Yep. Everything you said is true. The only person in this whole thread that supports this is...Sixen:/. Yet, We the Sc2 Mapster members, clearly do not approve:/
Also, We all know locking a map completely will be impossible. It just wont ever happen. There will always be a way to unlock it. So isn`t it best to keep those underground secrets...secret?
This isn`t Starcraft 1. This is Starcraft 2 where maps can take months to develop. Not 20 minutes -_-
I really feel like resigning as a Mod because of this thread. I dont feel proud being a mod due to this thing being supported. I just cant stand it. It goes against my principles.
@Sixen: GoThis is rediculous... It's not about open source vs closed source. The person who made this map does not want people to see how he put it together and that should be respected amongst this community. Just because someone can use a few hacky techniques to unlock a map doesn't mean that anyone releasing a map to the public must accept that they no longer have a right to deny access to their work.
Just because Blizzard's current method of locking is inadequate shouldn't give this forum the right to open up other peoples work. As I said before, I have nothing against sharing work in order to benefit the community. If someone wants to keep a lid on a certain technique they are using inside their map we shouldn't be pasting it all over the forum.
Sure, there is nothing we can do about locked maps but that is no reason to encourage it by allowing this thread to sit on the forum. What would you do if the creator came on here and requested that he wants this post removed? Would you say no? The creator has already told us that he does not want his work to be public by locking his map.
Everything you just said is an argument for OS vs CS mapping. The reality of it is, maps are not locked. Regardless of whether or not you want your map to be seen, it can be. Just because you say, "Please don't open it." doesn't mean people will listen. Maps have never been locked before and they still aren't. If that person wants to keep the lid on their techniques, the only way they can possibly do that is by not releasing their map.
I'm not encouraging anything. I already talked to ekcol. If he messaged me again and said, "actually, can you remove it?" I would by all means, remove it. I'd be more than happy to respect the authors wishes. But that doesn't stop anyone from opening his map and looking at it. It only stops people from posting an unlocked version of his map on my website. Obviously if someone were to steal a map and we have proof of it, we would kill any chances that person has at publicizing their stolen version. But again, there is nothing stopping someone from opening a map. It has nothing to do with SC2Mapster.
What is it that you guys want to argue?
Maps aren't locked. There is nothing to argue there.
People don't want their maps to be locked? Then they shouldn't post their maps publicly. There's nothing to argue there either.
Back in the days of SC1, the difference was that there was no "lock option" by default. People created Map Protectors... Then someone else developed a Map Unprotector. In this case, Blizzard developed the Protector and someone found a way to bypass the protection without developing an unprotector.
Once your map is public, anyone can access it. This has nothing to do with myself, it has nothing to do with SC2Mapster, it has nothing to do with morale or ethics. It's a fact. I'm sure vjeux will agree with me on this, our stance is that OS Mapping is good. People can learn from it. Stealing maps won't be tolerated, just like we haven't tolerated it in the past.
Nothing has changed. Things have been the same since the Beta went live.
So, why is it okay for him to post instructions on how to bypass the protections used to lock maps, but its wrong to post links to say nocd cracks for the game. What is the difference, exactly? I mean if blizzard doesn't want people to get at the game for free they shouldn't have released it, right? We both know there is a genuine difference here, but you're coming across like there isn't and its completely ethical and okay to reverse engineer people's work against their wishes and do things with it against their wishes, ie "because there is no way to 100% lock a map then its okay to crack the locks that exist". So yah, there is a double-standard here and that's I think what has us upset.
I would have never learned to make program, years ago, if I didn't open up some source code of another app and see how they did certain things. If someone wants to steal a map, there's nothing stopping them. That is not what I am talking about though. The point here is to learn from others.
You didn't learn to program by reverse engineering someone else's software. You learned by looking at source code that someone released to the public in order to help other people learn. The point is that the person who wrote that source code chose to do so. I'm all for open source, and if not for Blizzard's popularity system being incredibly vulnerable to map stealing I'd release my unlocked map in a heartbeat (in fact I still plan to eventually.) But forcing people to make their maps open is not cool; the author should have some choice in the matter.
