Now, now, that' a bold statement. I believe for most of us this is a hobby in the first place. There are other 'productive' (in the sense you are actually making things) hobbies like painting, photography, model making, collecting stuff or whatever but I have yet to hear the statement that these are silly to do for yourself. Personally, I make maps that I would like to play, perhaps with friends. In your point of view this might be silly but be aware that speaking like this about something that others love can offend them easily.
I'll even go as far as calling it selfish.
Spending hundreds to thousands of hours making a game for yourself? Never intending anyone else to play it other than your friends? Seems like a waste to me.
I'm saying your focus should be what you are passionate about and not making the most played list. Maps that only focus on that are generally very generic and bland because the creator makes it into a science about how many people play it. I'm not saying you should have that goal I just feel like there are too many maps that only care about that.
It's also worth noting that while there were UMS websites and forums in SC:BW there wasn't any sort of rating system really. I think just about everyone can agree maps were a lot more entertaining on that system.
Yes, but they are at least attempting to do something about it via the Rock the Cabinet contest. Others may spring up too, whatever it takes for the third expansion to still be worth making...
I did notice the reviews coming in started to slow down. Didn't think SC2 was dying though since my game's been doing good and pretty good lately. (People playing in non-peak hours!)
EDIT: Starter edition players can't add a review, I think.
SC2 has been dying ever since its release, that's how the game market works. But there is no reason to believe that it will die off completely in the coming few years. You can safely continue to mapmake with the expectation of a player base.
I've both had maps that went first page, and maps that were forever buried down the popularity list. While I did enjoy having one of my maps the most played map for a couple of weeks, I believe I have created maps that are far greater than that (though never really popular) - and those are the ones that cross my mind first. To answer the question of reasons to mapmake, I know there's no reason that is labeled as right or wrong. Everyone has different intentions, varying from project to project even. If you're in it for the money though, I would recommend trying a different platform, as SC2 Arcade by nature is free to play.
SC2 has been dying ever since its release, that's how the game market works. But there is no reason to believe that it will die off completely in the coming few years. You can safely continue to mapmake with the expectation of a player base.
I was gonna chime in with that; so I will add to it.
As someone who played wc3 custom games (Not DOTA, or Legion TD AKA squad TD) since release, and until about a year ago; I can say that sc2 is following the same progress route; albeit expected, and faster.
As new major patches are released, and expansions, and contests, ect, the community will bounce back; however it will always be degrading. When large releases like ESO, Dark Souls 2, GTA, ect; drop, the community will also drop. When those games become outplayed (A couple of months) people come back to sc2. This happened many times in wc3; as google analytic can confirm (at least for my site based around my game), major releases, vs mid semester break. Christmas break, summer break, the game community is booming; 5-6X the number of active players as say, finals week.
The game will always be dying off slowly. Wc3 has been dying for a decade; and was pronounced dead when sc2 released. The custom gaming community far outrivals ours (sc2). That though, is based on the dota community, the map variety, and the low system requirements (Europe and Eastern Asia, looking at you!)
I'm saying your focus should be what you are passionate about and not making the most played list. Maps that only focus on that are generally very generic and bland because the creator makes it into a science about how many people play it. I'm not saying you should have that goal I just feel like there are too many maps that only care about that.
It's also worth noting that while there were UMS websites and forums in SC:BW there wasn't any sort of rating system really. I think just about everyone can agree maps were a lot more entertaining on that system.
It isn't about being on the most played list, it's about your game actually being active. A map with heavy multiplayer focus will simply not do well if it isn't getting enough attention. And it's pretty bold to assume that anyone who takes this into consideration is making a "generic and bland" map.
Generally the maps that focuses on these sorts of elements have the best replayability, and that's important for any kind of game. When you make a game with only you as the player in mind, you're limiting your game's potential.
Is SC2 dying? If you define dying as not growth, then yes. Now with that out of the way...
Mapmaking (or any creative endeavor) should be done with a passion, irrespective of objective metrics (Reviews, Monetary compensation, Number of players, etc.). Even if the final product objectively performs poorly, the learning experience is priceless.
My personal story: I played Night of the Dead (NOTD) for 2.5 years, reached pretty much the end of progression. I'm a Computer Science and Engineering student, and coding is a passion, I'm entertained by it. So I volunteered to help fix bugs and code NOTD. For me, it was a way to apply the theory I had learned into something useful/practical. Fast forward 1.5 years later, and because of me coding all that time, I'm now making the sequel with much improvement over the current NOTD, it also helped me get a summer internship as a software engineer. The experience of learning the editor and applying it has taught me a great deal. Now, NOTD is a fairly popular map (Hovers 1st/2nd page on NA), but frankly I wouldn't care what it was, because I have the joy of making something better (NOTD) and now building something new and bringing people's ideas to life (NOTD 2) (I do not do any design, I just code, another person on my team does the bulk of the design). Moreover the experience gained of working with an international team will serve me well in the future.
