I have a question, who do you atheists think of souls?
Hypothetically, everything is predetermined by the positions of matter and energy, that is, nothing is "random," with the exception of some "scientific" theories. Which implies that everything we do is already determined, and so there is no such thing as free will and that there's no difference from us and objects (non-organisms). You could say there are different levels of conciousness, of which simpler organisms have less, but that doesn't explain what a conciousness is in the first place.
And in the least, would you admit there is enough uncertainty about it to at least warrant a little interest in supernatural explanations?
Charysmatic, as a side thought, your question is probably part of the reason why the theist vs atheist debate will not be resolved anytime soon. The fact that science does not know everything just yet to be able to put an end to the debate once and for all.
Eiviyn, I guess what I'm trying to say is simple and it is in a form of a question with certain parameters.
It's a challenge to how people translate the text. And there's a lot of ways to look at said texts. As an example, your response is an example, in that, though I have no intention of saying the Bible is science, rather that "Is it possible that what's been talked about before was something we are in right now (science), or is part of that which was alluded to in those text, if we accept that they are somewhat divinely inspired?"
In any case, it's true what you say. No science has ever come out of the Bible in a literal, "I read the bible and I discovered the laws of physics", but in another view they call it a some form of revelation. But this goes into arguing with established theology, which would assume certain parameters to be there. That was the context of my post up there.
This one is very interesting:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Defense on the interpretation: (continuing on the blasphemy)
Isn't it true that Priesthoods were the "scientists" of their time? If you look at it in a way that Shamans, albularios, priests of [deity here], etc. functioned ages and ages ago. Elders were for political functions, etc. etc. Overtime this changes.
Well, at least in tribes you can see this clearly. Shamans would have access to medicine, and would hold secret of the medicine. They have ceremonies to drive "disease causing spirits", which to the microscope is simply just fungus. In a time without proper medicine, these shamans would in some form be very much like science and all its areas today.
Though they were not 100% accurate, they were the only science in those times in some form, weren't they? Now, what if that's what that text was really "seeing"?
I have a question, who do you atheists think of souls?
Hypothetically, everything is predetermined by the positions of matter and energy, that is, nothing is "random," with the exception of some "scientific" theories. Which implies that everything we do is already determined, and so there is no such thing as free will and that there's no difference from us and objects (non-organisms). You could say there are different levels of conciousness, of which simpler organisms have less, but that doesn't explain what a conciousness is in the first place.
And in the least, would you admit there is enough uncertainty about it to at least warrant a little interest in supernatural explanations?
This is wrong. Your physics is about 50 years out of date.
In Einstein's day, you'd be right. However since the inception of quantum mechanics (something your PC relies upon to work), and hence the discovery that particle position can never be 100% accurately predicted, pre-determinism is impossible.
As for souls, and consciousness, I believe they don't exist.
Why?
Simple. Take a regular person, and observe them before and after a mental illness or brain injury. Their cognitive functions deteriorate proportional to the damage.
Now, at death, your brain is completely damaged so it stands to reason that your consciousness is also completely damaged.
Regarding your last statement, you're invoking God of the gaps which has a long history of being a very poor position to take. Invoking the supernatural does nothing to advance human knowledge.
It's a challenge to how people translate the text. And there's a lot of ways to look at said texts. As an example, your response is an example, in that, though I have no intention of saying the Bible is science, rather that "Is it possible that what's been talked about before was something we are in right now (science), or is part of that which was alluded to in those text, if we accept that they are somewhat divinely inspired?"
In any case, it's true what you say. No science has ever come out of the Bible in a literal, "I read the bible and I discovered the laws of physics", but in another view they call it a some form of revelation. But this goes into arguing with established theology, which would assume certain parameters to be there. That was the context of my post up there.
Let me put it another way then.
Nothing in the bible could not have been written by a bronze age priest.
I'd also argue that religions are not mutually exclusive and that I am not aware of any requirements in Mormonism that prevent us from being considered Christian. Christianity is, at its core, the belief in Jesus Christ and his teachings through the Bible (and other works). Any other requirements for being considered Christian are imposed by the various denominations and not Christianity itself.
I would also disagree that only one religion can be correct.
Christianity
John 14:6
This makes Christianity exclusive to Christians, though you could argue that Muslims could slip by. Muslims reject Jesus as being the son of God (instead, a prophet) making them mutually exclusive.
Jews are out because they believe Jesus is not the messiah, claiming he does not meet the requirements for it.
Non-abrahamic religions are out straight off the bat.
Islam
If they are right, all others are wrong.
Quran 3:19 "The only religion in the sight of God is Islam."
Hindu
Pretty loose religion. No real requirements. Pray to whoever, even "invent" your own God. However other religions preclude "false gods" which makes them incompatible with Hinduism.
Mormon
Firstly, Holy Ghost is a requirement. Throwing out every religion bar Christianity. Mormons assert (as you did) that Christianity is corrupt after the death of the New Testament apostles. They also assert that they alone have the uncorrupt version. This, in my opinion, makes Mormons mutually exclusive with Christianity.
Secondly, Mormons believe in 3 separate Gods, who are not eternal. By contrast, Christianity teaches that there are 3 parts, but one God and that He is eternal.
Now, that's a Christian commandment broken there by Mormons. That makes them pretty mutually exclusive to me.
I base this on the rules of each religion to get into their version of heaven.
TLBarrin:
----------
If I were to answer your question, it is possible to take any knowledge from other sources by investigation as revelation from God.
For example?
Quote:
It is crucial though to accept as believers that all we know about God is what is revealed.
So what we know about god is what is revealed. Where does what is revealed come from? What is revealed comes from other people... so it is thus logical to conclude that all we know about god comes from other people; or, at the very least, is hear-say? Or has god revealed himself to you?
This makes Christianity exclusive to Christians, though you could argue that Muslims could slip by. Muslims reject Jesus as being the son of God (instead, a prophet) making them mutually exclusive.
Nearly every Christian denomination believes he was a prophet and Muslims agree. Muslim's don't believe Jesus is the literal son God because that would be an abomination. Instead, we are metaphorical children of God. I see this as a technicality because they still believe his teachings, just as Christians do, but do not consider him the literal son of God or a deity. Agreeing that he was a prophet, but disagreeing on his heritage isn't enough of a divide to completely separate them in my eyes. A mutually exclusive belief would be if Muslims claimed he never existed or is the embodiment of evil.
Jews are out because they believe Jesus is not the messiah, claiming he does not meet the requirements for it.
Both Christianity and Judaism discuss the 12 Tribes of Israel. Part of this is that 10 tribes were lost (scattered as slaves of the Assyrians) while 2 remained. These tribes are the tribe of Judah (Judaism) and the tribe of Benjamin which merged with Judah. Many Christian denominations claim to be descendents of various tribes. This is important because of an event described as the Gathering of Israel wherein the 12 tribes would reunite. So while I agree that the modern beliefs of Christianity and Judaism are at odds, I believe parallels can be drawn between core principles that prevent them from being mutually exclusive.
Non-abrahamic religions are out straight off the bat.
I refer to my previous statement regarding Buddhism and reincarnation. To me, exclusive means that absolutely no connections or parallels can be drawn between the two. This isn't the case as I can see portions of many non-Abrahamic religions that resonate with my beliefs and Christianity in general. To me, these represent groups that got a few things right, but missed the bigger picture. I respect the emphasis on harmony many of these religions promote and feel it would be a mistake to exclude them entirely from Christian beliefs. I sometimes feel they are better at being Christ-like than most Christians in the world, they just don't use Christ as their role model.
If they are right, all others are wrong.
Quran 3:19 "The only religion in the sight of God is Islam."
I don't know the Quran as well as I'd like, but I don't agree that this warrants exclusivity. To me, this says "our interpretation is the correct interpretation" which doesn't exactly mean that everything about every other religion is wrong. Imagine 2 doors representing success and failure. If 2 people, having led similar lives, encountered them and picked different doors, picking the wrong door doesn't invalidate their life up to that point. This is similar to the concept of a deathbed conversion wherein a person lives a sinful life and then "finds God" as he's dying just to get into heaven.
I will agree that Islam's reaction to people they believe "failed the exam" is usually quite extreme, though. I will also agree that depending on the perspective, choosing the wrong door really would invalidate your life's choices, but I'm talking from my own perspective.
