Here's a religulous answer (could be true or false): The universe undergoes cycles between dark matter, anti matter, and normal matter. You, specifically you, would think the universe was created, when speculatively speaking, it was just undergoing a transformation of one form of energy to another.
"I cant imagine how this would work, why, how etc, this to me is illogical." <- That's probably why you're not a physicist, correct? From that type of argument, any student who has difficulty with understanding algebra must mean algebra doesn't work. The universe doesn't revolve around you. You really should try to watch those videos that I linked; they might help you understand the universe and multiverse hypothesis better.
You're tainted by religion. You only see false reality through the myopic lenses of religion. Cleanse yourself of the taint of religion and pursue the path of science. The path of science is open to all, even to an invalid such as yourself.
By the way, I just noticed that the picture of the human in your signature bears a remarkable resemblance to Homo neanderthalensis.
[The universe/multiverse] is the uncaused cause. This requires it to have spontaneously created itself. Why would it do so?, How would it do so?, Its simply not possible and makes no sense however you look at it. From no-thing comes something. Quote:
[God] is the uncaused cause. This requires it to have spontaneously created itself. Why would it do so?, How would it do so?, Its simply not possible and makes no sense however you look at it. From no-thing comes something.
Please explain why you see one of these as acceptable, and the other as unacceptable.
There is no time before the big bang. I will point again that time is an illusion that runs across the dimensions of our universe(This automatically destroys Multiverse by the way). So only something eternal/beyond time was present.
Now repeat after me, time is an illusion x 100.
The universe looks pretty intelligently created. Very precise and perfect. The slightest change in the system would render it naught/nothing. Engineered for life.
Now repeat after me, universe is engineered at the highest precision. No luck, No randomness. x100
And its called God(Eternal + Intelligent). Our pea-sized brains can only comprehend what we know created, logical fact we cant look beyond that. We`re in the box. At some point its good to make peace with that truth. Having this arrogance, wont get you far because you are just denying the obvious and lying to yourself. Whats the point?. I mean, you believe our intelligence and consciousness arose from non-matter!, How do you then find this so hard to believe?. Granted, we may not know this God on an intimate level, but thats another story.
Here's a religulous answer (could be true or false): The universe undergoes cycles between dark matter, anti matter, and normal matter. You, specifically you, would think the universe was created, when speculatively speaking, it was just undergoing a transformation of one form of energy to another.
Is this some new theory you are proposing now? . Spare me , please. All the stuff you mentioned was created at the big bang(You know their definitions right?). The universe is not cyclical in anyway. Your loop logic still fails on itself.
God is the answer(Yes, you got the wrong end of the stick in understanding, deal with it). Dont talk `science and physics` and I dont know algebra when you are telling me complete bs.
Actually time existed before the Big Bang. Humans just haven't figured out how to measure time independent of space. Now repeat after me, "EternalWraith isn't a physicist".
The universe is far from precise and perfect. Plenty of luck, plenty of randomness. Now repeat after me, "Eternalwraith doesn't know anything about science/engineering".
Matter is another form of energy. Think about it. (Hint: Do a bit of research about thermodynamics; you have access to the power of the Internet). I would agree your brain is comparable to the size of a pea, otherwise you wouldn't deny the facts of science.
"Having this arrogance, wont get you far because you are just denying the obvious and lying to yourself." <- That coming from a science-denier like EW is funny. Lol.
Lol, you still haven't figured out what a theory is and what a speculation/hypothesis is. The universe is very cyclical like a deformed spring, not a perfect wheel. Think about it...if you are still able to think.
There is no time before the big bang. I will point again that time is an illusion that runs across the dimensions of our universe(This automatically destroys Multiverse by the way). So only something eternal/beyond time was present.
Now repeat after me, time is an illusion x 100.
The universe looks pretty intelligently created. Very precise and perfect. The slightest change in the system would render it naught/nothing. Engineered for life.
Now repeat after me, universe is engineered at the highest precision. No luck, No randomness. x100
And its called God(Eternal + Intelligent). Our pea-sized brains can only comprehend what we know created, logical fact we cant look beyond that. We`re in the box. At some point its good to make peace with that truth. Having this arrogance, wont get you far because you are just denying the obvious and lying to yourself. Whats the point?. I mean, you believe our intelligence and consciousness arose from non-matter!, How do you then find this so hard to believe?. Granted, we may not know this God on an intimate level, but thats another story.
