Thanks for all the replies. I'll take all of this into consideration. I'm thinking i'm going to get my major in computer science and level design, so that I have a backup plan, and it would also be a pretty good job for me as well if I ended up doing it.
I would say go for it, I too wanted to work in the video game industry however, until my family and I had a talk about my future and I realized that honing in on one thing isn't always the best thing. So I've decided that instead of putting all my efforts into something that could screw me over in the end, I will go broader giving me other options in other fun positions. In other words, I intend to major in Computer Science in general, instead of just 3D modeling, which I had originally intended to do.
Because as you just said yourself, this is how it goes in Spain. I can
only talk about France but it's a completely different matter, I was
only able to get jobs when I was still a student. You're right about
mobile phones games as far as I can tell, though browser games are done
by a lot of amateurs now and it tends to apply to phone games too... So
even about that, it's not as easy as it seems to get a job (again, in
France). Video games companies here are dying, whatever they say. Our
government had to put something in place to help these companies, by
reducing taxes and encouraging innovation (we have very strong copyright
policies, which applies to video games in addition to the music
copyrights and such).
Most of the small developers cannot afford to pay you for the job, so
they tend to choose the guys who have a really good portfolio and are
ready to work no matter what happens to the company. There are too many
demands and not enough jobs available, which is why it's slowly dying.
My last year of study was almost entirely devoted to making a video game
with my classmates, and even such a game project in our portfolio wasn't
enough to get hired. We all have good resumes, but only 5 guys out of 20
have a job now (4 years after graduating), and 2 of them found their job
out of France... Reality hurts.
I find that pretty strange, considering here the government doesn't give a shit about videogame companies, and the only contact they have together is when they order "educative" videogames and stuff like that for schools, that give some sort of fresh air breath to the companies, but that's all. They have zero support aside from those orders.
Still, must agree on the "go outside" thing. I'm sorry, but if I ever get to work in videogames, I want a serious project, not some "let's make dozens of flash games and hope some succeed" stuff. There ain't many serious companies here at Europe, sadly.
I don't think level design is even a real major, at least, I've never heard of it. Game design is a combination of visionary plus critical thinking. Computer science should give you a push in the right direction for critical thinking.
You also might want to try majoring in math. A huge part of computer science is abstract math. Real math is abstract math. The two have a large amount of overlap, and promote critical and logical thinking.
that ain't true europe has some serious companies especially the Scandinavian countries have some famous ones ; but yeah in comprehension to NA(Canada+US) we are far behind in both companies and offered education
Btw. possible side-choices for game industry :
Math (Programmers) - with some self-teaching data types or side courses in computer science
Physics (Programmers) - with some self-teaching data types or side courses in computer science
Yeah, was planning on going heavy in the math. People would like me more that way. Thankfully, I'm good at every subject. =D ... and dreadfully, I don't have a best subject because of it.
If you want to learn level design at home then the best you could do would probably be creating levels for Crysis 2 in the CryEngine 3 and awesome looking stuff in Unreal Engine 3 (or UDK, it's free (www.udk.com)) :)
Now that's why I come to these forums - to get something interesting and helpful! Gonna try myself at level creating in that thingy. :D
If you want to learn level design at home then the best you could do would probably be creating levels for Crysis 2 in the CryEngine 3 and awesome looking stuff in Unreal Engine 3 (or UDK, it's free (www.udk.com)) :)
True, but don't think it will help that much when it's time to get a job. The problem is you don't only need to do impressive maps, you also need to do them VERY fast. My last known experience was 30 maps in 3 months (6 levels ingame, divided in 5 parts each) and it was a small project on DS. The worst nightmare of level designers is the deadline. They are the last part of the chain and if they're late, the game isn't out in time... which is a really huge problem, especially in AAA games, so they'd rather release a bugged game than taking time to polish it. The more you delay the release of a game, the more players (and games critics) will lose interest in it... which also means your society will lose money, and they HATE to. You cannot do maps only taking the quality of it into consideration, it's very important to show that you can work fast, even when being disturbed every now and then by someone in the team asking you to do this, add that, change this, remove that,... or make coffee.
I never said my assumption was correct. I simply stated it was my assumption.
However, I really do not see the merit in a degree in level design. What exactly do you learn? It's not a science, it's not engineering. It's just a trade skill.
I became a level designer intern with nothing but my warcraft 3 projects to show for. After the internship I could have become a normal level designer but I choose against it because of the lack of jobs after each finished product. They also don't pay very much (germany).
