I've played Sotis like 20-30 games maybe and what kept Dota alive was the constant balancing. The creator of sotis hasn't balanced it continuosly. Some heroes are ridiculous in balance and some abilities very newbish like require no skill and auto kill. It also sucks when everybody chooses the strongest hero and makes stats out of it, like try playing with a support hero and getting good stats with that. Also stats can be abused if you delete a bank you can avoid any under 50% stats, yes start from 0 but better.
Whoever likes Dota, should wait for the Blizz Allstars at least it would be balanced through time.
As usual, it always helps to know a little bit more specifically what you believe felt wierd about it :)
Yeah sorry, i dont really know, I think its a mixture of the controls and Terrain textures. I do remember they felt very odd as well.
as for the heroes Meh, I think it would have been cooler if each hero was like the Uberlisk where it was a super unit made out of multiple units.
Yeah sorry I cant be too useful, and remember the last time I tried it was over 9 months ago, so I'm sure a lot has changed.
The gist that I'm getting is, since most of us here are SC2 Map Makers, we tend to start hating other Map Makers because their map became popular. This is completely absurd.
That's a hell of an assumption to make. You know when you assume...you make an ass of yourself.
That's a hell of an assumption to make. You know when you assume...you make an ass of yourself.
I was gona make a post, but this pretty much summarizes it.
No hating here. I just think sotis is way bellow other mods/games etc from the genre. (I prefer CoT > Sotis. It atleast feels quite a bit different than normal dota)
That's a hell of an assumption to make. You know when you assume...you make an ass of yourself.
I'm sorry but this is currently the way I'm perceiving after reading hate messages here from time to time. Don't blame me for the things I've seen. And you know, it's quite odd to use the assume phrase in this situation, but I think it's best to stop that talk about that now.
As usual, it always helps to know a little bit more specifically what you believe felt wierd about it :)
What do you expect people to say? Your map is a clone of All-Stars on WC3 and DOTA 2. It follows the same formula as those maps and LoL/HoN. Most people would just rather go play those maps than play a map that feels like a square peg being put into a round hole, in terms of how the game fits the Starcraft II engine and interface. All-Stars clones fit best on WC3 and will always fit best there. Your editing talent is clear but you're putting it to waste trying to create a map that already exists on engines more suited for it.
SC2's engine was an opportunity to do something completely new with the genre, such as the Merc system you guys started out with, or using Hero Classes and Talent Trees for the hero classes themselves (as opposed to passive bonuses), using Capture Points on the map (as the UI to do that is much better in SC2), or any other addition.
The "Pick a Hero who has 3 regular abilities, an Ultimate, and a Stats booster and kill as many heroes as you can" formula is terrible and your map follows that mold to a tee. Blizzard DOTA is even following the 3 skills/Ultimate model, but their stats are different, their item system is different, and most importantly, they're innovating by adding the Tower ammo system, capture points on the map, and throwing in Support/Healing heroes as well as Siege heroes. They're doing ten times more to innovate the genre than any map editor has so far on SC2, and that's honestly embarrassing.
Keep SotiS for what it is, but honestly I'd take your mapping talents and create something completely new, because at this point, it is what it is, and there's no way SotiS can be appropriately changed to appease the vast amount of people that don't like it. Is your time really best spent updating a map that's already a clone of a bunch of others and will never reach their apex? Make something new. Innovate...
You're right about the innovation part. The SC2 engine was an opportunity to do something new, but look at the outcome of it. Almost everything on the front page has been done before. Innovation is cool, but the benefit is a risky path to take. Sure games like Mafia or Star Battle is new, but think about the many other mapmakers out there that tried getting to the top by creating something new. Lastly, I also don't think it's wise to drop a popular project, especially when it's been worked on for 2-3 years. Plus, there will always be new players trying out the game.
Alright, so here we go. Veteran LoL player by now, keep that into account. Gonna give a bit of a play-by-play account of what happened in the match I just played; the idea is that you see what draws my attention in the map and how I go through the process of giving it a whirl.
