"Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
And what stops god from jumping to this step? What are according to you the true acting forces on our world? If god were the only acting force all this universe seems pretty unnecessary, unless he chose to limit himself one way or another?
Appendicitis is brought on by poor hygienic practices
as a result of the appendix attempting to remove toxins from the body.
No. Appendicitis is brought on by obstruction, usually of feces. The appendix does not remove toxins. A bacterial infection causes appendicitis because the lymph nodes enlarge and obstruct the appendix, leading to inflammation. The digestive system has plenty of effective ways of removing toxins, and the appendix only gets in the way.
Quote:
It's also incredibly ignorant to say "outweighs any minor immune
benefits it gives" when we don't have a definitive understanding of what
it does.
That's just idle theorycrafting. We already know that removing it has pretty much no consequences. And if it's so important in fetal development, then an intelligent designer would have made it shrink/deform upon birth (like the falciform ligament) so that obstruction and inflammation would not be an issue.
The point is that 320,000 people are hospitalized each year. The only time people notice their appendix is when it gives them a problem. An intelligent designer would have put the immune processes of the appendix into another organ, and got rid of the appendix all-together.
I would take this thread Seriously, But its well known that every atheist on the internet is just a troll.. Now someone get the Troll Spray, so we can ward them off.
No. Appendicitis is brought on by obstruction, usually of feces. The appendix does not remove toxins. A bacterial infection causes appendicitis because the lymph nodes enlarge and obstruct the appendix, leading to inflammation. The digestive system has plenty of effective ways of removing toxins, and the appendix only gets in the way.
An obstruction caused by improper hygienic practices such as overeating, poor diet and a plethora of other situations predominately perpetuated by the human responsible for said appendix. And yes, the appendix can and does remove toxins from the body. Nearly every part of your body can, in some way, absorb and mitigate toxins. This is precisely what inflammation is: the body sends blood to the location to allow the proper handling of harmful substances. Thus when the appendix is inflamed it is trying to deal with harmful substances. The problem is that we react incorrectly by taking anti-inflammatory medication that hide the problem without addressing the root cause: diet.
My family/relatives have a long history of diabetes, celiac sprue, Crohn's and a whole slew of other related problems. As a result, we are intimately aware of the affect diet has on the body, specifically how it affects the colon, intestines and the surrounding area. I have Crohn's and, as such, have learned that it is possible to reverse the majority of these diseases through proper diet.
I'll continue this thought after addressing your next point:
That's just idle theorycrafting. We already know that removing it has pretty much no consequences. And if it's so important in fetal development, then an intelligent designer would have made it shrink/deform upon birth (like the falciform ligament) so that obstruction and inflammation would not be an issue.
The point is that 320,000 people are hospitalized each year. The only time people notice their appendix is when it gives them a problem. An intelligent designer would have put the immune processes of the appendix into another organ, and got rid of the appendix all-together.
Actually, we don't know that removing it has no consequences. . . that's what these studies are discovering. Seriously, are you even reading what you're using as evidence against me? This study supports my statement more than it undermines it. They even go on to say, "These results probably reflect some naivete on our part regarding the true function of the appendix." It is NOT theorycrafting on my part if the people who conduct these studies state the same things.
We're only beginning to grasp at what the appendix does for us, so to suggest what an "intelligent designer" would really do is silly. For someone who espouses the humility of science, you are quick to use it to support truly ignorant claims. Given that I have Crohn's, I have learned a considerable amount about this precise subject matter. I've even read this exact case study before as it relates to another article posted by the SAME SITE on the increased risk of Crohn's disease following an appendectomy. Oh hey, whadya know. . .
Going back to the previous study, it makes perfect sense why having an appendix would increase the likelihood of C. difficile for the precise reason they speculate:
"While our study cannot show causality, a possible interpretation of our findings would be that the appendix is indeed a microbial reservoir, and that C. difficile is among the harbored organisms. Under the selective pressure of antimicrobials, C. difficile is able to emerge and colonize the lower gut."
If you're diet sucks, your colon isn't going to be able to fight off C. difficile when it presents itself. In fact, nearly every kind of bacteria in the body has a beneficial purpose for being there, but through improper diet, becomes harmful as a result of overpopulation; E. coli being a perfect example. If the study does not cover what, exactly, these people are eating it won't provide an accurate understanding of why they tested positive for C. difficile. It's like studying what promotes lung cancer without asking whether or not you smoke.
