I was hoping to call upon the experience of sc2mapsters to gain some insight into an important component of launching a map: getting people to play it.
What I'm referring to specifically is the cycle by which a map that gets played has exposure through arcade search rankings and spotlight leading to more people playing it and so on and so forth. Conversely, how does one expect people to start playing a game they've never heard of before?
With a smaller map, this isn't so much an issue: someone can just invite a couple of their friends and enjoy a few games of the map in question. But what about a team-based game that essentially requires 7v7 gameplay for proper balance? Or is that simply the price to pay for the ambition of such a large map?
there are already a few threads asking similar things as this one that you could look through for additional thoughts/ideas.
for large maps i remember seeing advice that was something along the lines of:
enter the game lobby of a popular map with a similar genre to your map (tower defense/ RPG/ 3rd or 1st person shooter, etc.), set everyone in that lobby as your friend, leave the lobby, rinse and repeat until you have a very sizable "friend" list. Then send each person a message asking if they want to try a new kind of (insert genre of your map here) game. If they reply with a yes, invite them to your game. If no, then just keep running down that "friend" list messaging people.
to me, it sounds rather tedious, but it's probably very effective.
You can also take part on mapster's map nights and ask people to play it with you. If they like it they may play it again and tell people about it. Mapster members are a unique player base in that they share better feedback and criticism than most people online, so for a new map a map night is probably a very good start.
Interesting feedback. I'll try the KingRadical idea a few times to see what kind of results that creates. As for Map Night, this would be the event on Saturday at 4PM EST, for NA server, right?
I'll definitely come check it out. Thanks for the tips!
We've also identified a specific segment of gamers as a source of exposure: our mod is an adaptation of an MMORTS called Shattered Galaxy which used to have a large Singaporean playerbase, so we're reaching out to some old acquaintances to get them to try the game in the LAN shops they usually play in. If that happens, that's 10+ players sitting in front of PCs with Sc2 installed on them, all at once...
Wow, that didn't even occur to me. I have no idea how possible this is going to be for our project, but this is precisely the kind of out-of-the-box input I was looking for.
If you want another trick, I personally like "If one team is empty, start a specially designed PvE mode instead".
I use it for Warships and some of my depreciated maps. It only takes a few people playing to get a map onto page 2 (believe it or not), and this is a great way of getting it to page 2.
I was hoping to call upon the experience of sc2mapsters to gain some insight into an important component of launching a map: getting people to play it.
What I'm referring to specifically is the cycle by which a map that gets played has exposure through arcade search rankings and spotlight leading to more people playing it and so on and so forth. Conversely, how does one expect people to start playing a game they've never heard of before?
With a smaller map, this isn't so much an issue: someone can just invite a couple of their friends and enjoy a few games of the map in question. But what about a team-based game that essentially requires 7v7 gameplay for proper balance? Or is that simply the price to pay for the ambition of such a large map?
I'd love to hear anyone's perspective on this.
Getting people to play your game once is one thing. I think by adding something like a stat tracker what ever people will keep coming back. Something like what marine arena is doing with the leveling up etc.
Personally, I like arcade maps which cost an average of around 30 min to finish.
Getting people to play your game once is one thing. I think by adding something like a stat tracker what ever people will keep coming back. Something like what marine arena is doing with the leveling up etc.
Personally, I like arcade maps which cost an average of around 30 min to finish.
Definitely... we've been delaying the implementation of leveling up because more important/core features had to be worked on first, but it seems the lack of any XP/lvling is finally catching up to us. Quick side-question though - how do you guys deal with the bank files and how easy it is to change the values they contain? I've always been reluctant to implement too much continuity-related features because it bums me that people who "hack" their bank files will have an advantage over legit players. Is it just something that's going to happen regardless of how much effort you put into preventing it?
You can protect your bank files; there are basic functions for it in the trigger editor; under "bank". You can also use "Starcode" which is a library which compresses your bank strings and makes them obscure. For me personally; I just use the built in protection method; and then I combine many of my variables into a single string for the bank. for example, if I have 5 different stats, I will save them all as 1 strong separated by spaces. "12 5 3 21 8" each representing the stat value of a hero. This saves a lot of bank space; and when you combine enough of them; it can deter idiots from messing things up.
Anyone who really wants to crack a bank, can and will do it. If you can deter the 99% from doing it, you are doing good enough. If you map becomes number 1; then you can find someone on here willing to create a good system for you in exchange for their name on the map.
Very nice, thanks for the info... Really like the idea of stacking values under a single key too, sounds like a lifesaver if bank size ever becomes an issue. Didn't even know there was a built-in protection function :P
There is, but don't rely on it. There's a free program out there that forges those signatures in seconds.
