I never said I don't want feedback.I said I hate the community that my map is popular with.I want to be friends with the people that play my game, not get rid of them.
thats such an interesting point if you think about it...
Makes you wonder how blizzard feels half the time while reading the wow forms lol.
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Grade school - Fat kid gets picked last for soccer because he holds the team back.
High school - Lots of people get benched because they hold the team back. Noobs get left out in online games.
Real life - People who can't fight get left out of war because they hold their team back (unless you need fodder).
At no point in life, or human history for that matter, has everybody played nice and everybody gets a medal for trying without somebody putting a gun to their head and forcing them. If it is your goal to restore civility to fellow human beings then you have to force it on them. If you're making a cooperative map then you need to account for bad players. If you don't then bad players will be the fat kid in gym class and nobody will want them because they make winning or even having a fun game impossible.
You covered yourself in chum then jumped into the waters and act surprised when the sharks go crazy. They're sharks, that's what they do. Either live with it or figure out a way to change the situation, ie don't cover yourself in chum and get a shark cage.
Since you have a co-op TD the obvious thing is to track player performance from game to game, or even wave to wave. Make an internal scoring system so that the difficulty adjusts based upon how they performed in previous games or waves. That way if you have 1 person capable of carrying 100 lbs and another who can do 50 lbs then the game gives them 150 so that together they are both still challenged and need to do their best. That could easily be achieved by adjusting spawn rates or mob stats. The important thing to remember with Co-op maps is that one weak link breaks the chain. You will have people of all different skill levels regardless of what community you cater to. Taking that fact into account those bad players will always be shunned and elitism will run rampant unless you take steps to prevent it.
Also, you broke your map and wasted a lot of people's time. Of course they're not happy with you, that should go without saying.
It was april fools... it wasn't like it was rectified the day after? Come on seriously.... if people can't take a joke once in a while then half the mapmakers would leave... we make maps for fun (the majority of us) and being eaten alive cause of an april fools joke... is just stupid.
It's a TD. How many people do you see go crazy when they they lose a game of Angry Birds? Do they start cussing out everyone around them? I can't join a game without experiencing people yelling at each other.
--
I wasted a bunch of peoples' time? You're looking at it too seriously again. It was a bug and not my intention to destroy towers permanently. It was intended to give players a small freak out, then revive all of their towers at the end of the round. I make one small mistake and everyone freaks out. In any case, I don't want the community that plays the game to be the type that is bothered by stuff like this. A bug where everything explodes is funny to me.
You've probably noticed the sheer amount of awesome explosions in my TD. That's because I think explosions are awesome. When I was little my favorite movie was Independence Day because it had lots of explosions. There's nothing serious or competitive about explosions. Explosions are just awesome. It surprises me even more that people play my map on low settings without HDR (which I use for the majority of the explosion effects). What's the point? I honestly cannot fathom any point at all to playing my map under these conditions.
I have an appointment with Disney tomorrow concerning the conversion of my TD to a Disney World ride. However, this still doesn't change the fact that the majority of people riding it will still probably be twelve-year-olds.
Are you trolling us by complaining that your map is popular? It feels like every time I come to these forums somebody complains about their maps not being popular.
The whole point of the game is its reliance on team work. If it were more forgiving of players doing their own thing, it wouldn't take an entire month of of playing every day for the average player to beat it.
The difficulty creates replay value and its replay value creates popularity.
I blame the custom game and popularity system for the need to make the map so replayable. If keeping the map on the first 1 or 2 pages didn't depend on players needing to play it over and over again, I could loosen it up to attract an audience with less foot up ass.
thats part of why i enjoy wc3 custom game system where you can give game names in the title to eliminate the weak or the good to give you all a scope and no ragers(just what i think)
but ye maybe they should implement a offline state for sc2 ;P
i know my friend would use it alot
It's a TD.How many people do you see go crazy when they they lose a game of Angry Birds?Do they start cussing out everyone around them?I can't join a game without experiencing people yelling at each other. <</quote>>
You missed the point of mine as well. Anytime you make people work together that is going to happen. We live in a world where soccer moms yell insults across the field and abuse the ref at their child's game. Anytime there is more than one person involved there is a chance it will happen. The more people you have, the more it will happen. That's in real life, put people safely behind their computer and it gets even worse.