Don't dodge.
Answer my question.
Why can a God create itself/always existed, but a universe/multiverse cannot?
You're tainted by religion. You only see false reality through the myopic lenses of religion. Cleanse yourself of the taint of religion and pursue the path of science. The path of science is open to all, even to an invalid such as yourself.
By the way, I just noticed that the picture of the human in your signature bears a remarkable resemblance to Homo neanderthalensis.
What? He said atheists lack proof and you responded with that!? I mean atheists seem to accuse religious people being 'Stuck in their ways', here it seems to be the other way around. At the moment you're nothing more than a flyer saying 'Science rules', you do not in any way seem to respond appropriately to the way others approach you or this thread.
If you actually want them to be interested in learning anything in the first place do not insult them, repeatedly type 'lol' and give them this crap. Hell, EW has often got me to read and atleast try to understand in what way the bible could be true just because he is polite and gives feedback. Stop scaring people away from science.
Edit: Wrong context of the quote by Tainted but still the same point.
The prime mover fallacy seems to be the hardest thing for theists to wrap their heads around. I don't know why this is. I'm ashamed to say it even took me a while:
It's such a simple concept, but religion warps your mind and lets you apply logic to everything except your own beliefs. Yet after I had this sudden yet simple realization, religion was basically over for me.
God is something that is outside the physical realm, or Universe.
It's like this, when you take out everything ( Universe and all) what's
left, or more correctly, who's left is God. When everything is taken
out, there's only God.
No. If you take away the universe and anything is left over, then you have a multiverse, by definition. In which case, you can take away the following extraneous and redundant properties from your god:
1) Intelligence (god can be a rube-goldberg machine for all we know)
2) Jealousy
3) Genocidal mania
4) Desire for believers to worship you
5) etc.
When you strip away all these redundant properties, you are left with a naturalistic multiverse theory. "God" is synonymous with the universe and the laws of nature. "God" could be the impersonal higher dimensional branes. This is the same way that Einstein (an agnostic) used the term "god". I know you guys like to think that god is above space & time & the multiverse & the universe & everything & blah blah blah, but you know what, at this point, you're just making up your own laws of logic that nobody but you subscribes to. This is why God adds nothing to our understanding. You're back at your starting point, that "it's magic".
The universe has not always existed. Its a proven point. There was a
point at creation.
Anybody who says such a thing has failed his physics class. I've explained this multiple times in this thread. It's impossible for us to know what happened before the Planck time, because quantum mechanics & uncertainty take over. We don't have a unified theory of physics yet.
There is no time before the big bang. I will point again that time is an
illusion that runs across the dimensions of our universe(This
automatically destroys Multiverse by the way). So only something
eternal/beyond time was present.
Now repeat after me, time is an illusion x 100.
This statement right here lets me know you did absolutely no research on this topic. In the braneworld, space & time exist forever. The big bang is not the beginning of time; rather, it is a bridge to a pre-existing contracting era.
Also, what about other theories like the Big Bounce, which don't depend on a multiverse? You realize it would be dumb to bet on anything being the right answer at this point?
Quote:
The universe looks pretty intelligently created. Very precise and perfect. The slightest change in the system would render it naught/nothing. Engineered for life.
Now repeat after me, universe is engineered at the highest precision. No luck, No randomness. x100
Multiverse & bubble universe theory allow for creation of universes with different variables. The only reason you're sitting here wondering about how lucky you are to exist is because 99.9999% of the other times, it has failed. And it's true, you are lucky, but that's all it is. The anthropic principle is worthless. Do you know why there is no such principle for history? How stupid would it be if someone went out & calculated the odds that history ended up the way it did. Pretty stupid, right? Yet that's what you're doing. But of course, I don't need to remind you why you're doing it.
Science:
1) Observe evidence
2) Formulate hypothesis based on evidence
3) Validate or invalidate hypothesis through experimentation, drawing your conclusion.
Religion:
1) Start with the pre-conceived notion that God exists.
2) Go out and look for anything you can find or misrepresent as "evidence" to support this notion.
3) Declare that god exists regardless of what you find.
You see now why I dont view this as cold hard science?. And how, its
more like a belief type of thing. Might be right or wrong(and we`ll get
to that point), irrelevant, but it doesn`t really warrant being called a
science. Testable or otherwise. Is that a fair assumption?.