Pretty loose religion. No real requirements. Pray to whoever, even "invent" your own God. However other religions preclude "false gods" which makes them incompatible with Hinduism.
With tolerance being a significant part of the loosely defined religion, I refer to my points about non-Abrahamic religions. Christianity does more to exclude these religions than they do, which I'd like to mention I don't agree with.
Firstly, Holy Ghost is a requirement. Throwing out every religion bar Christianity. Mormons assert (as you did) that Christianity is corrupt after the death of the New Testament apostles. They also assert that they alone have the uncorrupt version. This, in my opinion, makes Mormons mutually exclusive with Christianity.
Secondly, Mormons believe in 3 separate Gods, who are not eternal. By contrast, Christianity teaches that there are 3 parts, but one God and that He is eternal.
Now, that's a Christian commandment broken there by Mormons. That makes them pretty mutually exclusive to me.
Don't take this as an insult, but you don't know much about Mormonism based on what you've said here.
1) The Holy Ghost is not a requirement for membership, nor is it a requirement for entering into heaven. Everyone can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost if they seek it, but only by being baptized can you receive the "Gift of the Holy Ghost" or his constant companionship (so long as you live righteously).
Being baptized is only a requirement for those who wish to receive the Priesthood (required for things like Missionary work) or enter into a Mormon Temple (temple work or be sealed). It is also a requirement to enter into the Celestial Kingdom. Before you say, "but that's heaven," it's not. As I said a while ago in this thread, we are much more specific about the afterlife than most Christian denominations. We believe the afterlife has many parts, 4 of which pertain to heaven and hell: Perdition (a form of what many call hell) and the 3 Kingdoms of Glory (Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial in order of increasing magnitude)
The Telestial Kingdom is reserved for individuals who did not have the opportunity to hear our teachings. It is here that many will make their choice before being judged according to their actions and desire of their hearts. We believe that everyone, regardless of their situation will have the opportunity to make their choice whether it be here on Earth or in the afterlife. This is why Mormon's engage in baptisms/sealings for the dead wherein we stand as proxies here on Earth for those that have passed.
The Terrestrial Kingdom is a middle ground wherein Jesus can be found, but God will not. While not an exact rule, it is often understood as a place where those who rejected our teachings on Earth, but later accepted them in the afterlife will reside. They had the opportunity but refused it.
The Celestial Kingdom is closest to what most consider heaven wherein Jesus AND God can be found. Being baptized is but one of the many requirements associated with Mormon principles to enter into this kingdom. You can call it the "righteous club" if it makes it easier to understand.
2) We do NOT believe in 3 separate Gods and believe we are ALL eternal. We believe in a form of Nontrinitarianism wherein God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate beings. God is the one God, Jesus is the literal son of God sent to Earth for our salvation through the atonement and The Holy Ghost is the constant companion of those who would accept him.
Just because religions disagree doesn't make them exclusive in my eyes. This is primarily due to my beliefs about the afterlife. Mormonism disagrees with the idea that you get one chance to get it right here on Earth and if you screw up you're damned for eternity. We believe we get chance after chance to get it right both in this life and the next. Because of this, I am less willing to isolate the beliefs of others from my own given that sometimes (by my beliefs) they only got it half wrong.
Regarding Christianity vs Islam, I think you should look into haram vs halal. Specifically Qur'an, 5:3, 5:90 and 35:12. Here you can see a list of banned consumables which are "the handiwork of Satan", many of which are part of the daily life of most Christians. Is your cheese halal? I doubt it.
Islam believes Jesus was never crucified. Islam rejects the cross. Sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158.
Given Muslims believe the Quran is the literal word of God, and it literally states "but they killed him not, nor crucified him", wearing a crucified Jesus around your neck is outright rejection of their idea of the word of God.
Regarding Buddhism, they actually have a fairly solid system by which you must adhere to, in order to become a deva and ascend to Nirvana. While you could technically be a Christian and a Buddhist, there's no overlap between the two religions. A Buddhist wouldn't "know" Christ and hence wouldn't get into heaven. Likewise a Christian wouldn't live by the teachings of Buddha and hence if Buddhism is right, a Christian won't ascend to Nirvana.
Regarding Mormonism, you seem like a fair source.
I'm open to being corrected here, and I'm genuinely asking because, as you rightly pointed out, my knowledge of Mormonism isn't what I'd want it to be.
As far as I understand, God is God, while Jesus and the Holy Ghost are "lesser Gods"? Is this not correct? If it is, does this not count as breaking "3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me."? If it's not correct, what are they?
I found a few sources that stated God was an ascended man. Is this not correct?
I am a very open minded individual and if someone said to me "Hey, try this, see if you find God", I'd (and I have in the past) give it an honest go
You have? But why did you need to find god? What kind of search was it? Practical, scientific, philosophical, theological? What would you do with it in case you find itsomehow? I mean, we all are searching for something. For reason, inspiration, love or something else. But why would someone search for god? To try to communicate with it? To aquire a psychological state like self-confidence? To write a book? To get rid of the obsession and onthological thinking? To prove how religions wrong? To say "omg" sensibly?
As for souls, and consciousness, I believe they don't exist.
You dont believe consciousness exists?. How different are you then from a rock?
Now, at death, your brain is completely damaged so it stands to reason that your consciousness is also completely damaged.
And if your brain was not damaged, but you died regardless?
I believe consciousness = soul(Same thing)
And that the soul cant function or experience with clarity whence cognitive functions are impaired, and eventual death. Just like a computer cant function without electricity. The body is only the seat for the soul/consciousness.
Don't try to claim science is in the bible. That's really stupid.
No scientific discoveries have been made via studying the bible. Fact.
What you're doing is taking modern science and twisting scripture until it fits.
There is no `twisting scripture until it fits`. Thats the stupidest thing Ive heard. Either it is , or is not. Precept upon precept. Some scriptures are difficult to understand at first glance or without seeing it in the context of use and comparing it with other scriptures in the bible. There is however no `twisting` going on. There is only one meaning, whether we understand it at present or not and within context and comparing it for validation with other parts of the bible.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Scientific PrincipleBiblical Reference Cosmology/Astronomy
Time had a beginning :2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2, 1 Corinthians 2:72
The universe had a beginning :Genesis 1:1, 2:4, Isaiah 42:5, etc
The word "beginning" refers specifically to the beginning of time. However, for many years scientists were convinced that the universe was infinite (without end), and that time had always existed. The COsmic Background Explorer (COBE), also referred to as Explorer 66, was a NASA space mission designed to test the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe and apparently provided evidence that supported the idea that the universe had a beginning.
I wonder how many billions of dollars Explorer 66 cost. Yet someone only had to open the first page of a $10.00 Bible to know the universe had a beginning.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The universe was created from the invisible :Hebrews 11:3
All matter is composed of atoms. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of things that we cannot see- tiny invisible particles called atoms, made up of electrons and protons
Scientists only recently now understand that the universe is expanding, or stretching out. At least seven times the Scriptures clearly tell us that God stretches out the heavens like a curtain
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Creation of matter and energy has ended in the universe (refutes steady-state theory) :Genesis 2:1
The 1st Law of Thermodynamics states that matter can be neither created nor destroyed, and that the amount of matter/energy in the universe remains constant. If the First Law is correct, which every scientific measurement ever made has confirmed, then the universe could not have created itself, it must have been created in the past, no further creating must be going on, and no loss of creation is occurring. The Bible is the only religious book that correctly portrays the First Law by its description in Genesis of a Creator who is no longer creating.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The universe is winding down and will "wear out" (second law of thermodynamics ensures that the universe will run down due to "heat death"-maximum entropy) Psalm 102:25-27Isaiah 51:6Hebrews 1:10-11
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that all systems degenerate from order to disorder, was regarded by Albert Einstein to be the premier Law in science. Again the Bible is the only religious book to accurately describe this Law
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Number of stars Genesis 22:17, Jeremiah 33:22
The first star catalogue was compiled by the Egyptian astronomer Ptolemy in the 2nd century ad. Called the Almagest, it listed the names and locations of 1,028 stars. However, because of telescopes such as the Hubble, we now know that astronomers estimate that there are at least 70 sextillion (7×1022) stars in the observable universe. [Wikipedia]
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Every star is different 1 Corinthians 15:41
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Pleiades and Orion as gravitationally bound star groups Job 38:31
God asked Job
“Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion?” (Job 38:31).
