Dota has a higher skillcap. You can deny creeps and towers
I won't argue denying, as that really is a matter of preference. Sure, it adds 'skill' to the game, but I personally think DOTA games are better off without. I fully agree with LoL's reasoning for not including it: it's not as fun as timing your abilities and all that, and it makes no goddamn sense. You're killing your own units. I can't deny that denying does increase the skill cap, though. On the other hand, I will say that it really only barely does so. It's not like a game is suddenly three times as hard because denying is in. It's something of some moderate importance in one phase of the game.
and you lose money for dying which makes it harder to get your items or to dominate in a game.
In LoL you can die over and over again and get not punished enough for it, since you don't lose gold for it.
This argument is kind of false? You get punished for dying by not being able to play for a set amount of time and being teleported back to your base. If you'd lose money as well, it would just increase the snowball effect, meaning that whoever gets the first kill of has an even bigger chance of winning and the loser is immediately set down a losing path. Since DOTA already has a huge pendulum play in style, I really don't mind not punishing people who die even worse than they are currently being punished.
The balancing was OK, but far away from well balanced. You can see it still now how some heroes are just straight op but thats normal in every kind of game like that.
Care to go more in-depth? Which heroes are 'straight OP', then? Afaik, the large majority of them (60-70%) is played often in tournaments and high ELO games, with a small amount of them being either rare or considered underpowered. I can't think of one sole hero that is 'clearly overpowered'.
The other thing is, that in Dota you have caster which are very good in early and bad in late game, while damage-dealer are just sucky at the beginning but gets better at the end of the game. In LoL you can get "AP" which lets every hero be good at the end regardless the class.
That's not true either. There's a reason the widely considered 'best' team set-up in LoL is 1X Tank, 1X Support, 1X AD Carry and 1X AP Carry with 1 variable slot. Every hero has it's use in end-game, sure, but some are definitely worse early game then they are later game - there are plenty of carries.
But the thing I liked about Dota the most, are the heroes. They are so different from each other: Panton Lancer, Morphling, Evoker etc...
In LoL its like every new Hero has spells someone else already had. Just my opinion but I just find the heroes a lot cooler than the one in LoL.
Heroes are obviously preference based as well, but I will argue that the heroes in LoL aren't exactly "alike"? There's plenty of heroes with spells I've never before seen in any game at all. Janna's Whirlwind, for example. Morganna's shackle (ultimate). Shen's teleport (ultimate). Plenty of original stuff to go around.
Just noticed: I can't read a post by Mozared without reading it with his voice in mind.
Dota 2 can't be played at gamescom, that makes me sad. :( If they do a one-fucking-million dollar tournament with an alpha-version, why not let us play it? -_-
Its not a matter of going the safe route. Valve's whole goal was to port DotA onto source, taking it away from WC3 and Blizzard whom basically shitted on the Icefrog for years.
Here is basically the short version of the private shitstorm between Blizz and Ice. I was very much involved in the DotA community back then, have had conversations with Icefrog many times. There was a real problem with bots, and this guy on the DotA team wrote some code to be implemented into Bnet to help combat bots. Blizzard basically told them to get fucked. This kind of shit going back and forth for years between Icefrog and Blizzard. The real big kicker was when Icefrog actually spent his time to goto Blizzard... The whole time Icefrog was making DotA he was going to college to learn to become an actual game designer. After finishing school it was time to get a job, so he went to Blizzard. They basically laughed at him in his face when he said he wanted to make DotA as a separate game, while making fun of him, and ended the interview early by kicking him out like their holier than thou. Ice never really talked to the public with the kind of crap Blizzard dished out at him. I can't imagine how he felt, since his whole life is basically focused zealously on DotA, and he got his dream crushed by Blizzard. Lucky for him, almost all major gaming companies wanted to higher him, and he could choose where he wanted to go. Valve actually made the best offer and freedom to Icefrog, thus Icefrog makes ALL the rules when it came to making this game. I think it turned out great for him, and is actually a good thing Blizzard did not higher him. Blizzard doesn't deserve him or that community.
Funny thing is, if Icefrog did decide to go public to tarnish Blizzard's image. They probably would of done something to help him. Blizzard is filth, horrible people.
