You see nothing wrong with judging people based on the color of skin rather than on the merit of their character?
I apologize, in that context you're right, no it's not racist. Russell Williams could also be considered an animal and not because of the color of his skin. But I would say that ok, fine, if he's an animal, than so were the soldiers who were there to kill him. The one who shot him twice in the back, is most definitely an animal.
War is animalistic, and to quote Robert Fisk, it represents a total failure in the human spirit. I do know that nearly every form of life on the planet wars with each other. But with everything else we're capable of, you think it's not in our power to prevent wars? It absolutely is, there's just much more to gain in terms of resources, money in general, etc etc... it's individualist and selfish. And then the politicians invoke national pride, or equate Arabs with animals subliminally in their newscasts and advertisements to illicit an "us vs. them" mentality... who gains from war? I assume you're not an uppercrust type, Soul... do you get billion dollar weapons contracts? Do you see any of the profits from war? Do you get cheap labor for your company? No. If you're anything like me, which you probably have more in common with... we die in wars, people like us. And we kill other poor people, just like us. Farmers in Afghanistan or students-turn-jihadists in Iraq. It's bullshit.
I agree with you about the apathy of most North Americans (Westerners in general), they don't care for the most part. And that's part of why I think radical Muslims or whoever else hate us. Because all they see are their people dying in Palestine, in Iraq, Afghanistan, and they watch news broadcasts of us enjoying Starbucks on the corner, or our general level of affluence, without a care in the world. It must be frustrating.
I have sympathy for him because he's about a year and 10 days younger than me. If you followed the story in total, both sides of the account, this kid has been tortured to illicit confessions, he was shot twice, held without charge in Gitmo for 8 years, denied basic rights that prisoners in every other US prison receive and there's evidence that he's not even guilty!! Since my 15th birthday I learned to drive, completed two different post-secondary degrees, I bought a car and a house, I have a girlfriend, I traveled half the world... and in all that time, he's been on lockdown. For something he may not have done.
killing an ant IMO is the equivelient of a person.....
Living being = Living being....
You seem to simpithize for the Muslims quite a bit.... thier own governments treat thier people worse then we treat them in Gitmo though....
I am sympathetic. Thats why I think they shoulda put him down immediatly rather then detaining him. Personally Id rather be shot on sight then imprisoned endlessly. Eh this is why you dont go to third world countries to wage jihad.
I suggest you look into how those countries treat the poor and oppressed in thier own countries before focusing in on how we detain prisoners of war. It just might open your eyes about how terrible this world we live in really is.
That's very Buddhist of you. But it's a bit hypocritical to say that you believe an ant is the same as a human and then argue that it's more humane to put him down immediately. Why does he have to be put down? First of all, he won't escape this without doing time, whether I agree or disagree. So let's be pragmatic, he's going to serve more time regardless, why not educate him while imprisoned? Give him access to a library? What harm could be done? You might say it will radicalize him more, but he'll eventually face a parole board and that's what they'll determine. If he's ready to reenter society or not.
I feel sympathy for Muslims at this time because their culture has been demonized since 9/11. The fear is ruining peoples morals... a billion and a half Muslims in the world can't all be bad people. I also feel a great deal of sympathy for people living in "extreme" Islamic republics. The regimes are often very harsh. Why shouldn't I feel sympathetic to that? They are not democratically elected, this is surely not what the people want, and any resistance is often culled by stonings, hangings, beheadings, etc. What you're implying is that they should be somehow grateful to be detained in Gitmo. If a life, is a life, is a life, as you say... then shouldn't we all be enjoying the same rights and freedoms, even when we've committed a crime? Obviously under the rule of law you forfeit your freedom if you commit a crime, but not your humanity. Criminals are still people, and our governments need to put far more emphasis on rehab... this is obvious if you look at the recidivism rates in both countries (Canada and America). Unfortunately there's a lot of money to be made in prisons... cheap labor.
Also keep in mind that al Qaeda and the Taliban are ideologically quite different. There were no suicide bombers in Afghanistan before al Qaeda. The Taliban had no goals for world domination or pan-Islamicism as al Qaeda does. They wanted to run their country (into the ground), but that's it.
You're still thinking that Omar Khadr went with his family as a 15 year old of his own volition, with the intent to wage jihad. Were you ever 15?? Did you ever go somewhere you didn't want to because of your parents? Do you understand the psychology of child soldiers at all? This case can't be treated as black and white even if he's guilty because of his age. That has to be considered! He was born and raised in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. At 15 years old, that makes him a CHILD under Canadian law. Do you live in a Western country? Do you know what 15 year olds are like? How impressionable they are, how dumb they seem, etc etc?
EDIT: Anyway, I'm out for now. I don't want to "force" you to see my point of view. Consider my side of the argument, maybe read both sides of the case, read articles about the possibility of him not being guilty, if you are interested. PM me if you are I'll hook you up with links lol
Yah, he had all the usual things an enemy combatant has done to them when they are captured in wartime. He should have thought about that before he was born into an heavily Al-Queda influenced family and dragged off to fight against the imperialist forces of the west in the Jihad by his terrorist sympathizing father. He should have seen what happened to his older brother who also went to fight the western invaders and decided to put down his weapons and return to his comfy life in Canada.