TL;DR, most good things in life come from long term application, not instant payoff. Sure we hear the stories of people making apps in IOS or Android or whatever and making millions. Those people are the massive exceptions that prove the rule. For game designers, the editor is a good introduction to the aspects of making video game. For software people, the editor is a good intro into using tools and living with those tools to implement stuff, for a relatively cheap price (although most professional tools can be had for free by students).
Life is subjective, make what you will of it.
As for Blizzard and the Arcade. The impression I get is that Blizzard sunk an unusually large amount of resources into Titan (their "secret" next gen mmo project). Consequently all the other games got breadcrumbs in terms of resources, which led to stagnation. Now that the staff have been reassigned back to the various teams, more stuff is being implemented but still takes time. So far, they have added F2P for Arcade, the Rock the Cabinet Contest, a new CM who is mostly dedicated to Arcade stuff (Zoevia), and more active participation by CM's with Arcade stuff. I foresee servers side banks and a number of other things come as a consequence of Heroes of the Storm. At this current juncture I would say that the Arcade could be spun off from main sc2, but will have to wait and see. So far, many of the things we requested of Blizzard when they asked last fall have been implemented, with more rumored to be on the way (in development as opposed to just wishful speculation if the rumors are to be true).
Also, I imagine Blizzard may or may not be more willing to listen to people now that most of the usual whiners have left. One major issue I've noted is that people routinely suggest stuff to Blizzard and either A) suggest stuff that in practice would take a fairly lengthy amount of time to implement (since most people making suggestions have 0 game design or software experience) or B) Make perfectly legitimate arguments/criticisms/suggestion and use the most offensive tone possible, which leads to them being instantly discredited and ignored, especially when they repeat said behavior over and over. And when Blizzard finally decides on something, people usually tear them up ("Too little too late" "Blizzard is fail" "Morons...", etc.). And frankly the amount of personal involvement people seem to make with games now a days is... disturbing at times (especially coming from relatively young adults taking the stance of being personally insulted and vowing to bring as much negativity to the company, as if they were personally betrayed).
Anyhow, that was longer then I thought it would be.
Waits for Jademus to insert an even larger wall of text complete with philosophical waxing*
Sigh... I think I need to join the Mozared Infection...
Spending hundreds to thousands of hours making a game for yourself? Never intending anyone else to play it other than your friends? Seems like a waste to me.
Has nothing to do with selfish. Its your time you are spending on it, noone else even has the slightest amout of rights to the product you make with that time. Honestly, it seems like to me you are just looking for an excuse to make watered down boring "public" friendly maps.
Has nothing to do with selfish. Its your time you are spending on it, noone else even has the slightest amout of rights to the product you make with that time. Honestly, it seems like to me you are just looking for an excuse to make watered down boring "public" friendly maps.
Hostility; you are both looking for a fight. On 1 hand, many people may find it more fun to have a popular map. It can add to the entertainment value of a game to play it with thousands of different people. As an editor, it can be challenging and rewarding to try to please thousands of active players. On the other hand; it can be equally fun and rewarding to make a game that only a select few people enjoy, but knowing that you are the only person who took the time to make such a niche game -which you enjoy playing.
Everyone edits for their own reasons. No one here has the right to say anyone else's reasons are wrong. 1 team 1 fight!
Spending hundreds to thousands of hours making a game for yourself? Never intending anyone else to play it other than your friends? Seems like a waste to me.
Err...if anybody is selfish it's the person who wants the fame and glory of making a top ten list.
It isn't about being on the most played list, it's about your game actually being active. A map with heavy multiplayer focus will simply not do well if it isn't getting enough attention. And it's pretty bold to assume that anyone who takes this into consideration is making a "generic and bland" map.
Generally the maps that focuses on these sorts of elements have the best replayability, and that's important for any kind of game. When you make a game with only you as the player in mind, you're limiting your game's potential.
But that's just my opinion.
Like I said before I don't feel it should be the biggest focus. Never said it shouldn't have a place. Also not sure where the make a map for yourself alone came from. What I was going for is if you are not passionate about what you do it'll likely turn out crap. There are some map makers who hate the projects they work on and only continue because it might be on that list for a little while. In my opinion that's very bad for a project.