That is why DotA2 is the way it is, because Icefrog wanted it this way. It wasn't Valve's choice or Gabe's choice. Icefrog does whatever he wants, and the dude is possessed when it comes to making DotA full scale game. Now his dream is coming true. It will be interesting how far he takes DotA with a fire like that.
Also, DotA will most likely become free in a year or two.
I had about 4,000 DotA games under my belt back in 2007. I've laned against Merlin before several times, and counter pub stomped col with my farmed BH, arguably the best DotA team there ever was
Next Valve should make a WoW clone and crush Blizzard, they don't deserve modders like the people here.
I'm not surprised at reading that.
Well, it's sure in better hands. Blizzard is terrible with their obsessive control over everything.
Well, it's sure in better hands. Blizzard is terrible with their obsessive control over everything.
Yeah, they want to control everything, they even trademarked the word "dota" so nobody else could use it.
Oh wait...
Honestly, what is with the "I hate blizzard" trolls around here? Why the fuck do you people have 100+ posts here if you hate blizzard so much? Go buy a Source game and go make a mod for that. I hear the SDK is really advanced and user-friendly.
Yeah, I remember all the bullshit around Icefrog stealling spells and whatnot, and I always hated DotA for monopolizing W3. That new bullshit isn't worse than the previous one.
But I still think Blizzard deserves "their" mod getting stolen, so they start paying some attention to their own fans.
And personally, I'm hating Blizzard lately because I feel they ruined the custom map community. That's all. You could tell me I'm wrong, but I'll still feel disappointed.
Its not a matter of going the safe route. Valve's whole goal was to port DotA onto source, taking it away from WC3 and Blizzard whom basically shitted on the Icefrog for years.
Here is basically the short version of the private shitstorm between Blizz and Ice. I was very much involved in the DotA community back then, have had conversations with Icefrog many times. There was a real problem with bots, and this guy on the DotA team wrote some code to be implemented into Bnet to help combat bots. Blizzard basically told them to get fucked. This kind of shit going back and forth for years between Icefrog and Blizzard. The real big kicker was when Icefrog actually spent his time to goto Blizzard... The whole time Icefrog was making DotA he was going to college to learn to become an actual game designer. After finishing school it was time to get a job, so he went to Blizzard. They basically laughed at him in his face when he said he wanted to make DotA as a separate game, while making fun of him, and ended the interview early by kicking him out like their holier than thou. Ice never really talked to the public with the kind of crap Blizzard dished out at him. I can't imagine how he felt, since his whole life is basically focused zealously on DotA, and he got his dream crushed by Blizzard. Lucky for him, almost all major gaming companies wanted to higher him, and he could choose where he wanted to go. Valve actually made the best offer and freedom to Icefrog, thus Icefrog makes ALL the rules when it came to making this game. I think it turned out great for him, and is actually a good thing Blizzard did not higher him. Blizzard doesn't deserve him or that community.
Funny thing is, if Icefrog did decide to go public to tarnish Blizzard's image. They probably would of done something to help him. Blizzard is filth, horrible people.
That is why DotA2 is the way it is, because Icefrog wanted it this way. It wasn't Valve's choice or Gabe's choice. Icefrog does whatever he wants, and the dude is possessed when it comes to making DotA full scale game. Now his dream is coming true. It will be interesting how far he takes DotA with a fire like that.
Also, DotA will most likely become free in a year or two.
I had about 4,000 DotA games under my belt back in 2007. I've laned against Merlin before several times, and counter pub stomped col with my farmed BH, arguably the best DotA team there ever was
Next Valve should make a WoW clone and crush Blizzard, they don't deserve modders like the people here.
He probably didn't go public on account of this whole wall of text being bullshit.
He probably didn't go public on account of this whole wall of text being bullshit.
[irritated]
Funny that you used "wall of text" in some kind of attempt to be passive aggressive.
God forbid anyone pick up a book. "It's a city of text!"
It's a sad, illiterate world we're coming to, aye.
[/irritated]
-
I guess in some kind of analogy over this whole "Icefrog didn't create DotA" thing would be as such:
Bill Gates didn't design Microsoft; he's a billionaire. Time to figure out how this world works, gents.