1) I go into a game. Team 1 is already full. While I'm waiting for folks, I check the map description and notice something slightly sloppy; the description cuts off. There's something about "two teams battle in the jungle of the imperial" and then nothing. No biggie, but I've already ruled out a possible A+ rating in my mind.
2) Game starts. Loading screen seems pretty cool. One player immediately disconnects after loading and we're playing a 4v5.
3) I get whacked in the face by the starting screen. The UI of the hero selection screen looks really purdy, but there's a bunch of heroes with dots between their first and last names instead of spaces, seperate pages, talents, all sorts of random shit. I don't have any time to read up on virtually any of it since the game starts in a minute. I decide to grab a tanky strength hero as those are generally easier to play - means I'm less likely to do terrible. My allies immediately shout something about noobs going bot. Some people are yelling at eachother but I really have no idea who's on who'se team or such. I decide I don't care and take the bot lane with my viking hero, along with someone who's playing... a black-coloured nightelf?
4) We face an Abberation and... a model I didn't even recognize or can't quite recall. I still have no idea what their exact abilities were, just that they had damage. The Abberation seemed to spawn zombies around him in a circle, but the zombies didn't have a health bar, which was fairly annoying. Then at one other point I saw his zombies chase him or randomly stand in the jungle, making me even more unsure about the hero. What exactly does the zombie spell do?
5) My ally goes in like a maniac... enemies fall for it and I kill one of them and get first blood. Still not sure how or what happened, I just used my Q ability which shoots a bunch of rockets.
6) As we're laning I'm letting my partner get all the last hits: I'll have an easier time and he can play better lateron. His character seems to be an assassin and I figure he can use the money to get ahead early. I do fiddle with my abilities a bit before I decide I'm really going to need the hotkeys, even at this level where I have just one or two abilities. I notice the hotkeys are on the WASD keys, which means I'm shafted as a lefty using the arrow keys to move his camera. Nothing new there though, this happens in most games.
7) At one point I need to go back to base. I've seen my ally teleport a couple of times back and forth, but I don't seem to have a teleport. Does it exist? What is the hotkey? Do I need to buy a scroll or something? I return and buy some more of the recommended items in the list. It actually takes me a minute to figure out where to buy the actual items: when I started off I just double clicked my first recommended item (which was a recipe) in the same way to how I did it in LoL and that worked. This time however, I don't have money for the full recipe and so have to spend a couple of seconds looking around for stuff to buy. As I buy three small items needed for my next recipe, I head down the bottom lane again.
8) We engage in a 2v2 again. The Abberation teleports towards my ally and hits him, my ally... does something, and eventually dies. I'm running away and turn back to shoot a bit - I've got a grey area in my health bar which I figure to be some kind of shield. I die with the grey area still intact. Still no clue what happened.
9) A window pops up saying 'waiting for server'. I wait a minute and then surrender after 15-20 minutes of playtime.
This random match kind of corresponds fairly well with my previous encounters of SOTIS. There's just SO MUCH SHIT. Again - I'm a fairly veteran LoL player (and even played the original DOTA before that) and I have NO idea what half of my stuff does. Ability tooltips are so HUGELY detailed that there's no time to read them. Using an ability a couple of times usually gives me a good idea what it does, though. The healthbars aren't as fugly as they were before, but now there's the grey thingie that does god-knows-what. Apparently I'm also playing in a team, but I wouldn't really say that as I have no real way of keeping track of my allies other than the minimap. Which can be vague as hell thanks to some of the colours used.
I recognize that the map has been updated and improved, but I can assure you that this experience is completely representative of how I've felt in every single game of SOTIS. It's not that I don't mind doing some reading or playing around to learn a new map, but everything still seems completely random. My screen is filled to the BRIM with doodles and dongles and it's absolutely impossible to gain any sort of overview over the situation. I don't even know where to begin with figuring out stuff. I guess the balance might be better as I didn't have Tiberius Rancor owning everyone on the map anymore, but the main problem keeps coming back to the fact that I have NO IDEA what's going on. Even in my first LoL game I could tell stuff apart.