Here is a very easy to understand irrefutable explanation for why human evolution is correct:
Again, the theory of evolution is no more in doubt at this point than the theory that the planets revolve around the sun.
Religious beliefs tend to become more important when the question of raising a family surfaces. Given that this is also becoming less of a priority for modern couples (get married later, don't always have kids), it is logical that religion is also taking a back seat to personal interests. This ALSO relates to societal pressures considering that there is a rise in the "need" to be independent. Science isn't telling people to postpone having a family in favor of pursuing self-interests.
We're living in a fairly selfish age where youth are encouraged both to conform and focus on their own needs. Those needs being ones that align with social expectations such as sexual reputation. Being a virgin past high school is taboo. What does that have to do with science? Drug use is moving towards legal recreational consumption. Science for the win? Nudity is quickly becoming an acceptable form of family entertainment. Is that science too? The world is all about "does it feel good? Great!" It can be difficult to find religion in the midst of that.
You know there are plenty of rational reasons not to do those things right? Not to mention the fact that religion does not have a monopoly on "good". After watching my father's side of the family get destroyed by one man's alcoholism, I can't say I'll be taking it up anytime soon. This doesn't mean I'll be living like a puritan and refusing every single drink. Everything in moderation.
Why not keep the good morals and throw away the brutal, violent, bronze-age myths that are meant only to make you feel pathetic, small and guilty to even be alive? You don't need religion to tell you how to be a good, moral person.
If you actually want them to be interested in learning anything in the
first place do not insult them, repeatedly type 'lol' and give them this
crap. Hell, EW has often got me to read and atleast try to understand in
what way the bible could be true just because he is polite and gives
feedback. Stop scaring people away from science.
EW legitimately cares about this debate, whereas taintedwisp has established himself as a troll. FD did a decent job of educating people at the beginning of the thread. If he's irritated it's because arguing with people like taintedwisp is like playing chess with a pigeon. They knock over all the pieces and then take a crap on the board. Who wouldn't be irritated? It's the same reason why people like Richard Dawkins come off as arrogant to unbelievers: after educating and using logic for so long, there comes a point when you realize what Thomas Jefferson knew:
“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.”
Your a complete moron... Christians give more to charity then atheist or any other religion 100:1
And if you say your not Religious your also a fucking idiot. A religion is nothing but a set of beliefs. so therefore by definition you are a religious man.. soo go suck one.
@Hookah, You know whats funnier? "A man who married his own cousin said we are related to bananas, THAT MUST BE TRUE!!!"
I've told you before: you're tainted by religion. You must cleanse yourself of the taint of religion to see the truth. The taint of religion clouds your judgement. The taint of religion clouds your ability to reason and to be reasonable. The taint of religion clouds your ability to be intelligent. Let go of the fear and ignorance that chain you to religion. Cleanse yourself of the taint of religion and embrace the path of science. The truth awaits you on the path of science.
P.S. You sure have the intelligence of a banana...hmm I just insulted bananas everywhere... :/
Grad:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No. If you take away the universe and anything is left over, then you have a multiverse, by definition. In which case, you can take away the following extraneous and redundant properties from your god:
1) Intelligence (god can be a rube-goldberg machine for all we know)
2) Jealousy
3) Genocidal mania
4) Desire for believers to worship you
5) etc."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was speaking of everything (universe or "the heavens and the earth") so yeah, include the multi-verse if necessary. I have to point out though that I haven't subscribed to this concept of multi-verse just yet.
In any case, my point can be appreciated if you take it in the form of visualization like this: Say, we know everything that could possibly be working or at work within the realms we know or do not know, and we take that out, what is left is God.
God is not nothing, as we would perceive. It is important to admit that what we appreciate to be "existing" has at least these attributes:
1. Works and can be defined by functional law
2. Must follow a process or must take time, eternity or infinity is still a concept that assumes time as a function above it.
3. Must have energy (neg or pos) or must have an effect or involvement
4. etc.
(pls forgive my lack of proper terminologies, but I assume what I'm talking about is obvious)
God is "outside" of this. By outside, I mean something like this: when we take out the very foundation of all that could possibly exist (by definition of what we know to be "existing") all that "IS" is God.
This "IS" or this "I AM" then can be understood. Example, you are God, then everything is taken out: your body, time, space, dimension, up, down, left, right, here, there, when, how, etc. and you are left and there is no concept of dimension, thought, feeling, etc.
