The thing about software, and especially games is, they are never truly finished. There is always something to adjust.
... If anyone's wondering about my contribution to the RTC: I've thrown away a lot of ideas now and now I've turned to the most simple: Bossfights. So imagine a typical co-op map like Rifts to Korhal, but instead of destroying Void Shards you kill bosses. Will be a while before I can post screenshots; too much real-life stuff to do :)
I am doing "stationary" objectives on my map but - shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no. am not going to let you in on what it is till i publish it to public. HA :D Just an FYI - this hasn't been done before or even suggested (to my knowledge) before. :D
Sounds interesting. Cant really add anything since i would need to play it to get a feel for the map. But i have some boss ideas.
Boss ideas:
1. Giant infested boss. He will walk from a distant area all the way to your base. If he gets to your base he will explode like a huge baneling, also leaving little exploding infested behind. U will have to destroy him before the doomsday base march. 2. Adaption boss. This boss adapts to the attacks of the player. He absorbs the attacks and uses them against u. The strategy here would be to use units that are less powerful. If u attack him with melee he absorbs it and becomes more resisted to them. 3. Death boss. This boss leaves a trail of creep behind. Any unit standing on this trail will be damaged. He also can use plague. Plague is a dot that will jump to any units nearby. Once infected it will drain your hp till you die. Not my idea but a recent mutator added :). The creep trail i got from Onetwo tutorials. Link: Duplication boss. This creature is able to duplicate,divide its body indefinitely. The divided unit loses its original strength. Kill the original source to slay all the duplicates. There is a duplication protoss unit abilty in the editor actually. Forgot which one. 4. Boss that hp regen is extremely extremely high. Will need tons of dmg to take him down. 5. Boss that creates random phases to tap into his powers. He changes color,abilty depending on phase.Red phase could be super strength, yellow speed, orange agility. Well you could go on forever with boss ideas ^^
Cool ideas. I've created 4 bosses so far. All of them are stationary or semi-stationary (wander behaviour like critters), so one that actually attacks bases could be cool.
Currently the objectives are:
- Slay the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/11)
- Do Not Let 20 Eggs Be Destroyed (0/20)
Gameplay:
Most of the Bosses (Primal Pack Ascendants) will be duplicate around the map. They will be activated in a 1-2-2-3-3-style and spread around the map similarly to the Mist Opportunities co-op map. Transmissions and timers will warn the players when the Bosses are about to become active, but they can be activated by just attacking them prematurely. The objective "Do Not Let 20 Eggs Be Destroyed" acts as a timer for this map. Each Boss has around 10 eggs around him. When the boss becomes active and no player unit is nearby he will attack the eggs around him. The boss will always focus on nearby players first and his player-focused abilities will not harm the eggs; By attacking a boss a player can stall the process of destroying eggs.
Story:
Zerus occupied by Amon's Forces blabla Amon has corrupted Primal Pack Ascendants which will kill important eggs blabla.
Current state:
4 bosses finished so far; no plans (yet) to add more. I'm currently working on having bosses interact with eggs and interfering players (almost finished). As soon as I'm done I will do some tests with multiple (possibly 11, activated in a 1-2-2-3-3 style) bosses. Have not yet worked on enemy waves (or special Hybrid attacks for that matter). Want to make sure that bosses and objectives work properly and are fun first! Will work on terrain after gameplay is finished.
1. Terrible Idea because players would just give it a sacrificial target like a lone bunker surrounded by stukov summons in the middle of nowhere and it would eliminate itself.
2. But most armies already use a mix of damage types. Also if permanent the boss would become more of a grind than a challenge.
3. Another terrible idea because there would be no way to differentiate between player made creep and boss creep. Closest you could do would be a Create Persistent effect that is applied to the point of the caster periodically that does DoT for a fixed duration. The plague ability sounds like my Transfer Behaviour demo map from 2010.
