I don't disagree with valve's action for making an exact match of wc3 dota. HoN and LoL didn't deliever that much because of the changes they made were too much and these changes were dota's core. Of course dota needs a graphical upgrade, but HoN and LoL made it overly eyecandy and pretty in the wrong way. Much of the competitive groups of Dota bashes on HoN and LoL because they took away the elements that was suppsoed to be dota. If icefrog and valve made a complete remake of Dota, they would be able to migrate the huge playerbase of wc3 dota to their game. Lol and Hon downsized the competitivesness overall like no deny and ally's hero status on screen for the less competitive. These changes were really disliked or marked as lazy or people with no awareness in leagues.
Icefrog actually takes the community ideas in full consideration and bug fix response of 2-3 days of map releases. With him supporting, I'm pretty sure valve dota will be able to increase it's playerbase to the less competitive after the initial remake.
From what I read from that article, this game seems mostly runned by the community, like dota is
Icefrog actually takes the community ideas in full consideration and bug fix response of 2-3 days of map releases. With him supporting, I'm pretty sure valve dota will be able to increase it's playerbase to the less competitive after the initial remake.
It's been said that the mark of insanity is doing something exactly the same way and expecting a different outcome.
I believe while dota might of lengthened wc3's life, it also changed the community. The dota community is not known for being friendly.Once dota become really popular, it started flooding the custom games list, to the point where no other map could even have a chance of overcoming its popularity.
True, I can't really prove its real, Although I did find the link on Penny Arcade.
Tbh, I don't know enough about DOTA to know if the gameplay is bad(I know the core stuff, but not about the balance, heroes, items, etc) So, Im not going to judge the game itself.
Note sure why the hate for LoL, it's a great game, constantly being updated, again free but with a store that is fair. Just the fact you can play and unlock heros as you go, or just plunk down 30 bucks and go nuts in the store is awesome.
Never cared for DOTA in WC3, never felt polished really, but again it was just a mod :p
I really wish the phrase DOTA wasn't trademark, should be like King of the Hill or Capture the Flag to me, but hey whatever, trademark and copyright law is nightmare to begin with.
I really like LoL, valve is also a good company tho, and they know how to bring in a good community. Poor community is what plagued DOTA and even LoL suffers from the asshattery of elitism. We see what DOTA 2 turns out to be, but simply copying and upgrading graphics of DOTA won't sell me on their product.
If it's Dota 2, it needs to be changed so it can have the classic 5v5, and will include newer stuff to give players a twist... Not repeat the same kind of rounds over and over again.
I got bored with these kind of games not from the raging competition, but from the stupid repetitiveness...
Fuel is added to the fire when people rage quits etc.
A 8v8 "attack and defend" mode may be neat...
- Includes more players in one game.
- Promotes greater team work since the gameplay is different.
Attack and defend is just that, the defenders have to progress their armies carefully while the attackers start off with a decent army and limited resources.
Points are gained for how far you fought through the game, like if the attackers can't beat down the defender's territory in time, they lose and defender gain points.
It alternates 3 times and the rounds are fairly short, around 1020 minutes.
Note sure why the hate for LoL, it's a great game, constantly being updated, again free but with a store that is fair. Just the fact you can play and unlock heros as you go, or just plunk down 30 bucks and go nuts in the store is awesome.
Never cared for DOTA in WC3, never felt polished really, but again it was just a mod :p
I really wish the phrase DOTA wasn't trademark, should be like King of the Hill or Capture the Flag to me, but hey whatever, trademark and copyright law is nightmare to begin with.
I really like LoL, valve is also a good company tho, and they know how to bring in a good community. Poor community is what plagued DOTA and even LoL suffers from the asshattery of elitism. We see what DOTA 2 turns out to be, but simply copying and upgrading graphics of DOTA won't sell me on their product.
League of Legends is quite fun, for a community styled dota... At least you don't have elitists blaring at your ass every second.
And it really is user friendly, compared to Dota on the Wc3. It focuses on updating a lot, providing unique and fun champions, and balancing them so one is never too powerful late game...
I hated the old WC3 version and such because when it gets to late game, what happens is that your so weak that you can't even gain gold off of minions and mobs... Your at a standstill...