Sadly, no. I'm making mods and maps since I'm 12, I got no job thanks to them. It just shows them you're dedicated, and potentially talented.
Quoted for lie. Have any of your maps/mods been successful? You said yourself portfolio is greater than education. I've heard from more than one person in the industry that a successful map/mod is invaluable towards getting a job. A map/mod shows you're dedicated, I agree. But, a successful map/mod shows you're talented too. What other purpose does a portfolio serve?
True, but don't think it will help that much when it's time to get a job. The problem is you don't only need to do impressive maps, you also need to do them VERY fast. My last known experience was 30 maps in 3 months (6 levels ingame, divided in 5 parts each) and it was a small project on DS. The worst nightmare of level designers is the deadline. They are the last part of the chain and if they're late, the game isn't out in time... which is a really huge problem, especially in AAA games, so they'd rather release a bugged game than taking time to polish it. The more you delay the release of a game, the more players (and games critics) will lose interest in it... which also means your society will lose money, and they HATE to. You cannot do maps only taking the quality of it into consideration, it's very important to show that you can work fast, even when being disturbed every now and then by someone in the team asking you to do this, add that, change this, remove that,... or make coffee.
Well, the Duke proved that assumption very wrong, didn't he? ^^
@Skittles17: Go
What is probably most important to companies, when you apply for Level Design, is not your degree, neither pretty pictures. It's creating something of quality, knowing your basics as a starter and knowing how the hell you go about doing a level and working with what you have. You have to know how to work with limits (Engine, Assets, Time, Money, etc) and how to write the Documentation, so that any new hired guy knows what the hell your team wants to do with that level. Oh and scripting. If you can't script, you might as well just not apply. Learn how to script in LUA, Kismet, UScript, Python etc. Speed is also quite the factor on a single level. If you're lucky, you get months. If you're unlucky, you get one. Depends on the project.
Quoted for lie. Have any of your maps/mods been successful? You said yourself portfolio is greater than education. I've heard from more than one person in the industry that a successful map/mod is invaluable towards getting a job. A map/mod shows you're dedicated, I agree. But, a successful map/mod shows you're talented too. What other purpose does a portfolio serve?
PS: This is for USA.
US & Canada are entirely different work-areas compared to Europe. Here, you don't get a job for a pretty map, you get a job for knowing your stuff. We also don't have as many companies around as you guys have. So it's different for us folks over here ;)
US Canada are entirely different work-areas compared to Europe. Here, you don't get a job for a pretty map, you get a job for knowing your stuff. We also don't have as many companies around as you guys have. So it's different for us folks over here ;)
You seem to imply that a pretty map does not equal knowing your stuff. I couldn't disagree more. Depends on your intended job in the industry of course.
However, I really do not see the merit in a degree in level design. What exactly do you learn? It's not a science, it's not engineering. It's just a trade skill.
To sum up briefly, art and programming skills... Pretty much everything an architect would learn, but oriented for games (which means there are lots of constraints you must be aware of, and ready to deal with... "Engine, Assets, Time, Money, etc" as Gorandor said). There is a huge difference between map making as an amateur and map making as a pro, mostly coming from the fact that you don't work alone and must follow graphical charts, scenario, timelines, plannings and such... You also need to learn how to work efficiently while waiting for the others to finish their part of the job, especially graphists and modelers (using placeholders everywhere, giving relevant names to each object, placing landmarks, etc...). It's not as easy as it looks, it's mostly common sense and organization but not every amateur map maker can do it.
I could have become a normal level designer but I choose against it because of the lack of jobs after each finished product. They also don't pay very much (germany).
Yeah, same here... Sadly. I'm still hoping I could find a good job somewhere though, which is why I chose to move. Being a level designer is a weird life... It's pretty exciting while you are part of a project, but you can also spend a lot of time unemployed in between. It wouldn't be that much of a problem if it was paid a bit better though, especially for juniors.
A map/mod shows you're dedicated, I agree. But, a successful map/mod shows you're talented too. What other purpose does a portfolio serve?
PS: This is for USA.
A successful map only shows you are lucky, I'm afraid... There are so many maps on BNet which are popular and don't deserve it! Societies (worldwide) don't mix up your map making experience and portfolio. Portfolio shows your skills in 2D or 3D arts, while map making shows how you manage a whole project (including the programming parts). This is why having skills in both is quite important. If you lack any of the fields required for the job they have, you're one step away from getting the job (my programming skills are limited, I'm pretty sure that's why it's so hard for me to get a job here in France). Talent is just a plus, most of the applicants to the job have it (or learned it) anyway.