Hostility; you are both looking for a fight. On 1 hand, many people may find it more fun to have a popular map. It can add to the entertainment value of a game to play it with thousands of different people. As an editor, it can be challenging and rewarding to try to please thousands of active players. On the other hand; it can be equally fun and rewarding to make a game that only a select few people enjoy, but knowing that you are the only person who took the time to make such a niche game -which you enjoy playing.
Everyone edits for their own reasons. No one here has the right to say anyone else's reasons are wrong. 1 team 1 fight!
I just get easily annoyed when people make up reasons just to hate on a viewpoint they disagree with, expecially if its a reason as nonesensical as "selfish" in this context. Its just so small minded. I could write a book about why "selfish" doesnt make any sense in this context what-so-ever, but he uses that as a "reason" to disrespect mappers like me instead of accepting that some people map for other reasons than he does, which at the same time are just as valid as his.
Has nothing to do with selfish. Its your time you are spending on it, noone else even has the slightest amout of rights to the product you make with that time. Honestly, it seems like to me you are just looking for an excuse to make watered down boring "public" friendly maps.
Well, you don't have to contribute to the arcade if you don't want to. I just feel if you're going to put all that time and effort into something, you may as well make something everyone can enjoy.
Like I said before I don't feel it should be the biggest focus. Never said it shouldn't have a place. Also not sure where the make a map for yourself alone came from. What I was going for is if you are not passionate about what you do it'll likely turn out crap. There are some map makers who hate the projects they work on and only continue because it might be on that list for a little while. In my opinion that's very bad for a project.
Of course you have to be passionate about it. But how does wanting an active community mean you lack passion for the project?
Like I said before I don't feel it should be the biggest focus. Never said it shouldn't have a place. Also not sure where the make a map for yourself alone came from. What I was going for is if you are not passionate about what you do it'll likely turn out crap. There are some map makers who hate the projects they work on and only continue because it might be on that list for a little while. In my opinion that's very bad for a project.
Having created 20 maps (!) in a genre that at best is semi-popular and naturally unfit for replayability, I can safely say that I agree that passion matters.
I also agree with those who said that the popularity index ruined the custom map scene. It's not fun roaming through x amount pages only to find maps that nobody play even though they're awesome. Luckily for me, I create maps first and foremost for myself, because I love doing it.
Well, you don't have to contribute to the arcade if you don't want to. I just feel if you're going to put all that time and effort into something, you may as well make something everyone can enjoy.
SC2 is still popular enough. One of the most popular multiplayer games. You don't need the super active community that it was in 2010. And besides, if you start a project now it might be finished just in time for the next surge that will come with Legacy of the Void.
SC2 mod capabilities are unlike any others. It's not like an FPS. Let's say if you modded Half-Life 1, and then thought "hmm people are playing more Crysis or Half-Life 2 nowadays, I should switch engines". You can't do that with SC2. No other RTS provides that power. Which is why there will still be people playing this game in 2020. I still get asked frequently by WarCraft 3 players if I want to create another campaign, and the last project I finished on WC3 was in 2009.
Stay motivated, work hard, have fun, don't give a shit (until it's time for public testing, then everyone is your new best friend :) ).
Well, you don't have to contribute to the arcade if you don't want to. I just feel if you're going to put all that time and effort into something, you may as well make something everyone can enjoy.
If thats something thats important to you, thats fine, but dont start calling people out for not sharing your mapping philosophy like you did earlier in this thread, because that makes you seem like a pretty big jerk. I contribute to the arcade in the way I deem fit for myself. I dont care about everyone enjoying my maps, I care about myself and the niche group they are designed for enjoying them. Why should one change a map so people that dont like the map in the first place can enjoy it? The answer is one shouldnt.
I'll even go as far as calling it selfish.
Spending hundreds to thousands of hours making a game for yourself? Never intending anyone else to play it other than your friends? Seems like a waste to me.
@zrankfappa: Go
I'm saying your focus should be what you are passionate about and not making the most played list. Maps that only focus on that are generally very generic and bland because the creator makes it into a science about how many people play it. I'm not saying you should have that goal I just feel like there are too many maps that only care about that.
It's also worth noting that while there were UMS websites and forums in SC:BW there wasn't any sort of rating system really. I think just about everyone can agree maps were a lot more entertaining on that system.
@zrankfappa: Go
Is SC2 dying?
Yes, but they are at least attempting to do something about it via the Rock the Cabinet contest. Others may spring up too, whatever it takes for the third expansion to still be worth making...