In the last century astrophysicists have discovered that the stars of Pleiades move in unison with each other, and are thus gravitationally bound. They have also discovered that the stars of Orion are free agents that are not gravitationally bound! Interestingly, the three stars that comprise Orion's belt appear to be closer together than the outer stars in the constellation, but are actually farther apart! (they appear closer together because of the 2-D plane we see them in)
:O
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Light is in motion Job 38:19-20
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Stars emit radio waves Job 38:7
Those Singing Stars...
Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..." In fact…
The galaxy is full of objects that emit radio waves, stars of various kinds
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The earth is controlled by the heavens Job 38:33
Gravitational hold of the Sun, The moon`s gravitational effects on our tidal system, etc.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Earth is a sphere Isaiah 40:22 Job 26:10
Please note that verses like Isaiah 11:12 that refer to "the four corners of the earth", are a colloquialism that is still used today to portray the four compass extremities of the earth. In fact the Strongs Greek/Hebrew dictionary defines the word "corner" (gonia) as angle, or quadrant.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
At any time, there is day and night on the Earth Luke 17:34-35
Obviously, some people will be working while others will be sleeping when the Lord returns.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Earth is suspended in space Job 26:7
"He stretches out the north over empty space; he hangs the earth on nothing" [Job 26:7]
In ancient times it was variously believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant, or even that a mythical Atlas supported the pillars that held heaven and earth apart, and/or carried the earth around on his shoulders (Where he stood while doing so presents an interesting conundrum). However, in what is probably the oldest book of the Bible, Job, living in an ancient culture that knew nothing about space or planets, asserted that God hung the earth on nothing (1500 B.C.) or, in other words, the earth free floats in space. Of course the word `gravity` would only be invented and understood much later on in time which would describe how this would make figurative sense.
That Hole In The North
Another interesting tidbit that illuminates the Divine origin of Scripture is the recent discovery of a huge hole in space… in the direction of the northern hemisphere
The universe has a huge hole in it that dwarfs anything else of its kind. The discovery caught astronomers by surprise. The hole is nearly a billion light-years across. It is not a black hole, which is a small sphere of densely packed matter. Rather, this one is mostly devoid of stars, gas and other normal matter, and it's also strangely empty of the mysterious "dark matter" that permeates the cosmos. Other space voids have been found before, but nothing on this scale. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/pdf_extract/214/4524/1016
This "gap" is in the Northern Hemisphere, lying in the general direction of the constellation Bootes. This "hole in space" is a 300 million light year gap in the distribution of galaxies, has taken cosmologists by surprise, not because it exists, but because it is so big.
Indeed, He stretches out the north over the empty place.
:O
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Earth Sciences
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Earth began as a waterworld. Formation of continents by tectonic activity described Genesis 1:2-9, Psalm 104:6-9, Proverbs 3:19, Proverbs 8:27-29, Job 38:4-8, 2 Peter 3:5
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Water cycle described Ecclesiastes 1:7; Isaiah 55:10, Job 36:27-28
The Mississippi River, which is just one of thousands of rivers all over this planet, dumps over six million gallons of water per second into the Gulf of Mexico. The answer to where all that water goes lies in the hydrologic cycle, or circulation of the earth's water… something that was not fully accepted until the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, although the earliest literature indicating an understanding of this cycle was apparently around the third or fourth century BC.. Aristotle demonstrated only a vague understanding of this process… though he recognized that rain came from clouds, he incorrectly postulated that air turned into water and vice versa.
Either way the Bible accurately portrays of this cycle 2500 years before it was widely accepted. Note the following passages:
For He draws up the drops of water, they distill rain from the mist, which the clouds pour down, they drip upon man abundantly. [Job 36:27,28]
The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the face of the earth, The LORD is His name. [Amos 9:6]
It has only recently been learned that most clouds are formed by ocean evaporation, but again the Bible had it right centuries ago:
"All the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full; to the place from which the rivers come, there they return again [Ecclesiastes 1:7]".
The complex nature of how water is supported in clouds despite being heavier than air is clearly implied when God declared to Job
"Do you know how the clouds are balanced, those wondrous works of Him who is perfect in knowledge (Job 37:16).
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mountains Under The Seas: [Jonah 2:6]
When Jonah, who lived some 2,800 years ago, was in the depths of the ocean, he spoke of going down to the "bottoms of the mountains”.
"I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet have you brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God." [Jonah 2:6]
Only in recent years has man discovered that there are mountains on the ocean floor. The greatest ocean depth has been sounded in the Challenger Deep of the Mariana's Trench, a distance of 35,798 feet below sea level. Mount Everest is 29,035 feet high.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Vents exist on the bottom of the sea Job 38:16
The first underwater hot spring to be discovered was probably in 1977, when scientists discovered hot springs at a depth of 2.5 km, on the Galapagos Rift (spreading ridge) off the coast of Ecuador. Since then other hot springs have been found at a number of sites along the mid-oceanic ridges, many on the East Pacific Rise. Giant tube worms, huge clams, and mussels all thrive around the hot springs.
Yet once again the Bible was slightly ahead of man’s discovery..
Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Or hast thou walked in the recesses of the deep? [Job 38:16]
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Ocean currents in the sea [b]Psalm 8:8[/b]
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Air has weight Job 28:25
The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago. The relative weights of air and water are needed for the efficient functioning of the world’s hydrologic cycle, which in turn sustains life on the earth.
When He imparted weight to the wind and meted out the waters by measure [Job 28:25]
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Winds blow in circular paths Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind goes toward the south, and turns around to the north; The wind whirls about continually, And comes again on its circuit. [Ecclesiastes 1:6]
The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere, and includes some principles of fluid dynamics
In the book of Job (written some 3,500 years ago), God asks Job if he had entered into
“the treasures of the snow” [38:22].
I can just hear the critics of yesteryear … Huh! Did He mean that blanket of white stuff that covers everything? What treasures could there possibly be in that? However with the advent of the microscope, man discovered that the ice molecules of each snowflake form in a wide variety of intricate shapes. In other words, each and every single snowflake has a unique and often beautifully symmetrical pattern. Quite a "treasure."
During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine)."
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Man From Dust Genesis 2:7
Researchers at NASA's Ames Research Center confirmed that every element in man can be found in the soil, prompting one of the scientists to say
"...the biblical scenario for the creation of life turns out to be not far off the mark"
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Precise dimensions of Noah's Ark
The dimensions of Noah's Ark as described in the Bible are ideal for stability. In fact, South Korean architects who examined the dimensions found that the boat was virtually impossible to capsize! Their modeling and analysis found that the ark could survive waves higher than 30 meters! (note that a typical tsunami is only 10 meters high)
Hong, S.W. et al., Safety investigation of Noah’s Ark in a seaway, TJ 8(1):26–36, 1994. All the co-authors are on the staff of the Korea Research Institute of Ships and Ocean Engineering.
Etc etc etc
Science(Our `testable` and established knowledge) catching up to the bible. Fact.
The Torah and New testament are divinely inspired. Fact. (For many more reasons that require belief than anything else)
People have the opportunity to believe or not and investigate the facts for themselves. Fact.
Bible urges people to test all things, and verify all truths. Fact.
@Eviyin
The name of God is not Yahweh. Atleast I do not believe that. The error of the tettragrammaton.
Very simply stated in the bible: God tells Moses that his name is "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh". Or he is also to be called `The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob".
What the first name means, or its translation can be seen(in verse 14): http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0203.htm#13
I found a few sources that stated God was an ascended man. Is this not correct?
Incorrect.
@ProzaicMuze
We do NOT believe in 3 separate Gods and believe we are ALL eternal. We believe in a form of Nontrinitarianism wherein God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate beings. God is the one God, Jesus is the literal son of God sent to Earth for our salvation through the atonement and The Holy Ghost is the constant companion of those who would accept him.
