I'm almost certain you'll need to include a HOTS dependency to use the expansion's features and having it without buying the expansion would be illegal, I would almost prefer it to yet more updates that change the base dependencies and break everything.
I really hope this will be like WoW's pre-expansion patches, where they add all the "systems" of the upcoming expansion.
In simpler terms: I hope we get the HotS version of the editor just without the HotS art assets.
Well they've been adding all of the models...
I have 2 sneaking suspecions. One of which may be true.
1. It could be that their sudden change of heart "hey we do listen" may be all part of the sales plan to sell HotS. I notice that every nearly 2 years of getting screwed everyone is suddenly all positive again. Heck I am too.
2. It wasn't exactly their choice to be responsive. I mean... its fair to call it 2 solid years at this point I think. Thats a bit long to claim you have been listening the whole time.
Still I'm trying to be optimistic.
I would like to utter a word of warning though. And hopefully Blizzard will catch this:
1. Even if it is finally fixed it will take some time for the custom map playerbase and community to start trickling back. As I pointed out in another thread their initial HotS sales are bound to take a hit because of their delay. Something that can be called a "full recovery" may not happen for several years. And again thats if they actually fix it. I'm going to wait and see.
2. Blizzard spent a decade building a spectacular reputation with its playerbase. Ya there were those pissed off even back then but some 10 million people bought sc2, and I'd be willing to place some bets that at least a few million was based on reputation and faith alone. A large section of the customers have lost that faith in Blizzard. I suspect a large number of them will be waiting to see if the system pans out before they buy. Again I think HotS sales will be affected and will take some time to sell the full amount.
I'm afraid though, that if HotS fails all might be lost. Blizzards delay in taking any action at all or making any response (1.3 was the only change and that only lasted for a month) at all has given a large section of the potential customer base an "all or nothing" attitude towards this expansion. If they had been showing they were working to fix it all along it might have been a different case but HotS, from the chats I've had with players and the posts I've seen is a "last straw" case. Nothing can be done about that now, and although I have my bones with Blizzard I hope for the sake of my loyal (and amazingly, still growing) player base that this does pan out.
Tofu is a year and a half old and I started working on it when I recieved a retail copy ... so yes ... two years is a fair call for Sc2's life.
@ 1 ;
I seriously have no real life mates left who play Sc2 ... they have all given up because mainly Bnet 2.0 was one, an epic failure, and two, the custom game scene ... they got sick of only being able to play the same dozen games over and over ... oh wait, I come from SEA, the same 3 games over and over. -_- ... I very highly doubt many of them will buy HotS simply because of the problems occured on launch. I really cannot say how depressing this is, even more so the amount of people I know who was going to buy Sc2 (mainly Dota players) who didn't because they saw the failure of Sc2's custom mapping scene.
@ 2 ;
I never lost faith in Blizzard, and I am the furthest you can be from a fanboy - I think Blizzard fucked up, like seriously, they just completely fucked up. They either had bad management decisions thrushed upon them by higher ups (aka Activision's crew) or they simply made some pretty poor design choices. Everyone stuffs up, and look, I stuffed up when I released the Tofu teaser back in April last year because I honestly thought we would be finished within a few weeks and its nearly a year later ... granted the game is 1000 times more amazing now but still ... point is there. But overall, Blizzard is an amazing company that does more for its community than most ... but at the same time Blizzard has always had a silent culture, and I wrote a letter like a month or two back to Blizzard telling them to do just this, to open up to the community, cause it is really bloody depressing when you work your ass off on a project, working against a flawed system and not getting any near of a mention from Blizzard on what is happening.
Transparency is extremely important, we need to know what Blizzard's intention is, even if they change their mind, just to say hey, we are thinking of doing this, what do you guys think? Because honest to god, ProzaicMuze and Dryeyece know more about the data editor than Blizzard's own programmers ... and who knows more is a touchy subject, but regardless, they are both at the top, both amazing down to earth people, who Blizzard could talk to and say, hey, what do you guys need.