I hate zealot frenzy for that too... Can't get a kill when the other guys got stronger infantries that made your unit's weapons obsolete... Heck my hero does like 60 damage but for some reason deals 0 to their infantries...
The original might seem like garbage now, but when it came out in (i think) the August after War3's release i remember saying to myself "YES. YES. THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO PLAY." Compared to everything else at the time, the original DotA was spectacular.
@OneSoga:
I'm so glad people remember Eul. In my mind, DotA is his creation. When I first played Allstars after the the release of TFT, i thought it was all crappy because of the name and the horrible balance issues.
------
I kinda think it's too bad that no one played Eul's 2nd dota map. He made Dota 2: Thirst for Gamma way back in warcraft 3's prime, but no one would play it. It did crash a lot for me, but the heroes seemed more interesting, and the map wasn't so dumb simple.
------
As regards a new Icefrog Dota, it will have to be very, very good to oust LoL and HoN. I played LoL to 400ish wins and am not willing to play anything worse even if from within Sc2. SotIS just bores me.
It would be nice to see Tides of Blood and Eve of the Apocalypse too-- remade for sc2, of course. If Dota2 is really just a copy of the current war3 build of Dota, I will be very unimpressed.
That'd be Guinsoo, and he's with LoL. Although there was, before him, the RoC original by Eul (now with HoN).
That would actually be Eul, who did actually make a FT version, but it was very incomplete. Guinsoo then made the All-Stars version, one of many different versions that were made after this. All-Stars ended up being the most successful, with the newly added recipes and if I remember correctly, introduced runes. However while Guinsoo was in charge of the project, it was extremely imbalanced and had a lot of bugs. Stepping down and handing the torch to IceFrog, who then made the map 'balanced' and competitive. If it wasn't for IceFrog, DotA wouldn't have been anywhere near as popular as it is today.
In all honesty, Guinsoo needs to stop being such a prick about DotA 2, it cannot just remain so... 'Unfinished.' This is the obvious next step and when it launches, here is my predictions as a person who has followed DotA since RoC:
The HoN community is about 90% DotA die-hards. I suspect that the entire percentage will at least buy DotA 2. LoL on the other hand, a large majority of their player-base have never even played DotA, but I suspect that half of the players will at least try DotA 2, maybe not buy it, but definitely give it an interested pair of eyes and ears.
I stand behind IceFrog as he was given the rights to DotA-Allstars, he has full rights over it in that respect. Guinsoo left it behind if anything, he can suck the failure that he ended up having Riot versus Valve.
Also, forgot to mention: IceFrog has always been 100% about giving credit where it is due, but is a "no-bullshit" type of guy. If he doesn't see a reason for it, he won't do it: Like the forums that Pendragon maintained. IceFrog will almost, most definitely, still give credit and thanks to Eul, Guinsoo, Pendragon and I can bet your bottom dollar, Kunkka.
First and last thought that crossed my mind about this: "SC2 has multiple AoS for the same money they'll want for DotA2." Besides that, IceFrog never was someone who knew the word innovation or the correct way to handle heroes & balance. Though I guess that some of Valve's Seniors know their stuff and will bash him if he fails.
I don't disagree with valve's action for making an exact match of wc3 dota. HoN and LoL didn't deliever that much because of the changes they made were too much and these changes were dota's core. Of course dota needs a graphical upgrade, but HoN and LoL made it overly eyecandy and pretty in the wrong way. Much of the competitive groups of Dota bashes on HoN and LoL because they took away the elements that was suppsoed to be dota. If icefrog and valve made a complete remake of Dota, they would be able to migrate the huge playerbase of wc3 dota to their game. Lol and Hon downsized the competitivesness overall like no deny and ally's hero status on screen for the less competitive. These changes were really disliked or marked as lazy or people with no awareness in leagues.
Icefrog actually takes the community ideas in full consideration and bug fix response of 2-3 days of map releases. With him supporting, I'm pretty sure valve dota will be able to increase it's playerbase to the less competitive after the initial remake.
