The Devil deceived Eve (and Adam, indirectly) into eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil or whatever, thus freeing them from being God's mere puppets, giving them critical thinking, right?
He basically saved us from being God's slaves?
Besides, now that I think of it, God killed about 2.5 million people (+ - some thousands), whereas the Devil only killed 10 (in the Bible).
God denies access to his holy kingdom OoOoOo if you've been bad, whereas the Devil accepts anyone of God's unwanted children, isn't that kind of douchy by God? I mean, it says somewhere in the Bible that when you enter heaven;
God will wipe the tears of sin off you (removing the 'curse' of the fruit that Eve and Adam ate), so why does he not accepts everyone and 'wipe their tears' to free them?
I don't see the "God is about forgiveness and everyone should love him" argument as a good one.
thus freeing them from being God's mere puppets, giving them critical thinking, right? He basically saved us from being God's slaves?
They had choice and free will. God being the good parent warned them what would happen if they ate of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. The consequences were ALREADY there, but they did not pay heed. Life could have been perpetual bliss if they chose to obey and listen to God(trusting his judgements, aka he knows everything and has my back covered), but they did the opposite and received the consequence of that. You`re either obeying God or going your own way. God`s way by definition is truth , life, and bliss.
Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the LORD. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death."Proverbs 8:36
whereas the Devil accepts anyone of God's unwanted children, isn't that kind of douchy by God? I mean, it says somewhere in the Bible that when you enter heaven;
God never rejects you. You reject God. The cross is there with open arms, but the choice is to the individual.
The devil wants to cheat you away from eternal life and glory. He wants to kill and destroy you. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant, because he is very much real and active and his craftiness is not easily discerned to the indivdiual(Meaning you wont believe me anyway).He will be burning in hell for all eternity.
I don't see the "God is about forgiveness and everyone should love him" argument as a good one.
If God is justice and truth, then our sins deserve death. Thats fair. But he is merciful and forgiving at the same time. Cancelling our debt(sin) and its consequences, if we confess and repent. We have confidence and joy in his love and grace, but we keep ourselves in check(from sinning) because we fear God in reverence and awe. http://www.feargod.net/verses.php
If I was religious, I would be pro-choice, because God aborts more children per year than we could ever hope to. Also, I'd say women shouldn't be allowed to menstruate because it's a waste of an unborn life.
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb."
Psalm 139:13
Not only is god responsible for miscarriages, but every single genetic defect that anyone has ever had.
@Gradius12: GoNot only is god responsible for miscarriages, but every single genetic defect that anyone has ever had.
We dont know why things like that happen. The reasons behind it etc. Somehow I dont think it has anything to do with God having random fun in an evil manner. Why would God do that?. No need to jump to big conclusions knowing your pint sized brain cant understand it.
@The picture
Says who?. How do you know God did not Judge America for everything they have done?. Does the bible say he will judge only on Gay marriage and abortion?. No. Once again, your picture is completely wrong.
Tell people there's an invisible man in the sky who created the universe, and the vast majority of people will believe you
Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure - George Carlin
Then I have to ask you another question; If you break one of the 10 commandments, are you damned to burn in hell?
If it was by accident?, Continually sinning on purpose?. Be specific. I would not condemn you, and neither would God. As long as you make an effort to repent and stop sinning(aka stop being evil), an effort to not judge others(so you wont be judged harshly), and to be merciful(so you will receive mercy), You`re good to go. No one is perfect and all have sinned(except Christ), Realizing the error and stopping is good.
Well, let's say that you have a son/daughter (or maybe you already have I don't know) and (s)he one day comes home and says (s)he doesn't believe in God anymore, what would you do then? If (s)he's strongly disagreeing with you about that God exists (basically becomming an atheist).
Would you throw her/him out of your house and let your neighboor torture her and then just forget about her/him? Would you try to save your child by trying to discuss the matter?
In short, what actions would you take if your child became an atheist (or something similar that defies God)?
Not only is god responsible for miscarriages, but every single genetic defect that anyone has ever had.
We dont know why things like that happen. The reasons behind it etc. Somehow I dont think it has anything to do with God having random fun in an evil manner. Why would God do that?. No need to jump to big conclusions knowing your pint sized brain cant understand it.