This write-up might be just as muddy and strange as what the map feels like to me, but it does seem to represent my experiences with SOTIS fairly accurately. I can't really say whether it's "good" or "bad" because I feel like I'd simply need to take a week off to figure out how to play the map even semi effectively. And even then it's hard to keep track of what exactly is going on. I feel like even with just 9 heroes, no talents and less detailed tooltips I'd still have a hard time keeping track of everything that's going on at any given moment. The feeling of 'awareness' that came naturally in DOTA and LoL is just... not there.
I can't really say whether it's "good" or "bad" because I feel like I'd simply need to take a week off to figure out how to play the map even semi effectively.
I didn't say my point was going to be new - I've said that before =P
Really just wanted to give eckol a play-by-play experience to point out why exactly it feels akward and uncomfortable. Kara has a point too. I think the problem kind of is that you've basically recreated LoL inside a SC2 map, but even past that stuff is just too hazy. Like I mentioned in my previous post; if you were to remove all sorts of options (talents, detailed tooltips, heroes) and put them in a screen outside the map itself (like LoL does), I'd still feel like I had no oversight and simply couldn't keep track of what's going on. Even if I did know all the heroes involved in the game and their abilities.
I'm sorry but this is currently the way I'm perceiving after reading hate messages here from time to time. Don't blame me for the things I've seen. And you know, it's quite odd to use the assume phrase in this situation, but I think it's best to stop that talk about that now.
I don't know what kind of things you have been hearing, but please do not assume all mapmakers hate other mapmakers. Quite simply, your absolute hardest critics will be found here. Forgive this horrible analogy, but I think it is true. If there was a dwarf with a thick braided beard amongst say, a bunch of elves/humans who shave every day, his beard might easily be called rugged, nicely styled among a bunch of people who don't really know a thing about it. However when the dwarf arrives down at the dwarvish pub, the other dwarves might point out the braids aren't done quite right, that his beard isn't wide/long enough, he doesn't have near enough beer smell to his beard, that he could be mistaken for sober at any time with such an unbeered beard.
All I'm saying is, we are as hard on others maps as we are on our own, but try not to take it personal, it doesn't mean we hate you or your map, at least it sure doesn't for me. And sorry again for the horrible dwarf analogy....
lol, nah but seriously Sotis's biggest downfall is the fact that there is a stand alone free to play game on another platform, and once Blizzard All stars comes out, you will loose the little bit of public you have. my suggestion?
ABANDON BOAT, start working on another project and prepare for the inevitable that sotis isnt going to survive around Blizzards Dota, because they will have more money, time, resources(models), experience, and they wont have to deal with the Map size limit like everyone else. they can just put it in a patch.
So I wouldnt try to compete with them, because 95% chance your going to loose, I am not saying dont support your map, I am saying I would start working on a new project.
Well obviously S.O.T.I.S. is going to get a remake with the new DOTA, and even campaign models that are going to be released as well as DOTA UI assets. In the HOTS update they need more game play mechanics. For example maybe a attackers vs. defenders mode. Where one team defends positions on the map while the opposite team tries to destroy objectives. Or perhaps even capture the flag. Hopefully with the update the map limitations will be increased as well :3. I wouldn't say S.O.T.I.S will just die.... all they need to do is revamp the game and adapt to survive. @Tainted Wisp... your a hater :p
I wonder if Blizzards will have leagues and ladders in HOTS..... that would be sweet...
I thought they're also planning to add matchmaking for custom maps? Lastly, I don't think Blizzard DotA will be on the Custom Map list. It should have its own section. Otherwise, they're really competing with the custom map community, (at least with SotIS) which is pretty messed up.