From what I read from that article, this game seems mostly runned by the community, like dota is
ACTUALLY, it's just LoL that fucked up. HoN has Denys and I find it actually more fun then WC3 Dota, it's Faster and more intense, has reconnection after DC HoN > Dota in many factors. But I'm really looking forward to the continuation of WC3 Dota on Valves Source Engine because it will add all the bells and whistles that HoN already has, to an old but awesome game.
ACTUALLY, it's just LoL that fucked up. HoN has Denys and I find it actually more fun then WC3 Dota, it's Faster and more intense, has reconnection after DC HoN > Dota in many factors. But I'm really looking forward to the continuation of WC3 Dota on Valves Source Engine because it will add all the bells and whistles that HoN already has, to an old but awesome game.
why the hell do ppl give a crap about denying. boohooo my enemy killed that guy instead of me and got a small amount of gold.
why the hell do ppl give a crap about denying. boohooo my enemy killed that guy instead of me and got a small amount of gold.
So... You are saying you don't have the skill to prevent an enemy from getting gold to buy more items and the experience they need to say, be level 8 while your level 10, an obviously bigger advantage. Not to mention, LoL is just too far based on dividing the skill gap.
Early game is about getting gold and experience, since the creeps in the long run, will be 80-90% of your experience and gold, not enemies. LoL gives 300 gold per kill, where as HoN/DOTA give 200.
DOTA will be a great game, if you are too scared that you wont be good enough to out-last-hit your opponents and avoid dying meaningless deaths to keep your precious gold... Then stick to LoL. It's like sucking at Halo, so you play Battlefield or CoD.
That's what pisses me off the most, people don't realize: Each of these games will have their own differences and play-styles, just like games of any other genre. You can continue calling this game an AoS or use a term I heard somewhere, which sounded neat: Role-Playing Arena.
A few reasons I don't like DOTA, and things that not even the most liberal of DOTA clones will ever address for as long as the earth is green:
1. Before the game is half over the troops are nothing but a detriment to your team and a boon for the enemy. You'd be better off without them, and the one defining concept of AoS is undermined completely.
2. Not enough variety in playstyles. No tank heroes, anti-nuke, or heroes that support the troops (coinciding with #1). Even in LoL the supposed "tank" heroes are based around snares or nukes.
3. Four abilities vs. a bajillion items. Interesting abilities, but boring stat-boosters get all the effort and attention. Why?
4. The game is uninspired and meaningless. Eul's original game was about a Night Elf faction defending the Ancients against an undead menace. The current iteration is about a contrived collection of avatars doing battle for no reason.
A few reasons I don't like DOTA, and things that not even the most liberal of DOTA clones will ever address for as long as the earth is green:
1. Before the game is half over the troops are nothing but a detriment to your team and a boon for the enemy. You'd be better off without them, and the one defining concept of AoS is undermined completely.
2. Not enough variety in playstyles. No tank heroes, anti-nuke, or heroes that support the troops (coinciding with #1). Even in LoL the supposed "tank" heroes are based around snares or nukes.
3. Four abilities vs. a bajillion items. Interesting abilities, but boring stat-boosters get all the effort and attention. Why?
4. The game is uninspired and meaningless. Eul's original game was about a Night Elf faction defending the Ancients against an undead menace. The current iteration is about a contrived collection of avatars doing battle for no reason.
...Actually, the introduction of All Pick was in All-Stars. Originally, you picked from heroes of the two different factions and couldn't interchange, true. But now a days, who really cares? I mean, multiplayer has never been about story, it was always competition.
I can also agree with you on the fact LoL items are very shitty. Their all straight ability boosters, really lacking any situational abilities or straight actives. It's a little annoying.
And to re-educate you on the aspects of unit roles, there has been and always will be these types of heroes in AoS games unless they change the very essence of the game: There is no such thing as a tank, any hero that is about straight survivability with no real roles is just... wrong.
You have initiators, who start fights and are meant to survive that initial rush. These are mostly heroes with stuns or crowd control, sometimes these abilities have blinks attached to them. Then you have DPS/Auto-Attack heroes, who have abilities enhancing their auto-attack and building around attack damage/speed makes them eat enemy heroes hard, but lack health. Support heroes are meant to aid from a distance with stuns, slows, crowd control or heals. Gankers are the heroes made to attack other lanes early on and are usually confused with Initiators, thought their roles interchange. These heroes have map control, able to either reveal or move around the map quickly, usually have much use for runes or in LoL's case, buffs. Lastly, you have Nukers, who are made to deal burst damage through abilities. Nukers are commonly mixed with Support or Ganker roles.