-
I'm not looking forward to DotA 2; with HoN, League of Legends, and that Demigod game, the AoS-style of play has been overdone in a short period of time, and none of them have captured my personal attention for more than a week or two. I must be some kind of baddie (gogo trollmobile).
He probably didn't go public on account of this whole wall of text being bullshit.
This.
And to add to it, giving one designer absolute control over a project is one of the dumbest things a company can possibly do. Anyone who plays a lot of games from Japanese studios can testify to that one.
Does anyone actually play demigod? It'd be a great game if they updated more demigods and a new role, maybe a builder. Also their network sucks, game can't handle more than 4 for each team otherwise it's a lagfest. Great game otherwise. Too bad the community are a bunch of jerks that won't let noobs play even if it says all welcome.
As well, I think it would have been a blunder of Blizz to make a full DOTA game. Blizz's projects are usually huge in scope and genre-defining. DOTA is a custom game let's remember that. It's being turned into full products but it probably would not be good enough for Blizz.
As well, I think it would have been a blunder of Blizz to make a full DOTA game. Blizz's projects are usually huge in scope and genre-defining. DOTA is a custom game let's remember that. It's being turned into full products but it probably would not be good enough for Blizz.
I think people want it a full game now though, customers are always right, and illogical.
We will see with Blizzard DotA. Its early trials failed pretty hard and they had to redesign it. Blizzard hasn't made a good game since WoW. WC3 didn't last as long as SC and D2. D3 looks bad, so does HotS. WoW is losing alot of customers too. One could say Blizzard is on a steep decline.
There are also alot of just as good if not better DotA style maps on Bnet right now. There also is a DotA port from last time I was on Bnet I saw it. That was months ago though. Popularity won't ever make them played though. I mean if you look at it, sotis is so bad, that it will make people leave bnet for other Dota style games.
tired of reading about how denying makes no sense
if the enemy kills your unit they get experience and gold
you can prevent that. stopping them from getting gold and half the experience.
it's upto both players in the lane to out last hit one another to push their advantage into the mid game.
end of story. it makes perfect sense as a game mechanic. two players competing over the same goal through two methods. last hitting enemy creeps and preventing them hitting yours.
i played LoL for about 6 months and it bores me to fucking tears. so much so that i uninstalled it.
i dont think it's mechanics are good at all. most heroes lack individuality. it may be balanced. in a "if you want to win outfarm the enemy team since everyone scales into late game".
flash and super powered towers make it a passive farm fest.
wards last a tiny amount of time and cover very small areas of terrain.
there is no high ground/low ground. brush is completely uninsteresting.
i completely lost interest in Riot's ability to balance when in their fucking patch preview video they said "so we nerfed pantheon's ultimate. this has made him kinda underpowered but DONT WORRY! WE'LL BUFF HIM LATER!"
what? seriously? thats the stupidest thing i've ever heared.
not to mention doing the same thing with twisted fate's ultimate.
"seriously though I’m glad I got to try League of Bads, now all my arguments vs LoL will be valid. Well made casual game, donkeyshit competitive game. There is only one way this game can be played at top level and that is passive farm-lane-entire-game, with its metagame heavily reliant on a stupid free blink that probably plagued that game since the beginning of time. "
quote from chu, who became the #1 solo ranked player in a month for League of Legends.
and a final edit.
dota is a slow evolution of a game. it is not like starcraft where the rules are set in stone and nothing will change bar an expansion or sequel. it is an ever changing. ever developing game. dota 2 is just a graphics and engine update on a FUCKING AMAZING PLATFORM. the kind of thing starcraft 2 SHOULD OF had.
after all 105 dota heroes are ported you will start to see new heroes and patch changes continue to come out just as they have for dota1.
it is everything i have ever wanted from dota 2.
and for those who still arent satisfied, theres been alot of information about alternate map mods. for example fortress mode. 1 team defends and can buy traps. other team attacks and buys creeps. they can do tons of modes like this. even support for a custom map system could happen since there is alot of information for modding the source engine and it's less limited than the sc2 editor.
also whats the problem with icefrog working with S2 games
they wanted to do something different obviously. their own spin on dota. icefrog didn't as they made balance/game design decisions outside of his community run feedback.
the bitching from guinsoo and pendragon is just that. that blog is incredibly stupid. a low level valve employee who isn't told everything seeks out answers randomly on the internet and finds startling obvious information that means nothing. who the fuck cares.