If you want to make your back as secure as possible, you basically have to bore the hacker into giving up. Someone determined enough will break your file. It's literally impossible to make a secure bank. It's all about throwing obstacles into the works.
Last, but not least, someone can just crack your map and inject code into it, then run it to generate a bank file. This circumvents any and all protection you could possibly ever implement. It's just also the most time-consuming method.
Is hacking of maps to create bank files really such an issue? I cant imagine there beeing more than 1-2 people who seriously would spend time to hack a map to get some item in a custom map they are going to play for 2 days...
Well that, of course, depends entirely on the map. SCU (as an example, I know they're waiting on server-side banks) would be ruined by bank file hackers. Other maps, less so.
Even SCU at this point though.. what is there that can be hacked so badly that it make the game unplayable for others? No games can have trading in them; due to how easy it is to backup your bank before giving away your best stuff. If I hacked SCU to be the max level with the best gear... alright; now what? not play SCU anymore?
For the most part; if someone is going to hack their bank; they are not going to be playing the game for very long. I really think it is a non-issue for the most part; in any game. Using the basic protection will deter 99.9% of people. Anyone who puts the hours into messing up their own game file; clearly would rather be not playing your game anyway.
I am a little concerned for server side banks. I have to assume there will be a max bank size limit? What happens if any bank is corrupted for any reason ever? is blizzard gonna take the heat for it? It seems like a huge pain in the ass for blizzard, with almost no return on their investment.
I am not trying to tinfoil hat it; but files can become corrupt. If someone crashes while it is saving a long list of things. I dont know. There is always a slim chance of something happening; even if it is the map authors fault. I would be willing to take bets that blizzard would take the blame at some point. I mean, look around the forum at how many times blizzard has been blamed for corrupt banks (Ive seen a few) already.
Also, will size limit be an issue? For most competent mappers, strings are combined and condensed. Allowing them to be server side might make a newer editor save 10,000 variables into 10,000 separate parts; not understand that the markup per field is like 25 characters. From my understanding; players can drop out of the game during loading if the combined bank files are too large that it takes the player too long to load.
I am all for server side banks; in full support; I would really REALLY like them, for my project... I am just wondering how high up on the list they will put this; as it seems like a huge time dump and resource dump for blizzard; while gaining very little in return. Trading will be a thing. Only in super-awesome games would the safty factor matter at all. No game that exists right now would fail miserably if a couple of people managed to hack themselves to glory. Editors have come up with dozens of ways, as said above "to bore a hacker".
IMO to trade is, terrabytes of hard drive space on severs that are constantly running to get that information to the players; and all of the work put into creating and setting up such a support system; while taking the blame for any problems. VS trading in RPG style games, and not requiring editors to protect their own content.
I think it would be a much better show of support than this contest; but the number of editors helped compared to what they will gain in return; just a rough ratio.
Hey, so I know this is a long shot because you guys are mostly just having a conversation about bank protection, but we're having a scheduled session of PoC on Sunday night at 8PM EST, and even just one or two of you guys can make a big difference in filling the game at 7v7, which makes all the difference in the world to us.
If you happen to be online at that time, contact Peaches#533 and we'll get you in. Even better is if you come 15 minutes early and hop on Teamspeak, and we can explain the concept quick fast.
IS this a 7v7 army based king of the hill map, or what? That is what it looked like by the screen shots. Are the units customized, or are they still based around their sc2 stats? Are counters stiff (like sc2) or are they soft? I guess this isnt the place to ask. Your facebook event for it doesn't really show information about the game.
On the contrary, this is as good a place as any! Phvlad and I are glad to answer any questions you may have.
There is more information about the game on our main thread here.
As for your specific questions :
The game can be compared to a mix of Battlefield and Starcraft. You use squads of 6-12 units to capture "Points of Contention" (small areas on the map) to make the other team's points drop. Team with the most points win.
Point of Contention rewards a mix of good teamwork, decision making and micro, in that order. Good micro will help you during your skirmishes, but picking the right objectives to skirmish for is more important. Finally, a team with good communication and coordination will seldom lose against uncoordinated players.
Every unit is custom-made, and is completely unrelated to anything in Starcraft 2. For example, the "banshees" you see are actually called Owls and are a staple AA unit that prioritizes toughness over speed. Yeah, people who play SC2 a lot are usually a bit confused the first time they play it but everyone quickly ends up used to it :P
Some units behave completely differently from anything that exists in Starcraft 2. For example, Arbalests are artillery units that need to rotate towards the desired target before firing. War Pigeons are Air-to-Ground bombers that can carpet bomb the units below. We're at 40 units right now, we expect to have around 60 units when all is said and done.