It really fucken freaks me out when Blizzard pulls shit like this, cause honestly it is like ... wow ... do they really listen to everything I say, or is it merely one giant set of coincidences that has happened over the last better part of a year. I seriously don't know, but maybe Prozaic has a point, it is easier to shut me up by giving me what I want than try and fight with me, and that is probably what Blizzard did o_O.
I have no doubt that HotS sales will be effected by the choices they made earlier on, and I really want to not believe it but I reakon the main reason they are doing this is not really to help us because they care, but because if they get some really bloody good custom map projects out in the Arcade for the launch of HotS ... then it will help boost Sales. So theortically we, the mod community, hold the power of the franchise ... because as so many people have pointed out - it is more fun to watch Sc2 than it is to play it (melee) ... and it is _free_ to watch on youtube.
ProzaicMuze and Dryeyece know more about the data editor than Blizzard's own programmers
Bold statement. They know more than the people who designed, programed and hold the documentation for it? I can ask them about the most obscure little checkbox in the data editor and they'll have an answer?
You're both extremely delusional if you think that the state of custom games in SC2 will have any major effect on the sales of HotS.
Starcraft = melee/ladder games, tournaments. Customs are just a funny addition and only get in the spotlight when Day9, Husky or TB play some of them. We're the court jester of Starcraft...
It is a very bold statement and I can back up my claims because Blizzard's crew use raw XML, not the data editor, to make changes.
And you kind sir with all due respect are a moron :) ... if you would kindly make those same claims about Wc3 and say Wc3 is melee/ladder and Dota is just a funny addition and Icefrog is the court jester of Wc3. He might be an asshole, but he is definately not a funny man, trust me on this.
For the long life of any RTS game it has been the modding community that has extended it ... with perhaps the exception of Starcraft 1 and that was a sheer fluke no body saw coming ... a success which has not yet been repeated with Sc2 mainly due to broadcasting rights.
I would like share something with you. This was done a couple of months ago, but it still applies.
I surveyed 50 people, all of which I met in melee games. All of them. The survey consisted of one qusetion: which custom games do you play?
I will not post the results here, but the point of the survey was not to discover which gamse people enjoy and which they don't. Are you ready?
22/50 responded with a variation of "what is a custom game?" 12/50 responded with a variation of "i've never played them before" 14/50 responded with a map listed on the front page. 2/50 people responded with a game not listed on the front page. 1 was SmashCraft, another was a second page map that I did not record the name of.
Just think about that. Blizzard is doing this to allow for custom games to become well known. It is hard for many of us to understand this, but there are people who play SC2 who do not know WC3 even exists, much less have played it. There are people who can call SC2 their first RTS.
Now remember, this survey was issued in july of last year. It has been a while, and Blizzard has been working hard to allow custom games to become more well known. These results may be different now, and I would expect them to be.
Anways, now to the point. SC2 is fun, no doubt about it, but Blizzard has finally realized that if they want to sell HoTS, they need to make their custom games the main attraction, and I believe that is what they are trying to do.
As always, feel free to disagree. Sorry for type-os, this was done on a school computer with IE, and there is no spellcheck, and no way in hell am I proofreading a forum post.
Very interesting, thanks. One thing though: Do you think the results would have been different if you would have asked: "Which customs MAPS do you play?"? Because I think "game" can be easily misunderstood.
You know, there is something in me, deep inside called hope, but patch after patch this hope gets smashed with disappointment.
I got a lot of friends who brought SC2, because they thought it would be event fun without the campaign and melee matches since there will be great custom maps.
Well I don't think any of them is playing SC2 anymore and are definitely not going to buy HotS.
When I was at maximum frustration I wanted to create Sexy Game Quiz to show them how broken the popularity system was.
But now the actual Battlenet is not even worth this map anymore, even if its nearly finished and by far more advanced than the screen shots and videos I released.
Maybe it will get a release when the system changes into something better we all love to use.
I hope that Blizzard will make this dream come true, so the custom scene and the mapping communities are motivated to do larger projects.
If this happens, there sure are a lot of people returning to this Battlenet, including me.