As usual, it always helps to know a little bit more specifically what you believe felt wierd about it :)
I've played Sotis like 20-30 games maybe and what kept Dota alive was the constant balancing. The creator of sotis hasn't balanced it continuosly. Some heroes are ridiculous in balance and some abilities very newbish like require no skill and auto kill. It also sucks when everybody chooses the strongest hero and makes stats out of it, like try playing with a support hero and getting good stats with that. Also stats can be abused if you delete a bank you can avoid any under 50% stats, yes start from 0 but better.
Whoever likes Dota, should wait for the Blizz Allstars at least it would be balanced through time.
Yeah sorry, i dont really know, I think its a mixture of the controls and Terrain textures. I do remember they felt very odd as well. as for the heroes Meh, I think it would have been cooler if each hero was like the Uberlisk where it was a super unit made out of multiple units.
Yeah sorry I cant be too useful, and remember the last time I tried it was over 9 months ago, so I'm sure a lot has changed.
That's a hell of an assumption to make. You know when you assume...you make an ass of yourself.
I think Mine is way more accurate...
here it goes... Map makers are assholes.... including me.
I was gona make a post, but this pretty much summarizes it.
No hating here. I just think sotis is way bellow other mods/games etc from the genre. (I prefer CoT > Sotis. It atleast feels quite a bit different than normal dota)
I'll play a game later, should at least refresh my memory on why I didn't like it. Will give you a summary of what has transpired.
I'm sorry but this is currently the way I'm perceiving after reading hate messages here from time to time. Don't blame me for the things I've seen. And you know, it's quite odd to use the assume phrase in this situation, but I think it's best to stop that talk about that now.
@Taintedwisp: Go
Yeah, over 9 months ago...a lot of stuff has changed since then...
What do you expect people to say? Your map is a clone of All-Stars on WC3 and DOTA 2. It follows the same formula as those maps and LoL/HoN. Most people would just rather go play those maps than play a map that feels like a square peg being put into a round hole, in terms of how the game fits the Starcraft II engine and interface. All-Stars clones fit best on WC3 and will always fit best there. Your editing talent is clear but you're putting it to waste trying to create a map that already exists on engines more suited for it.
SC2's engine was an opportunity to do something completely new with the genre, such as the Merc system you guys started out with, or using Hero Classes and Talent Trees for the hero classes themselves (as opposed to passive bonuses), using Capture Points on the map (as the UI to do that is much better in SC2), or any other addition.
The "Pick a Hero who has 3 regular abilities, an Ultimate, and a Stats booster and kill as many heroes as you can" formula is terrible and your map follows that mold to a tee. Blizzard DOTA is even following the 3 skills/Ultimate model, but their stats are different, their item system is different, and most importantly, they're innovating by adding the Tower ammo system, capture points on the map, and throwing in Support/Healing heroes as well as Siege heroes. They're doing ten times more to innovate the genre than any map editor has so far on SC2, and that's honestly embarrassing.
Keep SotiS for what it is, but honestly I'd take your mapping talents and create something completely new, because at this point, it is what it is, and there's no way SotiS can be appropriately changed to appease the vast amount of people that don't like it. Is your time really best spent updating a map that's already a clone of a bunch of others and will never reach their apex? Make something new. Innovate...
@saltygrapes: Go
You're right about the innovation part. The SC2 engine was an opportunity to do something new, but look at the outcome of it. Almost everything on the front page has been done before. Innovation is cool, but the benefit is a risky path to take. Sure games like Mafia or Star Battle is new, but think about the many other mapmakers out there that tried getting to the top by creating something new. Lastly, I also don't think it's wise to drop a popular project, especially when it's been worked on for 2-3 years. Plus, there will always be new players trying out the game.
Alright, so here we go. Veteran LoL player by now, keep that into account. Gonna give a bit of a play-by-play account of what happened in the match I just played; the idea is that you see what draws my attention in the map and how I go through the process of giving it a whirl.
