So blizzard is the Evil? Ok HotS singleplayer is bad, but think about it, the core of the Game is 1v1, people today are "AI is for N00BS!" "Go TO pLaY 1v1 oR yOU aRe a n00b..." I found dozens of retarded on 2010 that whatching on my profile said "omg don't do 4v4, do 1v1 noob" poor 8 years old retarded...
C'mon soul, i didn't say you are not a serious player 'cause you don't have high APMs, me and Delta are saying that people like Husky don't take the Game seriously because they are using a hand on mouse, ass on the keyboard and play without tactic or a minimum of Game sense, if you think about versus AI games doesn't need much APM, i used to use from 70 to 90 APM vs AI, also 60 or 55 if i am on relax time
@DEFILERRULEZ: Go Still Husky is diamond as far as I know, and I'm bronze, what does that make me then? Who cares about how he plays? It's all this SC2 culture that pros are players and everyone else is useless. That's what I don't like. This thread was for LotV discussion, so mainly a campaign discussion, still it seems some people think I'd have to click like a Korean to beat brutal diffculty. If you're going to balance brutal around 10% top players than the game isn't for me.
I think Brutal should live up to its name, but not be something only a very small percent of the playerbase can beat. Something along the lines of WoL (or slightly harder/easier) would be fine, imo.
(Thumbs up for "Click every target on the screen (0/5000)" objective. :P)
First i was talking about his campaign playtrough, that are ugly.
Second APM doesn't matter until you reach higher leagues
third Please don't start the discussion of "i am better/most serious at this Game than everyone", if you want to do it, join sc2 forum and merge the troll/flames that populate the forums (90% of it are troll we all know it)
About the allied AI in campaign: I can see how that could work for a single mission as a gimmick, like all of the missions so far had their gimmick.
I'm working on a co-op campaign myself and its a bit frustrating how much of the story I have to compromise in order to make the gameplay work for two players. ... then it dawned on me that this is the huge difference between sc1/wc3 and sc2. The missions in sc1/wc3 were build around the story; in sc2 the story is made up around the missions. The only exceptions are the first and last couple of missions of each campaign.
I hope the missions in LotV are build around the story.
There's a difference between 'easy' and 'too hard'. Let me help you guys out here. What Soulfilcher is saying is that, for example, 'Casual' should be completeable by 100% of the people who try it, 'Normal' by 80-90%, 'Hard' by 60-70% and Brutal by '40-50%'. WoL has about those ratio's, from what I've seen. If you're one of the people calling WoL Brutal "easy" you're in the 20%, cause really - it isn't "easy" by any means. It would be nice if LotV had similar ratio's, which worked rather well overall.
In other words, have the AI play just like in Red Alert 3? Thank you, but I'll pass that.
To be fair, RA3 was built for co-op in mind so naturally in SP it played out the way it did; a co-commander that was either useless and needed babysitting or steamrolled and did the mission for you with a few smart commands issued.
Now, if you talk about an AI whom participates in Build and Destroy missions (Play ACTIVE, not like the mess they did with Terrans in the HotS last mission), whom builds, expands to new sites, expands production, upgrades, masses waves and varies attack paths, THEN and only then, we'll be talking business. Otherwise, it's all just pre-scripted gimmicks all over again... Sorry, but I must say it.
I'm actually a bit disappointed that blizz wouldn't bother adapting their melee AI with a few adjustments into the campaign. I'd love to see something like Eye of the Storm from the original SC1 with an AI ally controlling the Terrans instead of you managing two simultaneously (which wasn't particularly fun with SC1's clunky UI).
The problem is that it would require Blizz to change many, many things about how the enemy AI's unit waves are built, which could break the balance of some missions or detract from the original design too much. Having two melee AIs bashing each other in a campaign mission with a few token forces directed towards you would be sort of redundant and basically make LotV have the same issues as RA3.
And here it is a scheme of one years ago of what i think about think about brutal sc2 mission ( too lazy to type all ) ( for hard i mean mission that force you to be carefull of what you are doing or you lose )
Be sure to check out the extension mod: Hots Custom Map support on NA and EU, Despite the name it greatly expands the roster of options for the default 3 races and is updated all the way to NCO.
I like scenarios that are impossible but not unbeatable. There are key points during the scenario which if the player can succeed in building up from, will allow him to win the scenario. Sort of a puzzle thing, or a run through the game 10 times to get it right.
One aspect of difficulty could simply be variations in the attack direction and composition of the AI. Say something like this:
Easy - Attacks come from north. No expansion. Player is free to take expansions adding 200% of his available resources to complete the mission.
Brutal - Attacks come from all direction, including air drops, or air attack. AI uses spells. Expands to threaten the player not having enough resources to both fend off attacks and do a siege/counter-attack.
The player is therefore required to reduce casualties, use spells/abilities of his own, etc. Spells, units, specific builds to counter enemy compositions at 90% efficiency would get the player to a 4:3 ratio at winning.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
lol its not how fast u click its just how you click. my apm is like 60 and i beat wol and hots on brutal. if u look at high apm u see alot of just spam clicking.