4. Indefinite is a bad idea in that Co-op maps are meant to be deterministic and winnable within 30-45 mins.
5. Also a silly idea because Kerrigan can do insane single target dps as can the Draken Laser Drill.
6. A colour change would only be beneficial if there is a distinct weakness.
I wouldn't say terrible. More like inspirational with some necessary tweaking^^
One thing I have learned from this thread is to not focus on single big targets, but instead split them into multiple ones. At the very least havethe players complete some sort of mini-objectives first (e.g. devices that power the boss) before allowing them to attack the boss directly.
1) As he said the boss would only explode once he reaches the base. I would add a specific objectives that need to be protected, and multiple bosses that arrive in waves (very similar to the Void Launch map). You could try the opposite version where you had to escort a boss like this. You would have to make sure it's pathing is unhindered (I tried this, but using the Zerus tileset I couldn't find a logical reason to block building pathing).
2) I agree that players already use damage types. I would either make it more simple (e.g. ranged vs melee attacks, or ground vs. air attacks) or add multiple bosses, and the more you damage one, the stronger it gets. The effect will cool down over time, during this time the players can focus on one of the other bosses.
3) Instead of creep I would add a simple effect (see Slivan boss from HotS-Supreme) where the ground gets covered in some stuff which damages/slows player units.
4) see 2)
5) I tried multiple phases for some of my bosses, but that was when there weren't that many of them. I also think it's important to not make stuff too complex, so I try not to add too many abilities for each boss.
- Getting the bosses to work with objectives (attack the eggs when no players units are around)
- Testing various level design layouts. The bosses need a lot of space; I tried some variation where they are grouped and very close together. Now I'm trying the opposite and they are very far apart. Looks better but need to test it more.
- Separate starting bases
- Testing some sort of neutral Nydus Worm that can transport player units quickly. Might not add it if it feels uneccessary or like it takes away from co-op commander traits (is there a commander with a Nydus Worm?).
I have barely implemented any enemy bases. The current map design is just to test the bosses/objectives, so the map design will most definitely change once I add the enemy bases. (Boss distribution/activation is now 1-2-3-4).
- Getting the bosses to work with objectives (attack the eggs when no players units are around)
- Testing various level design layouts. The bosses need a lot of space; I tried some variation where they are grouped and very close together. Now I'm trying the opposite and they are very far apart. Looks better but need to test it more.
- Separate starting bases
- Testing some sort of neutral Nydus Worm that can transport player units quickly. Might not add it if it feels uneccessary or like it takes away from co-op commander traits (is there a commander with a Nydus Worm?).
I have barely implemented any enemy bases. The current map design is just to test the bosses/objectives, so the map design will most definitely change once I add the enemy bases. (Boss distribution/activation is now 1-2-3-4).
Currently the objectives are:
- Slay the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/10)
- Do Not Let 10 Eggs Be Destroyed (0/10)
Uhhhh
Kerrigan has a nydus worm it's one of her (many) support abilities
Yeah, I'll just have to test to see how many of these Nyduses I should place so all commanders feel the benefit, but Kerrigan's ability still is supreme.
At the moment the players' starting bases are separate, so preplaced Nyduses would help.
Looks really interesting so far. But why nydus? Why not a cave from which u can fast travel? I see u already added them to ally base. Its a neat interesting idea.
Co-op isnt really rocket science, u cant go wrong there. every map follows a similar routine.
1. Ai attacking u at the 3-4 min mark. Depending on difficulty. 2. After that u want to clear the rocks of the expansions. Some have rocks while others dont. Some expo are far away while others close by. 3. Kill the bonus where some is timed while other is infinite. 4. There are enemy camp A.I and there are enemy bases with camped A.i 5. Game becomes harder the more time passes. More units,frequent waves,hybrid attacks...
So the game is always in phases. Making sure the player has something to do. Defend first attack wave,clear expo, first mission objective,time for rest,bonus, ai attacks u,main objective again, second bonus, ai attack,last main objectiv... end.
I had an idea for 1 boss.
A deep tunnel boss. A boss that burrows and unborrows constantly from location to location. To defeat him u either have to split your forces or your ally has to deal with him. He might even pay a visit to your base. Each time lower his hp for 25 % to make him retreat.