Not jumping to conclusions. I just gave you a direct quote where God claims the credit. I'm saying the writers of the bible didn't think these things through, them being cavemen & all. Not to be pedantic, but we already know God enjoys having random fun in an evil manner, like when he ruined Job's life because of a bet he had with Satan. Or when he left his arch-enemy, the serpent, in the garden with Adam & Eve.
Well, let's say that you have a son/daughter (or maybe you already have I don't know) and (s)he one day comes home and says (s)he doesn't believe in God anymore, what would you do then? If (s)he's strongly disagreeing with you about that God exists (basically becomming an atheist).
Would you throw her/him out of your house and let your neighboor torture her and then just forget about her/him? Would you try to save your child by trying to discuss the matter?
In short, what actions would you take if your child became an atheist (or something similar that defies God)?
I would not throw him or her out. At that age, they are not doing anything wrong, they just dont know any better. You lead by example. Patience, teaching where you can(Not forcing, but you should be seen as a guide and refuge of love and advice), and exemplifying the qualities of Christ. How often did the apostles show doubt and disbelief?(many many many times..) Peter(being a coward at the time, and I use that word lightly) even disowned/denied Jesus at one point. Jesus did not kick any of them out.
Remember this, You cant save anyone. None of us can. Only God can do that. Only God can tug at the heart and only they can decide on the decision. Its thus more effective to pray for him/her and to simply trust in God. God is fair and just in everything.
But you would still try 'save' your child wouldn't you?
Whereas God would just send him/her straight to hell instead of helping a (in your eyes) delusioned person/child back to the 'warmth and loving God'? I mean, wouldn't he even try to save him/her from the grip of satan or whatever?
You know, it makes it sound like you have better moral standards, simply a more loving person than God himself.
@Gradius12: Go Not only is god responsible for miscarriages, but every single genetic defect that anyone has ever had.
We dont know why things like that happen. The reasons behind it etc. Somehow I dont think it has anything to do with God having random fun in an evil manner. Why would God do that?. No need to jump to big conclusions knowing your pint sized brain cant understand it.
Because we're imperfectly evolved primates who still retain half the useless features of apes (appendix and coccyx, for example) with inside-out, upside down eyes and an entertainment complex inside our sewage system perhaps?
Just a thought.
Coincidentally, how do you reconcile the glaring imperfections in human biology with a creator?
Because we're imperfectly evolved primates who still retain half the useless features of apes (appendix and coccyx, for example) with inside-out, upside down eyes and an entertainment complex inside our sewage system perhaps?
I'd just like to point out that a couple of these points are inaccurate. I watched deGrasse's presentation you linked earlier and found several of the points he made at the end to be incredibly ignorant of modern information with regards to the human body.
For example, the appendix isn't as "useless" as we thought it was. Recent studies are suggesting it plays an important part in building immune systems for growing infants and preserving bacteria for immune systems in adults during times of illness. An example being that bacteria can "hideout" in the appendix prior to diarrhea purging the colon of harmful substances. The bacteria is then released and quickly repopulates the colon with beneficial bacteria. Additionally, the removal of the appendix during surgeries is no longer standard practice as it can be used to reconstruct a damaged bladder.
Also, urination shortly after sex is beneficial both for males and females (especially when not using protection) as it reduces the chance of various forms of infection. Specifically, women are less likely to develop various UTIs and men "clean out the pipes" preventing ejaculate from building up to harmful levels. If these bodily functions were separated into different areas, we'd subject ourselves to a number of health risks including many STIs.
I wish I had more time to talk about more of the points being raised. I just wanted to point out how the common point about "God sucked at making the human body" is becoming less and less true given how our incredibly poor understanding of the human body is beginning to grow.
For example, the appendix isn't as "useless" as we thought it was. Recent studies are suggesting it plays an important part in building immune systems for growing infants and preserving bacteria for immune systems in adults during times of illness. An example being that bacteria can "hideout" in the appendix prior to diarrhea purging the colon of harmful substances. The bacteria is then released and quickly repopulates the colon with beneficial bacteria. Additionally, the removal of the appendix during surgeries is no longer standard practice as it can be used to reconstruct a damaged bladder.
