Without [the antithesis of original life, always], there has to be
original life, always.
What if the "original life" was a proto-cell? What if both abiogenesis and god exist? I still see no evidence for your claims or proof that there has to be "original life", whatever the heck that is.
I already explained it to you once and you ignored it. Quantum mechanics is a complete theory. It's not intuitive because we don't live on the quantum level, which only means that you're supposed to have some humility and recognize that your common sense view does not necessarily have to reflect reality. The universe can still work just fine with non-determinism. QM has proved that.
I already explained it to you once and you ignored it. Quantum mechanics is a complete theory. It's not intuitive because we don't live on the quantum level, which only means that you're supposed to have some humility and recognize that your common sense view does not necessarily have to reflect reality. The universe can still work just fine with non-determinism. QM has proved that.
Lol, What are you linking Wave-particle duality for again?. I dont see how this helps your argument whatsoever. And who created the laws of nature again?. They created themselves you say?. Ah fascinating!, Shalt` we drink tea together and discuss your logic in detail sometime?.
So who created god?
Do you erroneously think time is eternal?.;o. If so, why do you have a problem in thinking God is eternal?. Time is a dimension
Both Galileo and Newton and most people up until the 20th century thought that time was the same for everyone everywhere. This is the basis for timelines, where time is a parameter. Our modern conception of time is based on Einstein's theory of relativity, in which rates of time run differently depending on relative motion, and space and time are merged into spacetime, where we live on a world line rather than a timeline. Thus time is part of a coordinate, in this view. Physicists believe the entire Universe and therefore time itself[15][dubious – discuss] began about 13.7 billion years ago in the big bang. (See Time in Cosmology below) Whether it will ever come to an end is an open question. (See philosophy of physics.)
No time before the big bang. Otherwise it would have HAD to have been in a larger universe, and this cycle repeats to infinity. Which also destroys multiverse, so take your pick.
FDF linked me a really stupid .gif of two branes colliding. Under what contraints to these branes function and work on?, In what are they contained?, How were they created?. Are branes eternal?.;p
No matter how explicit the processes and how in detail we look at how it started everything. Ultimately the final answer goes down to God. No need for absurd wonky logic and deliberate excuses against the obvious.
Learn your sciences please, and more importantly the nature of "time".
The oppression of the atheists(in how they view time) will never again dominate this thread.
So to answer your question again.
In soviet Russia, Time creates God
In reality, God created the universe and time(measures of difference between A and B, affected by Space(spatial dimensions (length, width, height)).
God is eternal
Universe = product of creator = God
You`d have to be mentally unstable to think the universe was created on any sort of randomness or chance.
Atheist alternatives?? =Burden of Proof. Insert toothfairy, multiverse, parallel universe, Ceiling cat etc. All fails.
And who created the laws of nature again?. They created themselves you say?. Ah fascinating!, Shalt` we drink tea together and discuss your logic in detail sometime?.
And who created god again?. He created himself you say?. Ah fascinating!,
But seriously, prove that there was once nothing. You keep saying it over & over but always cower away from providing proof. I also love how that poster calls evolution "magic". It just goes to show that when you know absolutely nothing about a scientific theory it will look as magical to you as a Boeing airplane would look to a caveman. Watching creationists try to poke fun at science is like watching a bronze-leaguer try to give advice to a pro-gamer.
Physicists believe the entire Universe and therefore time itself[15][dubious –
discuss] began about 13.7 billion years ago in the big bang.
Do you know why wikipedia added the [dubious - discuss] tag there? Because you can't know what happened before the first 10^-43 seconds after the big bang as I have been trying to educate you about all thread long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang This singularity signals the breakdown of general relativity. How closely we can extrapolate towards the singularity is debated—certainly no closer than the end of the Planck epoch.
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/research/gr/public/bb_history.html Quantum cosmology considers questions about the origin of the Universe itself. This endeavours to describe quantum processes at the earliest times that we can conceive of a classical space-time, that is, the Planck epoch at 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds. Given that we as yet do not have a fully self-consistent theory of quantum gravity, this area of cosmology is more speculative.
No time before the big bang. Otherwise it would have HAD to have been in a larger universe, and this cycle repeats to infinity. Which also destroys multiverse, so take your pick.
How does it destroy multiverse? Do you honestly expect anybody here to believe that you know anything about brane cosmology and take your word for it? I have no idea what nonsense you just rattled off, but as I said before, in the ekpyrotic universe, "the big bang is not the beginning of time; rather, it is a bridge to a pre-existing contracting era":
Whatever atheists didn't take atheism to its foregone conclusion, as you aren't at present, has no bearing on the argument, "retarded wand" waving notwithstanding.