Which follow the guidelines: "Design moments where the players need to fight together, and moments where they need to fight apart."
The Nyduses ARE caves. I just wrote Nyduses because I didn't need to explain the mechanic anymore.
The "problem" is trying to break away from the gameplay Blizzard has provided so far, while still maintaining the routine you mention plus making the map as accessible as possible. I haven't played that many RTC maps, but so far the only one who's sucessfully done that in my opinion is Narudek's Mothership map.
This map is a constant battle^^ going back and forth between ideas.
So... I was actually happy with the boss fights.... Even when I split the bosses into groups of 1/2/3/4. But then I started adding the enemy bases, and now the bosses seem almost negligible and way too similar to the Void Thrashing/Rifts to Korhal maps.
I'm currently reverting it back to having four distinct bosses, but each one is protected by 1/2/3/4 moving Void Crystals (a bit like the last Amon map) which have to be destroyed first. Only problem now is that I might have tro add a third main objective...
I didn't add a third main objective. Ithink highlight tooltips and the fact that the Void Crystals heal the bosses should be enough to make people aware that they need to be destroyed before a boss can be killed. Although I consider making them killable if there is enough concentrated damage.
- Slay the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/4)
- Ascendants Must Not Drain 20 Eggs (0/20)
The bosses can attack the eggs via very long ranged attacks, but I'm considering making them attackable by standard enemies as well.
Currently I'm refining the level layout and placing enemies. I'm testing the map now without any enemy waves (will come later).
Yes forgot to mention that. After some testing I realized that it's too much micro-management. Order units into cave, wait for them to be all inside, then order them outside at the exit. It's not much faster than just ordering your units from A to B. I still want to add some sort of mini-feature that separates this map from others.
There's still a lot to do. Hopefully I can finish all gameplay by the end of March. Then make terrain and publish in in the first week of April.
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Room for plenty of bossfights. I mean we have void thrashers and rifts which are ALMOST the same in map style (1-2-3-4 stationary objectives)
The condensed Custom Campaign Initiative is on this Google Sheet!
List of my Custom campaign text reviews (warning: only the first half of each is serious)
I am doing "stationary" objectives on my map but - shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no. am not going to let you in on what it is till i publish it to public. HA :D Just an FYI - this hasn't been done before or even suggested (to my knowledge) before. :D
@OutsiderXE
Sounds interesting. Cant really add anything since i would need to play it to get a feel for the map. But i have some boss ideas.
Boss ideas:
1. Giant infested boss. He will walk from a distant area all the way to your base. If he gets to your base he will explode like a huge baneling, also leaving little exploding infested behind. U will have to destroy him before the doomsday base march.
2. Adaption boss. This boss adapts to the attacks of the player. He absorbs the attacks and uses them against u. The strategy here would be to use units that are less powerful. If u attack him with melee he absorbs it and becomes more resisted to them.
3. Death boss. This boss leaves a trail of creep behind. Any unit standing on this trail will be damaged. He also can use plague. Plague is a dot that will jump to any units nearby. Once infected it will drain your hp till you die. Not my idea but a recent mutator added :). The creep trail i got from Onetwo tutorials. Link:
Duplication boss. This creature is able to duplicate,divide its body indefinitely. The divided unit loses its original strength. Kill the original source to slay all the duplicates. There is a duplication protoss unit abilty in the editor actually. Forgot which one.
4. Boss that hp regen is extremely extremely high. Will need tons of dmg to take him down.
5. Boss that creates random phases to tap into his powers. He changes color,abilty depending on phase.Red phase could be super strength, yellow speed, orange agility.
Well you could go on forever with boss ideas ^^
Cool ideas. I've created 4 bosses so far. All of them are stationary or semi-stationary (wander behaviour like critters), so one that actually attacks bases could be cool.