I did notice the reviews coming in started to slow down. Didn't think SC2 was dying though since my game's been doing good and pretty good lately. (People playing in non-peak hours!)
EDIT: Starter edition players can't add a review, I think.
Member since 2010. Made the -The Thing- [Revival] game. Nostalgic of the WC3 days.
SC2 has been dying ever since its release, that's how the game market works. But there is no reason to believe that it will die off completely in the coming few years. You can safely continue to mapmake with the expectation of a player base.
I've both had maps that went first page, and maps that were forever buried down the popularity list. While I did enjoy having one of my maps the most played map for a couple of weeks, I believe I have created maps that are far greater than that (though never really popular) - and those are the ones that cross my mind first. To answer the question of reasons to mapmake, I know there's no reason that is labeled as right or wrong. Everyone has different intentions, varying from project to project even. If you're in it for the money though, I would recommend trying a different platform, as SC2 Arcade by nature is free to play.
I was gonna chime in with that; so I will add to it.
As someone who played wc3 custom games (Not DOTA, or Legion TD AKA squad TD) since release, and until about a year ago; I can say that sc2 is following the same progress route; albeit expected, and faster.
As new major patches are released, and expansions, and contests, ect, the community will bounce back; however it will always be degrading. When large releases like ESO, Dark Souls 2, GTA, ect; drop, the community will also drop. When those games become outplayed (A couple of months) people come back to sc2. This happened many times in wc3; as google analytic can confirm (at least for my site based around my game), major releases, vs mid semester break. Christmas break, summer break, the game community is booming; 5-6X the number of active players as say, finals week.
The game will always be dying off slowly. Wc3 has been dying for a decade; and was pronounced dead when sc2 released. The custom gaming community far outrivals ours (sc2). That though, is based on the dota community, the map variety, and the low system requirements (Europe and Eastern Asia, looking at you!)
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
It isn't about being on the most played list, it's about your game actually being active. A map with heavy multiplayer focus will simply not do well if it isn't getting enough attention. And it's pretty bold to assume that anyone who takes this into consideration is making a "generic and bland" map.
Generally the maps that focuses on these sorts of elements have the best replayability, and that's important for any kind of game. When you make a game with only you as the player in mind, you're limiting your game's potential.
But that's just my opinion.
I like how this thread actually did turn into something interesting.
*Sits back down and continues basket of popcorn*
Guess I should toss my 2 cents worth in.
Is SC2 dying? If you define dying as not growth, then yes. Now with that out of the way...
Mapmaking (or any creative endeavor) should be done with a passion, irrespective of objective metrics (Reviews, Monetary compensation, Number of players, etc.). Even if the final product objectively performs poorly, the learning experience is priceless.
My personal story: I played Night of the Dead (NOTD) for 2.5 years, reached pretty much the end of progression. I'm a Computer Science and Engineering student, and coding is a passion, I'm entertained by it. So I volunteered to help fix bugs and code NOTD. For me, it was a way to apply the theory I had learned into something useful/practical. Fast forward 1.5 years later, and because of me coding all that time, I'm now making the sequel with much improvement over the current NOTD, it also helped me get a summer internship as a software engineer. The experience of learning the editor and applying it has taught me a great deal. Now, NOTD is a fairly popular map (Hovers 1st/2nd page on NA), but frankly I wouldn't care what it was, because I have the joy of making something better (NOTD) and now building something new and bringing people's ideas to life (NOTD 2) (I do not do any design, I just code, another person on my team does the bulk of the design). Moreover the experience gained of working with an international team will serve me well in the future.
TL;DR, most good things in life come from long term application, not instant payoff. Sure we hear the stories of people making apps in IOS or Android or whatever and making millions. Those people are the massive exceptions that prove the rule. For game designers, the editor is a good introduction to the aspects of making video game. For software people, the editor is a good intro into using tools and living with those tools to implement stuff, for a relatively cheap price (although most professional tools can be had for free by students).
Life is subjective, make what you will of it.
As for Blizzard and the Arcade. The impression I get is that Blizzard sunk an unusually large amount of resources into Titan (their "secret" next gen mmo project). Consequently all the other games got breadcrumbs in terms of resources, which led to stagnation. Now that the staff have been reassigned back to the various teams, more stuff is being implemented but still takes time. So far, they have added F2P for Arcade, the Rock the Cabinet Contest, a new CM who is mostly dedicated to Arcade stuff (Zoevia), and more active participation by CM's with Arcade stuff. I foresee servers side banks and a number of other things come as a consequence of Heroes of the Storm. At this current juncture I would say that the Arcade could be spun off from main sc2, but will have to wait and see. So far, many of the things we requested of Blizzard when they asked last fall have been implemented, with more rumored to be on the way (in development as opposed to just wishful speculation if the rumors are to be true).