Tell me, why do I need an explanation on how life began in order to reject your claims that a gent 2,000 years ago died to cure some mystic illness?
What are you asking me to prove there was nothing?. Thats your job and what you believe in.
Your picture is also totally incorrect. When man and woman ate of the tree, then only did sin come. They were not created that way with original sin.
Jesus is the son of God. He is not God himself. All the qualities of God is expressed through his Son.
God did not kill himself. Jesus laid his life down for everyone voluntarily.
No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded."John 10:18
Barnes notes on the Bible: The patriot dies for his country on the field of battle; the merchant exposes his life for gain; and the Son of God had a right to put himself in the way of danger and of death, when a dying world needed such an atoning sacrifice. This shows the special love of Jesus. His death was voluntary. His coming was voluntary - the fruit of love. His death was the fruit of love. He was permitted to choose the time and mode of his death. He did. He chose the most painful, lingering, ignominious manner of death then known to man, and thus showed his love.
Not to sound like a broken record, but again I will say that historic Jesus and the crucifixation = Historic Fact
Repent and believe on your salvation = Saved.
I also love how that poster calls evolution "magic"
We all know some process was behind it. We just say there was divine intervention behind it. That magic is what you call randomness.
Watching creationists try to poke fun at science is like watching a bronze-leaguer try to give advice to a pro-gamer.
Only people poking fun of science here are the atheists. I see no conflict from my standpoint. You however, do not stand on anything solid but illogical metaphysical ideas.
So what was the first era and how would that have happened?. Now you hate me for asking that:/
An alternative to the big bang now?. Dated 2002. No real evidence, No real proof, No strong agreement among modern day cosmologists etc.
You`re right in that we are both not physicists, but you dont have to be one to grasp basic logic and reasoning. But even we can both see how dumb the cyclic universe idea is. Not even going to waste my time discussing it.
space and time exist forever
Space is expanding in our universe. Exists forever?. Mind blown from contradiction(Sarcasm)
I know science hurts creationists, but that's big bang theory + evolution. Not atheism.
How so?. Science does not hurt creationists. Not at all. Science only proved to strengthen my faith. That is atheism by the way. We call your nothing(illogical Chaos Gods), our Something(God) and all things divinely ordained and created for a purpose Life(the infinite question of "why" and "how" also resolved as a bonus). Insert your magic + randomness anywhere you want(actually, insert it everywhere right?)
Sure. To establish his kingdom forever. Its been a long process of us sinning first(Adam and eve), realizing we cant atone for our sins and evil by our own strength(Receiving and trying to follow the Law of Moses), God makes things much easier for us(The new covenant) and demonstrates his righteousness and forgiveness by his Son becoming a sacrifice for all sin once and for all, We are now in the period being called to repent and accept that salvation.
When the time runs out, God will destroy all evil and sin and all people that deliberately refuse to repent of their evil. People who worship idols, and the works of their hands. All who lie and choose the path of falseness.
Global famine(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1350009/Food-prices-rocket-50-global-hunger-epidemic-causes-riots-famines.html), War(No need to elaborate on this), Asteroids hitting the earth(We have one actually headed toward us next year in March but will probably miss and hopefully the earths orbit wont pull it down, then there is 99942_Apophis one is 2026, Asteroid 2011 AG5, but whatever the speculation here, the possibility is there) and all sorts of destruction will take place. Pretty sure the Yellowstone super volcano will erupt, because that makes a lot of sense for the figurative expressions used in the Book of Revelations.
Then there is rightly so a happy ending. God will judge, Save, Condemn, and serve justice when all this nonsense of life is done and dusted with. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." Revelation 21:5
The sequence of end events leading to the above will begin to take place when this is fulfilled. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:14
What if the "original life" was a proto-cell? What if both abiogenesis
and god exist?
Proto-cells, a hypothetical that has yet to be observed but close-at-hand all the same? It's abiogenesis all over again. Regardless, it looks like life to me.
No one is saying abiogenesis would disprove God.
Quote:
I still see no evidence for your claims or proof that
there has to be "original life", whatever the heck that is.
No proof that there has to be "original life," just a lack of evidence to the contrary.
I already explained it to you once and you ignored it. Quantum mechanics
is a complete theory. It's not intuitive because we don't live on the
quantum level, which only means that you're supposed to have some
humility and recognize that your common sense view does not necessarily
have to reflect reality. The universe can still work just fine with
non-determinism. QM has proved that.