Not really, because it still shows a failure on the part of the designer. The risk of appendicitis (5-7%) far outweighs any minor immune benefits it gives. It can be fatal, and it definitely was in pre-modern times when appendix removal wasn't an option; and even now an appendectomy costs a median of 30000 dollars. Same thing with c-section. Countless women died in pre-historic times simply because the birth canal was not big enough to deliver the baby.
Assuming you believe in evolution, that's over 100000 years where dieing was the rule rather than the exception for humans, just to put things in perspective.
Not really, because it still shows a failure on the part of the designer. The risk of appendicitis (5-7%) far outweighs any minor immune benefits it gives. It can be fatal, and it definitely was in pre-modern times when appendix removal wasn't an option; and even now an appendectomy costs a median of 30000 dollars.
This is incorrect. Appendicitis is brought on by poor hygienic practices as a result of the appendix attempting to remove toxins from the body. That is not a fault of the "designer" because he doesn't control what you put in your body. The majority of health problems today are caused by faulty nutritional education and medicine. It's like blaming a computer for overheating when the user refuses to clean/dust it or replace the thermal paste for the CPU.
It's also incredibly ignorant to say "outweighs any minor immune benefits it gives" when we don't have a definitive understanding of what it does. When you consider the rise of diseases in the world it's not hard to believe that maybe the appendix has a much greater role in the human body with regards to long term health that we still haven't discovered. This is especially true in the US where disease is running rampant. The worst part being that most of these diseases are self-inflicted and we don't even realize it.
1. It was perfect.
2. Something went wrong. What exactly this wrong is, no one is certain.
3. God wanted to restart everything, but conceded to "redeem", and so destroyed some, chose some, and had a plan, executed the contingency.
4. When the thing in #2 finally reaches its ultimate, God will make things new. In between here lies all the 1000 years of reign and wars, etc.
This produces a whole lot of issues as well, but the primary question lingers: "Why are things the way they are?"
Science and reason gives an answer. Theology gives another. Ancient Aliens give another. New age movement gives another.
I mean, why do I have to poop? Why go thirsty? Why is man made to be dependent on things the earth provide, and yet humans can't seem to make things abundant for each other? Why does humans have to go to war based on ideologies? What do humans really want? Why are we so afraid of each other that we can't trust each other and therefore must put laws against each other and ourselves?
Why are we so greedy? Why do we hate, and lose sleep over such anguish? Why do we spend billions over blasting people dead instead of spending billions to speed up research that could benefit us all?
Why do we have to struggle in a single planet that can't seem to grow rice or corn or whatever in a day? Why is everything is so easily destroyed and corrupted that we humans have to make things in order to ensure our abundance and prosperity and well being?
Why is our global economy as such today when it's obvious we can make 10000 years worth of products in debt?
Why is the human dominion so terrible, even to itself?
Who started this madness? How do we end it? Why should we? Why do we care so much?
And lastly, why is the chatroom smiley called "pedoSmile"?
Well, this has been chewing away at me.
The Devil deceived Eve (and Adam, indirectly) into eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil or whatever, thus freeing them from being God's mere puppets, giving them critical thinking, right? He basically saved us from being God's slaves?
Besides, now that I think of it, God killed about 2.5 million people (+ - some thousands), whereas the Devil only killed 10 (in the Bible). God denies access to his holy kingdom OoOoOo if you've been bad, whereas the Devil accepts anyone of God's unwanted children, isn't that kind of douchy by God? I mean, it says somewhere in the Bible that when you enter heaven;
God will wipe the tears of sin off you (removing the 'curse' of the fruit that Eve and Adam ate), so why does he not accepts everyone and 'wipe their tears' to free them?
I don't see the "God is about forgiveness and everyone should love him" argument as a good one.
@Irta643: Go
thus freeing them from being God's mere puppets, giving them critical thinking, right? He basically saved us from being God's slaves?
They had choice and free will. God being the good parent warned them what would happen if they ate of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. The consequences were ALREADY there, but they did not pay heed. Life could have been perpetual bliss if they chose to obey and listen to God(trusting his judgements, aka he knows everything and has my back covered), but they did the opposite and received the consequence of that. You`re either obeying God or going your own way. God`s way by definition is truth , life, and bliss.
Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the LORD. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death."Proverbs 8:36
whereas the Devil accepts anyone of God's unwanted children, isn't that kind of douchy by God? I mean, it says somewhere in the Bible that when you enter heaven;
God never rejects you. You reject God. The cross is there with open arms, but the choice is to the individual.
The devil wants to cheat you away from eternal life and glory. He wants to kill and destroy you. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant, because he is very much real and active and his craftiness is not easily discerned to the indivdiual(Meaning you wont believe me anyway).He will be burning in hell for all eternity.
I don't see the "God is about forgiveness and everyone should love him" argument as a good one.
If God is justice and truth, then our sins deserve death. Thats fair. But he is merciful and forgiving at the same time. Cancelling our debt(sin) and its consequences, if we confess and repent. We have confidence and joy in his love and grace, but we keep ourselves in check(from sinning) because we fear God in reverence and awe.
http://www.feargod.net/verses.php
Tell people there's an invisible man in the sky who created the universe, and the vast majority of people will believe you
Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure - George Carlin
Then I have to ask you another question; If you break one of the 10 commandments, are you damned to burn in hell?
If I was religious, I would be pro-choice, because God aborts more children per year than we could ever hope to. Also, I'd say women shouldn't be allowed to menstruate because it's a waste of an unborn life.
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb."
Psalm 139:13
Not only is god responsible for miscarriages, but every single genetic defect that anyone has ever had.
http://i.imgur.com/ZByXB.jpg
@Gradius12: Go Not only is god responsible for miscarriages, but every single genetic defect that anyone has ever had.
We dont know why things like that happen. The reasons behind it etc. Somehow I dont think it has anything to do with God having random fun in an evil manner. Why would God do that?. No need to jump to big conclusions knowing your pint sized brain cant understand it.
@The picture
Says who?. How do you know God did not Judge America for everything they have done?. Does the bible say he will judge only on Gay marriage and abortion?. No. Once again, your picture is completely wrong.
If it was by accident?, Continually sinning on purpose?. Be specific. I would not condemn you, and neither would God. As long as you make an effort to repent and stop sinning(aka stop being evil), an effort to not judge others(so you wont be judged harshly), and to be merciful(so you will receive mercy), You`re good to go. No one is perfect and all have sinned(except Christ), Realizing the error and stopping is good.
Well, let's say that you have a son/daughter (or maybe you already have I don't know) and (s)he one day comes home and says (s)he doesn't believe in God anymore, what would you do then? If (s)he's strongly disagreeing with you about that God exists (basically becomming an atheist).
Would you throw her/him out of your house and let your neighboor torture her and then just forget about her/him? Would you try to save your child by trying to discuss the matter?
In short, what actions would you take if your child became an atheist (or something similar that defies God)?
Not jumping to conclusions. I just gave you a direct quote where God claims the credit. I'm saying the writers of the bible didn't think these things through, them being cavemen & all. Not to be pedantic, but we already know God enjoys having random fun in an evil manner, like when he ruined Job's life because of a bet he had with Satan. Or when he left his arch-enemy, the serpent, in the garden with Adam & Eve.
I would not throw him or her out. At that age, they are not doing anything wrong, they just dont know any better. You lead by example. Patience, teaching where you can(Not forcing, but you should be seen as a guide and refuge of love and advice), and exemplifying the qualities of Christ. How often did the apostles show doubt and disbelief?(many many many times..) Peter(being a coward at the time, and I use that word lightly) even disowned/denied Jesus at one point. Jesus did not kick any of them out.
Remember this, You cant save anyone. None of us can. Only God can do that. Only God can tug at the heart and only they can decide on the decision. Its thus more effective to pray for him/her and to simply trust in God. God is fair and just in everything.
But you would still try 'save' your child wouldn't you?
Whereas God would just send him/her straight to hell instead of helping a (in your eyes) delusioned person/child back to the 'warmth and loving God'? I mean, wouldn't he even try to save him/her from the grip of satan or whatever?
You know, it makes it sound like you have better moral standards, simply a more loving person than God himself.
Because we're imperfectly evolved primates who still retain half the useless features of apes (appendix and coccyx, for example) with inside-out, upside down eyes and an entertainment complex inside our sewage system perhaps?
Just a thought.
