to play dota - they do not like people messing with their mechanics. What you can do however is say alright, I like the 5v5/6v6 hero base race concept, however I will create something totally new and different which is nothing like Dota - then you have a chance. But the problem with that is hundreds of people before you have tried and failed doing this, so learning from their mistakes unless you have something really amazing and are willing to elaborate it is better to give this whole genre a miss.
But as it stands OP wants a clone of Sotis, which as said before, is a bad idea, cause Sotis is shit and already has a very strong following - anything similar to Sotis will not stand a chance. Hero Attack is unpolished as all hell, but it is so different from Sotis that it is above it in popularity (plus it caters to a younger market).
Cut your sh1t out, or you`ll be heading for a ban like Mephs. You make good points but your tone and attitude is not acceptable, and I recall you have been warned before. Watch it.
To add to this, the prices you are saying are 100% bogus, you can easily and fairly find people willing and wanting to work and such a map, and getting $100-$200 would blow their minds.
Most people make maps because the enjoy it
So let's keep this thread on track, unless your posting to get more information , or to help the op, do not post at all.
Because I want to do it better. I guess Blizzard DotA is already pursuing a few of my goals in different ways, but essentially I want to give DotA the TF2 treatment of streamlining the gameplay until it becomes very accessible by anyone. Once that is accomplished, polish, polish, polish. I am heavily inspired by League of Legends, which I believe is the best of the current generation of DotA-spawn if only because of the lengths they have gone to make their game more new player friendly.