You gave me two examples of causeless effects. One of which is directly referred to as phenomena. Both of which are new arrivals in the scientific world. Case closed on QM? You'd be as well-served closing the case on gravity. No cause for gravity by reason of consensus!
Quote:
Alright, going by your logic, all the life that we've seen had its own
progenitor. So who created god?
A simple question that we've been asking for pages but nobody can give a
straight answer for.
So you mean to say "no one did" isn't a straight answer.
If whoever created us isn't God, they had to have been created.
How so?. Science does not hurt creationists. Not at all. Science only proved to strengthen my faith. That is atheism by the way. We call your nothing(illogical Chaos Gods), our Something(God) and all things divinely ordained and created for a purpose Life(the infinite question of "why" and "how" also resolved as a bonus). Insert your magic + randomness anywhere you want(actually, insert it everywhere right?)
So what was the first era and how would that have happened?. Now you hate me for asking that:/
Go read the article & do more research instead of continuing to propagate ignorance. Your entire position depends on humans being ignorant so that you can fill the gap with your god.
The reason so many of you (like taintedwisp & soulcarver) hate science is because that leaves less things for your God to do. Over the ages, God has become more & more useless. Not to mention less powerful:
How so?. Science does not hurt creationists. Not at all. Science only proved to strengthen my faith.
Yes, yes, I know that all theists are obligated to say that. Science only "strengthens" your faith. That's why you've been arguing against evolution all thread long and why we've been using science to destroy your position. That's why you believe in virgin births, talking donkeys and why your holy book is replete with scientific inaccuracies. That's why none of you seem to have any clue that the big bang, evolution, and abiogenesis are all totally distinct and unconnected scientific theories, none of which are a requirement for atheism - aka the "dogmatic" and "religious" doctrine of not being convinced that an invisible man in the sky created everything.
I really wish theists would stop pretending that science strengthens their faith. It's an oxymoron and we all know you're lying to yourselves. If science strengthened your faith, then 93% of the national academy of sciences wouldn't be agnostic.
You know its funny, you cant see atoms, yet you believe in them... just
saying.
I never said we have to see something to believe it, just provide evidence/proof. But actually we can "see" atoms with a scanning electron microscope: http://science.howstuffworks.com/atom10.htm
You gave me two examples of causeless effects. One of which is directly
referred to as phenomena. Both of which are new arrivals in the
scientific world. Case closed on QM? You'd be as well-served closing the
case on gravity. No cause for gravity by reason of consensus!
Just because a theory is complete does not mean we've figured out everything about a certain topic. Newton's theory of gravitation was complete, and it still was even after Einstein discovered general relativity, which gives us better yet totally different equations for gravity. The uncertainty principle isn't just going to go away when we learn more.
Quote:
So you mean to say "no one did" isn't a straight answer.
The only intellectually honest answer is "I don't know". I really don't see why you guys have such a hard time living in observable reality that you feel the need to make up answers. All humans fear the unknown, but does living with uncertainty bother you that much?
Quote:
If whoever created us isn't God, they had to have been created.
For the bajillionth time, how do you know God wasn't created?
"For the bajillionth time, how do you know God wasn't created?"
Well, common sense (to some people) would say God can't be created because that wouldn't make sense. If God was created, He wouldn't really be a God. The Christian God wasn't created, because He always was, even before time. That's (most of us's) our explanation. It's kind of one of those things where you have to have faith. Still don't see why this is important, though. If there is a God, it's not for us to try to find out. If God doesn't exist, then it should be discussed. You can see why we won't come to an agreement on this anytime soon based on that.
When you read the Gospels, you really don't feel anything? Do you feel like the words echo inside you, or do you feel nothing but just like reading any other book?
Or do you feel some form of resistance in your perception or some kind of blockage or difficulty?
Honestly please.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
When you read the Gospels, you really don't feel anything? Do you feel like the words echo inside you, or do you feel nothing but just like reading any other book?
Or do you feel some form of resistance in your perception or some kind of blockage or difficulty?
Honestly please.
I feel what I normally feel when I read a good book. However at the end of the day, I close the book and belay those thoughts of "Do I really have to murder my neighbour if he works on the sabbath?" Then I get to the bible's stupidest verses;
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)
“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)
‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)
“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)
“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)
"For the bajillionth time, how do you know God wasn't created?"
Well, common sense (to some people) would say God can't be created because that wouldn't make sense. If God was created, He wouldn't really be a God. The Christian God wasn't created, because He always was, even before time. That's (most of us's) our explanation. It's kind of one of those things where you have to have faith. Still don't see why this is important, though. If there is a God, it's not for us to try to find out. If God doesn't exist, then it should be discussed. You can see why we won't come to an agreement on this anytime soon based on that.