As for the other argument (security) - yes, map locking is not secure; at best, it is security through obscurity. If your intention is to show that maps can be unlocked in order to force Blizzard to design a better locking scheme then just post a demo map that you locked and then broke as a proof of concept that it can be done and Blizzard needs to get on it. Unlike software which can be patched for vulnerabilities, even if Blizzard in the next patch were to implement a more secure locking scheme, existing copies of maps would still be vulnerable.
Anyway it's coming down to this: you can either come down on the side of the people who are actually creating popular, finished maps, or you can come down on the side of people who want to use other people's work without authorization. Some of them will use it purely for learning purposes but many will simply steal parts wholesale without any credit given, and a few will steal maps outright, exploiting the popularity system. Do you really want your website to be on the side of those people? As someone who has spent a lot of time here, virtually all of it trying to be as helpful as possible, I am not sure that I would want to continue to post here if I didn't feel that the owners of this site respected my wishes and those of other established members of the community who have produced the majority of popular and well-received SC2 maps enough to stay at the very least neutral on this issue.
edit: To clarify I don't think this thread should be deleted and I don't even mind discussion on how to unlock maps and how the locking system could be improved. I just think 1) publishing an unlocked version of someone else's map should be a bannable offense (fine with giving this guy a warning, just for the future) and 2) mods should not news or go out of their way to publicize any step-by-step guides on how to break the locking scheme.
So, why is it okay for him to post instructions on how to bypass the protections used to lock maps, but its wrong to post links to say nocd cracks for the game. What is the difference, exactly? I mean if blizzard doesn't want people to get at the game for free they shouldn't have released it, right? We both know there is a genuine difference here, but you're coming across like there isn't and its completely ethical and okay to reverse engineer people's work against their wishes and do things with it against their wishes, ie "because there is no way to 100% lock a map then its okay to crack the locks that exist". So yah, there is a double-standard here and that's I think what has us upset.
There is a genuine difference and there is no comparison here.
You didn't learn to program by reverse engineering someone else's software. You learned by looking at source code that someone released to the public in order to help other people learn. The point is that the person who wrote that source code chose to do so. I'm all for open source, and if not for Blizzard's popularity system being incredibly vulnerable to map stealing I'd release my unlocked map in a heartbeat (in fact I still plan to eventually.) But forcing people to make their maps open is not cool; the author should have some choice in the matter.
As for the other argument (security) - yes, map locking is not secure; at best, it is security through obscurity. If your intention is to show that maps can be unlocked in order to force Blizzard to design a better locking scheme then just post a demo map that you locked and then broke as a proof of concept that it can be done and Blizzard needs to get on it. Unlike software which can be patched for vulnerabilities, even if Blizzard in the next patch were to implement a more secure locking scheme, existing copies of maps would still be vulnerable.
Anyway it's coming down to this: you can either come down on the side of the people who are actually creating popular, finished maps, or you can come down on the side of people who want to use other people's work without authorization. Some of them will use it purely for learning purposes but many will simply steal parts wholesale without any credit given, and a few will steal maps outright, exploiting the popularity system. Do you really want your website to be on the side of those people? As someone who has spent a lot of time here, virtually all of it trying to be as helpful as possible, I am not sure that I would want to continue to post here if I didn't feel that the owners of this site respected my wishes and those of other established members of the community who have produced the majority of popular and well-received SC2 maps enough to stay at the very least neutral on this issue.
edit: To clarify I don't think this thread should be deleted and I don't even mind discussion on how to unlock maps and how the locking system could be improved. I just think 1) publishing an unlocked version of someone else's map should be a bannable offense (fine with giving this guy a warning, just for the future) and 2) mods should not news or go out of their way to publicize any step-by-step guides on how to break the locking scheme.
I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. Not sure why people keep saying that. Do whatever you want, I don't care what you do. The point is, your map isn't locked no matter what you do.
1) I'm not going to ban someone for doing nothing wrong. If the author requests to have it taken down, it will be taken down. The author doesn't care, why should I?
2) It isn't really my problem that Blizzard's locking scheme doesn't work. By newsing it, it lets the public know a few things...
Publishing your map locked is useless.
People can learn from other maps.
Someone (or Blizzard) will come up with a fullproof lock method.
It seems like the general problem is that SotiS is posted here. That's not really your problem, and the author doesn't care. Why does everyone else? I don't see how this has anything to do with us respecting anyones wishes? Why do you keep saying that?