I wasted a bunch of peoples' time?You're looking at it too seriously again.It was a bug and not my intention to destroy towers permanently.It was intended to give players a small freak out, then revive all of their towers at the end of the round.I make one small mistake and everyone freaks out.In any case, I don't want the community that plays the game to be the type that is bothered by stuff like this.A bug where everything explodes is funny to me.
You have to look at it from the players perspective, they didn't know it was a bug. From their perspective they were just being jerked around by a bad joke. As for the response, getting negative feedback when you mess up is to be expected. The coliseum games were free as well, but you better believe there would be a riot if the gladiators got stuck in their room. Emperors have been killed for less. The players and community get blamed a lot in online games, but they're just reacting exactly as humans have always done. When you put them in a situation that rewards such behavior it's going to run rampant. It's like complaining that people don't recycle. That behavior isn't going to change until it is in their interest to change. Whether that be incentives, ease of use, or necessity. Standing around complaining about people not recycling or hoping for change won't accomplish anything.
As you pointed out, you have a problem as the developer of making the game difficult enough to be replayable but friendly enough to not cause nerd rage. Problem is that your player base will range widely in skill, so a single, static difficulty level will always fail at one aspect, or at worst both. Without making the map fit the individual player group so there is a good, but not certain chance of defeat, then you either resign your self to encouraging elitism or page 1000.
You have to look at it from the players perspective, they didn't know it was a bug. From their perspective they were just being jerked around by a bad joke.
no one can understand, or predict why/how/when people will get offended. compromising an author's right to publish what s/he pleases goes against everything most free people deem of highest importance.
it was a joke. on april fools day, none-the-less. did anyone rage when the hodrardic cube joke wasn't true? come on, pal.
and i'm not joking here one bit: you are an idiot if you actually believe what you are typing. your username says it all. are you REALLY a foolish fool? or is it a little joke to call yourself that?
if you can't see my point, my humor, or even smile a bit, then i can't help you.
That's all fine and dandy, but just because people oftentimes suck it doesn't mean that we should just 'accept that' and 'not whine about it'? Harassment over something like this is uncalled for. You can't defend the people doing it with the argument "yeah, that's what people do". All Vexal's doing is uttering his frustration with these kind of players and that is well within his rights.
You can understand why, how, and when people get offended. There's no great mystery to people, they're quite simple. It's not that I approve of or agree with what's happening. I'm not even defending them. I'm explaining that this was the only possible outcome. Vexal getting frustrated is natural too, but getting angry at the community isn't going to fix anything. I'm not going to go out and yell at the clouds for blocking my sun. I'm also not going to get mad at people for being idiots. There's no point in complaining about something that was predestined.
I'm one of the few people here actually giving constructive advice on the problem of his community. What I'm saying is that trying to change the people is impossible. One of the few possible alternatives is to change the environment that those people are in, which will influence how they behave. You'll still have the same people, but they won't be nerd raging over every little thing. As for the bug, it's really inconsequential. Yeah they're mad now, but they'll have forgotten within a week.
Personally I think the entire thing is funny from the bug, to the response, to the shock at the response, to the community he despises. Expecting people to behave is expecting far too much so of course you'll be mad and dissapointed when they let you down.
People take a map too seriously. Even if it was a bad joke just message him to change it back. Nobody has to be violent, offensive, or anything negative when asking for something especially when he owes you nothing as the player. So the players are out of line here.
I'm not going to go out and yell at the clouds for blocking my sun.
why the hell not??