I won't argue denying, as that really is a matter of preference. Sure, it adds 'skill' to the game, but I personally think DOTA games are better off without. I fully agree with LoL's reasoning for not including it: it's not as fun as timing your abilities and all that, and it makes no goddamn sense. You're killing your own units. I can't deny that denying does increase the skill cap, though. On the other hand, I will say that it really only barely does so. It's not like a game is suddenly three times as hard because denying is in. It's something of some moderate importance in one phase of the game.
This argument is kind of false? You get punished for dying by not being able to play for a set amount of time and being teleported back to your base. If you'd lose money as well, it would just increase the snowball effect, meaning that whoever gets the first kill of has an even bigger chance of winning and the loser is immediately set down a losing path. Since DOTA already has a huge pendulum play in style, I really don't mind not punishing people who die even worse than they are currently being punished.
Care to go more in-depth? Which heroes are 'straight OP', then? Afaik, the large majority of them (60-70%) is played often in tournaments and high ELO games, with a small amount of them being either rare or considered underpowered. I can't think of one sole hero that is 'clearly overpowered'.
That's not true either. There's a reason the widely considered 'best' team set-up in LoL is 1X Tank, 1X Support, 1X AD Carry and 1X AP Carry with 1 variable slot. Every hero has it's use in end-game, sure, but some are definitely worse early game then they are later game - there are plenty of carries.
Heroes are obviously preference based as well, but I will argue that the heroes in LoL aren't exactly "alike"? There's plenty of heroes with spells I've never before seen in any game at all. Janna's Whirlwind, for example. Morganna's shackle (ultimate). Shen's teleport (ultimate). Plenty of original stuff to go around.
Just noticed: I can't read a post by Mozared without reading it with his voice in mind.
Dota 2 can't be played at gamescom, that makes me sad. :( If they do a one-fucking-million dollar tournament with an alpha-version, why not let us play it? -_-
I'm not surprised at reading that.
Well, it's sure in better hands. Blizzard is terrible with their obsessive control over everything.
Yeah, they want to control everything, they even trademarked the word "dota" so nobody else could use it.
Oh wait...
Honestly, what is with the "I hate blizzard" trolls around here? Why the fuck do you people have 100+ posts here if you hate blizzard so much? Go buy a Source game and go make a mod for that. I hear the SDK is really advanced and user-friendly.
I can spew some unconfirmend garbage too: http://icefrogtruth.blogspot.com/
Yeah, I remember all the bullshit around Icefrog stealling spells and whatnot, and I always hated DotA for monopolizing W3. That new bullshit isn't worse than the previous one.
But I still think Blizzard deserves "their" mod getting stolen, so they start paying some attention to their own fans.
And personally, I'm hating Blizzard lately because I feel they ruined the custom map community. That's all. You could tell me I'm wrong, but I'll still feel disappointed.
@Tolkfan: Go
Blizzard didn't trademark DOTA, Valve did.
@Tolkfan: Go
Can you sum up that link? Way too much text for my lazy eyes :D
Icefrog worked with S2 before going to Valve, but he didn't tell them.
Also, he's stupid.
But it is Dota 2... how long do i have to wait till valve agree to release anything with a number 3 ?
@PSGMud: Go
That's not very surprising even if that story is true, based on recent events. Its not purely hate, its the way the industry as whole is going.
He probably didn't go public on account of this whole wall of text being bullshit.
[irritated]
Funny that you used "wall of text" in some kind of attempt to be passive aggressive.
God forbid anyone pick up a book. "It's a city of text!"
It's a sad, illiterate world we're coming to, aye.
[/irritated]
-
I guess in some kind of analogy over this whole "Icefrog didn't create DotA" thing would be as such:
Bill Gates didn't design Microsoft; he's a billionaire. Time to figure out how this world works, gents.
-
I'm not looking forward to DotA 2; with HoN, League of Legends, and that Demigod game, the AoS-style of play has been overdone in a short period of time, and none of them have captured my personal attention for more than a week or two. I must be some kind of baddie (gogo trollmobile).