The only reason God is the "uncaused cause" and breaks the link of infinite regress is because theists explicitly defined him that way, not because there is any evidence. I'm good with that so long as you guys recognize it too.
If there is a god I'd hope we try to detect his presence scientifically. I believe that humans, given enough knowledge, can understand everything about the universe. For example, none of us can visualize a tesseract, a 4-dimensional cube. You could say that it's beyond our ken, much like you could never teach a dog to read or write. And yet, we're perfectly capable of expressing a tesseract mathematically and exploring its properties. If there was a god and I was a scientist, I wouldn't just give up. I'd try to figure out how God works, what he is made of, etc.
When you read the Gospels, you really don't feel anything? Do you feel
like the words echo inside you, or do you feel nothing but just like
reading any other book?
Or do you feel some form of resistance in your perception or some kind
of blockage or difficulty?
Honestly please.
At best I take Einstein's position:
The word 'god' is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
- Albert Einstein
At worst I simply have nothing but contempt for a book which gives instructions on how to keep and beat slaves, was responsible for so many atrocities, and whose only purpose is to make us feel pathetic, small, hate our own bodies, and makes us feel like we need redemption and forgiveness for the mere act of existing, which none of us asked for by the way. And we're supposed to regard all this as some sort of "deep wisdom" instead of bronze-age scribblings on parchment.
I guess it depends what mood I'm in or what section I'm reading. :P
It does have good bits in it:
"Don't do what everyone else does, if what they do is wrong." (I find this one of particular relevance when it comes to religion)
"This is my commandment, That ye love one another."
"Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother: And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart."
However, the section where God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son particularly brings out the loathing. Right before he's about to do it, an angel pops out and says "PSYCH BRA! JUST TESTING YOUR FAITH DAWG, LOL".
How can you just not hate that crap? God reveals himself to be such a petty and wretched creature from that one story. Or the one where he ruins Job's life just because of a bet God had with Satan. Or the one where he wipes out all of humanity in a giant flood.
When you read the Gospels, you really don't feel anything? Do you feel like the words echo inside you, or do you feel nothing but just like reading any other book?
Or do you feel some form of resistance in your perception or some kind of blockage or difficulty?
When you read the Gospels, you really don't feel anything? Do you feel like the words echo inside you, or do you feel nothing but just like reading any other book?
Or do you feel some form of resistance in your perception or some kind of blockage or difficulty?
Honestly please.
Dont ask something silly like this when you know you`ll get an uneducated sarcasm reply. The bible is the word of God whether someone believes in it or not, there`s no magic force jumping at you when you read it as an incentive to believe. The truth does not need that. The atheists have already lost this thread. They dont accept God exists, how much less will they know anything about the bible?.
I feel what I normally feel when I read a good book. However at the end of the day, I close the book and belay those thoughts of 1."Do I really have to murder my neighbour if he works on the sabbath?" Then I get to the bible's stupidest verses;
2.“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
3.“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)
4.“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)
5.“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
6.“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)
7.“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)
8.‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)
9.“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)
10.“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)
1. You`re not an Israelite living at the time this was commanded.
2. I dont see anything wrong with this. In terms of teaching the scriptures, The woman should not overrule the man. Does not lower the importance of women in anyway. Just their role in that regard should not be above a man in the ministry of the Gospel.
3. Slay both man and woman - Nothing could justify such an exterminating decree but the absolute authority of God. This was given: all the reasons of it we do not know; but this we know well, The Judge of all the earth doth right. This war was not for plunder, for God commanded that all the property as well as all the people should be destroyed.
4. I dont see whats wrong with this. They practice lies, false divinations, and cheat people perpetually.
5. Long answer: In order to understand the verse you need to read the chapter. The first four verses are an explanation of their refusal to play their native songs for the amusement of their captors. These are people beaten and battered, they were exiled from their homeland and their temple was destroyed. It's safe to say that the author is pretty unhappy about this.
The rest of the chapter is the author asking God to curse, first himself if he is ever to forget his homeland, and then the Edomites (who destroyed Jerusalem) and finally the Babylonians. He goes into pretty graphic detail there, but it's absolutely not a depiction of God killing children, or even God saying these things.//
6.The bible is not condoning this behaviour, which seems to be what you are worried about. What happened is a sad case of someone putting hospitality before what is right. He pushed the concubine out the door because the people outside the door were demanding to have sex with the man who took them in. He felt he had to appease the "hellraisers" outside the door because they wouldn't let up in their demanding to have sex with the other man.