Quote:
I'm one of the few people here actually giving constructive advice on the problem of his community.
no you're not. you're doing the classic move of trying to be constructive but you're only faking it to look good. none of the advice you have given is constructive. half of the stuff you spew is classic troll-shrouds-herself-in-pretty-flowers junk we all recognize. your advice is EXACTLY the same thing as saying "just deal with it" or my favorite: "adapt or die". and i think that's pretty close to what vexal was trying to say: just deal/adapt or die.
vexal's post was not begging for constructive criticism. i think it was begging for tolerance of his creative process. if tolerance cannot be summoned, then i think he was saying "bugger off; there are other games to play. life is one of them."
another point you fail to discuss (only because it doesn't fit into your 'con-crit' theme) is that people are breaking the Game-to-RealLife boundary. true, vexal does post his personal information. but that is not an excuse to abuse that.
however, i still feel that he should remove his real life info and make a new facebook page strictly for his map (or multiple maps).
[that one sentence above gave more constructive help than your entire thought process.]
You can understand why, how, and when people get offended. There's no great mystery to people, they're quite simple. It's not that I approve of or agree with what's happening. I'm not even defending them. I'm explaining that this was the only possible outcome. Vexal getting frustrated is natural too, but getting angry at the community isn't going to fix anything. I'm not going to go out and yell at the clouds for blocking my sun. I'm also not going to get mad at people for being idiots. There's no point in complaining about something that was predestined.
I'm one of the few people here actually giving constructive advice on the problem of his community. What I'm saying is that trying to change the people is impossible. One of the few possible alternatives is to change the environment that those people are in, which will influence how they behave. You'll still have the same people, but they won't be nerd raging over every little thing. As for the bug, it's really inconsequential. Yeah they're mad now, but they'll have forgotten within a week.
Personally I think the entire thing is funny from the bug, to the response, to the shock at the response, to the community he despises. Expecting people to behave is expecting far too much so of course you'll be mad and dissapointed when they let you down.
My point was that while a little pessimism isn't bad per se, you're acting as if you should expect people to personally harass you every time you do something you don't like. I really don't think this was 'the only possible outcome'. Anger, sure, but people harassing you whenever you come online? That's some real shit you've got there. Sure, Vexal is 'shouting at the clouds', but hence my constructive advice; show them "who's boss". If he'd shut down his map because of people being assholes, it's not unlikely that at least a couple of them might think "Hey, I yelled at him for doing that lame joke, and now he shut down the entire map - now I can't play my favourite TD. Dammit". And if not that, it should give him the satisfaction of 'harassing back' everybody who harassed him, plus the community he despises.
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thats such an interesting point if you think about it...
Makes you wonder how blizzard feels half the time while reading the wow forms lol.
Then, design your next game for the exact opposite type of person.
how do you design a td map for a "type" of person? [type referring to what it means in the same context as this case]
I think you misunderstand people in general.
Grade school - Fat kid gets picked last for soccer because he holds the team back.
High school - Lots of people get benched because they hold the team back. Noobs get left out in online games.
Real life - People who can't fight get left out of war because they hold their team back (unless you need fodder).
At no point in life, or human history for that matter, has everybody played nice and everybody gets a medal for trying without somebody putting a gun to their head and forcing them. If it is your goal to restore civility to fellow human beings then you have to force it on them. If you're making a cooperative map then you need to account for bad players. If you don't then bad players will be the fat kid in gym class and nobody will want them because they make winning or even having a fun game impossible.
You covered yourself in chum then jumped into the waters and act surprised when the sharks go crazy. They're sharks, that's what they do. Either live with it or figure out a way to change the situation, ie don't cover yourself in chum and get a shark cage.
Since you have a co-op TD the obvious thing is to track player performance from game to game, or even wave to wave. Make an internal scoring system so that the difficulty adjusts based upon how they performed in previous games or waves. That way if you have 1 person capable of carrying 100 lbs and another who can do 50 lbs then the game gives them 150 so that together they are both still challenged and need to do their best. That could easily be achieved by adjusting spawn rates or mob stats. The important thing to remember with Co-op maps is that one weak link breaks the chain. You will have people of all different skill levels regardless of what community you cater to. Taking that fact into account those bad players will always be shunned and elitism will run rampant unless you take steps to prevent it.
