In light of the recent asking of why people dislike SotIS, and the interesting revelations and discussions that it provoked, I want to ask a similar question and promote discussion about it. Kalreborn was kind enough to recreate all the great lotr maps we loved so much in sc1 for sc2. These maps, living fossils themselves, come from an sc1 veteran and lover of lotr. However, I feel that lotr doesn't get its worth in merit. Some of the reasons I have explored in others, but i want to hear if there is more to it.
So here goes, why do a vast majority of people dislike, or for that matter, refuse to try lord of the rings games? The games offer a skill cieling comparable to Dota, and anybody who loves grand battles loves lord of the rings. LOTR has a solid core community, which speaks volumes of its depth. Surely more would be interested in...delving deeper per se?
TL;DR
Why do a vast majority of the people on battle net dislike lotr games?
Lotr is fantasy. It simply does not fit in the Science Fiction genre. If it was Warcraft 3 or somethin' it would be a different story.
Everyone claims this, it is one of the most basic and common answers, but this just exemplifies the graphics craze. People really need to chill out and remember that the original blizzard client lotr games were for sc1, all wc3 lotr games pay credence to them. Also, for wc3, keep in mind that the graphics aren't that "lotr" either, they're warcraft graphics, and none of the models fit anyway. Lotr has always been about gameplay, and its fun because of its high skill ceiling.
In addition, the lotr game has a steadfast community with the birth of chat channels, allowing it to thrive since patch 1.2. However, to refuse to play a game because the theme does not "fit" is utterly ridiculous, since the true lotr spirit has always been in SC and never in WC.
However, to refuse to play a game because the theme does not "fit" is utterly ridiculous, since the true lotr spirit has always been in SC and never in WC.
No, it isn't. Theme is an important part of the overall experience and most people just don't feel right controlling a marine called Frodo. Some people can overlook this, and more power to them. But, to say it is wrong to care about such things is ridiculous.
Karawasa is 100% right. The fact that the theme is completely different is the main turn-off for me. I played LOTR maps in Warcraft III (specifically, I played a LOT of Silmarillion), but in SC it just isn't the same.
Karawasa is 100% right. The fact that the theme is completely different is the main turn-off for me. I played LOTR maps in Warcraft III (specifically, I played a LOT of Silmarillion), but in SC it just isn't the same.
Okay, perhaps I am a little hasty to judge, but the ghost named frodo is just as much frodo and just as little frodo as the scaled down villager named frodo. Regardless, I feel that you really should not be playing lotr if you cant overlook theme, as this "theme" is not the main fun of the game.
Now, the lotr community is tight, and we all know each other by name and skill level. But I feel another turn off is the complication. The game is not an easy one to play. No matter how brilliant you are, you'll be confused by lotr on the first run through. Sure...the tips explain everything in detail...but who wants to read tips?
As they say, who reads the manual?
EDIT: Have you given lotr any chances as of yet Mozared or Karawasa? I do not believe the map is published in europe so you may be exempt Moz (Sorry :P), but Karawasa, have you bothered to try the map at all? A lot say they hate the theme, and then forget to try the map because they're busy hating the theme.
EDIT: Have you given lotr any chances as of yet Mozared or Karawasa? I do not believe the map is published in europe so you may be exempt Moz (Sorry :P), but Karawasa, have you bothered to try the map at all? A lot say they hate the theme, and then forget to try the map because they're busy hating the theme.
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by 'lotr' in this instance as I've seen many LOTR-themed maps - I have tried all of them, though. Some were crappy, some were well balanced and executed, but the theme felt horribly off in all of them.
That would work fine. Most of these simple 'alliances, heroes & units' maps can be really great if executed well. As mentioned, I was a huge fan of the Silmarillion map in Warcraft III (and actually a Tolkien fan in general). Assuming the balance and polish is good, theme really is my only problem with the genre.
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by 'lotr' in this instance as I've seen many LOTR-themed maps - I have tried all of them, though. Some were crappy, some were well balanced and executed, but the theme felt horribly off in all of them.
That would work fine. Most of these simple 'alliances, heroes units' maps can be really great if executed well. As mentioned, I was a huge fan of the Silmarillion map in Warcraft III (and actually a Tolkien fan in general). Assuming the balance and polish is good, theme really is my only problem with the genre.