Oh wait, he couldn't because that's not what he was raised to do or will ever be convinced is a better option. There in lies a problem; we have systems for career criminals and hospital networks for mentally distraught people but we have absolutely no system in place to handle people who were born to become a zealot of a movement who's entire agenda is to cause as much damage to western culture as possible. So until we (the people of western culture he wants to destroy) do have plans for threats to our safety like him: He stays where he is. He's a casualty of this Jihad for sure, but don't let the very people who damned this boy to this fate use him to create even more like him.
I am a racist and I see nothing wrong with it. ..... But its not really a racist to call him an animal.... his actions (throwing a grenade) are animalistic. War is animalistic ( did you know just about all forms of life on this planet wage some sort of war).
Quite on the contrary. War is a very humane thing. I only know of two life forms on this planet who are capable of actively waging war - humans and great apes.
Other animals might fight in order not to get killed and eaten, or they fight for a higher social position, for femals or territory. But none of them are capable of fighting a coordinated war against another group.
Not that this changes much, just thought I should throw it in here.
I think we all would have done what he did if we were in his shoes.
And I'm pretty sure that, with proper education, this kid would've said the same thing like you did.
We're all the product of our education, experience and mental capabilities.
Being the nihilist I am I gotta go with what Mozared said.
How do you want to correct such a "malprogrammed" person? I think the change of success is very low, unless you're forcefully brainwashing them.
I don't know the kid personally. I can't judge whether there's even any chance of him being reformed. Maybe a psychologist could.
Me personally: I think he's a lost cause and as such either life imprisonment or lethal injection if its proved he did kill someone with a grenade. As much as think psychologists can be some pretty clever people too, there is no getting around 15 years of straight brain washing by such a militant single-minded cult as Al-Queda.
I have to ask Mozared, are you basing this on any kind of psychiatric experience? Cause you seem to be making these assumptions like you know what the outcome would be. How can you know what chance this kid has at a different life? How could you guess the "percentage" of success? How can you possibly know? You're only guessing.
I'm basing it on what I know. Going from the number of actually intelligent people on this planet that make a real difference, the chance simply is small he'll ever be part of that group. Also, there's the fact that he alledgedly threw that granade. That argument isn't waterproof, but there's some stuff to say that at least indicates that being so gullible, even at such a young age, doesn't point towards a genius. Long story short, IQ is a bad measurement of intelligence, but as the only quantification of it we have, I'm using that and known facts about its spread among the world to base my judgement. That, and what I know of his actions.
Also, SoulCarveRR, your argument and points are valid, but you might be taking the curve rather shortly. "their own governments" would be the clearest indication of this. You can't just go and generalize all muslim worlds and countries. Even if you want to bring up the argument that most believers haven't thought their belief through and are incredibly backwards about it (even though Landover Baptist is satire, people like that really exist), you can't factor in the fact that there's smarter (possibly non-religious) people bound to be around there, surpressed by their system.
So you think its perfectly fine to beat women for thier disobediance?
And hang people for being gay.
But you have an issue with them being beat occasionally for not co-operationg with thier prison guards?
Oh I never lumped anybody in as a group. The one guy called me a racist. I completely stand with the people who are forced into thier rigid moral system. But as you said there is no system for zealots of a religion to be dealt with.
And yes since we detained him he should be put on trial. But you must remember we are a nation of laws. And he does not posses the rights of an american citizen.
All I can say is that I approve of Canada not wanting him transferred back here. Irregardless of whether he can determine right from wrong, he should know that attacking your own countries troops and allies is tantamount to a renunciation of citizenship and all it's protections.
PS: S3rius, ants wage war too. They use formations, tactics, recon, hit and run. They're pretty damn good at it.
See but you're looking at this on too big a scale. I'm not expecting that if Omar ever gets out of jail he'll be speaking at international conferences with speaker fees higher than your annual income... I'm saying it's possible that he can be reformed, maybe write a book about his imprisonment, and reach other young Muslims out there who may have grown up in a similar situation and the dangers of Jihadist ideology, etc etc. That isn't far fetched... there are countless examples of this kind of reform. And intelligence is not necessarily a measurement for what kind of impact you're able to make. As long as someone can identify with you or empathize with your situation (as we have clearly all been somewhat affected by his story), you have garnered influence.
And you can't judge him like that - "it doesn't point to him being a genius." Did you grow up in a strict Muslim family, from a country like Pakistan? Do you have any idea what it's like? Probably not. It has nothing to do with his level of intelligence, as you've said IQ tests are not necessarily an accurate measure, for example: you may be able to score higher on standardized tests in terms of math or competency in the English language, but I would bet money that he could school you in world geography, politics and the legal system. So who's smarter?
I think what s3rious was saying was that animals don't wage war the way humans wage war. And he's right. I understand what you were saying, animals fight all the time. But they don't wage war like we do. Most animals don't fight for resources, or for nationalism, or because of race/color/creed. And they are certainly much more primitive about it.