Just a little education. LoL has a lot of differences from DotA/HoN though, so these roles are very... Watered down, into what you have in the game. They even based their roles off these general guidelines, but they are far from the original essence of the game.
So... You are saying you don't have the skill to prevent an enemy from getting gold to buy more items and the experience they need to say, be level 8 while your level 10, an obviously bigger advantage. Not to mention, LoL is just too far based on dividing the skill gap.
Early game is about getting gold and experience, since the creeps in the long run, will be 80-90% of your experience and gold, not enemies. LoL gives 300 gold per kill, where as HoN/DOTA give 200.
DOTA will be a great game, if you are too scared that you wont be good enough to out-last-hit your opponents and avoid dying meaningless deaths to keep your precious gold... Then stick to LoL. It's like sucking at Halo, so you play Battlefield or CoD.
That's what pisses me off the most, people don't realize: Each of these games will have their own differences and play-styles, just like games of any other genre. You can continue calling this game an AoS or use a term I heard somewhere, which sounded neat: Role-Playing Arena.
wait let me get this straight
.
.
.
.
so the game is about farming creeps?
Dota was about farming creeps and noobs early game. Then it was all about knowing what items to buy and order to buy them (making it even more unnoob friendly). And finally it was about teaming up and ganking people on the map.
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I don't disagree with valve's action for making an exact match of wc3 dota. HoN and LoL didn't deliever that much because of the changes they made were too much and these changes were dota's core. Of course dota needs a graphical upgrade, but HoN and LoL made it overly eyecandy and pretty in the wrong way. Much of the competitive groups of Dota bashes on HoN and LoL because they took away the elements that was suppsoed to be dota. If icefrog and valve made a complete remake of Dota, they would be able to migrate the huge playerbase of wc3 dota to their game. Lol and Hon downsized the competitivesness overall like no deny and ally's hero status on screen for the less competitive. These changes were really disliked or marked as lazy or people with no awareness in leagues.
Icefrog actually takes the community ideas in full consideration and bug fix response of 2-3 days of map releases. With him supporting, I'm pretty sure valve dota will be able to increase it's playerbase to the less competitive after the initial remake.
From what I read from that article, this game seems mostly runned by the community, like dota is
It's been said that the mark of insanity is doing something exactly the same way and expecting a different outcome.
I believe while dota might of lengthened wc3's life, it also changed the community. The dota community is not known for being friendly.Once dota become really popular, it started flooding the custom games list, to the point where no other map could even have a chance of overcoming its popularity.
http://icefrogtruth.blogspot.com/
I feel this is somewhat relevant.
That being said, ethical to make it or not, Im guessing it will suceed.
That icefrog link is pretty unsubstantiated. And i don't blame a guy from wanting to remain annonymous with a community like DOTA's.
crazyfingers619,
True, I can't really prove its real, Although I did find the link on Penny Arcade. Tbh, I don't know enough about DOTA to know if the gameplay is bad(I know the core stuff, but not about the balance, heroes, items, etc) So, Im not going to judge the game itself.
Note sure why the hate for LoL, it's a great game, constantly being updated, again free but with a store that is fair. Just the fact you can play and unlock heros as you go, or just plunk down 30 bucks and go nuts in the store is awesome.
Never cared for DOTA in WC3, never felt polished really, but again it was just a mod :p
I really wish the phrase DOTA wasn't trademark, should be like King of the Hill or Capture the Flag to me, but hey whatever, trademark and copyright law is nightmare to begin with.
I really like LoL, valve is also a good company tho, and they know how to bring in a good community. Poor community is what plagued DOTA and even LoL suffers from the asshattery of elitism. We see what DOTA 2 turns out to be, but simply copying and upgrading graphics of DOTA won't sell me on their product.
If it's Dota 2, it needs to be changed so it can have the classic 5v5, and will include newer stuff to give players a twist... Not repeat the same kind of rounds over and over again.