The concept "all by yourself" or "all is you" then can only be defined given because of the parameters by which our minds and intuition are capable of and are "bound under". When you then would say "I AM", in response to, "who are you?" then makes sense from the perspective of the person you are talking to, and since this conversation is taking place under the realm that we call "where existence takes place".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On properties of God:
Those attributes are, to my current view, perceptions of man. I don't want to write down my explanations on this. I'm still figuring things out. All I know is the new testament apostles do not see Jealousy as a virtue.
Worship and all this stuff has been clarified by Jesus and the apostles. The current understanding of worship and practices are more in the form of paganistic principles rather than what Jesus seems to imply and what the apostles seem to hint at.
In all cases, this area of doctrinal study is widely contested, and it something I am careful not to take from current views.
I can't stand up for God in defense. If people curse God for what he has done (speaking in human terms), then I would say, each people must ultimately bring himself low and wish to not exist. This is why disbelief counts for something.
Regardless, I would live as best I can for the very reason that I have and possible could have, and hope that one day all these struggles and memories of good times, the years and days of how I seem to stride to be more alive each day, etc. will not just vanish and be nothing. And Jesus, Lord, the One who holds the key, who is from the beginning to the end, who came and became one of us, and was risen from the dead by God, can spare my existence from annihilation and give me new life, either it be here in this world today, or in another.
When you strip away all these redundant properties, you are left with a naturalistic multiverse theory. "God" is synonymous with the universe and the laws of nature. "God" could be the impersonal higher dimensional branes. This is the same way that Einstein (an agnostic) used the term "god". I know you guys like to think that god is above space & time & the multiverse & the universe & everything & blah blah blah, but you know what, at this point, you're just making up your own laws of logic that nobody but you subscribes to. This is why God adds nothing to our understanding. You're back at your starting point, that "it's magic".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My above explanation would argue against this. I hope one day I can explain this view a bit better.
And if you say your not Religious your also a fucking idiot. A religion is nothing but a set of beliefs. so therefore by definition you are a religious man.. soo go suck one.
re·li·gion/riˈlijən/ Noun: 1., The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
2., Details of belief as taught or discussed.
Religions are organizations of beliefs. Personally, I am not part and I do not claim to be part of any organization, so I must not be Religious.
@Hookah, You know whats funnier? "A man who married his own cousin said we are related to bananas, THAT MUST BE TRUE!!!"
And why is it a problem for you? When you dont even believe that there is genetic relation between cousins and Bible is supportive for marriages with your cousin: http://www.cousincouples.com/?page=religion
I will now blown your mind, you are strongly related to water, its the most common molecule in your body! Even some of it was in other people body in the past!
We are more related to a multicellular organism, than to a Banana. Our evolution separated 100,000 x existence of the world by the Bible ago. It sounds more logical to me, than Womans being related to my rib.
Your a complete moron... Christians give more to charity then atheist or any other religion 100:1
And if you say your not Religious your also a fucking idiot. A religion is nothing but a set of beliefs. so therefore by definition you are a religious man.. soo go suck one.
@Hookah, You know whats funnier? "A man who married his own cousin said we are related to bananas, THAT MUST BE TRUE!!!"
"What religion are you?" "None."
"Oh okay. I guess that's your religion then." "Really? I see. Do you play sports?
And if you say your not Religious your also a fucking idiot. A religion
is nothing but a set of beliefs. so therefore by definition you are a
religious man..
If atheism is a religion, then:
Off is a TV channel
Bald is a hair color
Abstinence is a sex position
Health is a disease
Not collecting stamps is a hobby
@EternalWraith: Go
Here's a religulous answer (could be true or false): The universe undergoes cycles between dark matter, anti matter, and normal matter. You, specifically you, would think the universe was created, when speculatively speaking, it was just undergoing a transformation of one form of energy to another.
"I cant imagine how this would work, why, how etc, this to me is illogical." <- That's probably why you're not a physicist, correct? From that type of argument, any student who has difficulty with understanding algebra must mean algebra doesn't work. The universe doesn't revolve around you. You really should try to watch those videos that I linked; they might help you understand the universe and multiverse hypothesis better.
@Taintedwisp: Go
You're tainted by religion. You only see false reality through the myopic lenses of religion. Cleanse yourself of the taint of religion and pursue the path of science. The path of science is open to all, even to an invalid such as yourself.