Yes. God is one. Not a trinity(false teaching). One thing I dont get is why people say "Holy Ghost" instead of "Holy Spirit"
And that the soul cant function or experience with clarity whence cognitive functions are impaired, and eventual death. Just like a computer cant function without electricity. The body is only the seat for the soul/consciousness.
But I ask you this from the bottom of my
heart to please pray one more time to God, and ask him to reveal himself
to you, when no one is around. Soften your heart if for only one moment
to the possibility he may be on the other end of the line. Pour your
heart unto him, and he will give you a
resolution like nothing you've ever known... but only if you mean it, if
only for a moment in time.
The mystical feeling you describe is not reserved just for religion. Either way, the reason God doesn't reveal himself to anybody directly is the same reason Gandalf doesn't come by and put up a fireworks display.
I'm not saying that you would become a Christian, I'm stating that much
of your argument is built upon Catholic history and does not represent
all parts of Christianity.
A valid argument. And yet, we can only handle one thing at a time. I guess Catholics are the topic of the month and at some point we'll move on to Mormons and their magic underwear, but we can't accommodate everyone who comes in here and says "but wait, those beliefs don't apply to my sect of Christianity". After all, there's over 30000 different denominations.
So scientists are allowed to consistently disagree (something that will
never change so long as science is pursued by humans), but religion
(based heavily upon human interpretation of human translations) isn't
allowed to disagree? This is a weak argument and a stretch at best.
Scientists disagree about one thing and one thing only: reality. Religious people disagree about totally different religious books, and even identical religious books. The disagreement in science stems from our humility in the knowledge that our assessment of reality is not always objective and it is this that drives the scientific process, bringing us medicine, cars, and computers. The disagreement in religion stems from pride and the idea that one person knows the mind of god better than another. The inconsistency here is that religion is based on authority and is supposed to be a static dogma.
If God truly cares, he'd have affected history to have made Christianity the only religion, instead of just one of the main religions. You do after all believe that God intervenes in our affairs? Is it not logical to assume that even if he exists that he simply does not care what religion you are?
As for the idea that knowing what God wants is hubris, I think you're
being dramatically grandiose. You might have a point if religion was
based entirely upon the ideas of men without any literature to support
it, but that's not the case. We believe God told us what he wants and
that the personal accounts of those from Biblical times illustrate these
things. We don't assume "God wants us to be good because I think that's
what he'd want," we believe this because the scriptures contain what we
believe is the word of God.
The danger is when people twist the meaning of scripture to suit their purposes. But indeed, most of the blame lies with the people who actually sat down and formulated these texts. You might be thinking, why would somebody make all this stuff up? Well, look around you, people play hoaxes all the time. Unfortunately for Mormonism, Joseph Smith's fraudulency has been rather well documented. Hell, the guy was already arrested once for banking fraud.
Now you're trying too hard. This isn't an excuse and I'd suggest you go
learn what an excuse actually looks like. Not only did I agree with you
(it does sound like a fairy tale), I went further and said I couldn't
prove it happened. An excuse would have been "I don't need proof, I have
faith."
While I would have found that answer acceptable, I knew you wouldn't.
Somehow me agreeing with you is still an excuse and thus unacceptable to
you. Brushing aside the rest of what I said as "mental gymnastics"
and/or "handwaving" tells me that you're not interested in hearing what
I have to say.
An excuse is "you can't prove it didn't happen". My only point was that you don't have to provide justification for what many believers consider to be miraculous events anyway. It's redundant. But what else did I miss? Are there any other sections of the bible you agree that sound like man-made fairy-tales? Is the bible still the infallible word of god?
I didn't use the Bible to justify the Bible, I used real
world examples to justify the Bible and admitted those points that
couldn't justify in a manner you would accept.
And I appreciate it. However, I've had my fill of looking at self-serving creationist websites.
"There is always some air in the whale's stomach, and, as long as the animal it has swallowed is still alive, digestive activity will not begin."
This is just wrong. No human can have enough air to last more than a few minutes in a whale's stomach. The whale feeds mostly underwater, and the lungs are not connected to the throat like they are in humans. So just where the heck does the air come from?
Religion will never reach a conclusion based on evidence. It only seeks to find or fabricate evidence for its already pre-determined conclusion.
Talking birds - this is not remotely close to talking donkeys, who don't even have the same capability as birds. This is what I mean by handwaving.
Bombardier beetle - pretty cool. thanks for the link.
Giants - alright, so we've established that these are some tall dudes.
800 yr lifespans - So the bible authors at least attempted to have some sense of verisimilitude by gradually decreasing the lifespans. It fits a pattern which is great, but this does little to address the problem at hand: people living to protoss lifespans. Again, handwaving.
I'm not going to entertain anymore of your points until you address mine. It would be a waste of my time to exert effort providing my perspective when you're going to ignore the bulk of my points by jumping to points that I agree with you on. . . which you then attempt to spin as if I'm dodging your criticism.
You were never supposed to address any of those points to begin with. I only listed them to show believers what their faith looks like to an outside observer. Like how we look back on the ancient greeks and think how silly they were with their gods throwing lightning bolts down on top of people from mountains, or their Hercules myth (which christians also have).
But inevitably, somebody always replies to that list. I am aware that somebody can always come up with a theistic justification for whatever I come up with. I'm sure you or EternalWraith look at the list and are facepalming just because you know there's an excuse, just like if a Hindu, Sikh, or Jew was here, he'd be able to defend his beliefs with equal effectiveness. I am also aware that there might even be a clever real-world connection/excuse for some of these things on the list. That is not the point. The point is that the bible actually has these things in it, and they are childish, and future observers will laugh at us the same way we laugh at the ancient greeks.
We dont know the woman in question. We dont know the life she lived. We dont know why she got the brain tumor. We dont know to what extent she was a Christian. We dont know what opportunities may have been presented to her for a possible [divine] healing(Forgiveness is important, Repentance ,Faith, etc). We just dont know the variables.
There is much to discuss about asking God for healing. Even more so about the laws that govern healing and restoration. Divine or through medicines. Far beyond the scope of this thread, and even of my limited understanding of the matter.
"In Einstein's day, you'd be right. However since the inception of quantum mechanics (something your PC relies upon to work), and hence the discovery that particle position can never be 100% accurately predicted, pre-determinism is impossible."
I never said predictable, I said predetermined. That is, there is no randomness.
"As for souls, and consciousness, I believe they don't exist.
Why?
Simple. Take a regular person, and observe them before and after a mental illness or brain injury. Their cognitive functions deteriorate proportional to the damage."
The brain is like the rest of the body, it is used. When you break your harm, you receive less functionality from it. When you break your spine, you also receive less functionality from it. When one's frontal lobe is damaged, one receives less functionality from it. However, that does not mean you're less concious than you would be otherwise.
"Now, at death, your brain is completely damaged so it stands to reason that your consciousness is also completely damaged."
As I said previously, brain functionality is not related to level of conciousness (other than brain-dead peeps, that is different). And that is not even reasonable nor provable. So much for being the reasonable one here (you).
"Regarding your last statement, you're invoking God of the gaps which has a long history of being a very poor position to take. Invoking the supernatural does nothing to advance human knowledge."
What? I said interest in it. If I look into scientifically proving God, does that mean I'm suddenly supporting his existence? Talk about jumping to conclusions... And way to avoid the question.
"advance human knowledge."
You act like that is all that matters in this world. I'm not against advancing technology because I believe in free will, unlike you apparently, but there are plenty of studies that suggest technology is not all that beneficial. Or what, you believe it is beneficial to be able to drop nukes rather than fight wars with swords? I don't know why some people are against medical advances, though I am against some aspects (plastic surgery, etc.).
Eiviyn's example was bad, Heisenberg uncertainty doesnt mean the world is not deterministic. Its just nobody can determine its fate especially as we are part of it.... (Turing had some quite nice examples on that)
However for example, nobody yet predicted anything about particle's spins, so that seems totally random. If every spin is predetermined, than somebody had a really hard job with this universe.
Anyway a deterministic world is pretty frightening. (I love freedom too much)
The brain is like the rest of the body, it is used. When you break your harm, you receive less functionality from it. When you break your spine, you also receive less functionality from it. When one's frontal lobe is damaged, one receives less functionality from it. However, that does not mean you're less concious than you would be otherwise.