A successful map only shows you are lucky, I'm afraid... There are so many maps on BNet which are popular and don't deserve it! Societies (worldwide) don't mix up your map making experience and portfolio. Portfolio shows your skills in 2D or 3D arts, while map making shows how you manage a whole project (including the programming parts).
Again, I will attribute it to your location. But, you are so wrong. Your distinction between map and portfolio is funny. Your portfolio is a collection of work relevant to the position you are applying for. Why the hell would I have 2D or 3D art in my portfolio if I am going into game design? You can argue I need some artistic eye to do that position well, but that is represented in my map. 2D or 3D art would be overkill. A map shows much more than just managing a project. It can be a centerpiece for a portfolio quite easily.
Also, a successful map does not show only luck. That is your biased opinion, stop trying to pass it off as universal. There will be many measures of success beyond just popularity rating (especially post 1.3), so to say it is some unworthy indicator is foolish. This sounds like the attitude of someone who never made anything successful himself.
I still feel compelled to laugh at and look down upon someone who has a "game design" or "level design" degree. It just seems like liberal arts bullshit to me. I'm sorry.
Get a degree in a natural science, or engineering. Take a software engineering class. Most CS departments have multiple game design classes where you work with teams. I know the UT CS department does.
If I were hiring and I saw "majored in level design", I'd just stop reading right there.
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Thanks for all the replies. I'll take all of this into consideration. I'm thinking i'm going to get my major in computer science and level design, so that I have a backup plan, and it would also be a pretty good job for me as well if I ended up doing it.
computer science hmm? One of my personal ideas.
I find that pretty strange, considering here the government doesn't give a shit about videogame companies, and the only contact they have together is when they order "educative" videogames and stuff like that for schools, that give some sort of fresh air breath to the companies, but that's all. They have zero support aside from those orders.
Still, must agree on the "go outside" thing. I'm sorry, but if I ever get to work in videogames, I want a serious project, not some "let's make dozens of flash games and hope some succeed" stuff. There ain't many serious companies here at Europe, sadly.
Computer science is probably the way to go.
I don't think level design is even a real major, at least, I've never heard of it. Game design is a combination of visionary plus critical thinking. Computer science should give you a push in the right direction for critical thinking.
You also might want to try majoring in math. A huge part of computer science is abstract math. Real math is abstract math. The two have a large amount of overlap, and promote critical and logical thinking.
@Lonami: Go
that ain't true europe has some serious companies especially the Scandinavian countries have some famous ones ; but yeah in comprehension to NA(Canada+US) we are far behind in both companies and offered education
Btw. possible side-choices for game industry :
note that this is personal opinion ;
@xhatix: Go
Yeah, was planning on going heavy in the math. People would like me more that way. Thankfully, I'm good at every subject. =D ... and dreadfully, I don't have a best subject because of it.
Now that's why I come to these forums - to get something interesting and helpful! Gonna try myself at level creating in that thingy. :D
@o3210: Go
I thought you came because I'm here?
Level design already IS a 4-year degree. :) I agree about other degrees opening more doors, though...
Sadly, no. I'm making mods and maps since I'm 12, I got no job thanks to them. It just shows them you're dedicated, and potentially talented.
True, but don't think it will help that much when it's time to get a job. The problem is you don't only need to do impressive maps, you also need to do them VERY fast. My last known experience was 30 maps in 3 months (6 levels ingame, divided in 5 parts each) and it was a small project on DS. The worst nightmare of level designers is the deadline. They are the last part of the chain and if they're late, the game isn't out in time... which is a really huge problem, especially in AAA games, so they'd rather release a bugged game than taking time to polish it. The more you delay the release of a game, the more players (and games critics) will lose interest in it... which also means your society will lose money, and they HATE to. You cannot do maps only taking the quality of it into consideration, it's very important to show that you can work fast, even when being disturbed every now and then by someone in the team asking you to do this, add that, change this, remove that,... or make coffee.
I'm going to assume "level design" is a field of liberal arts.
Liberal arts majors don't count as real majors.
RUNNING LINE SCAN TOOL
/ / / / /
LINE 1: ASSUMPTION (COGENT)
LINE 2: NULL
LINE 3: ASSERTION (LEVEL 2 IGNORANCE DETECTED) -BIAS WARNING-
/ / / / /
ANALYSIS: ARGUMENT SHOULD BE DISCOUNTED FOR BIAS, ARGUER FLAGGED AS TROLL
/ / / / /
SCAN TOOL END
@DarkRevenantX: Go
I never said my assumption was correct. I simply stated it was my assumption.