By the way, I just noticed that the picture of the human in your signature bears a remarkable resemblance to Homo neanderthalensis.
There is no time before the big bang. I will point again that time is an illusion that runs across the dimensions of our universe(This automatically destroys Multiverse by the way). So only something eternal/beyond time was present.
Now repeat after me, time is an illusion x 100.
The universe looks pretty intelligently created. Very precise and perfect. The slightest change in the system would render it naught/nothing. Engineered for life.
Now repeat after me, universe is engineered at the highest precision. No luck, No randomness. x100
And its called God(Eternal + Intelligent). Our pea-sized brains can only comprehend what we know created, logical fact we cant look beyond that. We`re in the box. At some point its good to make peace with that truth. Having this arrogance, wont get you far because you are just denying the obvious and lying to yourself. Whats the point?. I mean, you believe our intelligence and consciousness arose from non-matter!, How do you then find this so hard to believe?. Granted, we may not know this God on an intimate level, but thats another story.
Is this some new theory you are proposing now? . Spare me , please. All the stuff you mentioned was created at the big bang(You know their definitions right?). The universe is not cyclical in anyway. Your loop logic still fails on itself.
God is the answer(Yes, you got the wrong end of the stick in understanding, deal with it). Dont talk `science and physics` and I dont know algebra when you are telling me complete bs.
@EternalWraith: Go
Actually time existed before the Big Bang. Humans just haven't figured out how to measure time independent of space. Now repeat after me, "EternalWraith isn't a physicist".
The universe is far from precise and perfect. Plenty of luck, plenty of randomness. Now repeat after me, "Eternalwraith doesn't know anything about science/engineering".
Matter is another form of energy. Think about it. (Hint: Do a bit of research about thermodynamics; you have access to the power of the Internet). I would agree your brain is comparable to the size of a pea, otherwise you wouldn't deny the facts of science.
"Having this arrogance, wont get you far because you are just denying the obvious and lying to yourself." <- That coming from a science-denier like EW is funny. Lol.
Lol, you still haven't figured out what a theory is and what a speculation/hypothesis is. The universe is very cyclical like a deformed spring, not a perfect wheel. Think about it...if you are still able to think.
Don't dodge.
Answer my question.
Why can a God create itself/always existed, but a universe/multiverse cannot?
@FDFederation: Go
What? He said atheists lack proof and you responded with that!? I mean atheists seem to accuse religious people being 'Stuck in their ways', here it seems to be the other way around. At the moment you're nothing more than a flyer saying 'Science rules', you do not in any way seem to respond appropriately to the way others approach you or this thread.
If you actually want them to be interested in learning anything in the first place do not insult them, repeatedly type 'lol' and give them this crap. Hell, EW has often got me to read and atleast try to understand in what way the bible could be true just because he is polite and gives feedback. Stop scaring people away from science.
Edit: Wrong context of the quote by Tainted but still the same point.
@EternalWraith: Go
Just a reminder: You were thinking about writing about AI.
I'm glad you finally dropped your arrogance and stupidity; this admission is all I was looking for.
@TLBarrin: Go
"I'm glad you finally dropped your arrogance and stupidity; this admission is all I was looking for."
In my experience, when people say "that was all I was looking for" at the end of an argument, it was never really all they were looking for.
The prime mover fallacy seems to be the hardest thing for theists to wrap their heads around. I don't know why this is. I'm ashamed to say it even took me a while:
It's such a simple concept, but religion warps your mind and lets you apply logic to everything except your own beliefs. Yet after I had this sudden yet simple realization, religion was basically over for me.
No. If you take away the universe and anything is left over, then you have a multiverse, by definition. In which case, you can take away the following extraneous and redundant properties from your god:
1) Intelligence (god can be a rube-goldberg machine for all we know)
2) Jealousy
3) Genocidal mania
4) Desire for believers to worship you
5) etc.
When you strip away all these redundant properties, you are left with a naturalistic multiverse theory. "God" is synonymous with the universe and the laws of nature. "God" could be the impersonal higher dimensional branes. This is the same way that Einstein (an agnostic) used the term "god". I know you guys like to think that god is above space & time & the multiverse & the universe & everything & blah blah blah, but you know what, at this point, you're just making up your own laws of logic that nobody but you subscribes to. This is why God adds nothing to our understanding. You're back at your starting point, that "it's magic".