And I don't think Mozared is saying that he agrees with beating women or hanging gays, just that you can't tar everyone with the same brush. You can't judge citizens by their country's leadership. In many cases of Islamic republics, as I said, they were not democratically elected. And even in the ones that were revolutions or seemed to be populist movements, you have to consider them in their historical context. For example, the Iranian revolution that overthrew the Shah was largely a rejection of him representing Western interests (he was viewed as a US puppet)... so what seemed like a good idea at the time, evolved into a total rejection of Western values and the xenophobia of Shariah law. Similar situation with Afghanistan and the Taliban. They came about as a rejection of Communist leadership after the Russians were ousted by the mujahideen. The Taliban were originally well supported because they brought order and relative peace to a country that had known war for over a decade at this point... and then they evolved into a repressive kind of theocracy which got intertwined with al Qaeda and eventually (after the US-led invasion) the local warlords and druglords who were trying to protect their opium fields.
The case frustrates me because there's a ridiculous double-standard that isn't really registering. When they kill our soldiers, they're monsters and fanatics and terrorists. If our soldiers kill their combatants, or even their civilians, no one cares, or better yet, we applaud them for doing so... and they're lauded as heroes when they come home. Except all the soldiers come home with is nightmares. It's fucked.
Shouldn't the value of a life be the same no matter where you're from?
Shouldn't the value of a life be the same no matter where you're from?
It was, until the other guy kills a few thousand people first by plowing some planes into some buildings. Now all bets are off and its war, us vs them. Us being the world, them being assholes that plow planes into buildings to 'prove a point'. These ones just happen to be Muslims calling themselves Al-Queda. Man unfortunately you seem to be just trying to push the bleeding heart approach and conveniently forgetting why this whole mess started in the first place. I bet if you lost someone you knew to a terrorist attack you wouldn't be so gung ho on the 'save the turrirst!'. This is why the people who kill assholes who plow planes into buildings are called heros, and assholes who plow planes into buildings are called assholes who plow planes into buildings.
This kid was raised by assholes who plow planes into buildings to plow planes into buildings and there is little chance anyone will be able to convince him that's not the best thing to spend time trying to do. So sucks to be him, the end.
ED: I also formally request that any reference in future posts in this thread to 'terrorist' be replaced with 'asshole who plows planes into buildings', just to remind the person who the hell they're actually defending and/or condemning.
It was, until the other guy kills a few thousand people first by plowing some planes into some buildings. Now all bets are off and its war, us vs them. Us being the world, them being assholes that plow planes into buildings to 'prove a point'. These ones just happen to be Muslims calling themselves Al-Queda.
First of all, not to sound like a conspiration theorist, but I'm not sure if one should simply believe the official version of 9/11. Things went pretty strange back then.
Also, I wouldn't exactly say that they started. Lemme qoute something:
Quote:
The origins of al-Qaeda as a network inspiring terrorism around the world and training operatives can be traced to the Soviet war in Afghanistan. The United States viewed the conflict in Afghanistan, with the Afghan Marxists and allied Soviet troops on one side and the native Afghan mujahideen radical Islamic militants on the other, as a blatant case of Soviet expansionism and aggression. The U.S. channelled funds through Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency to the Afghan mujahideen fighting the Soviet occupation in a CIA program called Operation Cyclone.
...
Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency program to arm, train, and finance the Afghan mujahideen during the Soviet war in Afghanistan, 1979 to 1989. The program leaned heavily towards supporting militant Islamic groups that were favored by neighboring Pakistan, rather than other, less ideological Afghan resistance groups that had also been fighting the Marxist-oriented Democratic Republic of Afghanistan regime since before the Soviet intervention.
...
Maktab al-Khidamat (a muslim organization) was established by Abdullah Azzam and Bin Laden in Peshawar, Pakistan, in 1984. From 1986 it began to set up a network of recruiting offices in the United States.
...
U.S. government financial support for the Afghan Islamic militants was substantial. Aid to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, an Afghan Mujahideen leader and founder and leader of the Hezb-e Islami radical Islamic militant faction, alone amounted "by the most conservative estimates" to $600 million. ... There is evidence that the CIA supported Hekmatyar's drug trade activities by giving him immunity for his opium trafficking that financed operation of his militant faction.
...
The Soviet Union finally withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989. With mujahideen leaders unable to agree on a structure for governance, chaos ensued, with constantly reorganizing alliances fighting for control of ill-defined territories, leaving the country devastated.
...
In November 1989, Ali Mohamed, a former special forces Sergeant stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, left military service and moved to Santa Clara, California. He traveled to Afghanistan and Pakistan and became "deeply involved with bin Laden's plans." (He has been training Mujahideen as a CIA agent before.)
...
The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in August 1990 had put the kingdom and its ruling House of Saud at risk. Bin Laden offered the services of his mujahideen to King Fahd to protect Saudi Arabia from the Iraqi army. The Saudi monarch refused bin Laden's offer, opting instead to allow U.S. and allied forces to deploy troops into Saudi territory.
The deployment angered Bin Laden, as he believed the presence of foreign troops in the "land of the two mosques" (Mecca and Medina) profaned sacred soil. After speaking publicly against the Saudi government for harboring American troops, he was banished and forced to live in exile in Sudan.
But in short:
A) The US specifically supported and trained radical para-militaries to fight Russia.
B) The country and their zealous defenders were practically left alone after the war ended, leading to chaos.
C) They continue doing what they were trained for, but this time against US troops.