Ya, its pretty much everyone's, I think its the biggest problem with lotr maps. At least, however, some can ignore, or imagine it is lotr. And I feel yet another problem is the laggy environ, and as TheZizz once said, he gets 2 FPS in lotr games. I don't know how effective Kal's initial triggering was in most of them, but to say the least, there are WAY more triggers than an SC2 map should ever need, let alone have, perhaps because of the spawns. The best way would probably be to combine triggers for wotr, pre is fine, trop needs to reduce the global life of cannons and increase global life of units, and I can't say much for eriador or palamani's War in the South map.
If you imported WoW models and used them instead of marines, they would be good. Using marine and thor models may work for Nexus Wars, but when it's based off a fantasy world, it really isn't good.
If it's the gameplay that's important, then create a new theme to fit the existing gameplay. Don't call it LotR. Base it on Firefly or something. Maybe Star Trek.
If it's the gameplay that's important, then create a new theme to fit the existing gameplay.Don't call it LotR.Base it on Firefly or something.Maybe Star Trek.
My thoughts exactly. Surely epic battles are not unique to LotR?
My thoughts exactly. Surely epic battles are not unique to LotR?
Kara, i still doubt you've played it before, although mozared has. You're referencing epic space battles, and saying "come up with a new theme", and trust me some will. To me, it doesn't matter what theme it should be, because the models will always be incorrect. Movies too. I now imagine nazgul as leviathans, and frodo as a ghost. That's ALRIGHT with me. But the extensive lore of the lotr universe makes it a prime target for the not one, but now FIVE maps based off of it, each with its own gameplay, timeline, feel, and units. Its hard to do a star wars map type thing, because the lore is so much less extensive. Anyway, people should NOT be limited by the theme of the game. It limits us so much in our ideas by saying models matter. This early, we should only worry about gameplay, ideas, etc. DO NOT LET THEME OR LACK THEREOF BOG YOU DOWN. The "all important theme" is totally dropped in lotr, which is an amazing game. Karawasa, in fact, totally misses what makes the game fun in his post of "epic space battles". He also hasn't flamed the game in any way yet, so I doubt he's played it.
I've played LotR games in W3 (specifically recalling the hero siege one). They're good, and the main reason why they play so well is because it's both appealing in gameplay and in visual terms. I might not be a great fan of the real LotR series but LotR + W3 just seems like a great fit, since they're both pretty much medieval-ish technology.
For SC2, it just pains me to imagine someone who's supposed to hold a bow and arrow suddenly been given an assault rifle and wearing heavy armor. It's like watching old china movies and calling it Star Trek(Spears and swords instead of phasers and disruptors). It just doesn't work that way. However, I do agree with the fact that if proper models were implemented to give that good ol' LotR feel, then it'd work nicely. Unfortunately, something like that takes far too long.
Vexal pointed out that instead of LotR, we could go for something that suits the high tech-ness that is SC2. Yes, I would think that there are other epic battles out there but the flaw remains in that things like Star Trek and Star Wars aren't exactly as diverse as LotR( Swords & magic. And magic has just too many aspects to it that makes it so unique. Also, the flashy skills :D ). Take Star Wars for example. In the end it'll just be lightsabers, blasters and the force. Note that I'm looking at this from a hero design pov, where it'll be reasonably tough to fish out skills that are somewhat unique to themselves.
A well designed epic battle map for Star Trek would be quite... no, extremely hard(Though if someone manages to get past the hardships below then surely it'll be very good). First of all, Star Trek battles take place in 2 very different settings : Huge fleet ship battles (Giant cubes vs streamlined ships)[Wonder why they're streamlined if there's no friction that causes any air resistance though] and battles within ships themselves/ on planets. Then there needs to be a good balance of the different species(Borg just dominates all eventually unless some random Species 8472 come out and beat em up a little).
@LaertesSC2
Originally, I thought that I couldn't really care about what theme something is on as long as it's good but I realized that I actually did care =/
I think what SC2 really needs is to create its own original stuff and not base it off existing material. An epic battle game only seen in SC2 ( Not involving the 3 races that are available though ). That way, the theme is set and is already available and people will be able to work around that theme to create something awesome.