Currently the objectives are:
- Slay the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/11)
- Do Not Let 20 Eggs Be Destroyed (0/20)
Gameplay:
Most of the Bosses (Primal Pack Ascendants) will be duplicate around the map. They will be activated in a 1-2-2-3-3-style and spread around the map similarly to the Mist Opportunities co-op map. Transmissions and timers will warn the players when the Bosses are about to become active, but they can be activated by just attacking them prematurely. The objective "Do Not Let 20 Eggs Be Destroyed" acts as a timer for this map. Each Boss has around 10 eggs around him. When the boss becomes active and no player unit is nearby he will attack the eggs around him. The boss will always focus on nearby players first and his player-focused abilities will not harm the eggs; By attacking a boss a player can stall the process of destroying eggs.
Story:
Zerus occupied by Amon's Forces blabla Amon has corrupted Primal Pack Ascendants which will kill important eggs blabla.
Current state:
4 bosses finished so far; no plans (yet) to add more. I'm currently working on having bosses interact with eggs and interfering players (almost finished). As soon as I'm done I will do some tests with multiple (possibly 11, activated in a 1-2-2-3-3 style) bosses. Have not yet worked on enemy waves (or special Hybrid attacks for that matter). Want to make sure that bosses and objectives work properly and are fun first! Will work on terrain after gameplay is finished.
1. Terrible Idea because players would just give it a sacrificial target like a lone bunker surrounded by stukov summons in the middle of nowhere and it would eliminate itself.
2. But most armies already use a mix of damage types. Also if permanent the boss would become more of a grind than a challenge.
3. Another terrible idea because there would be no way to differentiate between player made creep and boss creep. Closest you could do would be a Create Persistent effect that is applied to the point of the caster periodically that does DoT for a fixed duration. The plague ability sounds like my Transfer Behaviour demo map from 2010.
4. Indefinite is a bad idea in that Co-op maps are meant to be deterministic and winnable within 30-45 mins.
5. Also a silly idea because Kerrigan can do insane single target dps as can the Draken Laser Drill.
6. A colour change would only be beneficial if there is a distinct weakness.
Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
https://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/tutorials/179654-data-actor-events-message-texture-select-by-id
https://media.forgecdn.net/attachments/187/40/Screenshot2011-04-17_09_16_21.jpg
I wouldn't say terrible. More like inspirational with some necessary tweaking^^
One thing I have learned from this thread is to not focus on single big targets, but instead split them into multiple ones. At the very least havethe players complete some sort of mini-objectives first (e.g. devices that power the boss) before allowing them to attack the boss directly.
1) As he said the boss would only explode once he reaches the base. I would add a specific objectives that need to be protected, and multiple bosses that arrive in waves (very similar to the Void Launch map). You could try the opposite version where you had to escort a boss like this. You would have to make sure it's pathing is unhindered (I tried this, but using the Zerus tileset I couldn't find a logical reason to block building pathing).
2) I agree that players already use damage types. I would either make it more simple (e.g. ranged vs melee attacks, or ground vs. air attacks) or add multiple bosses, and the more you damage one, the stronger it gets. The effect will cool down over time, during this time the players can focus on one of the other bosses.
3) Instead of creep I would add a simple effect (see Slivan boss from HotS-Supreme) where the ground gets covered in some stuff which damages/slows player units.
4) see 2)
5) I tried multiple phases for some of my bosses, but that was when there weren't that many of them. I also think it's important to not make stuff too complex, so I try not to add too many abilities for each boss.
1. So more or less like the defeat the Bombchu missions in Hyrule Warriors?
Contribute to the wiki (Wiki button at top of page) Considered easy altering of the unit textures?
https://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/tutorials/179654-data-actor-events-message-texture-select-by-id
https://media.forgecdn.net/attachments/187/40/Screenshot2011-04-17_09_16_21.jpg
I don't know that game.
Well my coop is almost done. You defend a city against giant monsters rising from the ocean.
Sooo can anyone do a good impression of a Marauder? Asking for a friend...
I got you covered, just send over the script when it's ready.
My YouTube | My SoundCloud | My Twitter
Currently working on (See attached screenshot):
- Getting the bosses to work with objectives (attack the eggs when no players units are around)
- Testing various level design layouts. The bosses need a lot of space; I tried some variation where they are grouped and very close together. Now I'm trying the opposite and they are very far apart. Looks better but need to test it more.