The argument here is OS vs CS. It has nothing to do with respecting wishes of authors, it has nothing to do with people's maps getting posted publicly. Nothing. This argument is OS vs CS. I don't care that ekcol's map was posted because he doesn't care. The fact that SotiS was posted means absolutely nothing, so there's no reason to bring it up.
It seems like the general problem is that SotiS is posted here.
The argument here is OS vs CS.
Not really..
The problem isn`t that Sotis is posted here, but rather the instructions how to unlock. So Sotis itself being posted here is of no consequence since we are already now equipped with the knowledge to hack it. Understand what I mean?
It has everything to do with respecting the privacy of authors. Meaning if I dont want you to open my map, even if it means to learn something, then NO you cant open it. I dont care about this open source argument, and I hate the fact you bring it up all the time. You are not a map maker, So you cant seem to understand this. Map making in Starcraft 1 does not count at all.
And you should know Sixen. Most people are DUMB. The average person does NOT know how to unlock maps!. Heck, before reading this thread, I did not even have a solid idea on how to unlock a map. But now I do!, and I am by no means a noob when it come to software/internet/etc etc.
So NO. Most people dont know about this.
Im disappointed in the way you are dealing with this. Normally, you are very reasonable and logical, but here you just seem...arrogant. You completely disregarded everything that all the posters here have said.
And who is the OP?. Is he your friend or something?. This all seems very strange.
Edit: Full proof protection from Blizzard will NEVER happen. We must always keep secret and safeguard what little protection we have.
If eckol doesn't have a problem with his map being unlocked that's a different story. Unfortunately you only mentioned that about 15 posts into this thread. We should always be under the assumption that an author would like his locked map to remain that way.
As for the current points...
Maps ARE locked. Why do you keep saying there is no map locking. Just because the system is not immune to unlocking does not mean it does not exsist. The lock function is OBIVOUSLY present with the intent of hiding content from prying eyes and, just because it is not 100% full proof, does not legitimise bypassing it. Would you argue that cracked software has no copy protection simply because is is capable of being cracked?
I'm not going to get into the rest of it because it has already been argued back and forth a number of times. However RileyStarcraft put is perfectly, there are two sides to this and it comes down to which you support. The authors who lock their maps to keep their work hidden, or the people who unlock them without authorisation to use their work. It's apparent from this thread which side the people running this community fall on. Pity, can't say I feel much like contributing to such a group.
is it to show THAT maps can be unlocked easiely or HOW to do it?
and why is there an unlocked map in the attachments if the author didnt fully agree with it? if you want to demonstrate that unlocking is possible you could have at least used your own map or a map of a creator that agreed with it.
i think its quite clear that blizzards protection can be unlocked quite easiely, blizzard knows about it so where is the use of posing a guide how to do it in MAPPING forum? its not a really good idea to show every nub how to do it.
what we need are extern tools for better protection (like map optimizer in wc3) or a better protection by blizzard themselfes, but what we DONT need is a guide how to unprotect a map and an unlocked map in the attachments, accecable for every nub out there.
what we need are extern tools for better protection (like map optimizer in wc3) or a better protection by blizzard themselfes, but what we DONT need is a guide how to unprotect a map and an unlocked map in the attachments, accecable for every nub out there.
Give me a map that got wc3optimized and 3 minutes later I can give you a map that's unprotected again.
Neither Sc2's nor Wc3's maps have ever been save from hacking.
And I don't have any problem if someone opens a map and checks out how it's done. In fact, I did it a few times in Warcraft myself.
But this also enables people to steal parts of or the entire map, and this is something that should be delayed at all cost (it can't be stopped anyway).
But in the end Sixen is something like our foreman.
There is a genuine difference and there is no comparison here.
Okay then, what is the ethical difference between posting instructions on how to bypass the Blizzard map locking system and posting instructions on how to bypass the Blizzard copyright system?
ED: Also considering OP's obviously sockpuppet-account type and post count, I'm pretty sure even he's got a better understanding of how this can piss off the map making community.
Further ED: So there's also nothing wrong with say me posting a link in the blizzard forums to this thread and saying that SC2mapster will show you how to break the locks on Blizzard's map system? Because you know if nothing is wrong with this sort of thing then that's pretty much what I intend to do. If the goal is to force blizzard to create a stronger lock system well that's about the best way to apply the pressure, right? Wait on second thought I'd rather not get banned, why don't you do it Sixen?