Also, you broke your map and wasted a lot of people's time. Of course they're not happy with you, that should go without saying.
@Foolish_Fool: Go
It was april fools... it wasn't like it was rectified the day after? Come on seriously.... if people can't take a joke once in a while then half the mapmakers would leave... we make maps for fun (the majority of us) and being eaten alive cause of an april fools joke... is just stupid.
@Foolish_Fool:
You missed the point.
It's a TD. How many people do you see go crazy when they they lose a game of Angry Birds? Do they start cussing out everyone around them? I can't join a game without experiencing people yelling at each other.
--
I wasted a bunch of peoples' time? You're looking at it too seriously again. It was a bug and not my intention to destroy towers permanently. It was intended to give players a small freak out, then revive all of their towers at the end of the round. I make one small mistake and everyone freaks out. In any case, I don't want the community that plays the game to be the type that is bothered by stuff like this. A bug where everything explodes is funny to me.
You've probably noticed the sheer amount of awesome explosions in my TD. That's because I think explosions are awesome. When I was little my favorite movie was Independence Day because it had lots of explosions. There's nothing serious or competitive about explosions. Explosions are just awesome. It surprises me even more that people play my map on low settings without HDR (which I use for the majority of the explosion effects). What's the point? I honestly cannot fathom any point at all to playing my map under these conditions.
Why does it have to be a TD, and what do you mean in the first place? You can design anything for anything, from TDs to Disney World rides.
@TheZizz:
I have an appointment with Disney tomorrow concerning the conversion of my TD to a Disney World ride. However, this still doesn't change the fact that the majority of people riding it will still probably be twelve-year-olds.
Are you trolling us by complaining that your map is popular? It feels like every time I come to these forums somebody complains about their maps not being popular.
@Qancakes:
I'm not trolling. I never had trouble making my map popular.
don't make the players this dependent on each other. this removes the I'm a pro your a noob teamplayers
@b0ne123: Go
The whole point of the game is its reliance on team work. If it were more forgiving of players doing their own thing, it wouldn't take an entire month of of playing every day for the average player to beat it.
The difficulty creates replay value and its replay value creates popularity.
I blame the custom game and popularity system for the need to make the map so replayable. If keeping the map on the first 1 or 2 pages didn't depend on players needing to play it over and over again, I could loosen it up to attract an audience with less foot up ass.
thats part of why i enjoy wc3 custom game system where you can give game names in the title to eliminate the weak or the good to give you all a scope and no ragers(just what i think)
but ye maybe they should implement a offline state for sc2 ;P
i know my friend would use it alot
<<quote 298526>>
@Foolish_Fool:You missed the point.
It's a TD.How many people do you see go crazy when they they lose a game of Angry Birds?Do they start cussing out everyone around them?I can't join a game without experiencing people yelling at each other. <</quote>>
You missed the point of mine as well. Anytime you make people work together that is going to happen. We live in a world where soccer moms yell insults across the field and abuse the ref at their child's game. Anytime there is more than one person involved there is a chance it will happen. The more people you have, the more it will happen. That's in real life, put people safely behind their computer and it gets even worse.
You have to look at it from the players perspective, they didn't know it was a bug. From their perspective they were just being jerked around by a bad joke. As for the response, getting negative feedback when you mess up is to be expected. The coliseum games were free as well, but you better believe there would be a riot if the gladiators got stuck in their room. Emperors have been killed for less. The players and community get blamed a lot in online games, but they're just reacting exactly as humans have always done. When you put them in a situation that rewards such behavior it's going to run rampant. It's like complaining that people don't recycle. That behavior isn't going to change until it is in their interest to change. Whether that be incentives, ease of use, or necessity. Standing around complaining about people not recycling or hoping for change won't accomplish anything.
