Oh it's not this site. It's the custom map scene as a whole. It's very... quiet. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, either people are keeping their projects very quiet or there just aren't many.
Im betting on the latter. The popularity system is only partially to blame. The notion of all the "cool" maps stuck on pages 10-20, while the terrible maps are on page one, is really nonsense. If anything, all the pages are filled with bad maps. The few good ones failing only because of poor advertising/marketing(Yes, its something you should be willing to do)
The thing with the Starcraft 2 generation is that people are expecting a much higher quality set of maps. We dont want to see the same old Td`s, Footmen wars, clones, etc etc. What worked for Warcraft 3, isn`t going to cut it here.
Thats not to say those ideas are null and void. Just, they need to be re-imagined through the now powerful Galaxy editor.
Its like..mappers are developing Playstation 2 games for the Ps3. Know what I mean?
But of course, tapping into the power of GE is ...work..a lot of work...to say the very least, and that dissuades a lot of mappers. I dont think they can keep up with the pressure.
I beleive it was me that helped you if was regarding your cliffwork :P
As for work, I have 3 projects that I have been working on, 2 are currently playable to an extent but not how I want them to be, I have not announced them as of yet because I don't want a huge hype and then the struggle of the fight with the popularity system, I would rather keep polishing my maps and once its slightly easier to have your map played release it.
After reading through certain game design related threads, I understand everything that is going on in my game but I am dumbing it down so that anyone can pick it up at once, and this another huge step in the design of any game.
The thing with the Starcraft 2 generation is that people are expecting a much higher quality set of maps. We dont want to see the same old Td`s, Footmen wars, clones, etc etc. What worked for Warcraft 3, isn`t going to cut it here.
Thats not to say those ideas are null and void. Just, they need to be re-imagined through the now powerful Galaxy editor.
Its like..mappers are developing Playstation 2 games for the Ps3. Know what I mean?
But of course, tapping into the power of GE is ...work..a lot of work...to say the very least, and that dissuades a lot of mappers. I dont think they can keep up with the pressure.
Unfortunately you're right. The standard for custom games has risen considerably. I remember playing WC3 in the early days and how simple some of the most popular custom games were back then.
We're currently dealing with a new generation of gamers, expecting much higher quality. The GE surely does offer this, but like you said, it takes exponentially more time to master the GE because with its greater ability comes much greater complexity. This in turn increases the time needed to develop anything that actually has a chance of catching on and being played.
Meanwhile, the popularity system filters anything out that is not top-tier content, forcing developers to either go all-in or stop trying. I think a lot of devs here started off with high hopes, only to discover that nobody is going to be interested in something that's not either uber original or some piece of art crafted over months of hard labour. Nobody will create stuff nobody cares about. This essentially disqualifies 80% of potential content developers.
I don't think this is ever going to change though. Warcraft 3 was unique in that its customizability and relative simplicity were available at the right time, a time when content could be simple enough and yet popular. Creativity alone would suffice as you did not need to be a code guru, professional artist, or have tons of spare time and a willingness to master the editor.
Finally, now that maps are published on B-net, and without a LAN feature, any third-party map databases have lost much of their value, except when they are specifically focused on the dev community, like sc2mapster.
We'll simply have to accept the fact that the SC2 map dev community will be considerably smaller.
I take it the both of you haven't played on BNET? Last I checked the majority of the first page maps were NOT high quality. This notion that people are expecting more is something pulled out of an ass. There isn't a single first page map that does anything that WC3 couldn't do. Furthermore, our beloved Nexus Wars is actually a downgrade seeing as it's an inferior Footman Frenzy.
Don't try and give Blizzard leeway when they deserve none. The reason that the custom map scene has gone down the toilet is not that good maps need more time, or that people expect better maps (compared to WC3), or that people are just doing their own thing in secret. The reason is that they have royally fucked up the custom map system. Popularity, no cross-realm, no chat etc.. A lot of people have realized this and have decided that modding for SC2 is a waste of time. It's a snowball effect too, meaning that once you see some prominent or skilled people giving the middle finger to Blizzard then you consider doing so yourself.
I'm tired of the fanboys preaching that all we have to do is wait for HotS. Until proper fixes are implemented, each day that goes by sees further decline of the scene. By the time Blizzard takes their head out of their ass, it will be far too late (if it isn't already).