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So blizzard is the Evil? Ok HotS singleplayer is bad, but think about it, the core of the Game is 1v1, people today are "AI is for N00BS!" "Go TO pLaY 1v1 oR yOU aRe a n00b..." I found dozens of retarded on 2010 that whatching on my profile said "omg don't do 4v4, do 1v1 noob" poor 8 years old retarded...
C'mon soul, i didn't say you are not a serious player 'cause you don't have high APMs, me and Delta are saying that people like Husky don't take the Game seriously because they are using a hand on mouse, ass on the keyboard and play without tactic or a minimum of Game sense, if you think about versus AI games doesn't need much APM, i used to use from 70 to 90 APM vs AI, also 60 or 55 if i am on relax time
@SoulFilcher: Go
Whoa, sorry dude, I didn't mean to offend people here just because of low APM.
I'm more serious of a gamer than you though, Delta. And I prolly have more APM than anyone here. haha
[insert trololol image]
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
I'm the most serious gamer goddamit. Just like my mom told me I would, I'll win this e-peen contest. 9000 APM consistantly 360 noscope bitchez
@DEFILERRULEZ: Go Still Husky is diamond as far as I know, and I'm bronze, what does that make me then? Who cares about how he plays? It's all this SC2 culture that pros are players and everyone else is useless. That's what I don't like. This thread was for LotV discussion, so mainly a campaign discussion, still it seems some people think I'd have to click like a Korean to beat brutal diffculty. If you're going to balance brutal around 10% top players than the game isn't for me.
I think Brutal should live up to its name, but not be something only a very small percent of the playerbase can beat. Something along the lines of WoL (or slightly harder/easier) would be fine, imo.
(Thumbs up for "Click every target on the screen (0/5000)" objective. :P)
@SoulFilcher: Go
First i was talking about his campaign playtrough, that are ugly.
@DEFILERRULEZ: Go
About the allied AI in campaign: I can see how that could work for a single mission as a gimmick, like all of the missions so far had their gimmick.
I'm working on a co-op campaign myself and its a bit frustrating how much of the story I have to compromise in order to make the gameplay work for two players. ... then it dawned on me that this is the huge difference between sc1/wc3 and sc2. The missions in sc1/wc3 were build around the story; in sc2 the story is made up around the missions. The only exceptions are the first and last couple of missions of each campaign.
I hope the missions in LotV are build around the story.
@OutsiderXE: Go
I see. Clearly now.
There's a difference between 'easy' and 'too hard'. Let me help you guys out here. What Soulfilcher is saying is that, for example, 'Casual' should be completeable by 100% of the people who try it, 'Normal' by 80-90%, 'Hard' by 60-70% and Brutal by '40-50%'. WoL has about those ratio's, from what I've seen. If you're one of the people calling WoL Brutal "easy" you're in the 20%, cause really - it isn't "easy" by any means. It would be nice if LotV had similar ratio's, which worked rather well overall.
To be fair, RA3 was built for co-op in mind so naturally in SP it played out the way it did; a co-commander that was either useless and needed babysitting or steamrolled and did the mission for you with a few smart commands issued.
I'm actually a bit disappointed that blizz wouldn't bother adapting their melee AI with a few adjustments into the campaign. I'd love to see something like Eye of the Storm from the original SC1 with an AI ally controlling the Terrans instead of you managing two simultaneously (which wasn't particularly fun with SC1's clunky UI).
The problem is that it would require Blizz to change many, many things about how the enemy AI's unit waves are built, which could break the balance of some missions or detract from the original design too much. Having two melee AIs bashing each other in a campaign mission with a few token forces directed towards you would be sort of redundant and basically make LotV have the same issues as RA3.
@Mozared: Go Thank for taking the time to explain that clearly.
I have 135/140 apms while i play multiplayer , and i still make custom melee maps : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435711 Does that count ?
I don't want an impossible brutal, something defeatable by 30-40% people.
And here it is a scheme of one years ago of what i think about think about brutal sc2 mission ( too lazy to type all ) ( for hard i mean mission that force you to be carefull of what you are doing or you lose )
Epic thread http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10786718797
@SoulFilcher: Go
agree
http://www.sc2mapster.com/assets/nolanstars-textures/
Be sure to check out the extension mod: Hots Custom Map support on NA and EU, Despite the name it greatly expands the roster of options for the default 3 races and is updated all the way to NCO.
I like scenarios that are impossible but not unbeatable. There are key points during the scenario which if the player can succeed in building up from, will allow him to win the scenario. Sort of a puzzle thing, or a run through the game 10 times to get it right.
One aspect of difficulty could simply be variations in the attack direction and composition of the AI. Say something like this:
Easy - Attacks come from north. No expansion. Player is free to take expansions adding 200% of his available resources to complete the mission. Brutal - Attacks come from all direction, including air drops, or air attack. AI uses spells. Expands to threaten the player not having enough resources to both fend off attacks and do a siege/counter-attack.
The player is therefore required to reduce casualties, use spells/abilities of his own, etc. Spells, units, specific builds to counter enemy compositions at 90% efficiency would get the player to a 4:3 ratio at winning.
Whatever you do, wholeheartedly, moment by heartfelt moment, becomes a tool for the expression of your very soul.
lol its not how fast u click its just how you click. my apm is like 60 and i beat wol and hots on brutal. if u look at high apm u see alot of just spam clicking.