It doesn't anywhere say that this man made the right decision, it just says it happened. But later on, the man cuts up the dead body of this woman and mails it to everyone in Israel saying "has anything this horrible ever happened before?" He was obviously very disgusted by it all, even though he shouldn't have offered her to appease the gang outside.
This is most definitely still a troubling verse, but the Bible isn't here to sugar coat, it's here to tell us truth, and that means exposing just how evil man can be, and man can be unfathomably evil.//
You also missed the parts (before and after this incident) where the writer says,"This was a time when there was no king, and every man did whatever he felt like doing." The Old Testament is a pretty good history of what the world used to be like. It's also interesting that the people in this chapter were Palestinians living in Gaza. It's hard to imagine, but the world was a really shocking place in those days, so it's distressing to read what it used to be like.
7. Some contention here in translation. Though its unlikely she was really sacrificed.
8. Was only a test. God stopped him.
9. Whats wrong with this?. Husbands are to be respected as the head of the household. It does not imply women should merely roll over. Remember too what is commanded of husbands: Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her Ephesians 5:25
10.Christian meekness. Some masters(people that own maids/manservants etc) are not all kind and hospitable, but fulfill all duty in earnest and humility.
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Curse PremiumWhat if the "original life" was a proto-cell? What if both abiogenesis and god exist? I still see no evidence for your claims or proof that there has to be "original life", whatever the heck that is.
Because it's a proven law of nature:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality
I already explained it to you once and you ignored it. Quantum mechanics is a complete theory. It's not intuitive because we don't live on the quantum level, which only means that you're supposed to have some humility and recognize that your common sense view does not necessarily have to reflect reality. The universe can still work just fine with non-determinism. QM has proved that.
Alright, going by your logic, all the life that we've seen had its own progenitor. So who created god?
A simple question that we've been asking for pages but nobody can give a straight answer for.
@Gradius12: Go
Because it's a proven law of nature:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality
I already explained it to you once and you ignored it. Quantum mechanics is a complete theory. It's not intuitive because we don't live on the quantum level, which only means that you're supposed to have some humility and recognize that your common sense view does not necessarily have to reflect reality. The universe can still work just fine with non-determinism. QM has proved that.
Lol, What are you linking Wave-particle duality for again?. I dont see how this helps your argument whatsoever. And who created the laws of nature again?. They created themselves you say?. Ah fascinating!, Shalt` we drink tea together and discuss your logic in detail sometime?.
So who created god?
Do you erroneously think time is eternal?.;o. If so, why do you have a problem in thinking God is eternal?. Time is a dimension
Both Galileo and Newton and most people up until the 20th century thought that time was the same for everyone everywhere. This is the basis for timelines, where time is a parameter. Our modern conception of time is based on Einstein's theory of relativity, in which rates of time run differently depending on relative motion, and space and time are merged into spacetime, where we live on a world line rather than a timeline. Thus time is part of a coordinate, in this view. Physicists believe the entire Universe and therefore time itself[15][dubious – discuss] began about 13.7 billion years ago in the big bang. (See Time in Cosmology below) Whether it will ever come to an end is an open question. (See philosophy of physics.)
Refer also to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
No time before the big bang. Otherwise it would have HAD to have been in a larger universe, and this cycle repeats to infinity. Which also destroys multiverse, so take your pick.
FDF linked me a really stupid .gif of two branes colliding. Under what contraints to these branes function and work on?, In what are they contained?, How were they created?. Are branes eternal?.;p
No matter how explicit the processes and how in detail we look at how it started everything. Ultimately the final answer goes down to God. No need for absurd wonky logic and deliberate excuses against the obvious.
Learn your sciences please, and more importantly the nature of "time".
The oppression of the atheists(in how they view time) will never again dominate this thread.
So to answer your question again.
In soviet Russia, Time creates God
In reality, God created the universe and time(measures of difference between A and B, affected by Space(spatial dimensions (length, width, height)).
God is eternal
Universe = product of creator = God
You`d have to be mentally unstable to think the universe was created on any sort of randomness or chance.
Atheist alternatives?? =Burden of Proof. Insert toothfairy, multiverse, parallel universe, Ceiling cat etc. All fails.
GOD
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Curse PremiumAnd who created god again?. He created himself you say?. Ah fascinating!,
Still more logical than this:
But seriously, prove that there was once nothing. You keep saying it over & over but always cower away from providing proof. I also love how that poster calls evolution "magic". It just goes to show that when you know absolutely nothing about a scientific theory it will look as magical to you as a Boeing airplane would look to a caveman. Watching creationists try to poke fun at science is like watching a bronze-leaguer try to give advice to a pro-gamer.