Aye, I'm with you on how the CIA basically created these organizations in the first place during the cold war, that documentary called 'Rambo III' even glorified this whole process and then later "Charley Wilson's war" gave a 'better' picture of what went on (I kid). Unfortunately it doesn't absolve the reasoning of the current situation where Al-Queda decided that unlike the first time the US intervened and helped them they felt western influence shouldn't be involved and fought that with every measure they could. Regardless of how Al-Queda was born, its decided to wage war against the western world, and logically the western world has decided do so the same. Beyond all of that still, I really can't gather much sympathy for an organization that pushes for acts of violence against civilians and then hides among other non-combatants to shield them from retaliation. Similarly I cannot sympathize for someone who is part of those groups who employ those tactics.
That's true, and most of them deserve to be blow to bits (then again, if I could decide there'd be a damn lot of people getting blown to bits).
I just wanted to stress that it isn't a battle between good and bad. More like a battle between bad and very bad.
The Khadr guy threw a grenade at a medic?
Sucks for him, and for the medic.
The US military mistakenly took reporters for armed terrorists and gunned them down?
Sucks for the reporters - but 'our' guys will be more careful next time, no problem.
Hell, for what I know this medic could have been armed (which isn't unusual) and been firing at him. I don't know if that was the case, but it could. It doesn't say anywhere. However, it said that several other soldiers were injured. So chances are that he didn't specifically aimed for the medic, but rather for the entire group of his enemies.
What's the difference in killing an armed medic or an armed soldier in combat? What's the difference between killing a resistance fighter or a trained proffessional soldier who both fight for their respective country? What's the difference between hurling a grenade at someone or launching a missile at someone?
There really isn't any.
If the Al-Qaida caught some of 'our' soldiers they could easily charge them with the same accusations as we did with Khadr.
They wouldn't even have to follow laws, because apparently the US government doesn't do that neither.
That doesn't mean that he is doing the right thing, or that he wouldn't kill civilians to achieve his goal (I don't know him, I don't know if he would or already did) and that also doesn't mean that he's to be release to give him a chance to show if he would, but it also is one big hell of a hypocrisy.
Cmon Bump, you know this didn't start on 9/11. History didn't start on 9/11. Yes, al Qaeda flew planes into buildings... but you don't think America has ever sponsored terrorism? Psssh.
Chile early 1970s? Guatemala in the early 1900s? Nicaragua early 1980s? Iran during its revolution in the late 1970s? Iran again during the Iran-Iraq war mid-1980s? The Israeli occupation of Palestine since conception? Vietnam? North Korea? Laos (the most heavily mined country in the world... part of that Cold War mentality)? Panama when they went after Noriega (they killed more civilians than military)? Most recently, the invasion of Iraq which was in violation of International Law (nearly 100,000 civilians killed by most accounts)? How many Ground Zeros has the US left in other countries?
And this is direct intervention with visible loss of life. This doesn't even consider their neo-liberal economic policies which enslave nations every day. I agree, it's a horrible, horrible thing that 3000 people were killed. And I will continue to condemn acts of blatant terrorism like suicide bombings or the targeting of civilians, that's outrageous... and its certainly not the way you win a war. However, America is by no means innocent in all this. They fucked Afghanistan in the first place when they gave the Russians their Vietnam.
I have family in Afghanistan right now, and I say the same things to them. I have a friend who came home because he was hit by a remote-detonated IED and a piece of shrapnel went through his leg. I don't feel any different. The mission in Afghanistan should have been over in 2003 at the Battle of Tora Bora. Now it's a clusterfuck and we're going to pull out and still say it was a success somehow (and the good people of Afghanistan should thank us for being so generous!) because that's what our governments do.
Who said anything about America's foreign policy being hunky-dory, and what does that have to do with this kid being captured while attacking coalition troops in a fire fight with people who plow planes into buildings? Stop changing the subject. He's part of people who plow planes into buildings and he shows no remorse for being part of people who plow planes into buildings. Screw him, leave him to rot.
@QMJ3: Go
It was, until the other guy kills a few thousand people first by plowing some planes into some buildings. Now all bets are off and its war, us vs them. Us being the world, them being assholes that plow planes into buildings to 'prove a point'.
My point was that you don't seem to see the double-standard which takes place that when America does it to other countries, again... how many Ground Zeroes have they inflicted upon other countries, nobody says shit. Just like when our soldiers accidentally kill their civilians its an "oops" moment, but if we catch one of their "combatants" allegedly attacking our soldiers, it's murder. Horseshit.
He's not part of people who do that, and I'm not actually sure his father ever had ties to al Qaeda either. His only connection would have been the fact that he was in Afghanistan. They're not all al Qaeda, you do understand that right? And it's still only alleged that Omar even threw the grenade!! There is evidence that he didn't! Doesn't that mean anything to you? If it doesn't, I have to pull the prejudice card.
The US does all kinds of shady crap, so what its irrelevant. Al Queda attacked the US so now a coalition of countries are at war with Al Queda, this kid is Al Queda and so as someone who's interests are better matched by those of the coalition then this guy and his crowd, its in my best interest that he rot. Yes its a shame when a civilian gets caught in the line of fire, but if people who plow planes into buildings had any regard for those same civilians they would make some efforts to avoid that instead of taking advantage of their presence and the coalition's goals to not kill civilians. So yah with a civ dies its a shame, when a person who plows planes into buildings dies its a good thing for the rest of us, and when someone who's job is to kill people who plow planes into buildings its a shame as well. This is of course from the point of view of someone who people who plow planes into buildings want to hurt.