What I think is weird, is that Blizzard's mapprotection do work... for their own maps.
Well, at least when it comes to open it via b.net via the editor, everything gets in a sort of readonly mode. Even resaving the map modified on your local computer will erase everything you modified and restore the original map in the saved file. But then again, opening it through Ladik's or any other mpq editor could probably bypass that.
Would not Blizzard just bypass the unlocking issue by adding a checksum hash for all maps (if they didn't do this already). If they have the algorithm and does not share it, and uses it together with a so called method of operation, it would take quite some more time to develop a tutorial.
Back to your debate:
I would ask you what the point of even have project uploaded here with a "license" explained on the facts page, when the site as well seems to now have tutorials of how to break these licenses. That just don't add up.
Would not Blizzard just bypass the unlocking issue by adding a checksum hash for all maps (if they didn't do this already). If they have the algorithm and does not share it, and uses it together with a so called method of operation, it would take quite some more time to develop a tutorial.
How'd that help exactly? How could this stop me opening the map, modifying it and reuploading it as my own (maybe under different name). Of course, the hashsum would be different, but it would be treated as a completely different map.
If I understand it right I think he's suggesting they use the encryption half of an archiving process, which I think would make a lot of sense. Just those pesky 'sending encrypted data into several dozen countries and how they all deal with that' thing is in the way I bet. I mean imagine if maps were transferred as encrypted files instead that were opened on the fly by the client as it read them into memory. Sure the reverse engineering then becomes a matter of finding the spot in memory where that key is determined on the client side but then you have them clearly screwing with the program's memory which well...if they'd also then go and make the executables for the game and editor 64bit...bah that's now a pipe dream due to all the old hardware being used to play.
Back to your debate: I would ask you what the point of even have project uploaded here with a "license" explained on the facts page, when the site as well seems to now have tutorials of how to break these licenses. That just don't add up.
Yeah, Technically there is no debate actually. Sixen`s word seems to be law. This thread is dumb and should be deleted. Sixen having this here is just doing terrible terrible damage to the site`s reputation.
Ive lost my interest. Helping noobs to the point of virtually DOING our own maps(which takes a very long time), and letting them have their way with it, just sucks.
We should create a sub forum. With all the cool maps hacked and opened hmm?. Lets make it one step easier for them?. Why not?
Mile25 is working on a cool Rpg. You think he wants people to know how to open his map?. Im pretty sure not. That includes the rest of us.
Just a note, this doesn't help new mappers as anyone opening up this file in the editor will see more clutter and nonsensical crap then they know what to do with. You have to already have a decent understanding of the editor to even understand what you are looking at just to make any use of it. The reality is that if you know what you're looking at here then you probably already know how to make it on your own. Specifics you can most often simply ask about and don't need to shred open a secure file to see. I've never met a mapper who wasn't honored in being asked how they did something cool.
From my experience this kind of method of "learning" is only ever useful if the author has done something truly unusual and refuses to share with the community. However, that almost never happens.
The way blizzard map works is not protect, its merely applying a property on map called "blizzard signed map" that none of us can replicate. Blizzard signed map can make use of restricted native function. Other than that, I can open them just fine, no protection intended.
Also no pun/offense/argue intended. Just passing the knowledge.
Edit: Also anther things to note on. Locked map by definition and by warning of blizzard is that you have to back it up since you cant open a locked map later in the editor. Nothing protective is mentioned.
(I''m staying neutral, sixen might have broken some shit, but it does make sense how bullshit this locking thing is)
You can open Blizzard maps, I am aware of that so perhaps I should not call that part "locked", but last time I tried I saw no way of altering it. If you open a Blizzard map, alter it and test it, it is fine. but if you try to save it, that's where it goes wrong, since all it does it to restore the map as it originally was making everything you customly altered to be gone.
So instead, why would they not add this "signed map" method for users? I know it would not prevent people from learning from your map, but it would prevent anyone from altering it.
Wouldn't stop someone from copy/pasting the triggers and data adjustments whole-sale to a new map. You could probably also just copy/paste the contents of the raw mpq file to a new map that you wanted as well and get around it too.
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Why can't we just use a hash code for accessing the map? I wonder if we can implement our own locking software.