Do you know why wikipedia added the [dubious - discuss] tag there? Because you can't know what happened before the first 10^-43 seconds after the big bang as I have been trying to educate you about all thread long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
This singularity signals the breakdown of general relativity. How closely we can extrapolate towards the singularity is debated—certainly no closer than the end of the Planck epoch.
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/research/gr/public/bb_history.html
Quantum cosmology considers questions about the origin of the Universe itself. This endeavours to describe quantum processes at the earliest times that we can conceive of a classical space-time, that is, the Planck epoch at 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds. Given that we as yet do not have a fully self-consistent theory of quantum gravity, this area of cosmology is more speculative.
How does it destroy multiverse? Do you honestly expect anybody here to believe that you know anything about brane cosmology and take your word for it? I have no idea what nonsense you just rattled off, but as I said before, in the ekpyrotic universe, "the big bang is not the beginning of time; rather, it is a bridge to a pre-existing contracting era":
http://www.actionbioscience.org/newfrontiers/steinhardt.html
Neither you or me are physicists. Try to accept this fact.
Tell me, why do I need an explanation on how life began in order to reject your claims that a gent 2,000 years ago died to cure some mystic illness?
@EternalWraith: Go
Does god have a goal with this world?
I know science hurts creationists, but that's big bang theory + evolution. Not atheism.
Debate this guy if you want:
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
@Gradius12: Go
What are you asking me to prove there was nothing?. Thats your job and what you believe in.
Your picture is also totally incorrect. When man and woman ate of the tree, then only did sin come. They were not created that way with original sin.
Jesus is the son of God. He is not God himself. All the qualities of God is expressed through his Son.
God did not kill himself. Jesus laid his life down for everyone voluntarily.
No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded."John 10:18
Barnes notes on the Bible:
The patriot dies for his country on the field of battle; the merchant exposes his life for gain; and the Son of God had a right to put himself in the way of danger and of death, when a dying world needed such an atoning sacrifice. This shows the special love of Jesus. His death was voluntary. His coming was voluntary - the fruit of love. His death was the fruit of love. He was permitted to choose the time and mode of his death. He did. He chose the most painful, lingering, ignominious manner of death then known to man, and thus showed his love.
Not to sound like a broken record, but again I will say that historic Jesus and the crucifixation = Historic Fact
Repent and believe on your salvation = Saved.
I also love how that poster calls evolution "magic"
We all know some process was behind it. We just say there was divine intervention behind it. That magic is what you call randomness.
Watching creationists try to poke fun at science is like watching a bronze-leaguer try to give advice to a pro-gamer.
Only people poking fun of science here are the atheists. I see no conflict from my standpoint. You however, do not stand on anything solid but illogical metaphysical ideas.
but as I said before, in the ekpyrotic universe, "the big bang is not the beginning of time; rather, it is a bridge to a pre-existing contracting era":
http://www.actionbioscience.org/newfrontiers/steinhardt.html
So what was the first era and how would that have happened?. Now you hate me for asking that:/
An alternative to the big bang now?. Dated 2002. No real evidence, No real proof, No strong agreement among modern day cosmologists etc.
You`re right in that we are both not physicists, but you dont have to be one to grasp basic logic and reasoning. But even we can both see how dumb the cyclic universe idea is. Not even going to waste my time discussing it.
space and time exist forever
Space is expanding in our universe. Exists forever?. Mind blown from contradiction(Sarcasm)
Do you honestly expect anybody here to believe that you know anything about brane cosmology and take your word for it?
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Brane_cosmology
How so?. Science does not hurt creationists. Not at all. Science only proved to strengthen my faith. That is atheism by the way. We call your nothing(illogical Chaos Gods), our Something(God) and all things divinely ordained and created for a purpose Life(the infinite question of "why" and "how" also resolved as a bonus). Insert your magic + randomness anywhere you want(actually, insert it everywhere right?)
Sure. To establish his kingdom forever. Its been a long process of us sinning first(Adam and eve), realizing we cant atone for our sins and evil by our own strength(Receiving and trying to follow the Law of Moses), God makes things much easier for us(The new covenant) and demonstrates his righteousness and forgiveness by his Son becoming a sacrifice for all sin once and for all, We are now in the period being called to repent and accept that salvation.
When the time runs out, God will destroy all evil and sin and all people that deliberately refuse to repent of their evil. People who worship idols, and the works of their hands. All who lie and choose the path of falseness.