Coincidentally, how do you reconcile the glaring imperfections in human biology with a creator?
So you believe in sorceresses?
I'll be honest I didn't think this would last this long... I mean I knew it would last a while but whew this is beyond expectation.
@JacktheArcher: Go
Make maps not religious arguments!
I'd just like to point out that a couple of these points are inaccurate. I watched deGrasse's presentation you linked earlier and found several of the points he made at the end to be incredibly ignorant of modern information with regards to the human body.
For example, the appendix isn't as "useless" as we thought it was. Recent studies are suggesting it plays an important part in building immune systems for growing infants and preserving bacteria for immune systems in adults during times of illness. An example being that bacteria can "hideout" in the appendix prior to diarrhea purging the colon of harmful substances. The bacteria is then released and quickly repopulates the colon with beneficial bacteria. Additionally, the removal of the appendix during surgeries is no longer standard practice as it can be used to reconstruct a damaged bladder.
Also, urination shortly after sex is beneficial both for males and females (especially when not using protection) as it reduces the chance of various forms of infection. Specifically, women are less likely to develop various UTIs and men "clean out the pipes" preventing ejaculate from building up to harmful levels. If these bodily functions were separated into different areas, we'd subject ourselves to a number of health risks including many STIs.
I wish I had more time to talk about more of the points being raised. I just wanted to point out how the common point about "God sucked at making the human body" is becoming less and less true given how our incredibly poor understanding of the human body is beginning to grow.
Not really, because it still shows a failure on the part of the designer. The risk of appendicitis (5-7%) far outweighs any minor immune benefits it gives. It can be fatal, and it definitely was in pre-modern times when appendix removal wasn't an option; and even now an appendectomy costs a median of 30000 dollars. Same thing with c-section. Countless women died in pre-historic times simply because the birth canal was not big enough to deliver the baby.
Assuming you believe in evolution, that's over 100000 years where dieing was the rule rather than the exception for humans, just to put things in perspective.
@ProzaicMuze: Go
You appendix also helps regulate Nutrients.
This is incorrect. Appendicitis is brought on by poor hygienic practices as a result of the appendix attempting to remove toxins from the body. That is not a fault of the "designer" because he doesn't control what you put in your body. The majority of health problems today are caused by faulty nutritional education and medicine. It's like blaming a computer for overheating when the user refuses to clean/dust it or replace the thermal paste for the CPU.
It's also incredibly ignorant to say "outweighs any minor immune benefits it gives" when we don't have a definitive understanding of what it does. When you consider the rise of diseases in the world it's not hard to believe that maybe the appendix has a much greater role in the human body with regards to long term health that we still haven't discovered. This is especially true in the US where disease is running rampant. The worst part being that most of these diseases are self-inflicted and we don't even realize it.
The theology I know about this goes like this:
1. It was perfect.
2. Something went wrong. What exactly this wrong is, no one is certain.
3. God wanted to restart everything, but conceded to "redeem", and so destroyed some, chose some, and had a plan, executed the contingency.
4. When the thing in #2 finally reaches its ultimate, God will make things new. In between here lies all the 1000 years of reign and wars, etc.
This produces a whole lot of issues as well, but the primary question lingers: "Why are things the way they are?"
Science and reason gives an answer. Theology gives another. Ancient Aliens give another. New age movement gives another.
I mean, why do I have to poop? Why go thirsty? Why is man made to be dependent on things the earth provide, and yet humans can't seem to make things abundant for each other? Why does humans have to go to war based on ideologies? What do humans really want? Why are we so afraid of each other that we can't trust each other and therefore must put laws against each other and ourselves?
Why are we so greedy? Why do we hate, and lose sleep over such anguish? Why do we spend billions over blasting people dead instead of spending billions to speed up research that could benefit us all?
Why do we have to struggle in a single planet that can't seem to grow rice or corn or whatever in a day? Why is everything is so easily destroyed and corrupted that we humans have to make things in order to ensure our abundance and prosperity and well being?
Why is our global economy as such today when it's obvious we can make 10000 years worth of products in debt?
Why is the human dominion so terrible, even to itself?
Who started this madness? How do we end it? Why should we? Why do we care so much?
And lastly, why is the chatroom smiley called "pedoSmile"?
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.