- Separate starting bases
- Testing some sort of neutral Nydus Worm that can transport player units quickly. Might not add it if it feels uneccessary or like it takes away from co-op commander traits (is there a commander with a Nydus Worm?).
I have barely implemented any enemy bases. The current map design is just to test the bosses/objectives, so the map design will most definitely change once I add the enemy bases. (Boss distribution/activation is now 1-2-3-4).
Currently the objectives are:
- Slay the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/10)
- Do Not Let 10 Eggs Be Destroyed (0/10)
The condensed Custom Campaign Initiative is on this Google Sheet!
List of my Custom campaign text reviews (warning: only the first half of each is serious)
Yeah, I'll just have to test to see how many of these Nyduses I should place so all commanders feel the benefit, but Kerrigan's ability still is supreme.
At the moment the players' starting bases are separate, so preplaced Nyduses would help.
Looks really interesting so far. But why nydus? Why not a cave from which u can fast travel? I see u already added them to ally base. Its a neat interesting idea.
Co-op isnt really rocket science, u cant go wrong there. every map follows a similar routine.
1. Ai attacking u at the 3-4 min mark. Depending on difficulty.
2. After that u want to clear the rocks of the expansions. Some have rocks while others dont. Some expo are far away while others close by.
3. Kill the bonus where some is timed while other is infinite.
4. There are enemy camp A.I and there are enemy bases with camped A.i
5. Game becomes harder the more time passes. More units,frequent waves,hybrid attacks...
So the game is always in phases. Making sure the player has something to do. Defend first attack wave,clear expo, first mission objective,time for rest,bonus, ai attacks u,main objective again, second bonus, ai attack,last main objectiv... end.
I had an idea for 1 boss.
A deep tunnel boss. A boss that burrows and unborrows constantly from location to location. To defeat him u either have to split your forces or your ally has to deal with him. He might even pay a visit to your base. Each time lower his hp for 25 % to make him retreat.
Which follow the guidelines: "Design moments where the players need to fight together, and moments where they need to fight apart."
The Nyduses ARE caves. I just wrote Nyduses because I didn't need to explain the mechanic anymore.
The "problem" is trying to break away from the gameplay Blizzard has provided so far, while still maintaining the routine you mention plus making the map as accessible as possible. I haven't played that many RTC maps, but so far the only one who's sucessfully done that in my opinion is Narudek's Mothership map.
This map is a constant battle^^ going back and forth between ideas.
So... I was actually happy with the boss fights.... Even when I split the bosses into groups of 1/2/3/4. But then I started adding the enemy bases, and now the bosses seem almost negligible and way too similar to the Void Thrashing/Rifts to Korhal maps.
I'm currently reverting it back to having four distinct bosses, but each one is protected by 1/2/3/4 moving Void Crystals (a bit like the last Amon map) which have to be destroyed first. Only problem now is that I might have tro add a third main objective...
See attached screenshot.
I didn't add a third main objective. Ithink highlight tooltips and the fact that the Void Crystals heal the bosses should be enough to make people aware that they need to be destroyed before a boss can be killed. Although I consider making them killable if there is enough concentrated damage.
- Slay the Primal Pack Ascendants (0/4)
- Ascendants Must Not Drain 20 Eggs (0/20)
The bosses can attack the eggs via very long ranged attacks, but I'm considering making them attackable by standard enemies as well.
Currently I'm refining the level layout and placing enemies. I'm testing the map now without any enemy waves (will come later).
U removed the caves. Shame, was an interesting concept. Hope i be the lucky person to to test this map, at some point. ^_^
Yes forgot to mention that. After some testing I realized that it's too much micro-management. Order units into cave, wait for them to be all inside, then order them outside at the exit. It's not much faster than just ordering your units from A to B. I still want to add some sort of mini-feature that separates this map from others.
There's still a lot to do. Hopefully I can finish all gameplay by the end of March. Then make terrain and publish in in the first week of April.