Global famine(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1350009/Food-prices-rocket-50-global-hunger-epidemic-causes-riots-famines.html), War(No need to elaborate on this), Asteroids hitting the earth(We have one actually headed toward us next year in March but will probably miss and hopefully the earths orbit wont pull it down, then there is 99942_Apophis one is 2026, Asteroid 2011 AG5, but whatever the speculation here, the possibility is there) and all sorts of destruction will take place. Pretty sure the Yellowstone super volcano will erupt, because that makes a lot of sense for the figurative expressions used in the Book of Revelations.
Then there is rightly so a happy ending. God will judge, Save, Condemn, and serve justice when all this nonsense of life is done and dusted with.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
Revelation 21:5
The sequence of end events leading to the above will begin to take place when this is fulfilled.
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Matthew 24:14
Proto-cells, a hypothetical that has yet to be observed but close-at-hand all the same? It's abiogenesis all over again. Regardless, it looks like life to me.
No one is saying abiogenesis would disprove God.
No proof that there has to be "original life," just a lack of evidence to the contrary.
You gave me two examples of causeless effects. One of which is directly referred to as phenomena. Both of which are new arrivals in the scientific world. Case closed on QM? You'd be as well-served closing the case on gravity. No cause for gravity by reason of consensus!
So you mean to say "no one did" isn't a straight answer.
If whoever created us isn't God, they had to have been created.
You know its funny, you cant see atoms, yet you believe in them... just saying.
Do you know what a straw-man is?
Evolution. Thermodynamics. Big bang cosmology.
"Not sciences."
Okay Mr. Scientist. Oh, wait.
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Curse PremiumOh wow, now you're telling ME what I believe so that you can keep up your strawman attacks. Beautiful.
Then you guys are polytheists. And yet, you look down on other polytheistic religions like that of the ancient greeks/romans. Hypocrisy.
Go read the article & do more research instead of continuing to propagate ignorance. Your entire position depends on humans being ignorant so that you can fill the gap with your god.
The reason so many of you (like taintedwisp & soulcarver) hate science is because that leaves less things for your God to do. Over the ages, God has become more & more useless. Not to mention less powerful:
Yes, yes, I know that all theists are obligated to say that. Science only "strengthens" your faith. That's why you've been arguing against evolution all thread long and why we've been using science to destroy your position. That's why you believe in virgin births, talking donkeys and why your holy book is replete with scientific inaccuracies. That's why none of you seem to have any clue that the big bang, evolution, and abiogenesis are all totally distinct and unconnected scientific theories, none of which are a requirement for atheism - aka the "dogmatic" and "religious" doctrine of not being convinced that an invisible man in the sky created everything.
I really wish theists would stop pretending that science strengthens their faith. It's an oxymoron and we all know you're lying to yourselves. If science strengthened your faith, then 93% of the national academy of sciences wouldn't be agnostic.
I never said we have to see something to believe it, just provide evidence/proof. But actually we can "see" atoms with a scanning electron microscope: http://science.howstuffworks.com/atom10.htm
Just because a theory is complete does not mean we've figured out everything about a certain topic. Newton's theory of gravitation was complete, and it still was even after Einstein discovered general relativity, which gives us better yet totally different equations for gravity. The uncertainty principle isn't just going to go away when we learn more.
The only intellectually honest answer is "I don't know". I really don't see why you guys have such a hard time living in observable reality that you feel the need to make up answers. All humans fear the unknown, but does living with uncertainty bother you that much?
For the bajillionth time, how do you know God wasn't created?
@Gradius12: Go
"For the bajillionth time, how do you know God wasn't created?"
Well, common sense (to some people) would say God can't be created because that wouldn't make sense. If God was created, He wouldn't really be a God. The Christian God wasn't created, because He always was, even before time. That's (most of us's) our explanation. It's kind of one of those things where you have to have faith. Still don't see why this is important, though. If there is a God, it's not for us to try to find out. If God doesn't exist, then it should be discussed. You can see why we won't come to an agreement on this anytime soon based on that.
Question to non-believers:
When you read the Gospels, you really don't feel anything? Do you feel like the words echo inside you, or do you feel nothing but just like reading any other book?
Or do you feel some form of resistance in your perception or some kind of blockage or difficulty?
Honestly please.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
I feel what I normally feel when I read a good book. However at the end of the day, I close the book and belay those thoughts of "Do I really have to murder my neighbour if he works on the sabbath?" Then I get to the bible's stupidest verses;
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)
“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)
‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)
“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)
“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)
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Curse PremiumThe only reason God is the "uncaused cause" and breaks the link of infinite regress is because theists explicitly defined him that way, not because there is any evidence. I'm good with that so long as you guys recognize it too.