He's not part of people who do that, and I'm not actually sure his father ever had ties to al Qaeda either. His only connection would have been the fact that he was in Afghanistan. They're not all al Qaeda, you do understand that right? And it's still only alleged that Omar even threw the grenade!! There is evidence that he didn't! Doesn't that mean anything to you? If it doesn't, I have to pull the prejudice card.
Did you even read the first article you linked? Go back and read it. Btw damn straight I'm prejudice against people who make threats on my life just for living in a western country, fuck them.
Canadian intelligence authorities had initially determined in a post-interrogation report that Khadr had little knowledge of his father's alleged activities, since "he was out playing or simply not interested".This was contradicted by the stipulation of facts document signed by Khadr as part of his plea-agreement on October 26, 2010, which said that Khadr had "extensive firsthand knowledge" of his father's supportive role in Al Qaeda operations.
That's what you mean right? So, CSIS interviews him in 2003, he says he has no knowledge of his father's alleged crimes. Then after 7 years in a prison cell they interview him again and he changes his story. Hmm... Gimme a break. If you believe this kid wasn't under duress or given some sort of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario you're daft.
Also worth noting:
Quote:
Khadr pled guilty to the murder of Christopher Speer, and on October 29, 2010, despite the prosecution psychiatrist testifying that he showed no signs of remorse, Khadr apologized to the widow of Speer for the pain he had caused her. Khadr also said his eight years in prison had taught him "the beauty of life".
I'd like to point out as this will no doubt be mentioned - pleading guilty to get a reduced sentence is not the same as actually being guilty.
It's this "us vs. them" mentality that brings this shit on in the first place. On both sides. Where ever there is division, there's conflict.
@SouLCarveRR: Go
You see nothing wrong with judging people based on the color of skin rather than on the merit of their character?
I apologize, in that context you're right, no it's not racist. Russell Williams could also be considered an animal and not because of the color of his skin. But I would say that ok, fine, if he's an animal, than so were the soldiers who were there to kill him. The one who shot him twice in the back, is most definitely an animal.
War is animalistic, and to quote Robert Fisk, it represents a total failure in the human spirit. I do know that nearly every form of life on the planet wars with each other. But with everything else we're capable of, you think it's not in our power to prevent wars? It absolutely is, there's just much more to gain in terms of resources, money in general, etc etc... it's individualist and selfish. And then the politicians invoke national pride, or equate Arabs with animals subliminally in their newscasts and advertisements to illicit an "us vs. them" mentality... who gains from war? I assume you're not an uppercrust type, Soul... do you get billion dollar weapons contracts? Do you see any of the profits from war? Do you get cheap labor for your company? No. If you're anything like me, which you probably have more in common with... we die in wars, people like us. And we kill other poor people, just like us. Farmers in Afghanistan or students-turn-jihadists in Iraq. It's bullshit.
I agree with you about the apathy of most North Americans (Westerners in general), they don't care for the most part. And that's part of why I think radical Muslims or whoever else hate us. Because all they see are their people dying in Palestine, in Iraq, Afghanistan, and they watch news broadcasts of us enjoying Starbucks on the corner, or our general level of affluence, without a care in the world. It must be frustrating.
I have sympathy for him because he's about a year and 10 days younger than me. If you followed the story in total, both sides of the account, this kid has been tortured to illicit confessions, he was shot twice, held without charge in Gitmo for 8 years, denied basic rights that prisoners in every other US prison receive and there's evidence that he's not even guilty!! Since my 15th birthday I learned to drive, completed two different post-secondary degrees, I bought a car and a house, I have a girlfriend, I traveled half the world... and in all that time, he's been on lockdown. For something he may not have done.
How can you not feel sympathy?
All humans are animals IMO.....
killing an ant IMO is the equivelient of a person.....
Living being = Living being....
You seem to simpithize for the Muslims quite a bit.... thier own governments treat thier people worse then we treat them in Gitmo though....
I am sympathetic. Thats why I think they shoulda put him down immediatly rather then detaining him. Personally Id rather be shot on sight then imprisoned endlessly. Eh this is why you dont go to third world countries to wage jihad.
I suggest you look into how those countries treat the poor and oppressed in thier own countries before focusing in on how we detain prisoners of war. It just might open your eyes about how terrible this world we live in really is.
@SouLCarveRR: Go
That's very Buddhist of you. But it's a bit hypocritical to say that you believe an ant is the same as a human and then argue that it's more humane to put him down immediately. Why does he have to be put down? First of all, he won't escape this without doing time, whether I agree or disagree. So let's be pragmatic, he's going to serve more time regardless, why not educate him while imprisoned? Give him access to a library? What harm could be done? You might say it will radicalize him more, but he'll eventually face a parole board and that's what they'll determine. If he's ready to reenter society or not.