I take it the both of you haven't played on BNET? Last I checked the majority of the first page maps were NOT high quality. This notion that people are expecting more is something pulled out of an ass. There isn't a single first page map that does anything that WC3 couldn't do. Furthermore, our beloved Nexus Wars is actually a downgrade seeing as it's an inferior Footman Frenzy.
Yeah...the majority of first page maps are not high quality, but what does that have to do with anything?. The first page maps are pretty terrible, but then again, 90% of maps in the entire list are. Go to lower pages, and it usually gets pretty worse. The odd good map may get lost in there, but as I mentioned before, the popularity system is only partially to blame.
You need to understand that while the Warcraft 3 system has a few advantages to it. It also has many flaws. Making that same system for Starcraft 2 is just not applicable or entirely advisable for what they are trying to accomplish with B.net 2.
Your thinking is too narrow honestly. You aren`t seeing the bigger picture at all. Your whole point of view is centered on how it affects/revolves around YOU, a single mapper.
You should expand your thinking and see it from Blizzard`s perspective. Im not a fan boy at all. Believe what you want. I, however, understand the reasoning for a lot of the design behind B.net 2. But if you honestly think Blizzard is trying to screw its customers/mapping community on purpose, and you are too impatient for patches that will see the implementation of chat channels and the like, then your thoughts/attitude is askew and you should probably just quit mapping then.
Yeah...the majority of first page maps are not high quality, but what does that have to do with anything?...
Your thinking is too narrow honestly. You aren`t seeing the bigger picture at all. Your whole point of view is centered on how it affects/revolves around YOU, a single mapper...
But if you honestly think Blizzard is trying to screw its customers/mapping community on purpose, and you are too impatient for patches that will see the implementation of chat channels and the like, then your thoughts/attitude is askew and you should probably just quit mapping then.
You were the one who said one of the reasons for the scene's decline was that people's expectations were higher. You also said that the first page maps are there because they pass this "threshold" you imagined, and that the rest failed to do so. I'm just pointing out that this point of view is a complete fabrication. Do you have any sort of logic behind it?
My point of view is too narrow? I'm not seeing the bigger picture? No, my point of view is centered around that of a mapper. Notice how I removed the individual part from that. You think I'm wrong? Why don't you go ask the legions of mappers who have already quit. Oh wait, you can't because they are already fucking gone. Wake up and smell the roses, this scene had so much potential and now it is just pathetic.
When did I say Blizzard did this on purpose? Stop making shit up. I'm just saying they fucked up and are too invested in the current setup to do what needs to be done. I'm impatient because I'd be waiting for things that should have been there from day one. My view isn't skewed, yours is. I've already quit mapping, have fun lapping it up from Blizzard for the next few years.
I personally havent been on in months purely because of exams, but now that my time has freed up I'm going to finally finish my map. As to lack of projects, perhaps people are similiar to me and 'are' working on them but just ninja hush-hush until they complete.
Starcraft 2 isn't the only game people are playing...
There are just too many games for anyone to enjoy. I am sure some people that have Starcraft 2 have other games they would like to play like that shooting black op game.
Starcraft 2 isn't the only game people are playing...
There are just too many games for anyone to enjoy. I am sure some people that have Starcraft 2 have other games they would like to play like that shooting black op game.
And there were other games that people played during wc3.
There werent that many compared to now. The 3 year hype is over and now people are moving on. Some projects have stopped (like mine). Others just simply stopped map making to enjoy their time playing the game. Others have purchased the game but are now playing other games.
Before you start a flame war with me Eiviyn let me just say I am on the right page as you. We and many others have noticed the drop of activity.
I am merely shedding light to the subject of your question, "Where did everyone go?"
My post wasn't meant to be abrasive. I thought about re-phrasing it but I couldn't think of anything to rephrase it to.
What I'm saying is that there are only a handful of major titles released in the past few months and none were really RTS games. Sure, I imagine some people quit SC2 to go play Black Ops, but by comparison WC3 survived through the release of WoW, it's arguable spiritual successor. It begs the question of why would SC2 get hit so hard by games not even of the same genre when WC3 basically survived it's own successor?
I mean, I see tons of team requests in team recruitment forum, but I dont see much people applying. Everyone have their own ideas that they are unable to complete.
And still I dont see almost single good map on bnet. Some have epic systems(made by good galaxy coders) but are plain boring...