I got bored with these kind of games not from the raging competition, but from the stupid repetitiveness...
Fuel is added to the fire when people rage quits etc.
A 8v8 "attack and defend" mode may be neat... - Includes more players in one game. - Promotes greater team work since the gameplay is different.
Attack and defend is just that, the defenders have to progress their armies carefully while the attackers start off with a decent army and limited resources. Points are gained for how far you fought through the game, like if the attackers can't beat down the defender's territory in time, they lose and defender gain points.
It alternates 3 times and the rounds are fairly short, around 1020 minutes.
League of Legends is quite fun, for a community styled dota... At least you don't have elitists blaring at your ass every second. And it really is user friendly, compared to Dota on the Wc3. It focuses on updating a lot, providing unique and fun champions, and balancing them so one is never too powerful late game... I hated the old WC3 version and such because when it gets to late game, what happens is that your so weak that you can't even gain gold off of minions and mobs... Your at a standstill... I hate zealot frenzy for that too... Can't get a kill when the other guys got stronger infantries that made your unit's weapons obsolete... Heck my hero does like 60 damage but for some reason deals 0 to their infantries...
Yeah, League of legends is win.... Although there are some elitists.
Also, the Makers of the game always answer your questions.
@OneTwoSC:
The original might seem like garbage now, but when it came out in (i think) the August after War3's release i remember saying to myself "YES. YES. THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO PLAY." Compared to everything else at the time, the original DotA was spectacular.
@OneSoga:
I'm so glad people remember Eul. In my mind, DotA is his creation. When I first played Allstars after the the release of TFT, i thought it was all crappy because of the name and the horrible balance issues.
------
I kinda think it's too bad that no one played Eul's 2nd dota map. He made Dota 2: Thirst for Gamma way back in warcraft 3's prime, but no one would play it. It did crash a lot for me, but the heroes seemed more interesting, and the map wasn't so dumb simple.
------
As regards a new Icefrog Dota, it will have to be very, very good to oust LoL and HoN. I played LoL to 400ish wins and am not willing to play anything worse even if from within Sc2. SotIS just bores me.
It would be nice to see Tides of Blood and Eve of the Apocalypse too-- remade for sc2, of course. If Dota2 is really just a copy of the current war3 build of Dota, I will be very unimpressed.
That would actually be Eul, who did actually make a FT version, but it was very incomplete. Guinsoo then made the All-Stars version, one of many different versions that were made after this. All-Stars ended up being the most successful, with the newly added recipes and if I remember correctly, introduced runes. However while Guinsoo was in charge of the project, it was extremely imbalanced and had a lot of bugs. Stepping down and handing the torch to IceFrog, who then made the map 'balanced' and competitive. If it wasn't for IceFrog, DotA wouldn't have been anywhere near as popular as it is today.
In all honesty, Guinsoo needs to stop being such a prick about DotA 2, it cannot just remain so... 'Unfinished.' This is the obvious next step and when it launches, here is my predictions as a person who has followed DotA since RoC:
The HoN community is about 90% DotA die-hards. I suspect that the entire percentage will at least buy DotA 2. LoL on the other hand, a large majority of their player-base have never even played DotA, but I suspect that half of the players will at least try DotA 2, maybe not buy it, but definitely give it an interested pair of eyes and ears.
I stand behind IceFrog as he was given the rights to DotA-Allstars, he has full rights over it in that respect. Guinsoo left it behind if anything, he can suck the failure that he ended up having Riot versus Valve.
Also, forgot to mention: IceFrog has always been 100% about giving credit where it is due, but is a "no-bullshit" type of guy. If he doesn't see a reason for it, he won't do it: Like the forums that Pendragon maintained. IceFrog will almost, most definitely, still give credit and thanks to Eul, Guinsoo, Pendragon and I can bet your bottom dollar, Kunkka.
Lol4lief.datzall.but knowing valve it REALY needs to have the humor all (or most havent playd HL or l3d) of their games have or itll be a fail
First and last thought that crossed my mind about this: "SC2 has multiple AoS for the same money they'll want for DotA2." Besides that, IceFrog never was someone who knew the word innovation or the correct way to handle heroes & balance. Though I guess that some of Valve's Seniors know their stuff and will bash him if he fails.