While it's cool that you can use google and read the first few sentences of a study, you are horribly misinformed in this situation. I know what I'm talking about because my life literally depends on it. I'd appreciate it if you verified your claims before you make a fool of yourself in the future. This is the second time you've posted a link in an effort to bolster your claims that results in the opposite upon closer inspection. I'm wondering if I shouldn't go through all of your posts and provide the same treatment.
I'd just like to point out that a couple of these points are inaccurate. I watched deGrasse's presentation you linked earlier and found several of the points he made at the end to be incredibly ignorant of modern information with regards to the human body.
Careful of "modern information". Most are just non-peer reviewed articles written with a religious agenda, like the source you use for the following. If it doesn't appear on http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov, you can safely bet that it's a junk article.
For example, the appendix isn't as "useless" as we thought it was. Recent studies are suggesting it plays an important part in building immune systems for growing infants and preserving bacteria for immune systems in adults during times of illness. An example being that bacteria can "hideout" in the appendix prior to diarrhea purging the colon of harmful substances. The bacteria is then released and quickly repopulates the colon with beneficial bacteria. Additionally, the removal of the appendix during surgeries is no longer standard practice as it can be used to reconstruct a damaged bladder.
This is a half-truth. It contributes to this effect because the organ has no use, and hence gets infected easily. Because it gets infected so readily, it exposes the body to extra pathogens which it then has to fight off. This will boost your immune system, but no more than catching a cold would.
A rotting lump of flesh would have a similar effect. Actually, that's essentially what your appendix is.
We, as a species, would be better off without the appendix. Appendicitis is fatal without surgery. 5-8% of the human population experience appendicitis.
There simply is no excuse. It is a fatal flaw in our "design".
I would take this thread Seriously, But its well known that every atheist on the internet is just a troll.. Now someone get the Troll Spray, so we can ward them off.
I'm sure that as a religious nutjob, you'd like to think that. However we're quite serious; we don't believe your storybook since it has no evidence nor proof for it's claims.
Careful of "modern information". Most are just non-peer reviewed articles written with a religious agenda, like the source you use for the following. If it doesn't appear on http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov, you can safely bet that it's a junk article.
This is a half-truth. It contributes to this effect because the organ has no use, and hence gets infected easily. Because it gets infected so readily, it exposes the body to extra pathogens which it then has to fight off. This will boost your immune system, but no more than catching a cold would.
A rotting lump of flesh would have a similar effect. Actually, that's essentially what your appendix is.
We, as a species, would be better off without the appendix. Appendicitis is fatal without surgery. 5-8% of the human population experience appendicitis.
There simply is no excuse. It is a fatal flaw in our "design".
This study supports my statement more than it undermines it.
On what planet? The study is very explicit:
"Conversely, patients who tested positive for C. difficile were more likely to have an intact appendix than those who tested negative. These results suggest that rather than being protective, an intact appendix appears to promote C. difficile acquisition, carriage, and disease."
I don't know why you're giving me the authors' opinions as proof of anything, especially when this study contradicted their original hypothesis that the appendix provided protective functions against the bacteria.
An obstruction caused by improper hygienic practices such as overeating,
poor diet and a plethora of other situations predominately perpetuated
by the human responsible for said appendix. And yes, the appendix can
and does remove toxins from the body. Nearly every part of your body
can, in some way, absorb and mitigate toxins.
Yes, a poor diet without fiber will lead to appendicitis because food gets lodged in there. A flaw that does not exist in the rest of the GI tract, and the point which you refuse to acknowledge. You're also naive if you think everyone with appendicitis is guilty of poor diet.
Yes, every part of the body can absorb harmful substances. But saying that the appendix removes toxins is disingenuous, considering how anybody who knows anything about the appendix knows that it's a festering sack of latent disease.
The liver removes toxins. The appendix just sits there like a ticking timebomb.
An obstruction caused by improper hygienic practices such as overeating, poor diet and a plethora of other situations predominately perpetuated by the human responsible for said appendix. And yes, the appendix can and does remove toxins from the body. Nearly every part of your body can, in some way, absorb and mitigate toxins. This is precisely what inflammation is: the body sends blood to the location to allow the proper handling of harmful substances. Thus when the appendix is inflamed it is trying to deal with harmful substances. The problem is that we react incorrectly by taking anti-inflammatory medication that hide the problem without addressing the root cause: diet.