Best maps are STILL, overrun and retribution TD. That co-op rpg, Agents something else is also really good map. But its too dark on some areas, sometimes a bit slow, and balance between hard and easy changes too fast.
Ragnor Party is also not bad map.
Generally, seen few good maps but I can say that 95% of customs are bullshit.
SC2 has good multiplayer, excluding custom maps. But bnet's lack of features isnt really helping....
I play Sc2 like 2 hours a week probbly. Sometimes none. I play something around 4 hours a week MWLL(Crysis mod). That's it.
Its sad how games are shit today coz of marketing.
In my history games that I played constantly were:
...
MK3
Half Life and HL Deathmatch
Diablo 1
SC
Counter Strike
Warcraft 3 and WC3 modding
Diablo 2
Rainbow Six Vegas 2
Mechwarrior 4 MekTek
Street Fighter 4 (PC); until I broke 2 gamepads..
MWLL
I dont know If I forgot to add few.
Looking forward to new Mortal Combat, Little Big Planet 2, and Donkey Kong. Where I might buy Wii and PS3.
There is a lot of whining and doomsaying in the thread, some of you really need to just chill out and get some perspective. First up, if you're getting into modding purely for popularity...you're doing it for the wrong reasons. In my opinion, you should mod because you enjoy the process of modding itself.
A few years ago I was lucky enough to be invited to a community event in LA with the Command and Conquer 3 dev's. At dinner one night I was talking to the team lead and some of the designers, and it was unanimous that the first RTS to have modding anywhere near the scope of Quake 3 would be awesome and game-changing. At the time it was a nice blue sky idea that no one seriously think would ever happen (let alone one that would happen with a built-in steam-like system).
That game is Starcraft 2, and most (if not all) the complaints I've seen are due to issues that Blizzard has said they'll be fixing (or releasing, in the case of art export tools). The popularity system ya, is annoying and certainly has put some people off of modding...but they'll come back when its fixed. Its also pretty common to see a drop off of modders after the initial "oh this is new and shiny, lets tinker with it" phase. It is extremely hard, and time consuming to make and release a mod of any substantial scope...so it will take time to see big mods pop up. I'll go as far to say that we probably won't see a ton of activity in SC2 modding until it gets its first hugely popular mod (its Counterstrike, its Dota, etc.).
Bringing comparison's back to C&C3, right now I'm wrapping up my mod just so we can focus on our SC2 project 100%. After tinkering with SC2 modding, its really hard to even go back to C&C3. Very little actual dev support, a small fraction of the moddability and depth SC2 has, much smaller userbase (with it being likely that 99% of those who bought CNC3 didn't even know mods exist for it), no potential of having any sort of premium marketplace...oh and a tiny, minor issue that in order to even test the mod out, we have to spend 20-30minutes to compile it first. Even with all those annoyances, we've still spent years working on a mod...why? because we love it.
My post wasn't meant to be abrasive. I thought about re-phrasing it but I couldn't think of anything to rephrase it to.
So "what's your point?" has become a flame? Am I missing something or is this just plain pathetic? Eiviyn, why did you think about rephrasing it? I hope that claim was just an attempt to quiet down QueenGambit (if so, I applaud your political skills).
First up, if you're getting into modding purely for popularity...you're doing it for the wrong reasons. In my opinion, you should mod because you enjoy the process of modding itself.
The popularity system ya, is annoying and certainly has put some people off of modding...but they'll come back when its fixed. Its also pretty common to see a drop off of modders after the initial "oh this is new and shiny, lets tinker with it" phase. It is extremely hard, and time consuming to make and release a mod of any substantial scope...so it will take time to see big mods pop up. I'll go as far to say that we probably won't see a ton of activity in SC2 modding until it gets its first hugely popular mod (its Counterstrike, its Dota, etc.).
Even with all those annoyances, we've still spent years working on a mod...why? because we love it.
Way to take a black and white view of modding. You're definitely in the minority. No one is going to disagree with the notion that you should enjoy modding to be doing it. But, this idea that the fun of the process is the only viable reason is simplistic and naive. People normally like their work to be viewed and admired, that's just human nature. How many artists do you know who paint with the intention of being the only viewer? Don't forget about money as it can be made with modding. Also, part of the enjoyment comes from playing the end result yourself. Thus, the enjoyment of modding is a combination of factors.