Also, I imagine Blizzard may or may not be more willing to listen to people now that most of the usual whiners have left. One major issue I've noted is that people routinely suggest stuff to Blizzard and either A) suggest stuff that in practice would take a fairly lengthy amount of time to implement (since most people making suggestions have 0 game design or software experience) or B) Make perfectly legitimate arguments/criticisms/suggestion and use the most offensive tone possible, which leads to them being instantly discredited and ignored, especially when they repeat said behavior over and over. And when Blizzard finally decides on something, people usually tear them up ("Too little too late" "Blizzard is fail" "Morons...", etc.). And frankly the amount of personal involvement people seem to make with games now a days is... disturbing at times (especially coming from relatively young adults taking the stance of being personally insulted and vowing to bring as much negativity to the company, as if they were personally betrayed).
Anyhow, that was longer then I thought it would be.
Sigh... I think I need to join the Mozared Infection...
I am not trying to be a dick or anything but who defines "Dying" as not growing? lol
SOURCE - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dying
Has nothing to do with selfish. Its your time you are spending on it, noone else even has the slightest amout of rights to the product you make with that time. Honestly, it seems like to me you are just looking for an excuse to make watered down boring "public" friendly maps.
Hostility; you are both looking for a fight. On 1 hand, many people may find it more fun to have a popular map. It can add to the entertainment value of a game to play it with thousands of different people. As an editor, it can be challenging and rewarding to try to please thousands of active players. On the other hand; it can be equally fun and rewarding to make a game that only a select few people enjoy, but knowing that you are the only person who took the time to make such a niche game -which you enjoy playing.
Everyone edits for their own reasons. No one here has the right to say anyone else's reasons are wrong. 1 team 1 fight!
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
Err...if anybody is selfish it's the person who wants the fame and glory of making a top ten list.
Like I said before I don't feel it should be the biggest focus. Never said it shouldn't have a place. Also not sure where the make a map for yourself alone came from. What I was going for is if you are not passionate about what you do it'll likely turn out crap. There are some map makers who hate the projects they work on and only continue because it might be on that list for a little while. In my opinion that's very bad for a project.
I just get easily annoyed when people make up reasons just to hate on a viewpoint they disagree with, expecially if its a reason as nonesensical as "selfish" in this context. Its just so small minded. I could write a book about why "selfish" doesnt make any sense in this context what-so-ever, but he uses that as a "reason" to disrespect mappers like me instead of accepting that some people map for other reasons than he does, which at the same time are just as valid as his.
Well, you don't have to contribute to the arcade if you don't want to. I just feel if you're going to put all that time and effort into something, you may as well make something everyone can enjoy.
Of course you have to be passionate about it. But how does wanting an active community mean you lack passion for the project?
Having created 20 maps (!) in a genre that at best is semi-popular and naturally unfit for replayability, I can safely say that I agree that passion matters.
I also agree with those who said that the popularity index ruined the custom map scene. It's not fun roaming through x amount pages only to find maps that nobody play even though they're awesome. Luckily for me, I create maps first and foremost for myself, because I love doing it.
I have no idea which is why I never said that...
SC2 is still popular enough. One of the most popular multiplayer games. You don't need the super active community that it was in 2010. And besides, if you start a project now it might be finished just in time for the next surge that will come with Legacy of the Void.
SC2 mod capabilities are unlike any others. It's not like an FPS. Let's say if you modded Half-Life 1, and then thought "hmm people are playing more Crysis or Half-Life 2 nowadays, I should switch engines". You can't do that with SC2. No other RTS provides that power. Which is why there will still be people playing this game in 2020. I still get asked frequently by WarCraft 3 players if I want to create another campaign, and the last project I finished on WC3 was in 2009.
Stay motivated, work hard, have fun, don't give a shit (until it's time for public testing, then everyone is your new best friend :) ).
If thats something thats important to you, thats fine, but dont start calling people out for not sharing your mapping philosophy like you did earlier in this thread, because that makes you seem like a pretty big jerk. I contribute to the arcade in the way I deem fit for myself. I dont care about everyone enjoying my maps, I care about myself and the niche group they are designed for enjoying them. Why should one change a map so people that dont like the map in the first place can enjoy it? The answer is one shouldnt.