Special pleading. You have no valid base to make that assertion. As far as science understands, consciousness is a product of your brain.
What? I said interest in it. If I look into scientifically proving God, does that mean I'm suddenly supporting his existence? Talk about jumping to conclusions... And way to avoid the question.
Let me remind you of your comment.
"And in the least, would you admit there is enough uncertainty about it to at least warrant a little interest in supernatural explanations?"
If that's not invoking a god, then I don't know what is. If you're invoking some other supernatural entity, then it's still the same error you're making.
People are too lazy to read, and I take the time and effort to present the data here to silence any stupidity and ignorance.
Thirdly, I hope you then grant this same point to the Quran, because people have done similar things with that.
Not really. Quran is the corrupt version of the bible by the way. Again, you wouldn`t understand because you dont know that you dont know.
I read your post in full. I always do. I'll reply to each claim when I have time, but for now I wanted to point out the logical fallacy you're committing by showing the bible is special by pointing out science in the bible, but not accepting that the same can be done with Harry Potter and the Quran.
Muslims state the same thing about the bible. Don't mistake my disagreement as misunderstanding.
So tell me. Where in the harry potter books does it `specifically` describe how the universe was created, how it will end, heck how it has anything to do with our reality?. Im only showing that the bible claims to be what it is, The word of God, and not a work of Fiction(Like harry potter) or bronze age priests. The bible makes statements, and nothing is taken out of context.
You dont see how weak your arguments are becoming. Almost delusional?. I honestly thought you were a bit more intelligent than this.
Quran is the bible, same thing, only greatly corrupted and reverse in its teaching.
So can we then do this with any other religious book?. Can we?. Nope. Prove me wrong?
Or perhaps you will present your data from Harry potter books for comparisons(even though that argument is flawed for many reasons). That should be funny, and I will ask Mozared to borrow me some of his popcorn while I entertain your thoughts in amusement should you present it that way.
I have a question, who do you atheists think of souls?
Hypothetically, everything is predetermined by the positions of matter and energy, that is, nothing is "random," with the exception of some "scientific" theories. Which implies that everything we do is already determined, and so there is no such thing as free will and that there's no difference from us and objects (non-organisms). You could say there are different levels of conciousness, of which simpler organisms have less, but that doesn't explain what a conciousness is in the first place.
And in the least, would you admit there is enough uncertainty about it to at least warrant a little interest in supernatural explanations?
Charysmatic, as a side thought, your question is probably part of the reason why the theist vs atheist debate will not be resolved anytime soon. The fact that science does not know everything just yet to be able to put an end to the debate once and for all.
Eiviyn, I guess what I'm trying to say is simple and it is in a form of a question with certain parameters.
It's a challenge to how people translate the text. And there's a lot of ways to look at said texts. As an example, your response is an example, in that, though I have no intention of saying the Bible is science, rather that "Is it possible that what's been talked about before was something we are in right now (science), or is part of that which was alluded to in those text, if we accept that they are somewhat divinely inspired?"
In any case, it's true what you say. No science has ever come out of the Bible in a literal, "I read the bible and I discovered the laws of physics", but in another view they call it a some form of revelation. But this goes into arguing with established theology, which would assume certain parameters to be there. That was the context of my post up there.
This one is very interesting:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Defense on the interpretation: (continuing on the blasphemy)
Isn't it true that Priesthoods were the "scientists" of their time? If you look at it in a way that Shamans, albularios, priests of [deity here], etc. functioned ages and ages ago. Elders were for political functions, etc. etc. Overtime this changes.
Well, at least in tribes you can see this clearly. Shamans would have access to medicine, and would hold secret of the medicine. They have ceremonies to drive "disease causing spirits", which to the microscope is simply just fungus. In a time without proper medicine, these shamans would in some form be very much like science and all its areas today.
Though they were not 100% accurate, they were the only science in those times in some form, weren't they? Now, what if that's what that text was really "seeing"?
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
This is wrong. Your physics is about 50 years out of date.
In Einstein's day, you'd be right. However since the inception of quantum mechanics (something your PC relies upon to work), and hence the discovery that particle position can never be 100% accurately predicted, pre-determinism is impossible.
As for souls, and consciousness, I believe they don't exist.
Why?
Simple. Take a regular person, and observe them before and after a mental illness or brain injury. Their cognitive functions deteriorate proportional to the damage.
Now, at death, your brain is completely damaged so it stands to reason that your consciousness is also completely damaged.
Regarding your last statement, you're invoking God of the gaps which has a long history of being a very poor position to take. Invoking the supernatural does nothing to advance human knowledge.
Let me put it another way then.
Nothing in the bible could not have been written by a bronze age priest.
Christianity
John 14:6
This makes Christianity exclusive to Christians, though you could argue that Muslims could slip by. Muslims reject Jesus as being the son of God (instead, a prophet) making them mutually exclusive.
Jews are out because they believe Jesus is not the messiah, claiming he does not meet the requirements for it.
Non-abrahamic religions are out straight off the bat.
Islam
If they are right, all others are wrong.
Quran 3:19 "The only religion in the sight of God is Islam."
Hindu
Pretty loose religion. No real requirements. Pray to whoever, even "invent" your own God. However other religions preclude "false gods" which makes them incompatible with Hinduism.
Mormon
Firstly, Holy Ghost is a requirement. Throwing out every religion bar Christianity. Mormons assert (as you did) that Christianity is corrupt after the death of the New Testament apostles. They also assert that they alone have the uncorrupt version. This, in my opinion, makes Mormons mutually exclusive with Christianity.
Secondly, Mormons believe in 3 separate Gods, who are not eternal. By contrast, Christianity teaches that there are 3 parts, but one God and that He is eternal.
Now, that's a Christian commandment broken there by Mormons. That makes them pretty mutually exclusive to me.
I base this on the rules of each religion to get into their version of heaven.
For example?
So what we know about god is what is revealed. Where does what is revealed come from? What is revealed comes from other people... so it is thus logical to conclude that all we know about god comes from other people; or, at the very least, is hear-say? Or has god revealed himself to you?
-That's fine. Just be willing to admit it.
Nearly every Christian denomination believes he was a prophet and Muslims agree. Muslim's don't believe Jesus is the literal son God because that would be an abomination. Instead, we are metaphorical children of God. I see this as a technicality because they still believe his teachings, just as Christians do, but do not consider him the literal son of God or a deity. Agreeing that he was a prophet, but disagreeing on his heritage isn't enough of a divide to completely separate them in my eyes. A mutually exclusive belief would be if Muslims claimed he never existed or is the embodiment of evil.
Both Christianity and Judaism discuss the 12 Tribes of Israel. Part of this is that 10 tribes were lost (scattered as slaves of the Assyrians) while 2 remained. These tribes are the tribe of Judah (Judaism) and the tribe of Benjamin which merged with Judah. Many Christian denominations claim to be descendents of various tribes. This is important because of an event described as the Gathering of Israel wherein the 12 tribes would reunite. So while I agree that the modern beliefs of Christianity and Judaism are at odds, I believe parallels can be drawn between core principles that prevent them from being mutually exclusive.
I refer to my previous statement regarding Buddhism and reincarnation. To me, exclusive means that absolutely no connections or parallels can be drawn between the two. This isn't the case as I can see portions of many non-Abrahamic religions that resonate with my beliefs and Christianity in general. To me, these represent groups that got a few things right, but missed the bigger picture. I respect the emphasis on harmony many of these religions promote and feel it would be a mistake to exclude them entirely from Christian beliefs. I sometimes feel they are better at being Christ-like than most Christians in the world, they just don't use Christ as their role model.
I don't know the Quran as well as I'd like, but I don't agree that this warrants exclusivity. To me, this says "our interpretation is the correct interpretation" which doesn't exactly mean that everything about every other religion is wrong. Imagine 2 doors representing success and failure. If 2 people, having led similar lives, encountered them and picked different doors, picking the wrong door doesn't invalidate their life up to that point. This is similar to the concept of a deathbed conversion wherein a person lives a sinful life and then "finds God" as he's dying just to get into heaven.
I will agree that Islam's reaction to people they believe "failed the exam" is usually quite extreme, though. I will also agree that depending on the perspective, choosing the wrong door really would invalidate your life's choices, but I'm talking from my own perspective.