ACTUALLY, it's just LoL that fucked up. HoN has Denys and I find it actually more fun then WC3 Dota, it's Faster and more intense, has reconnection after DC HoN > Dota in many factors. But I'm really looking forward to the continuation of WC3 Dota on Valves Source Engine because it will add all the bells and whistles that HoN already has, to an old but awesome game.
why the hell do ppl give a crap about denying. boohooo my enemy killed that guy instead of me and got a small amount of gold.
So... You are saying you don't have the skill to prevent an enemy from getting gold to buy more items and the experience they need to say, be level 8 while your level 10, an obviously bigger advantage. Not to mention, LoL is just too far based on dividing the skill gap.
Early game is about getting gold and experience, since the creeps in the long run, will be 80-90% of your experience and gold, not enemies. LoL gives 300 gold per kill, where as HoN/DOTA give 200.
DOTA will be a great game, if you are too scared that you wont be good enough to out-last-hit your opponents and avoid dying meaningless deaths to keep your precious gold... Then stick to LoL. It's like sucking at Halo, so you play Battlefield or CoD.
That's what pisses me off the most, people don't realize: Each of these games will have their own differences and play-styles, just like games of any other genre. You can continue calling this game an AoS or use a term I heard somewhere, which sounded neat: Role-Playing Arena.
A few reasons I don't like DOTA, and things that not even the most liberal of DOTA clones will ever address for as long as the earth is green:
1. Before the game is half over the troops are nothing but a detriment to your team and a boon for the enemy. You'd be better off without them, and the one defining concept of AoS is undermined completely.
2. Not enough variety in playstyles. No tank heroes, anti-nuke, or heroes that support the troops (coinciding with #1). Even in LoL the supposed "tank" heroes are based around snares or nukes.
3. Four abilities vs. a bajillion items. Interesting abilities, but boring stat-boosters get all the effort and attention. Why?
4. The game is uninspired and meaningless. Eul's original game was about a Night Elf faction defending the Ancients against an undead menace. The current iteration is about a contrived collection of avatars doing battle for no reason.
@TheZizz: Go
...Actually, the introduction of All Pick was in All-Stars. Originally, you picked from heroes of the two different factions and couldn't interchange, true. But now a days, who really cares? I mean, multiplayer has never been about story, it was always competition.
I can also agree with you on the fact LoL items are very shitty. Their all straight ability boosters, really lacking any situational abilities or straight actives. It's a little annoying.
And to re-educate you on the aspects of unit roles, there has been and always will be these types of heroes in AoS games unless they change the very essence of the game: There is no such thing as a tank, any hero that is about straight survivability with no real roles is just... wrong.
You have initiators, who start fights and are meant to survive that initial rush. These are mostly heroes with stuns or crowd control, sometimes these abilities have blinks attached to them. Then you have DPS/Auto-Attack heroes, who have abilities enhancing their auto-attack and building around attack damage/speed makes them eat enemy heroes hard, but lack health. Support heroes are meant to aid from a distance with stuns, slows, crowd control or heals. Gankers are the heroes made to attack other lanes early on and are usually confused with Initiators, thought their roles interchange. These heroes have map control, able to either reveal or move around the map quickly, usually have much use for runes or in LoL's case, buffs. Lastly, you have Nukers, who are made to deal burst damage through abilities. Nukers are commonly mixed with Support or Ganker roles.
Just a little education. LoL has a lot of differences from DotA/HoN though, so these roles are very... Watered down, into what you have in the game. They even based their roles off these general guidelines, but they are far from the original essence of the game.
wait let me get this straight . . . . so the game is about farming creeps?
@deleted_4551290: Go
Early game is yes, you can't just lump the entirety of the games mechanics into "WHOLE GAME IS BASED ON THIS" that's just ignorant.
There's many aspects of the game that tie into eachother to create the whole. Take out a component of that and you change the whole flow.
@deleted_4551290: Go
Dota was about farming creeps and noobs early game. Then it was all about knowing what items to buy and order to buy them (making it even more unnoob friendly). And finally it was about teaming up and ganking people on the map.