Stop backpedaling. You originally said: "Appendicitis is brought on by poor hygienic practices as a result of the appendix attempting to remove toxins from the body."
That is totally wrong. Especially for someone who is supposed to be a self-proclaimed authority on the topic. Only a small percentage of cases of appendicitis aren't caused by any actual obstruction. In these cases, it has nothing to do with diet or the appendix filtering "toxins", it has to do with an infection that spread throughout the GI tract until it got to the weakest part: the appendix.
Back to your computer analogy, it's like knowingly putting a faulty sound card into a PC that requires constant supervision because it throws errors, and then blaming the end-user for it, when you could just remove the part in the first place and still be fine with just on-board sound.
This study you linked was a clinical/statistical analysis. They determined that the perceived risk for an increase in Crohn's is likely due to diagnostic bias:
"Such cases of Crohn's disease will probably come to the clinician's attention after the appendectomy, a bias that is likely to be most pronounced within the first few years after an appendectomy."
But if you were too lazy to read the entire article, you could have just...you know, looked at the conclusion at the top of the page:
Conclusion
"The transient increased risk of Crohn's disease after an appendectomy is probably explained by diagnostic bias."
Oh hey, whadya know...
Quote:
We're only beginning to grasp at what the appendix does for us, so to suggest what an "intelligent designer" would really do is silly. For someone who espouses the humility of science, you are quick to use it to support truly ignorant claims.
Newsflash: I never denied that the appendix might have yet-undiscovered important functions. You are not acknowledging the underlying point that yes, in fact, we have been removing appendices without major adverse affects for a long time, and that yes, people can die from sepsis from this one organ because it gets clogged with shit so easily. If you're going to get all sanctimonious it helps to actually read what I say and respond to that instead of some strawman.
Quote:
While it's cool that you can use google and read the first few sentences of a study, you are horribly misinformed in this situation. I know what I'm talking about because my life literally depends on it. I'd appreciate it if you verified your claims before you make a fool of yourself in the future. This is the second time you've posted a link in an effort to bolster your claims that results in the opposite upon closer inspection. I'm wondering if I shouldn't go through all of your posts and provide the same treatment.
Right back at ya. You're going to fail to read my arguments, fail to read my articles, fail to read your own articles, link me creationist sites which talk about how much air is inside of a whale's stomach even though the stomach is not connected to the whale's lungs....and then you're going to complain about my links. Got it.
Should I be surprised that most of your knowledge is restricted to blaming everything on "toxins" - a magical substance that is the cause of all our ills?
I am an athiest*
Yes, I exist.
No, I'm not just saying that to be a troll or because I am mad at god.
Although skim reading through some of this thread has made me mad. But mostly just sad.
*Athiest in the sense that I am not a thiest which I think is the most logic meaning of the word unlike what common usage of the word is which is more akin to antitheism. These are two totally seperate things.
No I dont fear them, I just dont like them. Thats my own opinion, and if you have a problem with that, well then arent you quite the hypocrit.
Nah. You've probably never even met one. You've just inherited the hate that your parents and preachers have taught you. Christiantiy, religion of hate and intolerance. Jesus would be sick with you.
oh no because no one has ever met a detrimental homosexual? Actually they are everywhere, they are at least 1: 5 people. And its getting worse.
Things i have noticed about homosexuals.
the Women are not clean
and the men are quick to hit women.
I joined this forum because all the members here seem to be intelligent people who demonstrate an understanding of a powerful tool. And then I step into this thread and it's like looking into a whole other world: a cesspool of unbridled ignorance & stupidity.
Actually those thoughts and opinions have nothing to do with my religious affiliation. Dont confuse the two, I dont need god to tell me when something so obvious is wrong. I can make my own decisions thank you.
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@GnaReffotsirk: Go
A good place to start getting a comprehensive guide to our world and why things are as they are is tromsite.com [13h].
And what stops god from jumping to this step? What are according to you the true acting forces on our world? If god were the only acting force all this universe seems pretty unnecessary, unless he chose to limit himself one way or another?
No. Appendicitis is brought on by obstruction, usually of feces. The appendix does not remove toxins. A bacterial infection causes appendicitis because the lymph nodes enlarge and obstruct the appendix, leading to inflammation. The digestive system has plenty of effective ways of removing toxins, and the appendix only gets in the way.
That's just idle theorycrafting. We already know that removing it has pretty much no consequences. And if it's so important in fetal development, then an intelligent designer would have made it shrink/deform upon birth (like the falciform ligament) so that obstruction and inflammation would not be an issue.