Counters are a mix of soft and stiff. Take for example the War Pigeons mentioned above : since they are usually slow and have very little in the way of HP/armor, they are soft-countered by pretty much anything that attacks air. Because War Pigeons are usually stacked one above another in order to deliver optimal damage, they are hard-countered by AoE AA, like Phoenixes (AA units with flamethrowers as weapons). On the other hand, War Pigeons are one of units with the highest damage in the game, so they are extremely useful when you need to dish out the most damage in a short time window.
Even back when we only had 5-6 units, the only way to actually test the game was to play it so we've always attempted to keep it balanced.
If you're curious, there's a gameplay video of a recent 6v6 fight !
I was hoping to call upon the experience of sc2mapsters to gain some insight into an important component of launching a map: getting people to play it.
What I'm referring to specifically is the cycle by which a map that gets played has exposure through arcade search rankings and spotlight leading to more people playing it and so on and so forth. Conversely, how does one expect people to start playing a game they've never heard of before?
With a smaller map, this isn't so much an issue: someone can just invite a couple of their friends and enjoy a few games of the map in question. But what about a team-based game that essentially requires 7v7 gameplay for proper balance? Or is that simply the price to pay for the ambition of such a large map?
I'd love to hear anyone's perspective on this.
there are already a few threads asking similar things as this one that you could look through for additional thoughts/ideas.
for large maps i remember seeing advice that was something along the lines of:
enter the game lobby of a popular map with a similar genre to your map (tower defense/ RPG/ 3rd or 1st person shooter, etc.), set everyone in that lobby as your friend, leave the lobby, rinse and repeat until you have a very sizable "friend" list. Then send each person a message asking if they want to try a new kind of (insert genre of your map here) game. If they reply with a yes, invite them to your game. If no, then just keep running down that "friend" list messaging people.
to me, it sounds rather tedious, but it's probably very effective.
You can also take part on mapster's map nights and ask people to play it with you. If they like it they may play it again and tell people about it. Mapster members are a unique player base in that they share better feedback and criticism than most people online, so for a new map a map night is probably a very good start.
Interesting feedback. I'll try the KingRadical idea a few times to see what kind of results that creates. As for Map Night, this would be the event on Saturday at 4PM EST, for NA server, right?
I'll definitely come check it out. Thanks for the tips!
We've also identified a specific segment of gamers as a source of exposure: our mod is an adaptation of an MMORTS called Shattered Galaxy which used to have a large Singaporean playerbase, so we're reaching out to some old acquaintances to get them to try the game in the LAN shops they usually play in. If that happens, that's 10+ players sitting in front of PCs with Sc2 installed on them, all at once...
It'll take some work, but adding a competent AI is by far the easiest way to ensure that your map gets played despite large lobbies.
Wow, that didn't even occur to me. I have no idea how possible this is going to be for our project, but this is precisely the kind of out-of-the-box input I was looking for.
Hah, you're welcome.
If you want another trick, I personally like "If one team is empty, start a specially designed PvE mode instead".
I use it for Warships and some of my depreciated maps. It only takes a few people playing to get a map onto page 2 (believe it or not), and this is a great way of getting it to page 2.
Getting people to play your game once is one thing. I think by adding something like a stat tracker what ever people will keep coming back. Something like what marine arena is doing with the leveling up etc.
Personally, I like arcade maps which cost an average of around 30 min to finish.
Definitely... we've been delaying the implementation of leveling up because more important/core features had to be worked on first, but it seems the lack of any XP/lvling is finally catching up to us. Quick side-question though - how do you guys deal with the bank files and how easy it is to change the values they contain? I've always been reluctant to implement too much continuity-related features because it bums me that people who "hack" their bank files will have an advantage over legit players. Is it just something that's going to happen regardless of how much effort you put into preventing it?
You can protect your bank files; there are basic functions for it in the trigger editor; under "bank". You can also use "Starcode" which is a library which compresses your bank strings and makes them obscure. For me personally; I just use the built in protection method; and then I combine many of my variables into a single string for the bank. for example, if I have 5 different stats, I will save them all as 1 strong separated by spaces. "12 5 3 21 8" each representing the stat value of a hero. This saves a lot of bank space; and when you combine enough of them; it can deter idiots from messing things up.