However, I really do not see the merit in a degree in level design. What exactly do you learn? It's not a science, it's not engineering. It's just a trade skill.
what i see "level design" meaning is that your given a programming language and your told to make a game with multiple level designs
I became a level designer intern with nothing but my warcraft 3 projects to show for. After the internship I could have become a normal level designer but I choose against it because of the lack of jobs after each finished product. They also don't pay very much (germany).
Quoted for lie. Have any of your maps/mods been successful? You said yourself portfolio is greater than education. I've heard from more than one person in the industry that a successful map/mod is invaluable towards getting a job. A map/mod shows you're dedicated, I agree. But, a successful map/mod shows you're talented too. What other purpose does a portfolio serve?
PS: This is for USA.
Well, the Duke proved that assumption very wrong, didn't he? ^^
@Skittles17: Go What is probably most important to companies, when you apply for Level Design, is not your degree, neither pretty pictures. It's creating something of quality, knowing your basics as a starter and knowing how the hell you go about doing a level and working with what you have. You have to know how to work with limits (Engine, Assets, Time, Money, etc) and how to write the Documentation, so that any new hired guy knows what the hell your team wants to do with that level. Oh and scripting. If you can't script, you might as well just not apply. Learn how to script in LUA, Kismet, UScript, Python etc. Speed is also quite the factor on a single level. If you're lucky, you get months. If you're unlucky, you get one. Depends on the project.
US & Canada are entirely different work-areas compared to Europe. Here, you don't get a job for a pretty map, you get a job for knowing your stuff. We also don't have as many companies around as you guys have. So it's different for us folks over here ;)
You seem to imply that a pretty map does not equal knowing your stuff. I couldn't disagree more. Depends on your intended job in the industry of course.
To sum up briefly, art and programming skills... Pretty much everything an architect would learn, but oriented for games (which means there are lots of constraints you must be aware of, and ready to deal with... "Engine, Assets, Time, Money, etc" as Gorandor said). There is a huge difference between map making as an amateur and map making as a pro, mostly coming from the fact that you don't work alone and must follow graphical charts, scenario, timelines, plannings and such... You also need to learn how to work efficiently while waiting for the others to finish their part of the job, especially graphists and modelers (using placeholders everywhere, giving relevant names to each object, placing landmarks, etc...). It's not as easy as it looks, it's mostly common sense and organization but not every amateur map maker can do it.
Yeah, same here... Sadly. I'm still hoping I could find a good job somewhere though, which is why I chose to move. Being a level designer is a weird life... It's pretty exciting while you are part of a project, but you can also spend a lot of time unemployed in between. It wouldn't be that much of a problem if it was paid a bit better though, especially for juniors.
A successful map only shows you are lucky, I'm afraid... There are so many maps on BNet which are popular and don't deserve it! Societies (worldwide) don't mix up your map making experience and portfolio. Portfolio shows your skills in 2D or 3D arts, while map making shows how you manage a whole project (including the programming parts). This is why having skills in both is quite important. If you lack any of the fields required for the job they have, you're one step away from getting the job (my programming skills are limited, I'm pretty sure that's why it's so hard for me to get a job here in France). Talent is just a plus, most of the applicants to the job have it (or learned it) anyway.
OMGWTFLOLBBQ! :D
Again, I will attribute it to your location. But, you are so wrong. Your distinction between map and portfolio is funny. Your portfolio is a collection of work relevant to the position you are applying for. Why the hell would I have 2D or 3D art in my portfolio if I am going into game design? You can argue I need some artistic eye to do that position well, but that is represented in my map. 2D or 3D art would be overkill. A map shows much more than just managing a project. It can be a centerpiece for a portfolio quite easily.
Also, a successful map does not show only luck. That is your biased opinion, stop trying to pass it off as universal. There will be many measures of success beyond just popularity rating (especially post 1.3), so to say it is some unworthy indicator is foolish. This sounds like the attitude of someone who never made anything successful himself.
@ZealNaga: Go
I still feel compelled to laugh at and look down upon someone who has a "game design" or "level design" degree. It just seems like liberal arts bullshit to me. I'm sorry.
Get a degree in a natural science, or engineering. Take a software engineering class. Most CS departments have multiple game design classes where you work with teams. I know the UT CS department does.
If I were hiring and I saw "majored in level design", I'd just stop reading right there.