Your prediction for the scene is wishful thinking. What makes you think that a fix is coming anytime soon? Why are you banking on people returning if/when it is fixed? A lot can happen between now and then (if then comes).
While I agree that the "shiny phase" is partially to blame for the decline in the scene, it should be noted that this effect was amplified by the various BNET problems. This "it takes time" argument is quite flawed. The game has been out for several months, even longer if you include beta. No one is asking for a total conversion or a fully developed DotA at this moment. But, we definitely should be seeing more than we are now. Notice how our beloved Nexus Wars is actually an inferior Footman Frenzy for example...
Normally people don't stalk forums. So in other words a lot of people will visit and then leave after checking some things out. Also the delay for movement and shooting which a lot of people bought sc2 for has made a lot quit for now. And blah blah blah, tons of other stuff I could get into.
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Im betting on the latter. The popularity system is only partially to blame. The notion of all the "cool" maps stuck on pages 10-20, while the terrible maps are on page one, is really nonsense. If anything, all the pages are filled with bad maps. The few good ones failing only because of poor advertising/marketing(Yes, its something you should be willing to do)
The thing with the Starcraft 2 generation is that people are expecting a much higher quality set of maps. We dont want to see the same old Td`s, Footmen wars, clones, etc etc. What worked for Warcraft 3, isn`t going to cut it here.
Thats not to say those ideas are null and void. Just, they need to be re-imagined through the now powerful Galaxy editor.
Its like..mappers are developing Playstation 2 games for the Ps3. Know what I mean?
But of course, tapping into the power of GE is ...work..a lot of work...to say the very least, and that dissuades a lot of mappers. I dont think they can keep up with the pressure.
@deathstrikeshdwkilr: Go
I beleive it was me that helped you if was regarding your cliffwork :P
As for work, I have 3 projects that I have been working on, 2 are currently playable to an extent but not how I want them to be, I have not announced them as of yet because I don't want a huge hype and then the struggle of the fight with the popularity system, I would rather keep polishing my maps and once its slightly easier to have your map played release it.
After reading through certain game design related threads, I understand everything that is going on in my game but I am dumbing it down so that anyone can pick it up at once, and this another huge step in the design of any game.
@nevjmac: Go
Yep, was totally you. =)
Unfortunately you're right. The standard for custom games has risen considerably. I remember playing WC3 in the early days and how simple some of the most popular custom games were back then.
We're currently dealing with a new generation of gamers, expecting much higher quality. The GE surely does offer this, but like you said, it takes exponentially more time to master the GE because with its greater ability comes much greater complexity. This in turn increases the time needed to develop anything that actually has a chance of catching on and being played.
Meanwhile, the popularity system filters anything out that is not top-tier content, forcing developers to either go all-in or stop trying. I think a lot of devs here started off with high hopes, only to discover that nobody is going to be interested in something that's not either uber original or some piece of art crafted over months of hard labour. Nobody will create stuff nobody cares about. This essentially disqualifies 80% of potential content developers.
I don't think this is ever going to change though. Warcraft 3 was unique in that its customizability and relative simplicity were available at the right time, a time when content could be simple enough and yet popular. Creativity alone would suffice as you did not need to be a code guru, professional artist, or have tons of spare time and a willingness to master the editor.
Finally, now that maps are published on B-net, and without a LAN feature, any third-party map databases have lost much of their value, except when they are specifically focused on the dev community, like sc2mapster.
We'll simply have to accept the fact that the SC2 map dev community will be considerably smaller.
@EternalWraith: Go @WallArcher: Go
I take it the both of you haven't played on BNET? Last I checked the majority of the first page maps were NOT high quality. This notion that people are expecting more is something pulled out of an ass. There isn't a single first page map that does anything that WC3 couldn't do. Furthermore, our beloved Nexus Wars is actually a downgrade seeing as it's an inferior Footman Frenzy.
Don't try and give Blizzard leeway when they deserve none. The reason that the custom map scene has gone down the toilet is not that good maps need more time, or that people expect better maps (compared to WC3), or that people are just doing their own thing in secret. The reason is that they have royally fucked up the custom map system. Popularity, no cross-realm, no chat etc.. A lot of people have realized this and have decided that modding for SC2 is a waste of time. It's a snowball effect too, meaning that once you see some prominent or skilled people giving the middle finger to Blizzard then you consider doing so yourself.