@Kalekin: Go
Yep. Everything you said is true. The only person in this whole thread that supports this is...Sixen:/. Yet, We the Sc2 Mapster members, clearly do not approve:/ Also, We all know locking a map completely will be impossible. It just wont ever happen. There will always be a way to unlock it. So isn`t it best to keep those underground secrets...secret?
This isn`t Starcraft 1. This is Starcraft 2 where maps can take months to develop. Not 20 minutes -_-
I really feel like resigning as a Mod because of this thread. I dont feel proud being a mod due to this thing being supported. I just cant stand it. It goes against my principles.
Everything you just said is an argument for OS vs CS mapping. The reality of it is, maps are not locked. Regardless of whether or not you want your map to be seen, it can be. Just because you say, "Please don't open it." doesn't mean people will listen. Maps have never been locked before and they still aren't. If that person wants to keep the lid on their techniques, the only way they can possibly do that is by not releasing their map.
I'm not encouraging anything. I already talked to ekcol. If he messaged me again and said, "actually, can you remove it?" I would by all means, remove it. I'd be more than happy to respect the authors wishes. But that doesn't stop anyone from opening his map and looking at it. It only stops people from posting an unlocked version of his map on my website. Obviously if someone were to steal a map and we have proof of it, we would kill any chances that person has at publicizing their stolen version. But again, there is nothing stopping someone from opening a map. It has nothing to do with SC2Mapster.
What is it that you guys want to argue?
Back in the days of SC1, the difference was that there was no "lock option" by default. People created Map Protectors... Then someone else developed a Map Unprotector. In this case, Blizzard developed the Protector and someone found a way to bypass the protection without developing an unprotector.
Once your map is public, anyone can access it. This has nothing to do with myself, it has nothing to do with SC2Mapster, it has nothing to do with morale or ethics. It's a fact. I'm sure vjeux will agree with me on this, our stance is that OS Mapping is good. People can learn from it. Stealing maps won't be tolerated, just like we haven't tolerated it in the past.
Nothing has changed. Things have been the same since the Beta went live.
@Sixen: Go
So, why is it okay for him to post instructions on how to bypass the protections used to lock maps, but its wrong to post links to say nocd cracks for the game. What is the difference, exactly? I mean if blizzard doesn't want people to get at the game for free they shouldn't have released it, right? We both know there is a genuine difference here, but you're coming across like there isn't and its completely ethical and okay to reverse engineer people's work against their wishes and do things with it against their wishes, ie "because there is no way to 100% lock a map then its okay to crack the locks that exist". So yah, there is a double-standard here and that's I think what has us upset.
You didn't learn to program by reverse engineering someone else's software. You learned by looking at source code that someone released to the public in order to help other people learn. The point is that the person who wrote that source code chose to do so. I'm all for open source, and if not for Blizzard's popularity system being incredibly vulnerable to map stealing I'd release my unlocked map in a heartbeat (in fact I still plan to eventually.) But forcing people to make their maps open is not cool; the author should have some choice in the matter.
As for the other argument (security) - yes, map locking is not secure; at best, it is security through obscurity. If your intention is to show that maps can be unlocked in order to force Blizzard to design a better locking scheme then just post a demo map that you locked and then broke as a proof of concept that it can be done and Blizzard needs to get on it. Unlike software which can be patched for vulnerabilities, even if Blizzard in the next patch were to implement a more secure locking scheme, existing copies of maps would still be vulnerable.
Anyway it's coming down to this: you can either come down on the side of the people who are actually creating popular, finished maps, or you can come down on the side of people who want to use other people's work without authorization. Some of them will use it purely for learning purposes but many will simply steal parts wholesale without any credit given, and a few will steal maps outright, exploiting the popularity system. Do you really want your website to be on the side of those people? As someone who has spent a lot of time here, virtually all of it trying to be as helpful as possible, I am not sure that I would want to continue to post here if I didn't feel that the owners of this site respected my wishes and those of other established members of the community who have produced the majority of popular and well-received SC2 maps enough to stay at the very least neutral on this issue.
edit: To clarify I don't think this thread should be deleted and I don't even mind discussion on how to unlock maps and how the locking system could be improved. I just think 1) publishing an unlocked version of someone else's map should be a bannable offense (fine with giving this guy a warning, just for the future) and 2) mods should not news or go out of their way to publicize any step-by-step guides on how to break the locking scheme.