With tolerance being a significant part of the loosely defined religion, I refer to my points about non-Abrahamic religions. Christianity does more to exclude these religions than they do, which I'd like to mention I don't agree with.
Don't take this as an insult, but you don't know much about Mormonism based on what you've said here.
1) The Holy Ghost is not a requirement for membership, nor is it a requirement for entering into heaven. Everyone can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost if they seek it, but only by being baptized can you receive the "Gift of the Holy Ghost" or his constant companionship (so long as you live righteously).
Being baptized is only a requirement for those who wish to receive the Priesthood (required for things like Missionary work) or enter into a Mormon Temple (temple work or be sealed). It is also a requirement to enter into the Celestial Kingdom. Before you say, "but that's heaven," it's not. As I said a while ago in this thread, we are much more specific about the afterlife than most Christian denominations. We believe the afterlife has many parts, 4 of which pertain to heaven and hell: Perdition (a form of what many call hell) and the 3 Kingdoms of Glory (Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial in order of increasing magnitude)
The Telestial Kingdom is reserved for individuals who did not have the opportunity to hear our teachings. It is here that many will make their choice before being judged according to their actions and desire of their hearts. We believe that everyone, regardless of their situation will have the opportunity to make their choice whether it be here on Earth or in the afterlife. This is why Mormon's engage in baptisms/sealings for the dead wherein we stand as proxies here on Earth for those that have passed.
The Terrestrial Kingdom is a middle ground wherein Jesus can be found, but God will not. While not an exact rule, it is often understood as a place where those who rejected our teachings on Earth, but later accepted them in the afterlife will reside. They had the opportunity but refused it.
The Celestial Kingdom is closest to what most consider heaven wherein Jesus AND God can be found. Being baptized is but one of the many requirements associated with Mormon principles to enter into this kingdom. You can call it the "righteous club" if it makes it easier to understand.
2) We do NOT believe in 3 separate Gods and believe we are ALL eternal. We believe in a form of Nontrinitarianism wherein God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate beings. God is the one God, Jesus is the literal son of God sent to Earth for our salvation through the atonement and The Holy Ghost is the constant companion of those who would accept him.
Just because religions disagree doesn't make them exclusive in my eyes. This is primarily due to my beliefs about the afterlife. Mormonism disagrees with the idea that you get one chance to get it right here on Earth and if you screw up you're damned for eternity. We believe we get chance after chance to get it right both in this life and the next. Because of this, I am less willing to isolate the beliefs of others from my own given that sometimes (by my beliefs) they only got it half wrong.
Regarding Christianity vs Islam, I think you should look into haram vs halal. Specifically Qur'an, 5:3, 5:90 and 35:12. Here you can see a list of banned consumables which are "the handiwork of Satan", many of which are part of the daily life of most Christians. Is your cheese halal? I doubt it.
Islam believes Jesus was never crucified. Islam rejects the cross. Sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158.
Given Muslims believe the Quran is the literal word of God, and it literally states "but they killed him not, nor crucified him", wearing a crucified Jesus around your neck is outright rejection of their idea of the word of God.
Regarding Buddhism, they actually have a fairly solid system by which you must adhere to, in order to become a deva and ascend to Nirvana. While you could technically be a Christian and a Buddhist, there's no overlap between the two religions. A Buddhist wouldn't "know" Christ and hence wouldn't get into heaven. Likewise a Christian wouldn't live by the teachings of Buddha and hence if Buddhism is right, a Christian won't ascend to Nirvana.
Regarding Mormonism, you seem like a fair source.
I'm open to being corrected here, and I'm genuinely asking because, as you rightly pointed out, my knowledge of Mormonism isn't what I'd want it to be.
As far as I understand, God is God, while Jesus and the Holy Ghost are "lesser Gods"? Is this not correct? If it is, does this not count as breaking "3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me."? If it's not correct, what are they?
I found a few sources that stated God was an ascended man. Is this not correct?
You have? But why did you need to find god? What kind of search was it? Practical, scientific, philosophical, theological? What would you do with it in case you find itsomehow? I mean, we all are searching for something. For reason, inspiration, love or something else. But why would someone search for god? To try to communicate with it? To aquire a psychological state like self-confidence? To write a book? To get rid of the obsession and onthological thinking? To prove how religions wrong? To say "omg" sensibly?
@Eiviyn: Go
As for souls, and consciousness, I believe they don't exist.
You dont believe consciousness exists?. How different are you then from a rock?
Now, at death, your brain is completely damaged so it stands to reason that your consciousness is also completely damaged.
And if your brain was not damaged, but you died regardless?
I believe consciousness = soul(Same thing)
And that the soul cant function or experience with clarity whence cognitive functions are impaired, and eventual death. Just like a computer cant function without electricity. The body is only the seat for the soul/consciousness.
There is no `twisting scripture until it fits`. Thats the stupidest thing Ive heard. Either it is , or is not. Precept upon precept. Some scriptures are difficult to understand at first glance or without seeing it in the context of use and comparing it with other scriptures in the bible. There is however no `twisting` going on. There is only one meaning, whether we understand it at present or not and within context and comparing it for validation with other parts of the bible.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Scientific Principle Biblical Reference
Cosmology/Astronomy
Time had a beginning :2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2, 1 Corinthians 2:72
The universe had a beginning :Genesis 1:1, 2:4, Isaiah 42:5, etc
The word "beginning" refers specifically to the beginning of time. However, for many years scientists were convinced that the universe was infinite (without end), and that time had always existed. The COsmic Background Explorer (COBE), also referred to as Explorer 66, was a NASA space mission designed to test the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe and apparently provided evidence that supported the idea that the universe had a beginning.
I wonder how many billions of dollars Explorer 66 cost. Yet someone only had to open the first page of a $10.00 Bible to know the universe had a beginning.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The universe was created from the invisible :Hebrews 11:3
All matter is composed of atoms. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of things that we cannot see- tiny invisible particles called atoms, made up of electrons and protons
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The universe is expanding :Job 9:8, Psalm 104:2, Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 42:5, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:12, Isaiah 48:13, Isaiah 51:13, Jeremiah 10:12, Jeremiah 51:15, Zechariah 12:1
Scientists only recently now understand that the universe is expanding, or stretching out. At least seven times the Scriptures clearly tell us that God stretches out the heavens like a curtain
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Creation of matter and energy has ended in the universe (refutes steady-state theory) :Genesis 2:1
The 1st Law of Thermodynamics states that matter can be neither created nor destroyed, and that the amount of matter/energy in the universe remains constant. If the First Law is correct, which every scientific measurement ever made has confirmed, then the universe could not have created itself, it must have been created in the past, no further creating must be going on, and no loss of creation is occurring. The Bible is the only religious book that correctly portrays the First Law by its description in Genesis of a Creator who is no longer creating.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The universe is winding down and will "wear out" (second law of thermodynamics ensures that the universe will run down due to "heat death"-maximum entropy) Psalm 102:25-27 Isaiah 51:6 Hebrews 1:10-11
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that all systems degenerate from order to disorder, was regarded by Albert Einstein to be the premier Law in science. Again the Bible is the only religious book to accurately describe this Law
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Number of stars Genesis 22:17, Jeremiah 33:22
The first star catalogue was compiled by the Egyptian astronomer Ptolemy in the 2nd century ad. Called the Almagest, it listed the names and locations of 1,028 stars. However, because of telescopes such as the Hubble, we now know that astronomers estimate that there are at least 70 sextillion (7×1022) stars in the observable universe. [Wikipedia]
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Every star is different 1 Corinthians 15:41
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Pleiades and Orion as gravitationally bound star groups Job 38:31
God asked Job
“Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion?” (Job 38:31).
In the last century astrophysicists have discovered that the stars of Pleiades move in unison with each other, and are thus gravitationally bound. They have also discovered that the stars of Orion are free agents that are not gravitationally bound! Interestingly, the three stars that comprise Orion's belt appear to be closer together than the outer stars in the constellation, but are actually farther apart! (they appear closer together because of the 2-D plane we see them in)
:O
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Light is in motion Job 38:19-20
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Stars emit radio waves Job 38:7
Those Singing Stars...
Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..." In fact…
The galaxy is full of objects that emit radio waves, stars of various kinds
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The earth is controlled by the heavens Job 38:33
Gravitational hold of the Sun, The moon`s gravitational effects on our tidal system, etc.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Earth is a sphere Isaiah 40:22 Job 26:10
Please note that verses like Isaiah 11:12 that refer to "the four corners of the earth", are a colloquialism that is still used today to portray the four compass extremities of the earth. In fact the Strongs Greek/Hebrew dictionary defines the word "corner" (gonia) as angle, or quadrant.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
At any time, there is day and night on the Earth Luke 17:34-35
Obviously, some people will be working while others will be sleeping when the Lord returns.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Earth is suspended in space Job 26:7
"He stretches out the north over empty space; he hangs the earth on nothing" [Job 26:7]
In ancient times it was variously believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant, or even that a mythical Atlas supported the pillars that held heaven and earth apart, and/or carried the earth around on his shoulders (Where he stood while doing so presents an interesting conundrum). However, in what is probably the oldest book of the Bible, Job, living in an ancient culture that knew nothing about space or planets, asserted that God hung the earth on nothing (1500 B.C.) or, in other words, the earth free floats in space. Of course the word `gravity` would only be invented and understood much later on in time which would describe how this would make figurative sense.
That Hole In The North
Another interesting tidbit that illuminates the Divine origin of Scripture is the recent discovery of a huge hole in space… in the direction of the northern hemisphere
The universe has a huge hole in it that dwarfs anything else of its kind. The discovery caught astronomers by surprise. The hole is nearly a billion light-years across. It is not a black hole, which is a small sphere of densely packed matter. Rather, this one is mostly devoid of stars, gas and other normal matter, and it's also strangely empty of the mysterious "dark matter" that permeates the cosmos. Other space voids have been found before, but nothing on this scale. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/pdf_extract/214/4524/1016
This "gap" is in the Northern Hemisphere, lying in the general direction of the constellation Bootes. This "hole in space" is a 300 million light year gap in the distribution of galaxies, has taken cosmologists by surprise, not because it exists, but because it is so big.
Indeed, He stretches out the north over the empty place.
:O
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Earth Sciences
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Earth began as a waterworld. Formation of continents by tectonic activity described Genesis 1:2-9, Psalm 104:6-9, Proverbs 3:19, Proverbs 8:27-29, Job 38:4-8, 2 Peter 3:5
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Water cycle described Ecclesiastes 1:7; Isaiah 55:10, Job 36:27-28
The Mississippi River, which is just one of thousands of rivers all over this planet, dumps over six million gallons of water per second into the Gulf of Mexico. The answer to where all that water goes lies in the hydrologic cycle, or circulation of the earth's water… something that was not fully accepted until the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, although the earliest literature indicating an understanding of this cycle was apparently around the third or fourth century BC.. Aristotle demonstrated only a vague understanding of this process… though he recognized that rain came from clouds, he incorrectly postulated that air turned into water and vice versa.
Either way the Bible accurately portrays of this cycle 2500 years before it was widely accepted. Note the following passages:
For He draws up the drops of water, they distill rain from the mist, which the clouds pour down, they drip upon man abundantly. [Job 36:27,28]
The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the face of the earth, The LORD is His name. [Amos 9:6]
It has only recently been learned that most clouds are formed by ocean evaporation, but again the Bible had it right centuries ago:
"All the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full; to the place from which the rivers come, there they return again [Ecclesiastes 1:7]".
The complex nature of how water is supported in clouds despite being heavier than air is clearly implied when God declared to Job
"Do you know how the clouds are balanced, those wondrous works of Him who is perfect in knowledge (Job 37:16).
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mountains Under The Seas: [Jonah 2:6]
When Jonah, who lived some 2,800 years ago, was in the depths of the ocean, he spoke of going down to the "bottoms of the mountains”.
"I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet have you brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God." [Jonah 2:6]
Only in recent years has man discovered that there are mountains on the ocean floor. The greatest ocean depth has been sounded in the Challenger Deep of the Mariana's Trench, a distance of 35,798 feet below sea level. Mount Everest is 29,035 feet high.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Vents exist on the bottom of the sea Job 38:16
The first underwater hot spring to be discovered was probably in 1977, when scientists discovered hot springs at a depth of 2.5 km, on the Galapagos Rift (spreading ridge) off the coast of Ecuador. Since then other hot springs have been found at a number of sites along the mid-oceanic ridges, many on the East Pacific Rise. Giant tube worms, huge clams, and mussels all thrive around the hot springs.
Yet once again the Bible was slightly ahead of man’s discovery..
Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Or hast thou walked in the recesses of the deep? [Job 38:16]
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Ocean currents in the sea [b]Psalm 8:8[/b]
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Air has weight Job 28:25
The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago. The relative weights of air and water are needed for the efficient functioning of the world’s hydrologic cycle, which in turn sustains life on the earth.
When He imparted weight to the wind and meted out the waters by measure [Job 28:25]
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Winds blow in circular paths Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind goes toward the south, and turns around to the north; The wind whirls about continually, And comes again on its circuit. [Ecclesiastes 1:6]
The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere, and includes some principles of fluid dynamics
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Unique Snowflakes: Job 38:22
In the book of Job (written some 3,500 years ago), God asks Job if he had entered into
“the treasures of the snow” [38:22].
I can just hear the critics of yesteryear … Huh! Did He mean that blanket of white stuff that covers everything? What treasures could there possibly be in that? However with the advent of the microscope, man discovered that the ice molecules of each snowflake form in a wide variety of intricate shapes. In other words, each and every single snowflake has a unique and often beautifully symmetrical pattern. Quite a "treasure."
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Sanitation/Health
During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine)."
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Man From Dust Genesis 2:7
Researchers at NASA's Ames Research Center confirmed that every element in man can be found in the soil, prompting one of the scientists to say
"...the biblical scenario for the creation of life turns out to be not far off the mark"
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Precise dimensions of Noah's Ark
The dimensions of Noah's Ark as described in the Bible are ideal for stability. In fact, South Korean architects who examined the dimensions found that the boat was virtually impossible to capsize! Their modeling and analysis found that the ark could survive waves higher than 30 meters! (note that a typical tsunami is only 10 meters high)
Hong, S.W. et al., Safety investigation of Noah’s Ark in a seaway, TJ 8(1):26–36, 1994. All the co-authors are on the staff of the Korea Research Institute of Ships and Ocean Engineering.
Etc etc etc
Science(Our `testable` and established knowledge) catching up to the bible. Fact.
The Torah and New testament are divinely inspired. Fact. (For many more reasons that require belief than anything else)
People have the opportunity to believe or not and investigate the facts for themselves. Fact.
Bible urges people to test all things, and verify all truths. Fact.
@Eviyin
The name of God is not Yahweh. Atleast I do not believe that. The error of the tettragrammaton.
Very simply stated in the bible: God tells Moses that his name is "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh". Or he is also to be called `The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob".
What the first name means, or its translation can be seen(in verse 14):
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0203.htm#13
I found a few sources that stated God was an ascended man. Is this not correct?
Incorrect.
@ProzaicMuze
We do NOT believe in 3 separate Gods and believe we are ALL eternal. We believe in a form of Nontrinitarianism wherein God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate beings. God is the one God, Jesus is the literal son of God sent to Earth for our salvation through the atonement and The Holy Ghost is the constant companion of those who would accept him.
Yes. God is one. Not a trinity(false teaching). One thing I dont get is why people say "Holy Ghost" instead of "Holy Spirit"
Dont destroy English. (but yeah both are nonsense...)
You know there are mechanical computers?
We are all self replicating star dust.
The mystical feeling you describe is not reserved just for religion. Either way, the reason God doesn't reveal himself to anybody directly is the same reason Gandalf doesn't come by and put up a fireworks display.
A valid argument. And yet, we can only handle one thing at a time. I guess Catholics are the topic of the month and at some point we'll move on to Mormons and their magic underwear, but we can't accommodate everyone who comes in here and says "but wait, those beliefs don't apply to my sect of Christianity". After all, there's over 30000 different denominations.