If there is a god I'd hope we try to detect his presence scientifically. I believe that humans, given enough knowledge, can understand everything about the universe. For example, none of us can visualize a tesseract, a 4-dimensional cube. You could say that it's beyond our ken, much like you could never teach a dog to read or write. And yet, we're perfectly capable of expressing a tesseract mathematically and exploring its properties. If there was a god and I was a scientist, I wouldn't just give up. I'd try to figure out how God works, what he is made of, etc.
At best I take Einstein's position:
The word 'god' is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
- Albert Einstein
At worst I simply have nothing but contempt for a book which gives instructions on how to keep and beat slaves, was responsible for so many atrocities, and whose only purpose is to make us feel pathetic, small, hate our own bodies, and makes us feel like we need redemption and forgiveness for the mere act of existing, which none of us asked for by the way. And we're supposed to regard all this as some sort of "deep wisdom" instead of bronze-age scribblings on parchment.
I guess it depends what mood I'm in or what section I'm reading. :P
It does have good bits in it:
"Don't do what everyone else does, if what they do is wrong." (I find this one of particular relevance when it comes to religion)
"This is my commandment, That ye love one another."
"Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother: And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart."
However, the section where God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son particularly brings out the loathing. Right before he's about to do it, an angel pops out and says "PSYCH BRA! JUST TESTING YOUR FAITH DAWG, LOL".
How can you just not hate that crap? God reveals himself to be such a petty and wretched creature from that one story. Or the one where he ruins Job's life just because of a bet God had with Satan. Or the one where he wipes out all of humanity in a giant flood.
I feel that I'm wasting time
Dont ask something silly like this when you know you`ll get an uneducated sarcasm reply. The bible is the word of God whether someone believes in it or not, there`s no magic force jumping at you when you read it as an incentive to believe. The truth does not need that.
The atheists have already lost this thread. They dont accept God exists, how much less will they know anything about the bible?.
1. You`re not an Israelite living at the time this was commanded.
2. I dont see anything wrong with this. In terms of teaching the scriptures, The woman should not overrule the man. Does not lower the importance of women in anyway. Just their role in that regard should not be above a man in the ministry of the Gospel.
3. Slay both man and woman - Nothing could justify such an exterminating decree but the absolute authority of God. This was given: all the reasons of it we do not know; but this we know well, The Judge of all the earth doth right. This war was not for plunder, for God commanded that all the property as well as all the people should be destroyed.
4. I dont see whats wrong with this. They practice lies, false divinations, and cheat people perpetually.
5. Long answer: In order to understand the verse you need to read the chapter. The first four verses are an explanation of their refusal to play their native songs for the amusement of their captors. These are people beaten and battered, they were exiled from their homeland and their temple was destroyed. It's safe to say that the author is pretty unhappy about this.
The rest of the chapter is the author asking God to curse, first himself if he is ever to forget his homeland, and then the Edomites (who destroyed Jerusalem) and finally the Babylonians. He goes into pretty graphic detail there, but it's absolutely not a depiction of God killing children, or even God saying these things.//
6.The bible is not condoning this behaviour, which seems to be what you are worried about. What happened is a sad case of someone putting hospitality before what is right. He pushed the concubine out the door because the people outside the door were demanding to have sex with the man who took them in. He felt he had to appease the "hellraisers" outside the door because they wouldn't let up in their demanding to have sex with the other man.
It doesn't anywhere say that this man made the right decision, it just says it happened. But later on, the man cuts up the dead body of this woman and mails it to everyone in Israel saying "has anything this horrible ever happened before?" He was obviously very disgusted by it all, even though he shouldn't have offered her to appease the gang outside.
This is most definitely still a troubling verse, but the Bible isn't here to sugar coat, it's here to tell us truth, and that means exposing just how evil man can be, and man can be unfathomably evil.//
You also missed the parts (before and after this incident) where the writer says,"This was a time when there was no king, and every man did whatever he felt like doing." The Old Testament is a pretty good history of what the world used to be like. It's also interesting that the people in this chapter were Palestinians living in Gaza. It's hard to imagine, but the world was a really shocking place in those days, so it's distressing to read what it used to be like.
7. Some contention here in translation. Though its unlikely she was really sacrificed.
8. Was only a test. God stopped him.
9. Whats wrong with this?. Husbands are to be respected as the head of the household. It does not imply women should merely roll over. Remember too what is commanded of husbands:
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her Ephesians 5:25
10.Christian meekness. Some masters(people that own maids/manservants etc) are not all kind and hospitable, but fulfill all duty in earnest and humility.