1) I go into a game. Team 1 is already full. While I'm waiting for folks, I check the map description and notice something slightly sloppy; the description cuts off. There's something about "two teams battle in the jungle of the imperial" and then nothing. No biggie, but I've already ruled out a possible A+ rating in my mind.
2) Game starts. Loading screen seems pretty cool. One player immediately disconnects after loading and we're playing a 4v5.
3) I get whacked in the face by the starting screen. The UI of the hero selection screen looks really purdy, but there's a bunch of heroes with dots between their first and last names instead of spaces, seperate pages, talents, all sorts of random shit. I don't have any time to read up on virtually any of it since the game starts in a minute. I decide to grab a tanky strength hero as those are generally easier to play - means I'm less likely to do terrible. My allies immediately shout something about noobs going bot. Some people are yelling at eachother but I really have no idea who's on who'se team or such. I decide I don't care and take the bot lane with my viking hero, along with someone who's playing... a black-coloured nightelf?
4) We face an Abberation and... a model I didn't even recognize or can't quite recall. I still have no idea what their exact abilities were, just that they had damage. The Abberation seemed to spawn zombies around him in a circle, but the zombies didn't have a health bar, which was fairly annoying. Then at one other point I saw his zombies chase him or randomly stand in the jungle, making me even more unsure about the hero. What exactly does the zombie spell do?
5) My ally goes in like a maniac... enemies fall for it and I kill one of them and get first blood. Still not sure how or what happened, I just used my Q ability which shoots a bunch of rockets.
6) As we're laning I'm letting my partner get all the last hits: I'll have an easier time and he can play better lateron. His character seems to be an assassin and I figure he can use the money to get ahead early. I do fiddle with my abilities a bit before I decide I'm really going to need the hotkeys, even at this level where I have just one or two abilities. I notice the hotkeys are on the WASD keys, which means I'm shafted as a lefty using the arrow keys to move his camera. Nothing new there though, this happens in most games.
7) At one point I need to go back to base. I've seen my ally teleport a couple of times back and forth, but I don't seem to have a teleport. Does it exist? What is the hotkey? Do I need to buy a scroll or something? I return and buy some more of the recommended items in the list. It actually takes me a minute to figure out where to buy the actual items: when I started off I just double clicked my first recommended item (which was a recipe) in the same way to how I did it in LoL and that worked. This time however, I don't have money for the full recipe and so have to spend a couple of seconds looking around for stuff to buy. As I buy three small items needed for my next recipe, I head down the bottom lane again.
8) We engage in a 2v2 again. The Abberation teleports towards my ally and hits him, my ally... does something, and eventually dies. I'm running away and turn back to shoot a bit - I've got a grey area in my health bar which I figure to be some kind of shield. I die with the grey area still intact. Still no clue what happened.
9) A window pops up saying 'waiting for server'. I wait a minute and then surrender after 15-20 minutes of playtime.
This random match kind of corresponds fairly well with my previous encounters of SOTIS. There's just SO MUCH SHIT. Again - I'm a fairly veteran LoL player (and even played the original DOTA before that) and I have NO idea what half of my stuff does. Ability tooltips are so HUGELY detailed that there's no time to read them. Using an ability a couple of times usually gives me a good idea what it does, though. The healthbars aren't as fugly as they were before, but now there's the grey thingie that does god-knows-what. Apparently I'm also playing in a team, but I wouldn't really say that as I have no real way of keeping track of my allies other than the minimap. Which can be vague as hell thanks to some of the colours used.
I recognize that the map has been updated and improved, but I can assure you that this experience is completely representative of how I've felt in every single game of SOTIS. It's not that I don't mind doing some reading or playing around to learn a new map, but everything still seems completely random. My screen is filled to the BRIM with doodles and dongles and it's absolutely impossible to gain any sort of overview over the situation. I don't even know where to begin with figuring out stuff. I guess the balance might be better as I didn't have Tiberius Rancor owning everyone on the map anymore, but the main problem keeps coming back to the fact that I have NO IDEA what's going on. Even in my first LoL game I could tell stuff apart.