Besides, there are also studies which show a higher incidence of disease in people with an in tact appendix.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3279496/
The point is that 320,000 people are hospitalized each year. The only time people notice their appendix is when it gives them a problem. An intelligent designer would have put the immune processes of the appendix into another organ, and got rid of the appendix all-together.
I would take this thread Seriously, But its well known that every atheist on the internet is just a troll.. Now someone get the Troll Spray, so we can ward them off.
There we go.
Dammit I knew it.
An obstruction caused by improper hygienic practices such as overeating, poor diet and a plethora of other situations predominately perpetuated by the human responsible for said appendix. And yes, the appendix can and does remove toxins from the body. Nearly every part of your body can, in some way, absorb and mitigate toxins. This is precisely what inflammation is: the body sends blood to the location to allow the proper handling of harmful substances. Thus when the appendix is inflamed it is trying to deal with harmful substances. The problem is that we react incorrectly by taking anti-inflammatory medication that hide the problem without addressing the root cause: diet.
My family/relatives have a long history of diabetes, celiac sprue, Crohn's and a whole slew of other related problems. As a result, we are intimately aware of the affect diet has on the body, specifically how it affects the colon, intestines and the surrounding area. I have Crohn's and, as such, have learned that it is possible to reverse the majority of these diseases through proper diet.
I'll continue this thought after addressing your next point:
Actually, we don't know that removing it has no consequences. . . that's what these studies are discovering. Seriously, are you even reading what you're using as evidence against me? This study supports my statement more than it undermines it. They even go on to say, "These results probably reflect some naivete on our part regarding the true function of the appendix." It is NOT theorycrafting on my part if the people who conduct these studies state the same things.
We're only beginning to grasp at what the appendix does for us, so to suggest what an "intelligent designer" would really do is silly. For someone who espouses the humility of science, you are quick to use it to support truly ignorant claims. Given that I have Crohn's, I have learned a considerable amount about this precise subject matter. I've even read this exact case study before as it relates to another article posted by the SAME SITE on the increased risk of Crohn's disease following an appendectomy. Oh hey, whadya know. . .
Going back to the previous study, it makes perfect sense why having an appendix would increase the likelihood of C. difficile for the precise reason they speculate:
"While our study cannot show causality, a possible interpretation of our findings would be that the appendix is indeed a microbial reservoir, and that C. difficile is among the harbored organisms. Under the selective pressure of antimicrobials, C. difficile is able to emerge and colonize the lower gut."
If you're diet sucks, your colon isn't going to be able to fight off C. difficile when it presents itself. In fact, nearly every kind of bacteria in the body has a beneficial purpose for being there, but through improper diet, becomes harmful as a result of overpopulation; E. coli being a perfect example. If the study does not cover what, exactly, these people are eating it won't provide an accurate understanding of why they tested positive for C. difficile. It's like studying what promotes lung cancer without asking whether or not you smoke.
While it's cool that you can use google and read the first few sentences of a study, you are horribly misinformed in this situation. I know what I'm talking about because my life literally depends on it. I'd appreciate it if you verified your claims before you make a fool of yourself in the future. This is the second time you've posted a link in an effort to bolster your claims that results in the opposite upon closer inspection. I'm wondering if I shouldn't go through all of your posts and provide the same treatment.
Careful of "modern information". Most are just non-peer reviewed articles written with a religious agenda, like the source you use for the following. If it doesn't appear on http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov, you can safely bet that it's a junk article.
This is a half-truth. It contributes to this effect because the organ has no use, and hence gets infected easily. Because it gets infected so readily, it exposes the body to extra pathogens which it then has to fight off. This will boost your immune system, but no more than catching a cold would.
A rotting lump of flesh would have a similar effect. Actually, that's essentially what your appendix is.
We, as a species, would be better off without the appendix. Appendicitis is fatal without surgery. 5-8% of the human population experience appendicitis.
There simply is no excuse. It is a fatal flaw in our "design".
Anyway, read down this list;
Argument from poor design
We are suboptimal as a biological machine. Simple improvements could be made. That is simply a brute fact.
I'm sure that as a religious nutjob, you'd like to think that. However we're quite serious; we don't believe your storybook since it has no evidence nor proof for it's claims.
I'd refer you to the post I just made. I disagree with this portion of your post.
I'll take a look at the link and respond to the second half of your post when I find the time :)
I don't understand why you'd argue this point.