There is a genuine difference and there is no comparison here.
I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. Not sure why people keep saying that. Do whatever you want, I don't care what you do. The point is, your map isn't locked no matter what you do.
1) I'm not going to ban someone for doing nothing wrong. If the author requests to have it taken down, it will be taken down. The author doesn't care, why should I?
2) It isn't really my problem that Blizzard's locking scheme doesn't work. By newsing it, it lets the public know a few things...
It seems like the general problem is that SotiS is posted here. That's not really your problem, and the author doesn't care. Why does everyone else? I don't see how this has anything to do with us respecting anyones wishes? Why do you keep saying that?
The argument here is OS vs CS. It has nothing to do with respecting wishes of authors, it has nothing to do with people's maps getting posted publicly. Nothing. This argument is OS vs CS. I don't care that ekcol's map was posted because he doesn't care. The fact that SotiS was posted means absolutely nothing, so there's no reason to bring it up.
Not really..
The problem isn`t that Sotis is posted here, but rather the instructions how to unlock. So Sotis itself being posted here is of no consequence since we are already now equipped with the knowledge to hack it. Understand what I mean?
It has everything to do with respecting the privacy of authors. Meaning if I dont want you to open my map, even if it means to learn something, then NO you cant open it. I dont care about this open source argument, and I hate the fact you bring it up all the time. You are not a map maker, So you cant seem to understand this. Map making in Starcraft 1 does not count at all.
And you should know Sixen. Most people are DUMB. The average person does NOT know how to unlock maps!. Heck, before reading this thread, I did not even have a solid idea on how to unlock a map. But now I do!, and I am by no means a noob when it come to software/internet/etc etc. So NO. Most people dont know about this.
Im disappointed in the way you are dealing with this. Normally, you are very reasonable and logical, but here you just seem...arrogant. You completely disregarded everything that all the posters here have said. And who is the OP?. Is he your friend or something?. This all seems very strange.
Edit: Full proof protection from Blizzard will NEVER happen. We must always keep secret and safeguard what little protection we have.
@Sixen: Go
If eckol doesn't have a problem with his map being unlocked that's a different story. Unfortunately you only mentioned that about 15 posts into this thread. We should always be under the assumption that an author would like his locked map to remain that way.
As for the current points...
Maps ARE locked. Why do you keep saying there is no map locking. Just because the system is not immune to unlocking does not mean it does not exsist. The lock function is OBIVOUSLY present with the intent of hiding content from prying eyes and, just because it is not 100% full proof, does not legitimise bypassing it. Would you argue that cracked software has no copy protection simply because is is capable of being cracked?
I'm not going to get into the rest of it because it has already been argued back and forth a number of times. However RileyStarcraft put is perfectly, there are two sides to this and it comes down to which you support. The authors who lock their maps to keep their work hidden, or the people who unlock them without authorisation to use their work. It's apparent from this thread which side the people running this community fall on. Pity, can't say I feel much like contributing to such a group.
i dont really see the sense of this thread
is it to show THAT maps can be unlocked easiely or HOW to do it?
and why is there an unlocked map in the attachments if the author didnt fully agree with it? if you want to demonstrate that unlocking is possible you could have at least used your own map or a map of a creator that agreed with it.
i think its quite clear that blizzards protection can be unlocked quite easiely, blizzard knows about it so where is the use of posing a guide how to do it in MAPPING forum? its not a really good idea to show every nub how to do it.
what we need are extern tools for better protection (like map optimizer in wc3) or a better protection by blizzard themselfes, but what we DONT need is a guide how to unprotect a map and an unlocked map in the attachments, accecable for every nub out there.
If it was my map I would be furious. There are reasons why people lock their maps.
Give me a map that got wc3optimized and 3 minutes later I can give you a map that's unprotected again.
Neither Sc2's nor Wc3's maps have ever been save from hacking.
And I don't have any problem if someone opens a map and checks out how it's done. In fact, I did it a few times in Warcraft myself.
But this also enables people to steal parts of or the entire map, and this is something that should be delayed at all cost (it can't be stopped anyway).
But in the end Sixen is something like our foreman.
Okay then, what is the ethical difference between posting instructions on how to bypass the Blizzard map locking system and posting instructions on how to bypass the Blizzard copyright system?