I'm tired of the fanboys preaching that all we have to do is wait for HotS. Until proper fixes are implemented, each day that goes by sees further decline of the scene. By the time Blizzard takes their head out of their ass, it will be far too late (if it isn't already).
@Karawasa: Go
after reading some of ur posts i realised ur a suck up @$$hole
Yeah...the majority of first page maps are not high quality, but what does that have to do with anything?. The first page maps are pretty terrible, but then again, 90% of maps in the entire list are. Go to lower pages, and it usually gets pretty worse. The odd good map may get lost in there, but as I mentioned before, the popularity system is only partially to blame.
You need to understand that while the Warcraft 3 system has a few advantages to it. It also has many flaws. Making that same system for Starcraft 2 is just not applicable or entirely advisable for what they are trying to accomplish with B.net 2.
Your thinking is too narrow honestly. You aren`t seeing the bigger picture at all. Your whole point of view is centered on how it affects/revolves around YOU, a single mapper.
You should expand your thinking and see it from Blizzard`s perspective. Im not a fan boy at all. Believe what you want. I, however, understand the reasoning for a lot of the design behind B.net 2. But if you honestly think Blizzard is trying to screw its customers/mapping community on purpose, and you are too impatient for patches that will see the implementation of chat channels and the like, then your thoughts/attitude is askew and you should probably just quit mapping then.
Thank you for the wonderful contribution to this thread. Come back when you have a reason why anyone should give a damn what you think.
You were the one who said one of the reasons for the scene's decline was that people's expectations were higher. You also said that the first page maps are there because they pass this "threshold" you imagined, and that the rest failed to do so. I'm just pointing out that this point of view is a complete fabrication. Do you have any sort of logic behind it?
My point of view is too narrow? I'm not seeing the bigger picture? No, my point of view is centered around that of a mapper. Notice how I removed the individual part from that. You think I'm wrong? Why don't you go ask the legions of mappers who have already quit. Oh wait, you can't because they are already fucking gone. Wake up and smell the roses, this scene had so much potential and now it is just pathetic.
When did I say Blizzard did this on purpose? Stop making shit up. I'm just saying they fucked up and are too invested in the current setup to do what needs to be done. I'm impatient because I'd be waiting for things that should have been there from day one. My view isn't skewed, yours is. I've already quit mapping, have fun lapping it up from Blizzard for the next few years.
Good news OP!
my exams are finally over, so i should be more active in the forums now.
maybe alot of the other people that were here were having exams as well? it would explain their absence.
it thats the case, more people should be coming back soon =) coz exams are finally OVER! wooooooT
I personally havent been on in months purely because of exams, but now that my time has freed up I'm going to finally finish my map. As to lack of projects, perhaps people are similiar to me and 'are' working on them but just ninja hush-hush until they complete.
So sick of these thread lately, I think I need to tag all of them with [Pop Sys] in the title so people can avoid them when reading the forums.
(And yes it is pop sys, exactly like you pronounced)
I see.
Starcraft 2 isn't the only game people are playing...
There are just too many games for anyone to enjoy. I am sure some people that have Starcraft 2 have other games they would like to play like that shooting black op game.
And there were other games that people played during wc3.
What's your point?
There werent that many compared to now. The 3 year hype is over and now people are moving on. Some projects have stopped (like mine). Others just simply stopped map making to enjoy their time playing the game. Others have purchased the game but are now playing other games.
Before you start a flame war with me Eiviyn let me just say I am on the right page as you. We and many others have noticed the drop of activity.
I am merely shedding light to the subject of your question, "Where did everyone go?"
My post wasn't meant to be abrasive. I thought about re-phrasing it but I couldn't think of anything to rephrase it to.
What I'm saying is that there are only a handful of major titles released in the past few months and none were really RTS games. Sure, I imagine some people quit SC2 to go play Black Ops, but by comparison WC3 survived through the release of WoW, it's arguable spiritual successor. It begs the question of why would SC2 get hit so hard by games not even of the same genre when WC3 basically survived it's own successor?
Forums sucks, popularity sucks, community sucks.
I mean, I see tons of team requests in team recruitment forum, but I dont see much people applying. Everyone have their own ideas that they are unable to complete.
And still I dont see almost single good map on bnet. Some have epic systems(made by good galaxy coders) but are plain boring...