Anyone who really wants to crack a bank, can and will do it. If you can deter the 99% from doing it, you are doing good enough. If you map becomes number 1; then you can find someone on here willing to create a good system for you in exchange for their name on the map.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
Very nice, thanks for the info... Really like the idea of stacking values under a single key too, sounds like a lifesaver if bank size ever becomes an issue. Didn't even know there was a built-in protection function :P
There is, but don't rely on it. There's a free program out there that forges those signatures in seconds.
If you want to make your back as secure as possible, you basically have to bore the hacker into giving up. Someone determined enough will break your file. It's literally impossible to make a secure bank. It's all about throwing obstacles into the works.
Last, but not least, someone can just crack your map and inject code into it, then run it to generate a bank file. This circumvents any and all protection you could possibly ever implement. It's just also the most time-consuming method.
Is hacking of maps to create bank files really such an issue? I cant imagine there beeing more than 1-2 people who seriously would spend time to hack a map to get some item in a custom map they are going to play for 2 days...
@Crainy: Go
Well that, of course, depends entirely on the map. SCU (as an example, I know they're waiting on server-side banks) would be ruined by bank file hackers. Other maps, less so.
Even SCU at this point though.. what is there that can be hacked so badly that it make the game unplayable for others? No games can have trading in them; due to how easy it is to backup your bank before giving away your best stuff. If I hacked SCU to be the max level with the best gear... alright; now what? not play SCU anymore?
For the most part; if someone is going to hack their bank; they are not going to be playing the game for very long. I really think it is a non-issue for the most part; in any game. Using the basic protection will deter 99.9% of people. Anyone who puts the hours into messing up their own game file; clearly would rather be not playing your game anyway.
I am a little concerned for server side banks. I have to assume there will be a max bank size limit? What happens if any bank is corrupted for any reason ever? is blizzard gonna take the heat for it? It seems like a huge pain in the ass for blizzard, with almost no return on their investment.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
@GlornII: Go
You'd be surprised how much someone hacking their way to loot can ruin it for everyone else. Read up on what happened with GTA V online.
Also I don't see why there's any reason to think that server-side bank files would become corrupted.
I am not trying to tinfoil hat it; but files can become corrupt. If someone crashes while it is saving a long list of things. I dont know. There is always a slim chance of something happening; even if it is the map authors fault. I would be willing to take bets that blizzard would take the blame at some point. I mean, look around the forum at how many times blizzard has been blamed for corrupt banks (Ive seen a few) already.
Also, will size limit be an issue? For most competent mappers, strings are combined and condensed. Allowing them to be server side might make a newer editor save 10,000 variables into 10,000 separate parts; not understand that the markup per field is like 25 characters. From my understanding; players can drop out of the game during loading if the combined bank files are too large that it takes the player too long to load.
I am all for server side banks; in full support; I would really REALLY like them, for my project... I am just wondering how high up on the list they will put this; as it seems like a huge time dump and resource dump for blizzard; while gaining very little in return. Trading will be a thing. Only in super-awesome games would the safty factor matter at all. No game that exists right now would fail miserably if a couple of people managed to hack themselves to glory. Editors have come up with dozens of ways, as said above "to bore a hacker".
IMO to trade is, terrabytes of hard drive space on severs that are constantly running to get that information to the players; and all of the work put into creating and setting up such a support system; while taking the blame for any problems. VS trading in RPG style games, and not requiring editors to protect their own content.
I think it would be a much better show of support than this contest; but the number of editors helped compared to what they will gain in return; just a rough ratio.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
Hey, so I know this is a long shot because you guys are mostly just having a conversation about bank protection, but we're having a scheduled session of PoC on Sunday night at 8PM EST, and even just one or two of you guys can make a big difference in filling the game at 7v7, which makes all the difference in the world to us.
If you happen to be online at that time, contact Peaches#533 and we'll get you in. Even better is if you come 15 minutes early and hop on Teamspeak, and we can explain the concept quick fast.
Hope to see you there!
IS this a 7v7 army based king of the hill map, or what? That is what it looked like by the screen shots. Are the units customized, or are they still based around their sc2 stats? Are counters stiff (like sc2) or are they soft? I guess this isnt the place to ask. Your facebook event for it doesn't really show information about the game.
Skype: [email protected] Current Project: Custom Hero Arena! US: battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/263274 EU: battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/186418
On the contrary, this is as good a place as any! Phvlad and I are glad to answer any questions you may have.
There is more information about the game on our main thread here.
As for your specific questions :
Even back when we only had 5-6 units, the only way to actually test the game was to play it so we've always attempted to keep it balanced.
If you're curious, there's a gameplay video of a recent 6v6 fight !