I feel sympathy for Muslims at this time because their culture has been demonized since 9/11. The fear is ruining peoples morals... a billion and a half Muslims in the world can't all be bad people. I also feel a great deal of sympathy for people living in "extreme" Islamic republics. The regimes are often very harsh. Why shouldn't I feel sympathetic to that? They are not democratically elected, this is surely not what the people want, and any resistance is often culled by stonings, hangings, beheadings, etc. What you're implying is that they should be somehow grateful to be detained in Gitmo. If a life, is a life, is a life, as you say... then shouldn't we all be enjoying the same rights and freedoms, even when we've committed a crime? Obviously under the rule of law you forfeit your freedom if you commit a crime, but not your humanity. Criminals are still people, and our governments need to put far more emphasis on rehab... this is obvious if you look at the recidivism rates in both countries (Canada and America). Unfortunately there's a lot of money to be made in prisons... cheap labor.
Also keep in mind that al Qaeda and the Taliban are ideologically quite different. There were no suicide bombers in Afghanistan before al Qaeda. The Taliban had no goals for world domination or pan-Islamicism as al Qaeda does. They wanted to run their country (into the ground), but that's it.
You're still thinking that Omar Khadr went with his family as a 15 year old of his own volition, with the intent to wage jihad. Were you ever 15?? Did you ever go somewhere you didn't want to because of your parents? Do you understand the psychology of child soldiers at all? This case can't be treated as black and white even if he's guilty because of his age. That has to be considered! He was born and raised in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. At 15 years old, that makes him a CHILD under Canadian law. Do you live in a Western country? Do you know what 15 year olds are like? How impressionable they are, how dumb they seem, etc etc?
EDIT: Anyway, I'm out for now. I don't want to "force" you to see my point of view. Consider my side of the argument, maybe read both sides of the case, read articles about the possibility of him not being guilty, if you are interested. PM me if you are I'll hook you up with links lol
@QMJ3: Go
Yah, he had all the usual things an enemy combatant has done to them when they are captured in wartime. He should have thought about that before he was born into an heavily Al-Queda influenced family and dragged off to fight against the imperialist forces of the west in the Jihad by his terrorist sympathizing father. He should have seen what happened to his older brother who also went to fight the western invaders and decided to put down his weapons and return to his comfy life in Canada.
Oh wait, he couldn't because that's not what he was raised to do or will ever be convinced is a better option. There in lies a problem; we have systems for career criminals and hospital networks for mentally distraught people but we have absolutely no system in place to handle people who were born to become a zealot of a movement who's entire agenda is to cause as much damage to western culture as possible. So until we (the people of western culture he wants to destroy) do have plans for threats to our safety like him: He stays where he is. He's a casualty of this Jihad for sure, but don't let the very people who damned this boy to this fate use him to create even more like him.
Quite on the contrary. War is a very humane thing. I only know of two life forms on this planet who are capable of actively waging war - humans and great apes.
Other animals might fight in order not to get killed and eaten, or they fight for a higher social position, for femals or territory. But none of them are capable of fighting a coordinated war against another group.
Not that this changes much, just thought I should throw it in here.
I think we all would have done what he did if we were in his shoes.
And I'm pretty sure that, with proper education, this kid would've said the same thing like you did.
We're all the product of our education, experience and mental capabilities.
@BumpInTheNight: Go
Being the nihilist I am I gotta go with what Mozared said.
How do you want to correct such a "malprogrammed" person? I think the change of success is very low, unless you're forcefully brainwashing them.
I don't know the kid personally. I can't judge whether there's even any chance of him being reformed. Maybe a psychologist could.
@s3rius: Go
Me personally: I think he's a lost cause and as such either life imprisonment or lethal injection if its proved he did kill someone with a grenade. As much as think psychologists can be some pretty clever people too, there is no getting around 15 years of straight brain washing by such a militant single-minded cult as Al-Queda.
I'm basing it on what I know. Going from the number of actually intelligent people on this planet that make a real difference, the chance simply is small he'll ever be part of that group. Also, there's the fact that he alledgedly threw that granade. That argument isn't waterproof, but there's some stuff to say that at least indicates that being so gullible, even at such a young age, doesn't point towards a genius. Long story short, IQ is a bad measurement of intelligence, but as the only quantification of it we have, I'm using that and known facts about its spread among the world to base my judgement. That, and what I know of his actions.
Also, SoulCarveRR, your argument and points are valid, but you might be taking the curve rather shortly. "their own governments" would be the clearest indication of this. You can't just go and generalize all muslim worlds and countries. Even if you want to bring up the argument that most believers haven't thought their belief through and are incredibly backwards about it (even though Landover Baptist is satire, people like that really exist), you can't factor in the fact that there's smarter (possibly non-religious) people bound to be around there, surpressed by their system.
Actually the animal kingdom wages war against itself 24/7.
Its part of evolution.
@Mozared: Go
So you think its perfectly fine to beat women for thier disobediance?
And hang people for being gay.
But you have an issue with them being beat occasionally for not co-operationg with thier prison guards?
Oh I never lumped anybody in as a group. The one guy called me a racist. I completely stand with the people who are forced into thier rigid moral system. But as you said there is no system for zealots of a religion to be dealt with.
And yes since we detained him he should be put on trial. But you must remember we are a nation of laws. And he does not posses the rights of an american citizen.
All I can say is that I approve of Canada not wanting him transferred back here. Irregardless of whether he can determine right from wrong, he should know that attacking your own countries troops and allies is tantamount to a renunciation of citizenship and all it's protections.