Anybody who says such a thing has failed his physics class. I've explained this multiple times in this thread. It's impossible for us to know what happened before the Planck time, because quantum mechanics & uncertainty take over. We don't have a unified theory of physics yet.
This statement right here lets me know you did absolutely no research on this topic. In the braneworld, space & time exist forever. The big bang is not the beginning of time; rather, it is a bridge to a pre-existing contracting era.
Also, what about other theories like the Big Bounce, which don't depend on a multiverse? You realize it would be dumb to bet on anything being the right answer at this point?
Multiverse & bubble universe theory allow for creation of universes with different variables. The only reason you're sitting here wondering about how lucky you are to exist is because 99.9999% of the other times, it has failed. And it's true, you are lucky, but that's all it is. The anthropic principle is worthless. Do you know why there is no such principle for history? How stupid would it be if someone went out & calculated the odds that history ended up the way it did. Pretty stupid, right? Yet that's what you're doing. But of course, I don't need to remind you why you're doing it.
Science:
1) Observe evidence
2) Formulate hypothesis based on evidence
3) Validate or invalidate hypothesis through experimentation, drawing your conclusion.
Religion:
1) Start with the pre-conceived notion that God exists.
2) Go out and look for anything you can find or misrepresent as "evidence" to support this notion.
3) Declare that god exists regardless of what you find.
Here is a very easy to understand irrefutable explanation for why human evolution is correct:
Again, the theory of evolution is no more in doubt at this point than the theory that the planets revolve around the sun.
I'm sorry but didn't we give you similar links to the failed prophecies of Jesus:
http://www.evilbible.com/jesus_false.htm
http://faithskeptic.50megs.com/prophecies.htm
Doesn't count when it's your religion, right? You need to start considering the possibility that you're brainwashed.
Irony overload.
You know there are plenty of rational reasons not to do those things right? Not to mention the fact that religion does not have a monopoly on "good". After watching my father's side of the family get destroyed by one man's alcoholism, I can't say I'll be taking it up anytime soon. This doesn't mean I'll be living like a puritan and refusing every single drink. Everything in moderation.
Why not keep the good morals and throw away the brutal, violent, bronze-age myths that are meant only to make you feel pathetic, small and guilty to even be alive? You don't need religion to tell you how to be a good, moral person.
EW legitimately cares about this debate, whereas taintedwisp has established himself as a troll. FD did a decent job of educating people at the beginning of the thread. If he's irritated it's because arguing with people like taintedwisp is like playing chess with a pigeon. They knock over all the pieces and then take a crap on the board. Who wouldn't be irritated? It's the same reason why people like Richard Dawkins come off as arrogant to unbelievers: after educating and using logic for so long, there comes a point when you realize what Thomas Jefferson knew:
“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.”
This is just getting more and more funny: "We cant comprehend God, so he must exists. "
@Gradius12: Go
Your a complete moron... Christians give more to charity then atheist or any other religion 100:1
And if you say your not Religious your also a fucking idiot. A religion is nothing but a set of beliefs. so therefore by definition you are a religious man.. soo go suck one.
@Hookah, You know whats funnier? "A man who married his own cousin said we are related to bananas, THAT MUST BE TRUE!!!"
@Taintedwisp: Go
I've told you before: you're tainted by religion. You must cleanse yourself of the taint of religion to see the truth. The taint of religion clouds your judgement. The taint of religion clouds your ability to reason and to be reasonable. The taint of religion clouds your ability to be intelligent. Let go of the fear and ignorance that chain you to religion. Cleanse yourself of the taint of religion and embrace the path of science. The truth awaits you on the path of science.
P.S. You sure have the intelligence of a banana...hmm I just insulted bananas everywhere... :/
WAIT! I REALIZED THAT I DO BELIEVE IN A SPECIFIC RELIGION! Humanism!
Grad:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No. If you take away the universe and anything is left over, then you have a multiverse, by definition. In which case, you can take away the following extraneous and redundant properties from your god:
1) Intelligence (god can be a rube-goldberg machine for all we know)
2) Jealousy
3) Genocidal mania
4) Desire for believers to worship you
5) etc."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was speaking of everything (universe or "the heavens and the earth") so yeah, include the multi-verse if necessary. I have to point out though that I haven't subscribed to this concept of multi-verse just yet.