Best maps are STILL, overrun and retribution TD. That co-op rpg, Agents something else is also really good map. But its too dark on some areas, sometimes a bit slow, and balance between hard and easy changes too fast.
Ragnor Party is also not bad map.
Generally, seen few good maps but I can say that 95% of customs are bullshit.
SC2 has good multiplayer, excluding custom maps. But bnet's lack of features isnt really helping....
I play Sc2 like 2 hours a week probbly. Sometimes none. I play something around 4 hours a week MWLL(Crysis mod). That's it.
Its sad how games are shit today coz of marketing.
In my history games that I played constantly were:
...
MK3
Half Life and HL Deathmatch
Diablo 1
SC
Counter Strike
Warcraft 3 and WC3 modding
Diablo 2
Rainbow Six Vegas 2
Mechwarrior 4 MekTek Street Fighter 4 (PC); until I broke 2 gamepads..
MWLL
I dont know If I forgot to add few.
Looking forward to new Mortal Combat, Little Big Planet 2, and Donkey Kong. Where I might buy Wii and PS3.
There is a lot of whining and doomsaying in the thread, some of you really need to just chill out and get some perspective. First up, if you're getting into modding purely for popularity...you're doing it for the wrong reasons. In my opinion, you should mod because you enjoy the process of modding itself.
A few years ago I was lucky enough to be invited to a community event in LA with the Command and Conquer 3 dev's. At dinner one night I was talking to the team lead and some of the designers, and it was unanimous that the first RTS to have modding anywhere near the scope of Quake 3 would be awesome and game-changing. At the time it was a nice blue sky idea that no one seriously think would ever happen (let alone one that would happen with a built-in steam-like system).
That game is Starcraft 2, and most (if not all) the complaints I've seen are due to issues that Blizzard has said they'll be fixing (or releasing, in the case of art export tools). The popularity system ya, is annoying and certainly has put some people off of modding...but they'll come back when its fixed. Its also pretty common to see a drop off of modders after the initial "oh this is new and shiny, lets tinker with it" phase. It is extremely hard, and time consuming to make and release a mod of any substantial scope...so it will take time to see big mods pop up. I'll go as far to say that we probably won't see a ton of activity in SC2 modding until it gets its first hugely popular mod (its Counterstrike, its Dota, etc.).
Bringing comparison's back to C&C3, right now I'm wrapping up my mod just so we can focus on our SC2 project 100%. After tinkering with SC2 modding, its really hard to even go back to C&C3. Very little actual dev support, a small fraction of the moddability and depth SC2 has, much smaller userbase (with it being likely that 99% of those who bought CNC3 didn't even know mods exist for it), no potential of having any sort of premium marketplace...oh and a tiny, minor issue that in order to even test the mod out, we have to spend 20-30minutes to compile it first. Even with all those annoyances, we've still spent years working on a mod...why? because we love it.
So "what's your point?" has become a flame? Am I missing something or is this just plain pathetic? Eiviyn, why did you think about rephrasing it? I hope that claim was just an attempt to quiet down QueenGambit (if so, I applaud your political skills).
Way to take a black and white view of modding. You're definitely in the minority. No one is going to disagree with the notion that you should enjoy modding to be doing it. But, this idea that the fun of the process is the only viable reason is simplistic and naive. People normally like their work to be viewed and admired, that's just human nature. How many artists do you know who paint with the intention of being the only viewer? Don't forget about money as it can be made with modding. Also, part of the enjoyment comes from playing the end result yourself. Thus, the enjoyment of modding is a combination of factors.
Your prediction for the scene is wishful thinking. What makes you think that a fix is coming anytime soon? Why are you banking on people returning if/when it is fixed? A lot can happen between now and then (if then comes).
While I agree that the "shiny phase" is partially to blame for the decline in the scene, it should be noted that this effect was amplified by the various BNET problems. This "it takes time" argument is quite flawed. The game has been out for several months, even longer if you include beta. No one is asking for a total conversion or a fully developed DotA at this moment. But, we definitely should be seeing more than we are now. Notice how our beloved Nexus Wars is actually an inferior Footman Frenzy for example...
Normally people don't stalk forums. So in other words a lot of people will visit and then leave after checking some things out. Also the delay for movement and shooting which a lot of people bought sc2 for has made a lot quit for now. And blah blah blah, tons of other stuff I could get into.