Indeed, I have never played one. But, you're making me want to try it less and less with every post. So, these games are or are not about the battles themselves? You keep mentioning the lore as if this is an RPG or some sort of campaign with story. Why do you need extensive lore for a giant battle? Clearly, I do not know what makes this type of game appealing. My guess would be the roleplay/imagination aspect of it (like D&D) based on what you've said. In that case, I can't offer much positive as I never liked games like that. I don't play games to use my imagination in order to fill in the blanks, the game is supposed to be the whole package.
By the way, stop saying people shouldn't be limited by the theme of the game. You're clearly in the minority here. Most people DO care about a marine called Frodo and that's perfectly OK.
By the way, stop saying people shouldn't be limited by the theme of the game. You're clearly in the minority here. Most people DO care about a marine called Frodo and that's perfectly OK.
This is true, again. Like Kara said in his first reply, really - a lot of people care a lot for the theme. This isn't something you "can or can not be" limited by. I don't "choose" to be limited by it, I just don't like stuff where the theme doesn't fit. I'm a perfectionist. Like Kara mentioned, I want the game itself to be a complete package in which everything is (or at least can be) logically explained. I'd love to be able to play LOTR/Silmarillion style maps in SC2, but I just can't. Not with that theme. It bugs me. There are things in life you cannot choose - how you feel. I'm not denying the amount of work put into such maps, but they're simply not for me. In the same fashion as how I've never enjoyed sports games.
I just don't like stuff where the theme doesn't fit. I'm a perfectionist. Like Kara mentioned, I want the game itself to be a complete package in which everything is (or at least can be) logically explained. I'd love to be able to play LOTR/Silmarillion style maps in SC2, but I just can't. Not with that theme. It bugs me.
Absolutely. A game/map needs to feel good. If you've a medival setting and put space jets in there it usually fails, and if you have a sci-fi setting then you just don't try to re-create battles fought with bow and arrow x.x
Why the Battle for Helm's Deep? Why can't it be the Battle of New Gettysburg? Not only is it an epic piece of story but it even fits the setting!
But just because of these .. issues the map can still be well-made and fun.
Well i'm a person who started playing sc1 lotr back in 2002-2003. But yes lotr maps were definately in sc1 long before they were in wc3. I did not like the wc3 maps even though they had units more similar to what the lotr world would be though. As far as trying to fit a map to what the units already are, models take up space if I'm not mistaken? I'm not too familiar with editor either and I see no point in adding many unneeded things if it will just make a map with MANY units lag more. However I do know that Tolkien books are in general pieces of literature that have effected so many things including all of these games that we all play, and on top of that Sc1 was the game that changed rts games. Why then shouldn't they be able to go together? I myself hate star trek, i enjoy star wars but i wouldn't find it anywhere near as epic as an lotr setup. There is so much more history in it alone. and many units in tolkiens work are the foundation of many games
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In light of the recent asking of why people dislike SotIS, and the interesting revelations and discussions that it provoked, I want to ask a similar question and promote discussion about it. Kalreborn was kind enough to recreate all the great lotr maps we loved so much in sc1 for sc2. These maps, living fossils themselves, come from an sc1 veteran and lover of lotr. However, I feel that lotr doesn't get its worth in merit. Some of the reasons I have explored in others, but i want to hear if there is more to it.
So here goes, why do a vast majority of people dislike, or for that matter, refuse to try lord of the rings games? The games offer a skill cieling comparable to Dota, and anybody who loves grand battles loves lord of the rings. LOTR has a solid core community, which speaks volumes of its depth. Surely more would be interested in...delving deeper per se?
TL;DR
Why do a vast majority of the people on battle net dislike lotr games?
@LaertesSC2: Go
Lotr is fantasy. It simply does not fit in the Science Fiction genre. If it was Warcraft 3 or somethin' it would be a different story.
Everyone claims this, it is one of the most basic and common answers, but this just exemplifies the graphics craze. People really need to chill out and remember that the original blizzard client lotr games were for sc1, all wc3 lotr games pay credence to them. Also, for wc3, keep in mind that the graphics aren't that "lotr" either, they're warcraft graphics, and none of the models fit anyway. Lotr has always been about gameplay, and its fun because of its high skill ceiling.