As you pointed out, you have a problem as the developer of making the game difficult enough to be replayable but friendly enough to not cause nerd rage. Problem is that your player base will range widely in skill, so a single, static difficulty level will always fail at one aspect, or at worst both. Without making the map fit the individual player group so there is a good, but not certain chance of defeat, then you either resign your self to encouraging elitism or page 1000.
no one can understand, or predict why/how/when people will get offended. compromising an author's right to publish what s/he pleases goes against everything most free people deem of highest importance.
it was a joke. on april fools day, none-the-less. did anyone rage when the hodrardic cube joke wasn't true? come on, pal.
and i'm not joking here one bit: you are an idiot if you actually believe what you are typing. your username says it all. are you REALLY a foolish fool? or is it a little joke to call yourself that?
if you can't see my point, my humor, or even smile a bit, then i can't help you.
That's all fine and dandy, but just because people oftentimes suck it doesn't mean that we should just 'accept that' and 'not whine about it'? Harassment over something like this is uncalled for. You can't defend the people doing it with the argument "yeah, that's what people do". All Vexal's doing is uttering his frustration with these kind of players and that is well within his rights.
You can understand why, how, and when people get offended. There's no great mystery to people, they're quite simple. It's not that I approve of or agree with what's happening. I'm not even defending them. I'm explaining that this was the only possible outcome. Vexal getting frustrated is natural too, but getting angry at the community isn't going to fix anything. I'm not going to go out and yell at the clouds for blocking my sun. I'm also not going to get mad at people for being idiots. There's no point in complaining about something that was predestined.
I'm one of the few people here actually giving constructive advice on the problem of his community. What I'm saying is that trying to change the people is impossible. One of the few possible alternatives is to change the environment that those people are in, which will influence how they behave. You'll still have the same people, but they won't be nerd raging over every little thing. As for the bug, it's really inconsequential. Yeah they're mad now, but they'll have forgotten within a week.
Personally I think the entire thing is funny from the bug, to the response, to the shock at the response, to the community he despises. Expecting people to behave is expecting far too much so of course you'll be mad and dissapointed when they let you down.
People take a map too seriously. Even if it was a bad joke just message him to change it back. Nobody has to be violent, offensive, or anything negative when asking for something especially when he owes you nothing as the player. So the players are out of line here.
why the hell not??
no you're not. you're doing the classic move of trying to be constructive but you're only faking it to look good. none of the advice you have given is constructive. half of the stuff you spew is classic troll-shrouds-herself-in-pretty-flowers junk we all recognize. your advice is EXACTLY the same thing as saying "just deal with it" or my favorite: "adapt or die". and i think that's pretty close to what vexal was trying to say: just deal/adapt or die.
vexal's post was not begging for constructive criticism. i think it was begging for tolerance of his creative process. if tolerance cannot be summoned, then i think he was saying "bugger off; there are other games to play. life is one of them."
another point you fail to discuss (only because it doesn't fit into your 'con-crit' theme) is that people are breaking the Game-to-RealLife boundary. true, vexal does post his personal information. but that is not an excuse to abuse that.
however, i still feel that he should remove his real life info and make a new facebook page strictly for his map (or multiple maps).
[that one sentence above gave more constructive help than your entire thought process.]
My point was that while a little pessimism isn't bad per se, you're acting as if you should expect people to personally harass you every time you do something you don't like. I really don't think this was 'the only possible outcome'. Anger, sure, but people harassing you whenever you come online? That's some real shit you've got there. Sure, Vexal is 'shouting at the clouds', but hence my constructive advice; show them "who's boss". If he'd shut down his map because of people being assholes, it's not unlikely that at least a couple of them might think "Hey, I yelled at him for doing that lame joke, and now he shut down the entire map - now I can't play my favourite TD. Dammit". And if not that, it should give him the satisfaction of 'harassing back' everybody who harassed him, plus the community he despises.