ED: Also considering OP's obviously sockpuppet-account type and post count, I'm pretty sure even he's got a better understanding of how this can piss off the map making community.
Further ED: So there's also nothing wrong with say me posting a link in the blizzard forums to this thread and saying that SC2mapster will show you how to break the locks on Blizzard's map system? Because you know if nothing is wrong with this sort of thing then that's pretty much what I intend to do. If the goal is to force blizzard to create a stronger lock system well that's about the best way to apply the pressure, right? Wait on second thought I'd rather not get banned, why don't you do it Sixen?
What I think is weird, is that Blizzard's mapprotection do work... for their own maps. Well, at least when it comes to open it via b.net via the editor, everything gets in a sort of readonly mode. Even resaving the map modified on your local computer will erase everything you modified and restore the original map in the saved file. But then again, opening it through Ladik's or any other mpq editor could probably bypass that.
Would not Blizzard just bypass the unlocking issue by adding a checksum hash for all maps (if they didn't do this already). If they have the algorithm and does not share it, and uses it together with a so called method of operation, it would take quite some more time to develop a tutorial.
Back to your debate: I would ask you what the point of even have project uploaded here with a "license" explained on the facts page, when the site as well seems to now have tutorials of how to break these licenses. That just don't add up.
How'd that help exactly? How could this stop me opening the map, modifying it and reuploading it as my own (maybe under different name). Of course, the hashsum would be different, but it would be treated as a completely different map.
@s3rius: Go
If I understand it right I think he's suggesting they use the encryption half of an archiving process, which I think would make a lot of sense. Just those pesky 'sending encrypted data into several dozen countries and how they all deal with that' thing is in the way I bet. I mean imagine if maps were transferred as encrypted files instead that were opened on the fly by the client as it read them into memory. Sure the reverse engineering then becomes a matter of finding the spot in memory where that key is determined on the client side but then you have them clearly screwing with the program's memory which well...if they'd also then go and make the executables for the game and editor 64bit...bah that's now a pipe dream due to all the old hardware being used to play.
Yeah, Technically there is no debate actually. Sixen`s word seems to be law. This thread is dumb and should be deleted. Sixen having this here is just doing terrible terrible damage to the site`s reputation.
Ive lost my interest. Helping noobs to the point of virtually DOING our own maps(which takes a very long time), and letting them have their way with it, just sucks. We should create a sub forum. With all the cool maps hacked and opened hmm?. Lets make it one step easier for them?. Why not?
Mile25 is working on a cool Rpg. You think he wants people to know how to open his map?. Im pretty sure not. That includes the rest of us.
Just a note, this doesn't help new mappers as anyone opening up this file in the editor will see more clutter and nonsensical crap then they know what to do with. You have to already have a decent understanding of the editor to even understand what you are looking at just to make any use of it. The reality is that if you know what you're looking at here then you probably already know how to make it on your own. Specifics you can most often simply ask about and don't need to shred open a secure file to see. I've never met a mapper who wasn't honored in being asked how they did something cool.
From my experience this kind of method of "learning" is only ever useful if the author has done something truly unusual and refuses to share with the community. However, that almost never happens.
@Kaprisvatten: Go
The way blizzard map works is not protect, its merely applying a property on map called "blizzard signed map" that none of us can replicate. Blizzard signed map can make use of restricted native function. Other than that, I can open them just fine, no protection intended.
Also no pun/offense/argue intended. Just passing the knowledge.
Edit: Also anther things to note on. Locked map by definition and by warning of blizzard is that you have to back it up since you cant open a locked map later in the editor. Nothing protective is mentioned.
(I''m staying neutral, sixen might have broken some shit, but it does make sense how bullshit this locking thing is)
You can open Blizzard maps, I am aware of that so perhaps I should not call that part "locked", but last time I tried I saw no way of altering it. If you open a Blizzard map, alter it and test it, it is fine. but if you try to save it, that's where it goes wrong, since all it does it to restore the map as it originally was making everything you customly altered to be gone.
So instead, why would they not add this "signed map" method for users? I know it would not prevent people from learning from your map, but it would prevent anyone from altering it.
@Kaprisvatten: Go
Wouldn't stop someone from copy/pasting the triggers and data adjustments whole-sale to a new map. You could probably also just copy/paste the contents of the raw mpq file to a new map that you wanted as well and get around it too.