In addition, the lotr game has a steadfast community with the birth of chat channels, allowing it to thrive since patch 1.2. However, to refuse to play a game because the theme does not "fit" is utterly ridiculous, since the true lotr spirit has always been in SC and never in WC.
No, it isn't. Theme is an important part of the overall experience and most people just don't feel right controlling a marine called Frodo. Some people can overlook this, and more power to them. But, to say it is wrong to care about such things is ridiculous.
Karawasa is 100% right. The fact that the theme is completely different is the main turn-off for me. I played LOTR maps in Warcraft III (specifically, I played a LOT of Silmarillion), but in SC it just isn't the same.
Okay, perhaps I am a little hasty to judge, but the ghost named frodo is just as much frodo and just as little frodo as the scaled down villager named frodo. Regardless, I feel that you really should not be playing lotr if you cant overlook theme, as this "theme" is not the main fun of the game.
Now, the lotr community is tight, and we all know each other by name and skill level. But I feel another turn off is the complication. The game is not an easy one to play. No matter how brilliant you are, you'll be confused by lotr on the first run through. Sure...the tips explain everything in detail...but who wants to read tips?
As they say, who reads the manual?
EDIT: Have you given lotr any chances as of yet Mozared or Karawasa? I do not believe the map is published in europe so you may be exempt Moz (Sorry :P), but Karawasa, have you bothered to try the map at all? A lot say they hate the theme, and then forget to try the map because they're busy hating the theme.
What if people imported models from the LotR RTS games? Would it feel better to play then?
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by 'lotr' in this instance as I've seen many LOTR-themed maps - I have tried all of them, though. Some were crappy, some were well balanced and executed, but the theme felt horribly off in all of them.
@Keyeszx: Go
That would work fine. Most of these simple 'alliances, heroes & units' maps can be really great if executed well. As mentioned, I was a huge fan of the Silmarillion map in Warcraft III (and actually a Tolkien fan in general). Assuming the balance and polish is good, theme really is my only problem with the genre.
there are lotr maps?! would test them but not with space marines...
Ya, its pretty much everyone's, I think its the biggest problem with lotr maps. At least, however, some can ignore, or imagine it is lotr. And I feel yet another problem is the laggy environ, and as TheZizz once said, he gets 2 FPS in lotr games. I don't know how effective Kal's initial triggering was in most of them, but to say the least, there are WAY more triggers than an SC2 map should ever need, let alone have, perhaps because of the spawns. The best way would probably be to combine triggers for wotr, pre is fine, trop needs to reduce the global life of cannons and increase global life of units, and I can't say much for eriador or palamani's War in the South map.
If you imported WoW models and used them instead of marines, they would be good. Using marine and thor models may work for Nexus Wars, but when it's based off a fantasy world, it really isn't good.
If it's the gameplay that's important, then create a new theme to fit the existing gameplay. Don't call it LotR. Base it on Firefly or something. Maybe Star Trek.
My thoughts exactly. Surely epic battles are not unique to LotR?
Kara, i still doubt you've played it before, although mozared has. You're referencing epic space battles, and saying "come up with a new theme", and trust me some will. To me, it doesn't matter what theme it should be, because the models will always be incorrect. Movies too. I now imagine nazgul as leviathans, and frodo as a ghost. That's ALRIGHT with me. But the extensive lore of the lotr universe makes it a prime target for the not one, but now FIVE maps based off of it, each with its own gameplay, timeline, feel, and units. Its hard to do a star wars map type thing, because the lore is so much less extensive. Anyway, people should NOT be limited by the theme of the game. It limits us so much in our ideas by saying models matter. This early, we should only worry about gameplay, ideas, etc. DO NOT LET THEME OR LACK THEREOF BOG YOU DOWN. The "all important theme" is totally dropped in lotr, which is an amazing game. Karawasa, in fact, totally misses what makes the game fun in his post of "epic space battles". He also hasn't flamed the game in any way yet, so I doubt he's played it.
I've played LotR games in W3 (specifically recalling the hero siege one). They're good, and the main reason why they play so well is because it's both appealing in gameplay and in visual terms. I might not be a great fan of the real LotR series but LotR + W3 just seems like a great fit, since they're both pretty much medieval-ish technology.