This write-up might be just as muddy and strange as what the map feels like to me, but it does seem to represent my experiences with SOTIS fairly accurately. I can't really say whether it's "good" or "bad" because I feel like I'd simply need to take a week off to figure out how to play the map even semi effectively. And even then it's hard to keep track of what exactly is going on. I feel like even with just 9 heroes, no talents and less detailed tooltips I'd still have a hard time keeping track of everything that's going on at any given moment. The feeling of 'awareness' that came naturally in DOTA and LoL is just... not there.
@Mozared: Go
Welcome to, hopefully, the reason Blizzard DOTA will exist.
Then it's bad.
@Mozared: Go
soo like I have said several times... Awkward and Uncomfortable...
I didn't say my point was going to be new - I've said that before =P
Really just wanted to give eckol a play-by-play experience to point out why exactly it feels akward and uncomfortable. Kara has a point too. I think the problem kind of is that you've basically recreated LoL inside a SC2 map, but even past that stuff is just too hazy. Like I mentioned in my previous post; if you were to remove all sorts of options (talents, detailed tooltips, heroes) and put them in a screen outside the map itself (like LoL does), I'd still feel like I had no oversight and simply couldn't keep track of what's going on. Even if I did know all the heroes involved in the game and their abilities.
@tacticmove: Go
I don't know what kind of things you have been hearing, but please do not assume all mapmakers hate other mapmakers. Quite simply, your absolute hardest critics will be found here. Forgive this horrible analogy, but I think it is true. If there was a dwarf with a thick braided beard amongst say, a bunch of elves/humans who shave every day, his beard might easily be called rugged, nicely styled among a bunch of people who don't really know a thing about it. However when the dwarf arrives down at the dwarvish pub, the other dwarves might point out the braids aren't done quite right, that his beard isn't wide/long enough, he doesn't have near enough beer smell to his beard, that he could be mistaken for sober at any time with such an unbeered beard.
All I'm saying is, we are as hard on others maps as we are on our own, but try not to take it personal, it doesn't mean we hate you or your map, at least it sure doesn't for me. And sorry again for the horrible dwarf analogy....
@Deadzergling: Go
Well not me, I just hate you guys. :D
HATE HATE HATE HATE!!!
lol, nah but seriously Sotis's biggest downfall is the fact that there is a stand alone free to play game on another platform, and once Blizzard All stars comes out, you will loose the little bit of public you have. my suggestion?
ABANDON BOAT, start working on another project and prepare for the inevitable that sotis isnt going to survive around Blizzards Dota, because they will have more money, time, resources(models), experience, and they wont have to deal with the Map size limit like everyone else. they can just put it in a patch.
So I wouldnt try to compete with them, because 95% chance your going to loose, I am not saying dont support your map, I am saying I would start working on a new project.
Well obviously S.O.T.I.S. is going to get a remake with the new DOTA, and even campaign models that are going to be released as well as DOTA UI assets. In the HOTS update they need more game play mechanics. For example maybe a attackers vs. defenders mode. Where one team defends positions on the map while the opposite team tries to destroy objectives. Or perhaps even capture the flag. Hopefully with the update the map limitations will be increased as well :3. I wouldn't say S.O.T.I.S will just die.... all they need to do is revamp the game and adapt to survive. @Tainted Wisp... your a hater :p
I wonder if Blizzards will have leagues and ladders in HOTS..... that would be sweet...
@michaelknives: Go
hahahahaha I knew you were a fanboy the second you went all defensive when I said sotis sucked.
But yes, Blizzard DOTA will have its own ladder and matchmaking.
@saltygrapes: Go
Is that suppose to be a way to discredit someone?
I thought they're also planning to add matchmaking for custom maps? Lastly, I don't think Blizzard DotA will be on the Custom Map list. It should have its own section. Otherwise, they're really competing with the custom map community, (at least with SotIS) which is pretty messed up.