This organ can be the sole cause of your death.
This organ can, and does, kill people.
It's either a divine joke or a result of our imperfect evolution.
On what planet? The study is very explicit:
"Conversely, patients who tested positive for C. difficile were more likely to have an intact appendix than those who tested negative. These results suggest that rather than being protective, an intact appendix appears to promote C. difficile acquisition, carriage, and disease."
I don't know why you're giving me the authors' opinions as proof of anything, especially when this study contradicted their original hypothesis that the appendix provided protective functions against the bacteria.
Yes, a poor diet without fiber will lead to appendicitis because food gets lodged in there. A flaw that does not exist in the rest of the GI tract, and the point which you refuse to acknowledge. You're also naive if you think everyone with appendicitis is guilty of poor diet.
Yes, every part of the body can absorb harmful substances. But saying that the appendix removes toxins is disingenuous, considering how anybody who knows anything about the appendix knows that it's a festering sack of latent disease.
The liver removes toxins. The appendix just sits there like a ticking timebomb.
Stop backpedaling. You originally said: "Appendicitis is brought on by poor hygienic practices as a result of the appendix attempting to remove toxins from the body."
That is totally wrong. Especially for someone who is supposed to be a self-proclaimed authority on the topic. Only a small percentage of cases of appendicitis aren't caused by any actual obstruction. In these cases, it has nothing to do with diet or the appendix filtering "toxins", it has to do with an infection that spread throughout the GI tract until it got to the weakest part: the appendix.
Back to your computer analogy, it's like knowingly putting a faulty sound card into a PC that requires constant supervision because it throws errors, and then blaming the end-user for it, when you could just remove the part in the first place and still be fine with just on-board sound.
- mega facepalm
This study you linked was a clinical/statistical analysis. They determined that the perceived risk for an increase in Crohn's is likely due to diagnostic bias:
"Such cases of Crohn's disease will probably come to the clinician's attention after the appendectomy, a bias that is likely to be most pronounced within the first few years after an appendectomy."
But if you were too lazy to read the entire article, you could have just...you know, looked at the conclusion at the top of the page:
Conclusion
"The transient increased risk of Crohn's disease after an appendectomy is probably explained by diagnostic bias."
Oh hey, whadya know...
Newsflash: I never denied that the appendix might have yet-undiscovered important functions. You are not acknowledging the underlying point that yes, in fact, we have been removing appendices without major adverse affects for a long time, and that yes, people can die from sepsis from this one organ because it gets clogged with shit so easily. If you're going to get all sanctimonious it helps to actually read what I say and respond to that instead of some strawman.
Right back at ya. You're going to fail to read my arguments, fail to read my articles, fail to read your own articles, link me creationist sites which talk about how much air is inside of a whale's stomach even though the stomach is not connected to the whale's lungs....and then you're going to complain about my links. Got it.
Should I be surprised that most of your knowledge is restricted to blaming everything on "toxins" - a magical substance that is the cause of all our ills?
@Taintedwisp: Go
You're homophobic?
I just want to thank you guys for answering my previous query. Much appreciated.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
@Nebuli2: Go
No I dont fear them, I just dont like them. Thats my own opinion, and if you have a problem with that, well then arent you quite the hypocrit.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
I am an athiest*
Yes, I exist.
No, I'm not just saying that to be a troll or because I am mad at god.
Although skim reading through some of this thread has made me mad. But mostly just sad.
*Athiest in the sense that I am not a thiest which I think is the most logic meaning of the word unlike what common usage of the word is which is more akin to antitheism. These are two totally seperate things.
Nah. You've probably never even met one. You've just inherited the hate that your parents and preachers have taught you. Christiantiy, religion of hate and intolerance. Jesus would be sick with you.
@Eiviyn: Go
oh no because no one has ever met a detrimental homosexual? Actually they are everywhere, they are at least 1: 5 people. And its getting worse.
Things i have noticed about homosexuals.
the Women are not clean
and the men are quick to hit women.
I joined this forum because all the members here seem to be intelligent people who demonstrate an understanding of a powerful tool. And then I step into this thread and it's like looking into a whole other world: a cesspool of unbridled ignorance & stupidity.
I guess that's what religion is good for.
@Gradius12: Go
Actually those thoughts and opinions have nothing to do with my religious affiliation. Dont confuse the two, I dont need god to tell me when something so obvious is wrong. I can make my own decisions thank you.