There was nothing passive about my comment.
Also I don't see what my quote or reply has to do with books.
This.
And to add to it, giving one designer absolute control over a project is one of the dumbest things a company can possibly do. Anyone who plays a lot of games from Japanese studios can testify to that one.
Does anyone actually play demigod? It'd be a great game if they updated more demigods and a new role, maybe a builder. Also their network sucks, game can't handle more than 4 for each team otherwise it's a lagfest. Great game otherwise. Too bad the community are a bunch of jerks that won't let noobs play even if it says all welcome.
As well, I think it would have been a blunder of Blizz to make a full DOTA game. Blizz's projects are usually huge in scope and genre-defining. DOTA is a custom game let's remember that. It's being turned into full products but it probably would not be good enough for Blizz.
So shocking that the community of sc2mapster (All 13 of you) are not going to purchase a DOTA game.
Move along, nothing more to discuss here.
So you happen to know what I am going to do/not do? I have been playing Dota for 5+ years. I will be purchasing Dota 2.
I think people want it a full game now though, customers are always right, and illogical.
We will see with Blizzard DotA. Its early trials failed pretty hard and they had to redesign it. Blizzard hasn't made a good game since WoW. WC3 didn't last as long as SC and D2. D3 looks bad, so does HotS. WoW is losing alot of customers too. One could say Blizzard is on a steep decline.
There are also alot of just as good if not better DotA style maps on Bnet right now. There also is a DotA port from last time I was on Bnet I saw it. That was months ago though. Popularity won't ever make them played though. I mean if you look at it, sotis is so bad, that it will make people leave bnet for other Dota style games.
tired of reading about how denying makes no sense
if the enemy kills your unit they get experience and gold
you can prevent that. stopping them from getting gold and half the experience.
it's upto both players in the lane to out last hit one another to push their advantage into the mid game.
end of story. it makes perfect sense as a game mechanic. two players competing over the same goal through two methods. last hitting enemy creeps and preventing them hitting yours.
i played LoL for about 6 months and it bores me to fucking tears. so much so that i uninstalled it.
i dont think it's mechanics are good at all. most heroes lack individuality. it may be balanced. in a "if you want to win outfarm the enemy team since everyone scales into late game".
flash and super powered towers make it a passive farm fest.
wards last a tiny amount of time and cover very small areas of terrain.
there is no high ground/low ground. brush is completely uninsteresting.
i completely lost interest in Riot's ability to balance when in their fucking patch preview video they said "so we nerfed pantheon's ultimate. this has made him kinda underpowered but DONT WORRY! WE'LL BUFF HIM LATER!"
what? seriously? thats the stupidest thing i've ever heared.
not to mention doing the same thing with twisted fate's ultimate.
"seriously though I’m glad I got to try League of Bads, now all my arguments vs LoL will be valid. Well made casual game, donkeyshit competitive game. There is only one way this game can be played at top level and that is passive farm-lane-entire-game, with its metagame heavily reliant on a stupid free blink that probably plagued that game since the beginning of time. "
quote from chu, who became the #1 solo ranked player in a month for League of Legends.
and a final edit.
dota is a slow evolution of a game. it is not like starcraft where the rules are set in stone and nothing will change bar an expansion or sequel. it is an ever changing. ever developing game. dota 2 is just a graphics and engine update on a FUCKING AMAZING PLATFORM. the kind of thing starcraft 2 SHOULD OF had.
after all 105 dota heroes are ported you will start to see new heroes and patch changes continue to come out just as they have for dota1.
it is everything i have ever wanted from dota 2.
and for those who still arent satisfied, theres been alot of information about alternate map mods. for example fortress mode. 1 team defends and can buy traps. other team attacks and buys creeps. they can do tons of modes like this. even support for a custom map system could happen since there is alot of information for modding the source engine and it's less limited than the sc2 editor.
also whats the problem with icefrog working with S2 games
they wanted to do something different obviously. their own spin on dota. icefrog didn't as they made balance/game design decisions outside of his community run feedback.
the bitching from guinsoo and pendragon is just that. that blog is incredibly stupid. a low level valve employee who isn't told everything seeks out answers randomly on the internet and finds startling obvious information that means nothing. who the fuck cares.