For SC2, it just pains me to imagine someone who's supposed to hold a bow and arrow suddenly been given an assault rifle and wearing heavy armor. It's like watching old china movies and calling it Star Trek(Spears and swords instead of phasers and disruptors). It just doesn't work that way. However, I do agree with the fact that if proper models were implemented to give that good ol' LotR feel, then it'd work nicely. Unfortunately, something like that takes far too long.
Vexal pointed out that instead of LotR, we could go for something that suits the high tech-ness that is SC2. Yes, I would think that there are other epic battles out there but the flaw remains in that things like Star Trek and Star Wars aren't exactly as diverse as LotR( Swords & magic. And magic has just too many aspects to it that makes it so unique. Also, the flashy skills :D ). Take Star Wars for example. In the end it'll just be lightsabers, blasters and the force. Note that I'm looking at this from a hero design pov, where it'll be reasonably tough to fish out skills that are somewhat unique to themselves.
A well designed epic battle map for Star Trek would be quite... no, extremely hard(Though if someone manages to get past the hardships below then surely it'll be very good). First of all, Star Trek battles take place in 2 very different settings : Huge fleet ship battles (Giant cubes vs streamlined ships)[Wonder why they're streamlined if there's no friction that causes any air resistance though] and battles within ships themselves/ on planets. Then there needs to be a good balance of the different species(Borg just dominates all eventually unless some random Species 8472 come out and beat em up a little).
@LaertesSC2
Originally, I thought that I couldn't really care about what theme something is on as long as it's good but I realized that I actually did care =/
I think what SC2 really needs is to create its own original stuff and not base it off existing material. An epic battle game only seen in SC2 ( Not involving the 3 races that are available though ). That way, the theme is set and is already available and people will be able to work around that theme to create something awesome.
@LaertesSC2: Go
Indeed, I have never played one. But, you're making me want to try it less and less with every post. So, these games are or are not about the battles themselves? You keep mentioning the lore as if this is an RPG or some sort of campaign with story. Why do you need extensive lore for a giant battle? Clearly, I do not know what makes this type of game appealing. My guess would be the roleplay/imagination aspect of it (like D&D) based on what you've said. In that case, I can't offer much positive as I never liked games like that. I don't play games to use my imagination in order to fill in the blanks, the game is supposed to be the whole package.
By the way, stop saying people shouldn't be limited by the theme of the game. You're clearly in the minority here. Most people DO care about a marine called Frodo and that's perfectly OK.
This is true, again. Like Kara said in his first reply, really - a lot of people care a lot for the theme. This isn't something you "can or can not be" limited by. I don't "choose" to be limited by it, I just don't like stuff where the theme doesn't fit. I'm a perfectionist. Like Kara mentioned, I want the game itself to be a complete package in which everything is (or at least can be) logically explained. I'd love to be able to play LOTR/Silmarillion style maps in SC2, but I just can't. Not with that theme. It bugs me. There are things in life you cannot choose - how you feel. I'm not denying the amount of work put into such maps, but they're simply not for me. In the same fashion as how I've never enjoyed sports games.
Absolutely. A game/map needs to feel good. If you've a medival setting and put space jets in there it usually fails, and if you have a sci-fi setting then you just don't try to re-create battles fought with bow and arrow x.x
Why the Battle for Helm's Deep? Why can't it be the Battle of New Gettysburg? Not only is it an epic piece of story but it even fits the setting!
But just because of these .. issues the map can still be well-made and fun.
Well i'm a person who started playing sc1 lotr back in 2002-2003. But yes lotr maps were definately in sc1 long before they were in wc3. I did not like the wc3 maps even though they had units more similar to what the lotr world would be though. As far as trying to fit a map to what the units already are, models take up space if I'm not mistaken? I'm not too familiar with editor either and I see no point in adding many unneeded things if it will just make a map with MANY units lag more. However I do know that Tolkien books are in general pieces of literature that have effected so many things including all of these games that we all play, and on top of that Sc1 was the game that changed rts games. Why then shouldn't they be able to go together? I myself hate star trek, i enjoy star wars but i wouldn't find it anywhere near as epic as an lotr setup. There is so much more history in it alone. and many units in tolkiens work are the foundation of many games