PS: S3rius, ants wage war too. They use formations, tactics, recon, hit and run. They're pretty damn good at it.
@Mozared: Go
See but you're looking at this on too big a scale. I'm not expecting that if Omar ever gets out of jail he'll be speaking at international conferences with speaker fees higher than your annual income... I'm saying it's possible that he can be reformed, maybe write a book about his imprisonment, and reach other young Muslims out there who may have grown up in a similar situation and the dangers of Jihadist ideology, etc etc. That isn't far fetched... there are countless examples of this kind of reform. And intelligence is not necessarily a measurement for what kind of impact you're able to make. As long as someone can identify with you or empathize with your situation (as we have clearly all been somewhat affected by his story), you have garnered influence.
And you can't judge him like that - "it doesn't point to him being a genius." Did you grow up in a strict Muslim family, from a country like Pakistan? Do you have any idea what it's like? Probably not. It has nothing to do with his level of intelligence, as you've said IQ tests are not necessarily an accurate measure, for example: you may be able to score higher on standardized tests in terms of math or competency in the English language, but I would bet money that he could school you in world geography, politics and the legal system. So who's smarter?
@SouLCarveRR: Go
I think what s3rious was saying was that animals don't wage war the way humans wage war. And he's right. I understand what you were saying, animals fight all the time. But they don't wage war like we do. Most animals don't fight for resources, or for nationalism, or because of race/color/creed. And they are certainly much more primitive about it.
And I don't think Mozared is saying that he agrees with beating women or hanging gays, just that you can't tar everyone with the same brush. You can't judge citizens by their country's leadership. In many cases of Islamic republics, as I said, they were not democratically elected. And even in the ones that were revolutions or seemed to be populist movements, you have to consider them in their historical context. For example, the Iranian revolution that overthrew the Shah was largely a rejection of him representing Western interests (he was viewed as a US puppet)... so what seemed like a good idea at the time, evolved into a total rejection of Western values and the xenophobia of Shariah law. Similar situation with Afghanistan and the Taliban. They came about as a rejection of Communist leadership after the Russians were ousted by the mujahideen. The Taliban were originally well supported because they brought order and relative peace to a country that had known war for over a decade at this point... and then they evolved into a repressive kind of theocracy which got intertwined with al Qaeda and eventually (after the US-led invasion) the local warlords and druglords who were trying to protect their opium fields.
The case frustrates me because there's a ridiculous double-standard that isn't really registering. When they kill our soldiers, they're monsters and fanatics and terrorists. If our soldiers kill their combatants, or even their civilians, no one cares, or better yet, we applaud them for doing so... and they're lauded as heroes when they come home. Except all the soldiers come home with is nightmares. It's fucked.
Shouldn't the value of a life be the same no matter where you're from?
It was, until the other guy kills a few thousand people first by plowing some planes into some buildings. Now all bets are off and its war, us vs them. Us being the world, them being assholes that plow planes into buildings to 'prove a point'. These ones just happen to be Muslims calling themselves Al-Queda. Man unfortunately you seem to be just trying to push the bleeding heart approach and conveniently forgetting why this whole mess started in the first place. I bet if you lost someone you knew to a terrorist attack you wouldn't be so gung ho on the 'save the turrirst!'. This is why the people who kill assholes who plow planes into buildings are called heros, and assholes who plow planes into buildings are called assholes who plow planes into buildings.
This kid was raised by assholes who plow planes into buildings to plow planes into buildings and there is little chance anyone will be able to convince him that's not the best thing to spend time trying to do. So sucks to be him, the end.
ED: I also formally request that any reference in future posts in this thread to 'terrorist' be replaced with 'asshole who plows planes into buildings', just to remind the person who the hell they're actually defending and/or condemning.
First of all, not to sound like a conspiration theorist, but I'm not sure if one should simply believe the official version of 9/11. Things went pretty strange back then.
Also, I wouldn't exactly say that they started. Lemme qoute something:
Sorry for the long quote. Comes all from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaida, although I learned it myself from other sources.
But in short:
A) The US specifically supported and trained radical para-militaries to fight Russia.
B) The country and their zealous defenders were practically left alone after the war ended, leading to chaos.
C) They continue doing what they were trained for, but this time against US troops.
Well, you reap what you sow.
@s3rius: Go
Aye, I'm with you on how the CIA basically created these organizations in the first place during the cold war, that documentary called 'Rambo III' even glorified this whole process and then later "Charley Wilson's war" gave a 'better' picture of what went on (I kid). Unfortunately it doesn't absolve the reasoning of the current situation where Al-Queda decided that unlike the first time the US intervened and helped them they felt western influence shouldn't be involved and fought that with every measure they could. Regardless of how Al-Queda was born, its decided to wage war against the western world, and logically the western world has decided do so the same. Beyond all of that still, I really can't gather much sympathy for an organization that pushes for acts of violence against civilians and then hides among other non-combatants to shield them from retaliation. Similarly I cannot sympathize for someone who is part of those groups who employ those tactics.
@BumpInTheNight: Go
That's true, and most of them deserve to be blow to bits (then again, if I could decide there'd be a damn lot of people getting blown to bits).
I just wanted to stress that it isn't a battle between good and bad. More like a battle between bad and very bad.