Scientists disagree about one thing and one thing only: reality. Religious people disagree about totally different religious books, and even identical religious books. The disagreement in science stems from our humility in the knowledge that our assessment of reality is not always objective and it is this that drives the scientific process, bringing us medicine, cars, and computers. The disagreement in religion stems from pride and the idea that one person knows the mind of god better than another. The inconsistency here is that religion is based on authority and is supposed to be a static dogma.
If God truly cares, he'd have affected history to have made Christianity the only religion, instead of just one of the main religions. You do after all believe that God intervenes in our affairs? Is it not logical to assume that even if he exists that he simply does not care what religion you are?
One of them being that we each get to rule a planet if we lived a good life correct? http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Mormons-get-their-own-worlds
The danger is when people twist the meaning of scripture to suit their purposes. But indeed, most of the blame lies with the people who actually sat down and formulated these texts. You might be thinking, why would somebody make all this stuff up? Well, look around you, people play hoaxes all the time. Unfortunately for Mormonism, Joseph Smith's fraudulency has been rather well documented. Hell, the guy was already arrested once for banking fraud.
An excuse is "you can't prove it didn't happen". My only point was that you don't have to provide justification for what many believers consider to be miraculous events anyway. It's redundant. But what else did I miss? Are there any other sections of the bible you agree that sound like man-made fairy-tales? Is the bible still the infallible word of god?
And I appreciate it. However, I've had my fill of looking at self-serving creationist websites.
http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t004.html
"There is always some air in the whale's stomach, and, as long as the animal it has swallowed is still alive, digestive activity will not begin."
This is just wrong. No human can have enough air to last more than a few minutes in a whale's stomach. The whale feeds mostly underwater, and the lungs are not connected to the throat like they are in humans. So just where the heck does the air come from?
Religion will never reach a conclusion based on evidence. It only seeks to find or fabricate evidence for its already pre-determined conclusion.
Talking birds - this is not remotely close to talking donkeys, who don't even have the same capability as birds. This is what I mean by handwaving.
Bombardier beetle - pretty cool. thanks for the link.
Giants - alright, so we've established that these are some tall dudes.
800 yr lifespans - So the bible authors at least attempted to have some sense of verisimilitude by gradually decreasing the lifespans. It fits a pattern which is great, but this does little to address the problem at hand: people living to protoss lifespans. Again, handwaving.
You were never supposed to address any of those points to begin with. I only listed them to show believers what their faith looks like to an outside observer. Like how we look back on the ancient greeks and think how silly they were with their gods throwing lightning bolts down on top of people from mountains, or their Hercules myth (which christians also have).
But inevitably, somebody always replies to that list. I am aware that somebody can always come up with a theistic justification for whatever I come up with. I'm sure you or EternalWraith look at the list and are facepalming just because you know there's an excuse, just like if a Hindu, Sikh, or Jew was here, he'd be able to defend his beliefs with equal effectiveness. I am also aware that there might even be a clever real-world connection/excuse for some of these things on the list. That is not the point. The point is that the bible actually has these things in it, and they are childish, and future observers will laugh at us the same way we laugh at the ancient greeks.
@Gradius12: Go
We dont know the woman in question. We dont know the life she lived. We dont know why she got the brain tumor. We dont know to what extent she was a Christian. We dont know what opportunities may have been presented to her for a possible [divine] healing(Forgiveness is important, Repentance ,Faith, etc). We just dont know the variables.
There is much to discuss about asking God for healing. Even more so about the laws that govern healing and restoration. Divine or through medicines. Far beyond the scope of this thread, and even of my limited understanding of the matter.
Fear God, Be righteous, Give unto the poor, Believe, Have faith, Live only to Glorify God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2038:1-6&version=NIV
@Eiviyn: Go
"In Einstein's day, you'd be right. However since the inception of quantum mechanics (something your PC relies upon to work), and hence the discovery that particle position can never be 100% accurately predicted, pre-determinism is impossible."
I never said predictable, I said predetermined. That is, there is no randomness.
"As for souls, and consciousness, I believe they don't exist.
Why?
Simple. Take a regular person, and observe them before and after a mental illness or brain injury. Their cognitive functions deteriorate proportional to the damage."
The brain is like the rest of the body, it is used. When you break your harm, you receive less functionality from it. When you break your spine, you also receive less functionality from it. When one's frontal lobe is damaged, one receives less functionality from it. However, that does not mean you're less concious than you would be otherwise.
"Now, at death, your brain is completely damaged so it stands to reason that your consciousness is also completely damaged."
As I said previously, brain functionality is not related to level of conciousness (other than brain-dead peeps, that is different). And that is not even reasonable nor provable. So much for being the reasonable one here (you).
"Regarding your last statement, you're invoking God of the gaps which has a long history of being a very poor position to take. Invoking the supernatural does nothing to advance human knowledge."
What? I said interest in it. If I look into scientifically proving God, does that mean I'm suddenly supporting his existence? Talk about jumping to conclusions... And way to avoid the question.
"advance human knowledge."
You act like that is all that matters in this world. I'm not against advancing technology because I believe in free will, unlike you apparently, but there are plenty of studies that suggest technology is not all that beneficial. Or what, you believe it is beneficial to be able to drop nukes rather than fight wars with swords? I don't know why some people are against medical advances, though I am against some aspects (plastic surgery, etc.).
@EternalWraith: Go
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scientific_facts_in_the_bible.html
You could've just linked this site instead of copy/pasting all it's contents.
Secondly you could do this with Harry Potter and find just as much science.
Thirdly, I hope you then grant this same point to the Quran, because people have done similar things with that.
The name of God is not Yahweh. Atleast I do not believe that. The error of the tettragrammaton.
It's YHWH. Jehovah if you read literal translations, Lord if you read amended recent translations.
You dont believe consciousness exists?. How different are you then from a rock?
I believe in consciousness insofar as the term extends, however science is fairly certain that it is a product of the brain, and not the "soul".
And if your brain was not damaged, but you died regardless?
Impossible. Your brain dies in seconds without a constant flow of oxygenated blood which doesn't happen while dead.
@Charysmatic: Go So for example: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Profound+mental+retardation they dont have souls than?
Eiviyn's example was bad, Heisenberg uncertainty doesnt mean the world is not deterministic. Its just nobody can determine its fate especially as we are part of it.... (Turing had some quite nice examples on that) However for example, nobody yet predicted anything about particle's spins, so that seems totally random. If every spin is predetermined, than somebody had a really hard job with this universe. Anyway a deterministic world is pretty frightening. (I love freedom too much)
@Eiviyn: Go
People are too lazy to read, and I take the time and effort to present the data here to silence any stupidity and ignorance.
Thirdly, I hope you then grant this same point to the Quran, because people have done similar things with that.
Not really. Quran is the corrupt version of the bible by the way. Again, you wouldn`t understand because you dont know that you dont know.
"No randomness" is predictable... that's what predictable means...
Special pleading. You have no valid base to make that assertion. As far as science understands, consciousness is a product of your brain.
Let me remind you of your comment.
"And in the least, would you admit there is enough uncertainty about it to at least warrant a little interest in supernatural explanations?"
If that's not invoking a god, then I don't know what is. If you're invoking some other supernatural entity, then it's still the same error you're making.
I read your post in full. I always do. I'll reply to each claim when I have time, but for now I wanted to point out the logical fallacy you're committing by showing the bible is special by pointing out science in the bible, but not accepting that the same can be done with Harry Potter and the Quran.
Muslims state the same thing about the bible. Don't mistake my disagreement as misunderstanding.
@Eiviyn: Go
So tell me. Where in the harry potter books does it `specifically` describe how the universe was created, how it will end, heck how it has anything to do with our reality?. Im only showing that the bible claims to be what it is, The word of God, and not a work of Fiction(Like harry potter) or bronze age priests. The bible makes statements, and nothing is taken out of context.
You dont see how weak your arguments are becoming. Almost delusional?. I honestly thought you were a bit more intelligent than this.
Quran is the bible, same thing, only greatly corrupted and reverse in its teaching.
So can we then do this with any other religious book?. Can we?. Nope. Prove me wrong?
Or perhaps you will present your data from Harry potter books for comparisons(even though that argument is flawed for many reasons). That should be funny, and I will ask Mozared to borrow me some of his popcorn while I entertain your thoughts in amusement should you present it that way.