In any case, my point can be appreciated if you take it in the form of visualization like this: Say, we know everything that could possibly be working or at work within the realms we know or do not know, and we take that out, what is left is God.
God is not nothing, as we would perceive. It is important to admit that what we appreciate to be "existing" has at least these attributes:
1. Works and can be defined by functional law
2. Must follow a process or must take time, eternity or infinity is still a concept that assumes time as a function above it.
3. Must have energy (neg or pos) or must have an effect or involvement
4. etc.
(pls forgive my lack of proper terminologies, but I assume what I'm talking about is obvious)
God is "outside" of this. By outside, I mean something like this: when we take out the very foundation of all that could possibly exist (by definition of what we know to be "existing") all that "IS" is God.
This "IS" or this "I AM" then can be understood. Example, you are God, then everything is taken out: your body, time, space, dimension, up, down, left, right, here, there, when, how, etc. and you are left and there is no concept of dimension, thought, feeling, etc.
The concept "all by yourself" or "all is you" then can only be defined given because of the parameters by which our minds and intuition are capable of and are "bound under". When you then would say "I AM", in response to, "who are you?" then makes sense from the perspective of the person you are talking to, and since this conversation is taking place under the realm that we call "where existence takes place".
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On properties of God:
Those attributes are, to my current view, perceptions of man. I don't want to write down my explanations on this. I'm still figuring things out. All I know is the new testament apostles do not see Jealousy as a virtue.
Worship and all this stuff has been clarified by Jesus and the apostles. The current understanding of worship and practices are more in the form of paganistic principles rather than what Jesus seems to imply and what the apostles seem to hint at.
In all cases, this area of doctrinal study is widely contested, and it something I am careful not to take from current views.
I can't stand up for God in defense. If people curse God for what he has done (speaking in human terms), then I would say, each people must ultimately bring himself low and wish to not exist. This is why disbelief counts for something.
Regardless, I would live as best I can for the very reason that I have and possible could have, and hope that one day all these struggles and memories of good times, the years and days of how I seem to stride to be more alive each day, etc. will not just vanish and be nothing. And Jesus, Lord, the One who holds the key, who is from the beginning to the end, who came and became one of us, and was risen from the dead by God, can spare my existence from annihilation and give me new life, either it be here in this world today, or in another.
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When you strip away all these redundant properties, you are left with a naturalistic multiverse theory. "God" is synonymous with the universe and the laws of nature. "God" could be the impersonal higher dimensional branes. This is the same way that Einstein (an agnostic) used the term "god". I know you guys like to think that god is above space & time & the multiverse & the universe & everything & blah blah blah, but you know what, at this point, you're just making up your own laws of logic that nobody but you subscribes to. This is why God adds nothing to our understanding. You're back at your starting point, that "it's magic".
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My above explanation would argue against this. I hope one day I can explain this view a bit better.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
Prove your imaginary claims. (I know its hard for theists)
re·li·gion/riˈlijən/ Noun: 1., The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
2., Details of belief as taught or discussed.
Religions are organizations of beliefs. Personally, I am not part and I do not claim to be part of any organization, so I must not be Religious.
And why is it a problem for you? When you dont even believe that there is genetic relation between cousins and Bible is supportive for marriages with your cousin: http://www.cousincouples.com/?page=religion
I will now blown your mind, you are strongly related to water, its the most common molecule in your body! Even some of it was in other people body in the past!
We are more related to a multicellular organism, than to a Banana. Our evolution separated 100,000 x existence of the world by the Bible ago. It sounds more logical to me, than Womans being related to my rib.
Pro tip: You wont convince anybody by insults.
"What religion are you?"
"None."
"Oh okay. I guess that's your religion then."
"Really? I see. Do you play sports?
"No."
"I see. I guess that's your sport then.
I love TW's posts. They're comically stupid.
Tell the talking donkeys, bushes, snakes & trees that I said hi when mommy tucks you in for bed at night.
If atheism is a religion, then:
Off is a TV channel
Bald is a hair color
Abstinence is a sex position
Health is a disease
Not collecting stamps is a hobby
Get it yet?
No that's your priest's job.
This is fucking brilliant. I'm gonna say this when people ask about my hobbies from now on.
The theist posit is not that God created himself but that he always existed.
Right and my question is why a god can have these attributes but the universe/multiverse cannot.