The Khadr guy threw a grenade at a medic?
Sucks for him, and for the medic.
The US military mistakenly took reporters for armed terrorists and gunned them down?
Sucks for the reporters - but 'our' guys will be more careful next time, no problem.
Hell, for what I know this medic could have been armed (which isn't unusual) and been firing at him. I don't know if that was the case, but it could. It doesn't say anywhere. However, it said that several other soldiers were injured. So chances are that he didn't specifically aimed for the medic, but rather for the entire group of his enemies.
What's the difference in killing an armed medic or an armed soldier in combat? What's the difference between killing a resistance fighter or a trained proffessional soldier who both fight for their respective country? What's the difference between hurling a grenade at someone or launching a missile at someone?
There really isn't any.
If the Al-Qaida caught some of 'our' soldiers they could easily charge them with the same accusations as we did with Khadr.
They wouldn't even have to follow laws, because apparently the US government doesn't do that neither.
That doesn't mean that he is doing the right thing, or that he wouldn't kill civilians to achieve his goal (I don't know him, I don't know if he would or already did) and that also doesn't mean that he's to be release to give him a chance to show if he would, but it also is one big hell of a hypocrisy.
@BumpInTheNight: Go
Cmon Bump, you know this didn't start on 9/11. History didn't start on 9/11. Yes, al Qaeda flew planes into buildings... but you don't think America has ever sponsored terrorism? Psssh.
Chile early 1970s? Guatemala in the early 1900s? Nicaragua early 1980s? Iran during its revolution in the late 1970s? Iran again during the Iran-Iraq war mid-1980s? The Israeli occupation of Palestine since conception? Vietnam? North Korea? Laos (the most heavily mined country in the world... part of that Cold War mentality)? Panama when they went after Noriega (they killed more civilians than military)? Most recently, the invasion of Iraq which was in violation of International Law (nearly 100,000 civilians killed by most accounts)? How many Ground Zeros has the US left in other countries?
And this is direct intervention with visible loss of life. This doesn't even consider their neo-liberal economic policies which enslave nations every day. I agree, it's a horrible, horrible thing that 3000 people were killed. And I will continue to condemn acts of blatant terrorism like suicide bombings or the targeting of civilians, that's outrageous... and its certainly not the way you win a war. However, America is by no means innocent in all this. They fucked Afghanistan in the first place when they gave the Russians their Vietnam.
I have family in Afghanistan right now, and I say the same things to them. I have a friend who came home because he was hit by a remote-detonated IED and a piece of shrapnel went through his leg. I don't feel any different. The mission in Afghanistan should have been over in 2003 at the Battle of Tora Bora. Now it's a clusterfuck and we're going to pull out and still say it was a success somehow (and the good people of Afghanistan should thank us for being so generous!) because that's what our governments do.
@QMJ3: Go
Who said anything about America's foreign policy being hunky-dory, and what does that have to do with this kid being captured while attacking coalition troops in a fire fight with people who plow planes into buildings? Stop changing the subject. He's part of people who plow planes into buildings and he shows no remorse for being part of people who plow planes into buildings. Screw him, leave him to rot.
@BumpInTheNight: Go
I'm not changing the subject:
My point was that you don't seem to see the double-standard which takes place that when America does it to other countries, again... how many Ground Zeroes have they inflicted upon other countries, nobody says shit. Just like when our soldiers accidentally kill their civilians its an "oops" moment, but if we catch one of their "combatants" allegedly attacking our soldiers, it's murder. Horseshit.
He's not part of people who do that, and I'm not actually sure his father ever had ties to al Qaeda either. His only connection would have been the fact that he was in Afghanistan. They're not all al Qaeda, you do understand that right? And it's still only alleged that Omar even threw the grenade!! There is evidence that he didn't! Doesn't that mean anything to you? If it doesn't, I have to pull the prejudice card.
@QMJ3: Go
The US does all kinds of shady crap, so what its irrelevant. Al Queda attacked the US so now a coalition of countries are at war with Al Queda, this kid is Al Queda and so as someone who's interests are better matched by those of the coalition then this guy and his crowd, its in my best interest that he rot. Yes its a shame when a civilian gets caught in the line of fire, but if people who plow planes into buildings had any regard for those same civilians they would make some efforts to avoid that instead of taking advantage of their presence and the coalition's goals to not kill civilians. So yah with a civ dies its a shame, when a person who plows planes into buildings dies its a good thing for the rest of us, and when someone who's job is to kill people who plow planes into buildings its a shame as well. This is of course from the point of view of someone who people who plow planes into buildings want to hurt.
Did you even read the first article you linked? Go back and read it. Btw damn straight I'm prejudice against people who make threats on my life just for living in a western country, fuck them.
@BumpInTheNight: Go
That's what you mean right? So, CSIS interviews him in 2003, he says he has no knowledge of his father's alleged crimes. Then after 7 years in a prison cell they interview him again and he changes his story. Hmm... Gimme a break. If you believe this kid wasn't under duress or given some sort of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario you're daft.
Also worth noting:
I'd like to point out as this will no doubt be mentioned - pleading guilty to get a reduced sentence is not the same as actually being guilty.
It's this "us vs. them" mentality that brings this shit on in the first place. On both sides. Where ever there is division, there's conflict.